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+--- Thread: Should ACCA be allowed public practice in Pakistan (/showthread.php?tid=4377)
- Muhammad Amir - 04-14-2007
Mr Kamran ACA your professional exposure is much much greater then me their is no doubt init but you said
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Most of the times, I receive the reply, "CA is very difficult". Sometimes I get the answer, "I will do CA after doing ACCA." and sometimes, the reply is found to be very much disturbing, "I tried for CA but could not get through the first exam despite of so many attempts. Therefore, now I am doing ACCA".
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CA is not at all difficult "WHY?" because those of subjects studied by CAs are not equivallent to ACCA?????? ACCAs do 2.4 Financial Management and Control.....2.5 Financial Reporting...3.1 Audit and Assurance....3.4"Business Information Management" ....3.5 Business Analysis....3.6 Corporate Reporting....3.7 Strategic Financial Management.....but can you even quote here any subjects like these in whole CA .....CAs study F18 Management Accounting and i was ammazed by this subject when lot of course of F18 i did when attempting paper T7 Planning Control and Performance Management of CAT......be positive please i am not critique of ICAP but see it without any prejudice...there are 3 law papers in CA first in Module B "Mercantile Law" second in Module D "Company Law" and third in Module E "Corporate Law" is their any reason behind it....only ICAP is the body which offers 3 law papers.....instead ACCAs cover all in 2.2 Corporate and Business Law very comprehansively....this is what my teacher said and he is also teaching all law papers of CA...
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I have a trainee who is a qualified ACCA and who started ACCA becoz he failed doing CA after so many times attempting.
I also have a CA student who is ACCA qualified and he qualified ACCA final in first attempt in the age of 20 years. But he is struggling in CA and succeeded in getting only 2 permanent credits in module E despite of two attempts.
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ACCA student failed in CA....why??because of ICAP's policies not any other reason...otherwise this wouldn't be happen...i saw Module E and F students uses ACCA's part 3 books i saw this in ICAP's library....One thing which i closely observed that ICAP's policies are designed in such a way which always try to resist other quality institutes....even lot of ICAPins think that ICAPs papers and passing criteris are most difficult in world .....absolutly wrong its not ICAP yes Its ICAS(Institute of Chartered Accountants in Scotland)yes ICAS is having most tough criteria and papers in IFAC member bodies....why ICAP people are so offensive on ACCAs this is what i always try to asl from lot of ACAs and FCAs but no one give me an authentic reply and even some of FCAs expressly say that yes ICAP policies are more othodox and rigid which need to change....another criticism on ICAP of lot of others is that they are still providing GUPTA and SHUKLA standard accountancy.....don't you think were these books are enough to cope with the more dynamic environment of today's accountancy...they are simply obsolete books which must be banned fot study purposes at least in pakistan...I am just disclosing facts here...i am much junior then you infact i am in part 2 and just only of 20...but you as per your records are an ACA...could you give me answer of all questions
Another thing which i want to adress to here all ACCA students that
why you people always think you very small (Gira hoay) as compare to others... and lot of fools started doing ACCA as route to other qualifications...these are the people who devalue ACCA...why don't you people understand that ACCA has its own prestigious value...its a full fledge qualification no need any type of other qualifications...yes i know that this era is of mutiple qualifications .yes no doubt...but the word multi here means that always try to go for something greater then previous one as ACCAs should go for CMA(IMA),CFA,CIA,CPA an others why ACCAs think to go for CA or etc.......i request to all ACCA students that please don't devalue you and your professional body...
