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+--- Thread: 2 years ICAEW training waived to ICAP members (/showthread.php?tid=6221)
- Odyssee - 07-25-2009
@ KamranACA
what advice would you give to an ACCA affiliate in Pakistan? Should he directly claim exemptions from ICAEW or should he pursue CA from ICAP?
- UzairCh - 07-25-2009
No I was not part of the firm but my father had his training during the late 1970s in the lahore office the firm I named. I have good interaction with the Managing partner of that firm. I have been working in the Industry before moving into CA profession and that to just recently and spent my time first in Deloitte and then EY.
- kamranACA - 07-25-2009
Dear,
ACCA is good qualification if we look at its academic side, its subjects, study material, contents, and so on. This can polish the abilities of a genius but can't help every one with same intensity. There is lot more which needs to be reviewed which in my personal opinion (that's not binding on any one else) has been ignored. I discussed it with representatives of Pak chapter and they acknolwdged what I said is in fact notable and workable. However, neither they have to compulsorily act upon my humble suggestions nor I am so much concerned to keep on debating with them. Leaving a few rare cases which I know you are aware of, ACCAs are not well accepted at Pakistan and in fact flow out in loads every year. This creates frustration for lot more people who went out with an intent of returning gracefully to the homeland. The intent which never comes true because they know what they will be offered here. You must have witnessed cases of such frustration.
This was not what you asked but lays the foundation of what I want to reply.
In fact no qualification is that bad if we discuss it simply with reference to the academic issues. Professionaly speaking we can find differences. This is what one needs to concentrate on.
ICAEW has a history of larger acceptance at sub continent as well as so many parts of the world. It's respected for its quality undoubtedly. This has nothing to do with poor people's creation of master slave issues or revenue race or number game etc. Had it been the case ACCA should have been respected professionally in same fashion which unfortunately is not the case irrespective of lots of MRAs. If one can understand he may be knowing that like academic contents, MRAs can also not enhance acceptance in some designation's originality. Yes MRAs provide a base to penetrate if the subject qualification is factually upto it. So again undoubtedly it is solely based upon the grace, priviliges and honor which ICAEW carries for its quality over the decades and decades. It's no master slave issue.
ICAP has a greater relevance to the people who want to settle down at Pakistan or eventually at Pakistan although its members are working around the globe. It carrys independent identity and backing by Goverment, public and private sectors being localized charterholder, advisor and part of policy making exercizes at some fronts or in some facets.
ICAP did not make that level of efforts for MRAs etc in past since there was huge demand supply imbalance for its members thereby providing handsome returns locally as well as internationally.
However, now as a step forward to do the needful in changed globalized scenario it has recently started efforts for MRAs and MOU with ICAEW is the first such step. The people commenting on the step are theirself the most rejected and frustrated one. Their condition does not make them to understand this process. Essense is, end of times has not come and we have to witness a lot more in coming days on positive pole. An international qualification may come forth which can change the whole scene. I don't go into details before time.
In Pak ICAEW is fully recognised for membership of ICAP but this membership carries restricted rights. For getting into public practice they have to pass certain papers of ICAP. Without this they could be good only for industry and not for profession. Terms to be taken in general sense.
So summing up this whole write up, I feel ICAEW's CA will be a good option for ACCAs because they will get ICAP's membership as well. However two things can affect this decision. Firstly, since end of times has not come, if ICAP will restrict its membership to those ICAEW members who do not carry such designation on the basis of ACCA (or CIMA) then it will not be good. I personally will suggest ICAP's council members to take such decision since it also follows same rule. Let's see what they feel appropriate.
Secondly, even if ICAEW members who got such designation on the basis of ACCA are given ICAP's membership, they will not be allowed to start or join any public practice.
Keeping this in mind you can take your own decision.
Let me know if you require some input.
Regards,
Kamran.
- kamranACA - 07-25-2009
Dears,
It's again hilarious. What a man is this!