And it is the fact that whether it is ACCA, CA, CMA, CFA or any thing these qualificationa only make you entered in Interview Rooms and inside the interview room its you your skills your professional exposure, your personality who gives you amouts to you...not CA or ACCA i know an example that in one of the company ACCA is earning more then an ACA...why??? because ACCA had proved himself as more competent then ACA....and after all earning is upto your luck(Qismat) so don't start confrontation with your luck always be very pleased humble to whatever you have which lot of people don't have always try to see people below then your level not upper then you and always say "ALHAMDULLILAAH" and say thanks to ALLAH(S.W.T)........I ALSO SAY ALHAMDOLLILAH "THANK YOU MY ALLAH(S.W.T)"
- kamranACA - 04-14-2007
Dear Amir,
I have not criticised the curriculum of ACCA. I, in some of my other posts said that yes ACCA curriculum is well designed and off course all professionals can get benefit from each others' developments and researchs. However, on the other hand I do not regard ACCAs equal to CAs, all over the world and specially in Pakistan, for my personal reasons. It is not a biase, I confirm. Further, I strictly object on giving ACCAs permission to start practice like CAs in Pakistan. This is solely my personal view and it may be right or wrong in some one other's opinion.
At the same time I also recommend ACCAs to prove theirselves in practice through altrenative means.
I agree that ICAP exams are difficult to get through. The reasons might be the same as you have pointed out, although I dont agree with it. In my view, ACCA started making its place in early 90s in Pakistan, while ICAP was established in 1961. This is substantiated by the fact that a very fewer ACCAs are working in Pakistan solely on the basis of ACCA qualification. If some ACCA is also an ACA, I regard him ACA and not ACCA, for such an analysis. Off course ICAP may have so many reasons to give ACCA a tough time. Tough time is not a thing to be criticised. In my view it gives an impetus to work hard and fight back to make some one's own place in a given culture. ACCAs should take this tough time positively and work hard to prove theirselves in Pakistan. I dont talk about any foreign country.
It would be ridiculous that some one does no do anything practically and starts criticising ICAP. While all my ACCA brothers have an oppurtunity to get into the advisory and consultancy businesses, why they dont bother to do it. They should come up in the practical field and prove theirselves. I agree that in initial days there would be lesser chances for them to groom in a set up where ICAP retains all the powers. But certainly, knowledge cannot be defeated. If you ACCAs are upto it, you will Inshallah succeed one day. Let your efforts be put in the practical field. I know some CFAs and qualified Corporate Secratries who have established their professional businesses and are working very well. Yesterday I received a letter from Karachi, some CFAs are managing and introducing new capital market business/investment oppurtunities (through establishing the funds). I appreciate their efforts. Every one should come up with his knowledge and expertise. It is an open market. Get into it and face your risks and rewards.
Despite whatever views I personally have for ACCA (which are also more specifically Pakistan focussed), I dont disregard their curriculum. I know so many ICAP students study the books of ACCA and CIMA. I also studied CIMA's book on Financial Reporting for clearing my concepts on consolidation of financial statements some way back in 1999-2000. The main reason behind is lack of research work in Pakistan. What you have written about the books of Shukla and Gupta, I partially agree with it. I entered CA after doing B.Com. I know the books of Shukla and Gupta are very much helpful in understanding the double entry accounting system. These provide basic knowledge of accounting from a journal entry to general ledger and trial balance. Practically speaking, these books provide book-keeping knowledge instead of more refined accountancy knowledge. There are various phases of knowledge buidling and for that I dont find reasons for objection on these books. These are the people who have done marvellous jobs for students of earlier days. We should not reject their sincere efforts. However, I agree that these dont cater the new accounting frameworks based upon IFRSs and other pronouncements simply because these developments have been made subsequently. You must keep in mind that by simply going on to IFRSs or other international pronouncements, one might develope a good data bank and speaking knowledge but for real technical knowledge, these books need to be considered. The most advanced "West" did not forget the work of SPICER PEGGLER, COLLIN DRURY, MATZ USRY and WILLIAM PICKLES. (there might be some mistake in spellings of names). They still quote their conclusions in their research works.
However, in my CA Inter, I studies William Pickles. It is a very nice book.