He knows what firms intake simply on the basis of info given on websites and argues to the people who are practically managing the firms or working in the firms in whatever capacity. He also find it hard to understand all the worries expressed by ACCA students ragrding least intaking of ACCAs by firms. I also wonder if he found the stipend rates declared at their websites for ACCA students. What a man he is!
The intaking criteria given at a website does not mean that it has to be followed compulsorily. Criterias normally prescribe the minimum and in case of availability of mximum no body opts for the minimum.
I wonder if he has never seen 45 percent passing marks criteria for admission in so many streams of studies. We know hardly any one having such marks is entertained there. The fools cannot differentiate and the fradulents / liars keep on bluffing. It's their habit. No worries.
Was there any logic to give Haider Abbas's email ID? Every one at this forum can even access his official and personal phone numbers. If a brain does not work he can ask how these could be accessed. A poor struggling ACCA affiliate does not understand that partners of reputed firms are not hidden like them. As soon as you will get to know their name, it's no issue to get their contacts and addresses. If any one simply type my FULL name at any internet search engine, he will get all of my info. Haider is partner of one of best firms of Pakistan. Who needed disclosure of his email address? This is an effort to mitigate the respect lost by some one through criminal/fradulent acts at this forum.
If some one is so courgeous and willing then why he does not reply the proven allegations of misrepresentation and decieving the forum members?
Beaware of the frauds and lies of this man. He has been proven to be criminal and was thrown out by ADMIN. Remember this!
Regards,
Kamran.
- UzairCh - 07-25-2009
<i>So its ACCA part 2 and ICAP intermediate are getting same salary in firm in Pakistan. However ACCA students normally do not stay in firms because of salary reason as someone who is paying fees in pounds will naturally not accept salary of couple of thousands Pak ruppes. Moreover, I came to know through this site that ACCA is expensive and ACA from ICAP is cheaper. I am not making any distinction but its reality (given facts in Pakistan) that ppl doing ACCA are relatively well off than ppl doing ACA from ICAP, so salry offered to trainees in firms in Pakistan is not acceptable to ACCA students that is why they prefer to fly to UAE. </i>
No mroneflower1 its not the same in all cities of Pakistan. In big 4 firms in karachi ACCA affiliates are getting more salaries that CA inters. While ACCA part qualifieds are getting slightly lesser that CA Inters. In medium sized and small sized firms ACCAs and CA inters either get same salary or less that CA inters.
In Lahore and Islamabad the situation is different. Only KPMG and EY invite part qualified ACCA trainees and that too with strong reference.Smaller firms accept them but with lesser stipents around 4,400 etc. Firms Generally donot accept part qualified ACCAs because they leave firms after sometime. The rule in most of Big 4 is that ACCA must be full qualified and eligible to be registered with ICAP. PART QUALIFIED ACCAs IF TAKEN ON INTERNSHIP ARE NOT GIVEN ANY STIPEND AND INTERNSHIP LASTS 6 months. IF DUE TO SOME STRONG REFERENCE THEY ARE GIVEN TRAINING FOR ACCA then the stipend offered is Rs5500.
Actually the reason why ACCAs leave the firm is not because ACCA is expensive and they are given lesser stipends. As you said only well off people do ACCA. Yes its true only well off people can afford it so finacially they have no problem. The reason why ACCAs quit CA firms is they have better chances of getting a good job, after qualifying, in middle east as compared to CA Inters. So they keep looking for jobs and then leave firms as soon as they find one. This created problems for the next generation of ACCAs and they are finding it very difficult to enter in Leading firms. I repeatedly urge my ACCA and CIMA fellows in different firms and schools and colleges to dont weigh your life in firms in terms of money. You donot need money at the age of 20 or 21. You should look for experience. Spend your 3 years very carefully in these firms if you get into and learn something. These 3 years which you spend in a big 4 at a very low stipend will give you a huge reward in the later years of your life.
Trainees opinion change about firms ONCE THEY FINISH THEIR TRAINING. You will dislike your firm only before joining it or in the initial months. But after that you will enjoy your articles life and believe me 'pata bhi naheen chalay ga yeh period guzar jae ga'
Those people suffer, cry and never go high up in their lives who quit the firms in 1 years time. When they find jobs abroad, foreign employers often request Big4 firms to provide opinion about how the person was. In most of the cases firms send negative feedback and it turns out to be a huge blow for the person.
You asked about me whether i will be given any high stipend or not I am still too young to worry about money. May be I am different from others but I donot weigh things at this stage in monetory terms. I believe my focus is firstly to qualify and secondly to learn to work, thats all. Once these 2 things are achieved then money itself will flow to me. -) My advise to everyone is never be short tempered and dont spoil you future in hasty decisions. Getting into big firms is not an easy thing and once you get it start respecting it and be thankful about it and always remember you are very close to a remarkable career in your life, dont spoil or waste your chance.
- Odyssee - 07-26-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Dear,
ACCA is good qualification if we look at its academic side, its subjects, study material, contents, and so on. This can polish the abilities of a genius but can't help every one with same intensity. There is lot more which needs to be reviewed which in my personal opinion (that's not binding on any one else) has been ignored. I discussed it with representatives of Pak chapter and they acknolwdged what I said is in fact notable and workable. However, neither they have to compulsorily act upon my humble suggestions nor I am so much concerned to keep on debating with them. Leaving a few rare cases which I know you are aware of, ACCAs are not well accepted at Pakistan and in fact flow out in loads every year. This creates frustration for lot more people who went out with an intent of returning gracefully to the homeland. The intent which never comes true because they know what they will be offered here. You must have witnessed cases of such frustration.
This was not what you asked but lays the foundation of what I want to reply.
In fact no qualification is that bad if we discuss it simply with reference to the academic issues. Professionaly speaking we can find differences. This is what one needs to concentrate on.
ICAEW has a history of larger acceptance at sub continent as well as so many parts of the world. It's respected for its quality undoubtedly. This has nothing to do with poor people's creation of master slave issues or revenue race or number game etc. Had it been the case ACCA should have been respected professionally in same fashion which unfortunately is not the case irrespective of lots of MRAs. If one can understand he may be knowing that like academic contents, MRAs can also not enhance acceptance in some designation's originality. Yes MRAs provide a base to penetrate if the subject qualification is factually upto it. So again undoubtedly it is solely based upon the grace, priviliges and honor which ICAEW carries for its quality over the decades and decades. It's no master slave issue.
ICAP has a greater relevance to the people who want to settle down at Pakistan or eventually at Pakistan although its members are working around the globe. It carrys independent identity and backing by Goverment, public and private sectors being localized charterholder, advisor and part of policy making exercizes at some fronts or in some facets.
ICAP did not make that level of efforts for MRAs etc in past since there was huge demand supply imbalance for its members thereby providing handsome returns locally as well as internationally.
However, now as a step forward to do the needful in changed globalized scenario it has recently started efforts for MRAs and MOU with ICAEW is the first such step. The people commenting on the step are theirself the most rejected and frustrated one. Their condition does not make them to understand this process. Essense is, end of times has not come and we have to witness a lot more in coming days on positive pole. An international qualification may come forth which can change the whole scene. I don't go into details before time.
In Pak ICAEW is fully recognised for membership of ICAP but this membership carries restricted rights. For getting into public practice they have to pass certain papers of ICAP. Without this they could be good only for industry and not for profession. Terms to be taken in general sense.
So summing up this whole write up, I feel ICAEW's CA will be a good option for ACCAs because they will get ICAP's membership as well. However two things can affect this decision. Firstly, since end of times has not come, if ICAP will restrict its membership to those ICAEW members who do not carry such designation on the basis of ACCA (or CIMA) then it will not be good. I personally will suggest ICAP's council members to take such decision since it also follows same rule. Let's see what they feel appropriate.
Secondly, even if ICAEW members who got such designation on the basis of ACCA are given ICAP's membership, they will not be allowed to start or join any public practice.