Now, the matter of earning of an ACCA more than CA. I know this can happen and it may or may not depend upon more competency of ACCA than CA. As you have discussed that personal abilities count. I agree with it. That CA might have lesser personal capabilities. But I point out that this way competency may not be judged at country level.
If you have to do it, you will have to analyse all the data because rare cases are not an example.
I know one thing that is a fact. I so many times receive calls from clients and non-clients to refer them some professional for their financial or accounting management. They tell me the expected compensation package of 100,000 plus for CA with 2 or 3 years experience along with 1300 cc car. {I dont have a doubt that so many CAs are earning even more than one million per month in Pakistan, but I am talking about the fresh one's having two years exposure}. If you can believe me, I never heard any demand for ACCA from any of such clients or non-clients. These clients are not affected by the whatever role ICAP is playing. The entraprenures are normally foreign qualified MBAs. But they never demanded ACCA for such vacant posts with them.
However, in so many government based advertised jobs, ACA/ACMA/ACCA appears to be mentioned despite the fact that government jobs might be ICAP influenced. However, in my view, such jobs are mainly occupied by ACMAs because CAs dont opt such jobs due to lesser remunerations and exposure for such jobs.
Again, this does snot necessarily grant ACCA to be much lesser than CA. In my view, this happens because ACCA is neoborn as compared to CA, at least in Pakistan.
So, my dear Amir, instead of getting offensive or showing anger for ICAP or its members, you ACCAs should try to prove your selves. Number crunchers are criticised but in this case number crunching will prove the acceptability of ACCAs in Pakistan.
Best regards,
Kamran.
- Schuaeb - 04-14-2007
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[quote][In contrast to you, some people dont like to see the members to be active on this forum. They have objection that why and how a Chartered Accountant having a good practice can manage his time to place 10 or more posts in lesser than a month. They dont know that I always work this way in all my assignments. This depends upon a person that how he schedules and manages his work. Where a guy spends 10 minutes only in smoking at his office, i can post three messages on this forum in such a time. Just after 25 minutes I have to attend a metting with CEO of a client company and I am posting this msg. Because I have worked to cater the needs of my meeting and I am confident about it. Anyways. Baseless objections cannot hinder my work and alter my style.
I dont impose my ideas on others. But in my view, one should do CA preferably in Pakistan, if he/she supposes that he/she can do it.]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Having said that I really didn't mean all that very much seriously while writing that and even appologizing if my post was mistaken, I am receiving such comments. You must have an idea that your contributions are worthy for this forum and we like to have members like you here, so no explanations are required regarding those 100 posts. To tell you further, I am a student getting articles and don't have much indepth knowledge of things as yours. Having made four time as much posts as yours is there any point in objecting your 100 worthy posts. The member having maximum posts on this forum (1400+)Pracs is also a qualified person. So number of posts is no issue, only they got to have some concrete and correct information and lesser self praise (just kidding)
Where a guy spends 10 minutes only in smoking at his office, i can post three messages on this forum in such a time. Just after 25 minutes I have to attend a metting with CEO of a client company and I am posting this msg. Because I have worked to cater the needs of my meeting and I am confident about it. Anyways. Baseless objections cannot hinder my work and alter my style. So this is to tell that you are very efficient.
Sincerely,
Shoaib (Would-be FCA)
- kamranACA - 04-14-2007
Thank you for your clarification.
You would also be very much efficient, once you would get the qualifications. Circumstances will make to behave this way.
I am not involved in self praising. I always said that I dont feel my contribution is so good for this forum. I am a very humble creature of my God.
One thing, every body when advising the other, faithfully feels that his info is concrete. I personally believe in it. Otherwise I dont make an effort to advise the others. I never objceted on your advices to others. The matter was of imposing my ideas on others. I understand that one must not take decision merely on others advices. Rather he should use his mind as well and take the responsibility of his decision. However, this was an allegation from you.
And, you could not prove it so far.
I dont have any grouse and being a CA student and muslim you are my brother.
May Allah bless you.
Regards,
Kamran.
- Muhammad Amir - 04-14-2007
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I confirm. Further, I strictly object on giving ACCAs permission to start practice like CAs in Pakistan. This is solely my personal view and it may be right or wrong in some one other's opinion. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Actually Only Audit Practice License is not a matter for ACCAs because ACCAs are already having Audit Rights in More then 73 countries...my dear brother i don't know why you are extra ordinarly advocating ICAP(merely because you are a member of ICAP)..but don't you think that Whether ACCA or ACA we pakistanis facing lot of difficulties to polish our professionalism skills we only try to restrict ourselves to tution providers to spoon feeding of teachers instead to research at our own isn't it a big question mark that always we try to be specific to our thoughts....i mean if ACA is that better then ACCA so why ICAP's market is diminishing day by day.....why ACCA has got more exposure in potiential employers, companies(Specially investment)...i heared from one of my friend who is currently in Module E ...he gave me advice not to go for articles in any BIG4 audit firm because its useless to you just because you will not be able to carry out audit practise in pakistan instead you should go towards management side like traesury management, and other financial investing sectors,,,i asked him that ok....we ACCAs will not hopefully be gratnted practise license in pakistan ...but tell me onething that if a person who is ACCA-affiliate(No 3 years work experiance)...trys to go for ICAEW what remains next...i mean do these presumptions of ICAP students were ethical...yes thats fact that generally CAs are earning more then ACCAs .... can you ever think why?? i thought that i conclude that just because of lack of professionalism in them...isn't it....lets think if I being an ACCA(Member) go to an employer who has a package of 100,000 for this vacancy plus a CULTUS.....And i speak their core urdu....and when he asked me that what is this ACCA...i tell him that It is world's fastest and largest growing accountancy body situated in UK....when i say UK he was ammazed and asked me that really ACCA is UK based qualification...i say yes no doubt...then he replies me that OK ACCA IS UK BASED QUALIFICATION AND YOU EVEN NOT ABLE TO USE PROPER LANGAUGE HERE AND YOU ACSENT WAS NOT EVEN IMPRESSED ME TO OFFER YOU SUCH JOB..........................what is this ...my dear brother this is a real problem of ACCAs they know far much more then others but they can't make them as prosper as they should....i know the cricullum of LUMS and IBA their finance course is just over our 1.2 and under 2.4......but they are regarded as higher then others why?? because they know how to sell them they know the manners of presentation they know about ethics of meetings....but ACCAs know much about financial world but merely at the expense of their professional groom...and infact the same problem is of ACAs but don't you think that there must be in both ACCA or CA a course merely related to professional grooming of students and future entreprenres .....this is what i also advised to ACCA but they i think not take it in account otherwise they will introduce some subject regarding it in new ACCA qualifications which will be changed in DECEMBER 2007,...... I don't know about whom pointed for this number crunching but if you pointed ACCAs being clerk accountants then what you think about you own ICAPs...i am not against ICAP because my most respectfull teachers belong to ICAP and i am not angry on ICAP ... but offcourse their policies make me to anger....YES YOUR LAST POINT THAT WHY NOT YOU ACCAs PROVE YOURSELVES AS BEING MORE THEN ACAs I MUST SAY THAT IT HAD ALREADY PROVED AND INSHALLAH I WILL INSHALLAH PROVE THIS AT MY OWN INSHAALLAH...BECAUSE THEIR IS LOT TO BE DISCLOSED IN PUBLIC REGARDING THESE MONEY MAKING TUTION PROVIDERS WHAT IS THEIR COUNSELLING THEY ALWAYS MISLEAD STUDENTS AND THEIR PARENTS BY GUIDING THEM THEM HOW TO MAKE MORE AND MORE MONEY IN JUST A FEW TIME...HOW TO GET 10s OF QULAIFICATIONS POST YOUR NAME IN MINIMUM TIME....THEY ARE TOTALLY MISLEADING STUDENTS AS WELL AS THEIR PARENTS BY DIRECTING THEM WRONG PATHS OF"LOOOT MAR" EVERY ONE WANTS TO BE MORE RICH WITHOUT HIS CONTRIBUTION THIS IS MORE "GIRRI HOI SOCH" AND I AM SORRY TO SAY THAT LOT OF ACCA STUDENTS WANTS TO SETTLE BY THAT APPROACH.......I am ltough ACCA part 2 student i am not having any professional skills and any other qualifications but i am very disappointed by our body's members and students.....think with this regards and reply about it .....................................