Keeping this in mind you can take your own decision.
Let me know if you require some input.
Regards,
Kamran.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thank u for a detailed and in-length reply. I really appreciate that. According to my understanding at the moment, there is substantial risk involved for an ACCA affiliate to become an ACA-ICAEW student. This is mainly because most of the to-be ACCA Affilates(waiting for the results) are unsure and skeptical that whether they would be able to get an ICAEW Training Contract in Pakistan. I have however claimed the credit for prior learning from ICAEW, just in case if there are other developments.
On the other hand, CA-ICAP seems to be a more safer path for an ACCA Affiliate, and i know a number of ACCAs who took this path and have been enjoying quite a successful career.
I agree with you that some aspects of the ACCA qualification needs to be reviewed. I personally feel that the there should be strict entrance requirements for the ACCA qualification. AT the moment any Tom, Dick or Harry can enter into ACCA without any testing. Secondly, the marking procedure of the exam scripts should be improved. I know a number of below average students, who had little or no knowledge about the subject, still passing their papers. This is very unfair and demotivating for those students who spend days and nights in their studies, reading reference books and journals, and at the end of the day find themselves on the same stand as any other mediocre student. To strengthen this point i would like to quote Michael Mainwaring, the teacher for ACCA paper P3 "Business Analysis" at London College of Accountancy UK. Mainwaring writes about the marking procedure of ACCA and states that
<b>"Students labour under the naive belief that their exam papers are marked by a dedicated subject specialist, against a detailed marking scheme in which there are uniform standards which determines who passes and who fails. I suspect that such students also believe in Father Christmas, the tooth fairy and that auditing is about generating a true and fair view of a business.
No. They are marked by people who are largely doing it for the money, and doing it under time pressures, with only general guidance of what marks to award. Further, i has long been suspected (and the ACCA has apparently admitted) that marks are adjusted to achieve the desired pass rates. What this means is that <u>you can pass this exam by writing crap</u>, as long as it is neatly presented crap, and as long as you give crappy answers to three questions, and as long as 40% or so of other students sitting the paper write crappier answers".</b> (emphasis is mine) <i>Page iv ACCA P3 "Business Analysis" Study Manual by Michael Mainwaring, published by LCA.</i>
Above words of Mainwaring might be encouraging for those students who wish to pass their papers without laboring for it, but it deeply concerns me as this method of marking would prove to be detrimental for the quality of ACCA. Moreover this marking methodology would (infact, it has) cause incompetent people to flood the job market, creating problems for deserving individuals.
I usually compare myself with those of my friends who are CA-Inters and are about the same age as i am, and i find that as an ACCA Affiliate i would have more options available to me than they have at the moment. However, more options often cause confusions, dilemmas and trilemmas!! But one feels a lot secure when they have a variety of options available to them. But having more options is not necessarily an ingredient for the recipe of a successful career. Secondly, i feel that i have gained more knowledge in ACCA than i would have achieved as a CA-Inter. That difference is evident if one compares the syllabus of CA-Inter with ACCA syllabus. The knowledge i have gained in ACCA has prepared me for the Module E and Module F papers i will have to attempt in CA-ICAP (except for Law and Taxation papers). To conclude, according to my limited knowlegde, i believe that ACCA is a good route for CA-ICAP. But that is my view; others might have a different view as well.
- tariqsohail - 07-26-2009
Completely agree with Mr. Uzair's last post. If you are able to pass your intial but very important time in a good organization then things will automatically flowing towards you.
Regards,
Sohail
- rabia-k - 07-26-2009
@ odyssee
"any tom dick and harry can enter the ACCA without any testing."
i dont agree with you on this one. what i have seen here is that pakistani metric pass students are always put into CAT. i have rarely seen a pakistani metric pass student who has directly been enrolled into the ACCA. you have to be an O/A levels to register with the ACCA.
what really confuses me is when i see b.com and M.coms registering with ACCA and receiving the same sort of exemptions in ACCA i.e papers from papers F1 to F4. infact i have an MBA in my class who's only exempted from the first 4 papers.!!! eventhough the ACCA P level is considered to be equivalent to masters degree, to some extent.
i did rather say that any tom dick and harry can pass the ACCA, IF they work hard. you dont really need to be a genius to pass your ACCA papers. with a solid 5 hrs learning in a day, one can pull a rabbit out of the hat with the ACCA (Fudamental level)
still i see students taking 3 to 4 attempts to pass their papers, managing to scrap a 50 , 52 mark which is very low. its just unfair for students passing with 70%+ burning away the midnight oil, studying.
we also have an option to choose P4. this subject is so very essential for any would be accountant, i mean how can any1 just bypass this paper? but there are students who DO skip this paper.
middle east is a huge market for ACCAs, BUT you also have a huge ever growing no. of ACCA students studying, living amd working here. leave alone the other countries, there are several students already studying for the ACCA here and also working in firms. our institute is a gold approved ACCA tuition provider, fully managed and owned by indians except for the ACCA department. we have ACCA tutors from Pakistan . they come here, teach for 4 or 6 months and then return back to pakistan. not everyone is lucky to get a job in firms here. the truth is that there are just too many and too few jobs, WORRY!!
- Odyssee - 07-27-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rabia-k</i>
<br />@ odyssee
"any tom dick and harry can enter the ACCA without any testing."
i dont agree with you on this one. what i have seen here is that pakistani metric pass students are always put into CAT. i have rarely seen a pakistani metric pass student who has directly been enrolled into the ACCA. you have to be an O/A levels to register with the ACCA.
what really confuses me is when i see b.com and M.coms registering with ACCA and receiving the same sort of exemptions in ACCA i.e papers from papers F1 to F4. infact i have an MBA in my class who's only exempted from the first 4 papers.!!! eventhough the ACCA P level is considered to be equivalent to masters degree, to some extent.
i did rather say that any tom dick and harry can pass the ACCA, IF they work hard. you dont really need to be a genius to pass your ACCA papers. with a solid 5 hrs learning in a day, one can pull a rabbit out of the hat with the ACCA (Fudamental level)
still i see students taking 3 to 4 attempts to pass their papers, managing to scrap a 50 , 52 mark which is very low. its just unfair for students passing with 70%+ burning away the midnight oil, studying.
we also have an option to choose P4. this subject is so very essential for any would be accountant, i mean how can any1 just bypass this paper? but there are students who DO skip this paper.
middle east is a huge market for ACCAs, BUT you also have a huge ever growing no. of ACCA students studying, living amd working here. leave alone the other countries, there are several students already studying for the ACCA here and also working in firms. our institute is a gold approved ACCA tuition provider, fully managed and owned by indians except for the ACCA department. we have ACCA tutors from Pakistan . they come here, teach for 4 or 6 months and then return back to pakistan. not everyone is lucky to get a job in firms here. the truth is that there are just too many and too few jobs, WORRY!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
@ Rabia
when i said "any tom, dick or harry can enter into ACCA", my reference was towards the students who register as an ACCA through the Mature Student Entry Route, according to which, the only requirement is, that u need to be 21 years old at the time of registration. This is the route to ACCA which concerns me deeply and was the focus of my criticism. Secondly, after A-levels, the resquirements for registering as an ACCA student through the Professional Entry Route, is to have 2 passes in any subjects. Even those who have scored E's(50%) in Urdu or Sociology in A-levels can register as an ACCA student. Is it fair?