- kamranACA - 04-14-2007
Dear Amir,
I agree with your observation about lack of research and efforts by us. The intent of making money overnight has developed with the passage of time and its main reason is unemployment of so many people. You must have seen so many families where one person would be earning and all other would be the dependents. Our 52% population is of females which does not contribute towards social development. I am talking about the majority. We need a change of thoughts and culture of dependence over others. Every one should contribute his portion and it will lead to increased GDP, per capita income and prosperity.
I always say that advice is to be relied upon after using own mind and perception. Further, if some one is totally unaware of any thing, he/she should take advice from more than one person. One should ultimately use his/her mind and have a courage to accept the results of the decision taken by him/her. If your friend at big4 gave u such an advice, it might be his perception. You have to use your mind and decide what suits your circumstances. It's not a matter of fight at all.
You said that
"....i mean if ACA is that better then ACCA so why ICAP's market is diminishing day by day.....why ACCA has got more exposure in potiential employers, companies(Specially investment)..."
Since I am not placed at UK or GULF, I dont argue too much about the conditions prevailing there. However, if you are talking about Pakistan, I cannot comment on this though except for leaving a smile for you.
You interalia your discussion about personal development, said that
"lets think if I being an ACCA(Member) go to an employer who has a package of 100,000 for this vacancy plus a CULTUS.....And i speak their core urdu....and when he asked me that what is this ACCA...i tell him that It is world's fastest and largest growing accountancy body situated in UK"
You know CAs dont need to explain that "Sir this CA, it is done from bala bala institute and has its bala bala worth in bala bala country." Becoz people know what the CAs are upto. They know its worth. They ask only specific questions about experience and previous jobs and salary packages. Rest assure. If feel doubts, plz consult others. I dont argue any further about it.
I did not call number cruncher to ACCAs. People normally say that accountants are number crunchers. Since CA and ACCA both are accountants it falls on both qualification. However, I think a professional can do so much for any business and I have seen the cases where CAs with their efforts made the sick units the most viable. They are off course among the best managers.
In my view ACCAs have good curriculum contents. I dont negate it but they cannot engage in public practices unless they get full training for it. Therefore, personally I would always be against permitting them for public practice. If some body does not know what is difference between weaved and knitted fabric, how fabric meters are converted into yarn kgs to arrive at its costs, what processes are involved, how dyeing or printing is done, what cost ingredients are required and how much are required, what are its standards and what are actual results, how capacities of such complex machnies are arrived at and how inventories are valued, then how he can audit such an organization. It's quite a different exposure than simply reading the IFAC's pronouncements. When you are auditors, in so many matters, you have to develope your knowledge which comes only with training and exposure. You cannot go for experts' advices for each and every transaction. I know those CAs whose presence faints the color of faces of engineers and production people while results are discussed. This is the grace of CA. I am not talking about textile merely, this was simply an example. It has to happen in all sectors either it is steel, textile, petroleum, sugar, leather, sports, food, bankers or other sectors.
Where one does not know what are part one and part two financings, what does these mean and how these are documented and when one does not know what is pre-shipment and what is post shipment financing, what is suppliers credit, how it is got approved, how TFCs are issued and placed on stock exchanges, how additional resources of financings are arranged when collaterals are very meager, whats the major difference behind different finance arrangement, at what stages these could be obtained and where these could be utilized and what penalties could be expected on which sort of actions and breaches and how such penlaties could be avoided, how export invoices are negotiated, how foreign currency loans are obtained and how these are adjusted against export realizations through state bank, how will he audit such transactions. Yes, off course one has to learn each and every thing practically. You said you people are good at financial side. When you prepare financial models, you might choose good discounting rates by applying various theories to the ecocnomic factors. But for arriving at the true cash flows that would result in best estimation/valuation, you will again need much more indepth knowledge of the subject business, its operations, its markets, and other technical issues surrounding the determination of cash flows and their timings along with the terminal value estimations. It would never be that simple as MM theory appears to be in bookish studies. One has to learn this art practicaly. Off course studies support the professional works but so much needs to be obtained from undergoing trainings. This all is the real world where no body talks without money. The invetsment appraisal, capital market, portfolio and other theories studied from books only make a base to step forward. One needs to get out of the day dreams. In Pakistan, you ACCAs have to learn this all from CAs. Have you any doubt over it. Then why dont you accept CAs better than you at least in Pakistan. Dont talk to me about UK or else.
In fact CAs always remain ACCAs' USTAADs (teachers) and as per the Qaul of Hazrat Ali Karamallah Wajho, ACCAs should always keep regard for them. (Just Kidding dont mind).
At the end you talked about some LOOT MAAR and GIRI HUI SOCH for which I dont have any comments. We all should start correcting from our ownselves and from our homes. This way one day Inshallah we will succeed improving our country.
You expressed your dream to one day prove the worth of ACCA in Pakistan. It's very good and my prayers are with you.
May God fullfil all your noble dreams.
Best regards,
Kamran.
- Muhammad Amir - 04-15-2007
Bhai Kamran ACA sahab yes you are right but don't you think that you are much extra vagant as you said ACCA(that is all ACCAs) but i disagree here because you were too much general if you would specific to those who are ACCA till 3.7 cleared fellows who called themselves as ACCA and don't have any professional experiance...then i had no objections regarding this......but don't point all ACCA members...as you said that <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You expressed your dream to one day prove the worth of ACCA in Pakistan. It's very good and my prayers are with you.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
First I Say A'amen......then i would say thanks to you....
Kamran Sahab you used absolute technical jargon in previous posat and as a student of part 2 i have no knowledge of some of them at all ...you said that CAs would always be USTADDS of ACCAs i have no doubt over this...because my ALL teachers are ACAs infact FCAs one of whom is Great Sir Jawed Zubairee..(Do you know him???) an only Audit teacher in karachi... a Best teacher and i have lot respect for him..because i studied CAT's audit paper from him and very difficult paper infact 90% people dropped it as choice...because of extremely low pass rate but by grace of him by HELP OF ALLAH(S.W.T) I passed that with absolute flying marks and only 10 students were appeared for that paper in whole Sinds region and i don't know how many of them had passed...so their is no question on that FCAs are always USTADDS of ACCAs but don't say that ACA as well because they are i say not as USTADDS as FCAs are....laughing out........
- kamranACA - 04-15-2007
So matter stands resolved.
I am gonna be an FCA in very near future.
Regards,
Kamran.
- Muhammad Amir - 04-15-2007
really MashALLAH
- Muhammad Amir - 04-15-2007
What's your age and what other qualifications you have done
- kamranACA - 04-15-2007
xx
- kamranACA - 04-15-2007
xx
- Muhammad Amir - 04-15-2007
INSHALLAH-My prayers are with you go and do it ...May ALLAH(S.W.T) full fill you dreams A'amen
- Muhammad Amir - 04-15-2007
why you were soo affraid about you previous two posts i think this is great to tell others who you are but not hide because you are not showing off... isn't it
- msc286 - 04-17-2007
Please do not indulge in arguing on such tiny matters. This forum should only be used to discuss the matters relating to the profession. We should have the guts to listen to everyone without any bias on our mind.
Regards,
Mahmood Chaudhry
ACCA, ACA