i completely agree with you that any tom, dick or harry can pass ACCA papers. This is mainly because of the marking procedures adopted by ACCA, as i have metnioned in the earlier post, and unless something is done about it, it is bound to ruin the quality of ACCA qualification. But i can assure you that the syllabus of ACCA is of international standard and is comparable with any international accountancy qualification. The only flaw is in the examining and marking methodology, according to which those students who do not have perfect understanding of the syllabus can still pass their exams. I'll give u an example Technically IFRS 4 is in the syllabus of P2 "Corporate Reporting". I would challenge u to ask any ACCA student who has passed P2, to explain u IFRS 4. You'd be surprised to witness their unability to do so. Similarly, IFRICs and SIC's are technically in the syllabus of P2, but no one cares to understand them because in the exam questions are not normally set on them. So, one who has spent his time equally at understanding ALL the elements of the syllabus would probably score lower than him/her who has spent his done exam focused studies. Thats what my argument is. The focus is not on understanding issues and concepts, but to simply pass the papers. And most of the teachers follow this exam focused approach. It is good for passing the exams. But that would only give one a limited understanding of the syllabus, even after passing the exams.
Again i agree with u that P4 should be a compulsory subject as it was in the previous ACCA syllabus. Atleast in karachi, i must tell u that most of the students attempt P4 n P5. Infact i also attempted the same combination. A question can be asked that, how can one bypass P7 "Advanced Audit and Assurance" in ACCA? EY has a policy of giving a raised stipend (more than CA inters) to those who have passes in P6 or P7. But still a majority of the students attempt P4 n P5. This is because there is only 1 reputable teacher of P6 in karachi, and none for P7.
Almost all of my friends who became ACCA Affiliates in the last session, got inducted into Big4. Those who didnt get into Big4 actually didnt apply in BIG4 and preferred to join the industry or the financial institutions. You would definitely find many ACCA students who are frustrated and will be constantly whining and complaining about not getting a training contract (i've been through that stage), but you wont find any ACCA affiliate doing the same. You might find ACCA Affiliates complaining about the work load and the lack of decent stipend in the firm (CA Inters complain the same way during articleship), but u would hardly find an ACCA Affiliate who is unemployed or not under a training contract. And i guess this is the bright side which everyone should focus on.
- Mujahid - 07-27-2009
Abay thak jao. Itna likh likh k thaktay nahee? / Mujhe to parh k hi sir dukhnay lagta hai. Koi paisay deta hai kia itna likhnay k? Aur rabia, larki in logon k saath na uth beth. Tumhein bhi aadat lag gai lambi lambi post karnay ki /
- Mujahid - 07-27-2009
Khabardaar Lambi posts parhna aur likhna sehat k liye muzir hai Wizarat-e-Shahbaz
- Odyssee - 07-27-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mujahid</i>
<br />Khabardaar Lambi posts parhna aur likhna sehat k liye muzir hai Wizarat-e-Shahbaz
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
[D]i can understand why reading might be huge problem for some of us[D]
- rabia-k - 07-27-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mujahid</i>
<br />Abay thak jao. Itna likh likh k thaktay nahee? / Mujhe to parh k hi sir dukhnay lagta hai. Koi paisay deta hai kia itna likhnay k? Aur rabia, larki in logon k saath na uth beth. Tumhein bhi aadat lag gai lambi lambi post karnay ki /
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Brother Shahbaz thank you for being concerned about me [D][D]
kuch ka sir parh ke dukhnay lagta hai, kuch ka sir soch soch ke dukhney lagta hai [D] [D]
- Goodman - 07-27-2009
pls. take note
BOI (Board of Investments') advert is lost
Mroneflower is back.
i think forum admin should publish the traffic info.
- ausmanpk2001 - 07-27-2009
Keeping all these discussions aside, I'm an ACCA student & really want to sign an ICAEW training contract with a big4 firm so as to qualify as a CA-ICAEW, CA-ICAP & ACCA within next two years!
Secondly, the marking criteria post is really absurd. The examiners may be under time pressure, deadlines etc but there is a very clear marking criteria which acca publishes after results & is available on the website with past papers. The marking scheme is very clear to the extent that how much marks to award per point & how much marks for writing clarity etc etc.
Secondly, here I can certify with PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that no one passes without writing a good enough paper. I don't know how & why some people claiming to be ACCA students are saying things like in the above posts.