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Mutual Funds
02-20-2010, 07:06 PM
Post: #1
Mutual Funds
Can short term investment in Mutual funds which are classified as held for trading be considered Cash and cash equivalent.
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02-21-2010, 12:16 PM
Post: #2
 
Noor

I am not having IFRSs book at this moment so may not be able to quote exact refrences; still would like to answer your query.

Cash equivalents include highly liquid investments (here short term categorization is not an issue) that can be readily converted into known amount of cash.

The words "highly liquid", "readily convertible " and "known amount of cash" are vital to understand the issue. I hope these words have been used by IAS-7 (as per my memory).

Mutual funds can either be Open End or Close End funds.let's think on both separately.

In case the fund is a close end, you have to sell your shares/units in a secondary market since these cannot be redeemed by the Fund/AMC. In doing so, unpredictable amount of time is required (to locate a customer and to agree the pricing) and the amount to be fetched from sale is also unpredictable (mostly close end funds are listed and rate can fluctuate).

Therefore, in my view investment in close end mutual funds cannot be treated as cash equivalent since it is not "readily convertible" and "amount is not readily known".

In case of open end funds, NBFC rules and regulations have provided a specific time period (probably six days) to AMCs to act upon investee's request of redemption. Such requests are routed through "distributors" appointed by AMCs which process even against the law oftenly take more than the precribed limit of days. Besides this, even if process is completed within prescribed time, the convertible amount will depend upon NAV of the day on which conversion will actually take place and not as per the NAV on the day request has been made.so convertible amount is always unknown and even cannot exactly be predicted on the date when request for redemption is forwarded.

Therefore, in my view investment in open end mutual funds can also not be treated as cash equivalent since it is not "readily convertible", and the amount it will fetch on redemption is "not readily known" on any reporting date.

I hope query is answered.


Regards,



Kamran.
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02-21-2010, 02:34 PM
Post: #3
 
Hi Kamran,

You are very right.


Cash equivalent has been defined in IAS 7 Para 6 Short-term, highly liquid investments that are readily convertible into known amounts of cash and that are subject to an insignificant amount of risk of changes in value.

Cash equivalents are held by the entity for meeting short-term commitments. The true meaning of cash equivalents can be best understood by analyzing the definition given by the Standard. According to the definition, cash equivalents are required to possess these two attributes

(a) They should be “short term” in nature; that is, they are held for meeting short-term cash commitments. In other words, an investment normally qualifies as cash equivalent only if it has a short maturity, say, three months or less, from the date of acquisition.

(b) They should be “highly liquid investments” that are “readily convertible to known amounts of cash and are subject to an insignificant risk of changes in value.”

Most of our juniors are also confused about the definition of cash, which is

Cash Comprises cash on hand and demand deposits with banks.

Demand deposit means, it is free from any lien, encumbrance, charge, restriction etc.

Regards,

GREAT KHANS
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02-21-2010, 08:48 PM
Post: #4
 
assalamualykum, i agree with both of you with definition of cash and cash equivalent. "Short-term (3 months maturity), highly liquid investments that are readily convertible into known amounts of cash and that are subject to an insignificant amount of risk of changes in value."treasury bills called T BILLS, commercial papers and money market funds are examples of cash equivalent right? ok..
here is something about mutual funds
A mutual fund is nothing more than a collection of stocks and/or bonds. You can think of a mutual fund as a company that brings together a group of people and invests their money in stocks, bonds, and other securities. Each investor owns shares, which represent a portion of the holdings of the fund
while going through the advanges of mutual funds i got attracted by one "liquidity" (Just like an individual stock, a mutual fund allows you to request that your shares be converted into cash at any time.)
while going through different types of mutual funds i found out one of the safest form of mutual funds "<b>MONEY MARKET FUNDS"</b> The money market consists of short-term debt instruments, mostly Treasury bills.
now thing is you know better than me what treasury bills are they are short term in nature as they been specified by IAS 7 while defining cash equivalent. and when mutual fund leads me to an investemnt of money market funds specificaly in t bills than why i cannot consider them as cash equivalent? please guide me sir kamran and greatkhan
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02-22-2010, 02:54 AM
Post: #5
 
Dear

What a mutual fund is investing in is not something that decides what character the securities of mutual fund itself have. You are discussing the characteristic of assets that mutual fund might be investing in. Question has no linkage with it; rather it focuses how the mutual fund's own securities can be realized.


We don't have to see how mutual fund will realize its investment. We are not going to treat a mutual fund as non going concern to evaluate how mutual fund will dispose of its investment and distribute its total realized assets to unitholders and eventually will be dissolved. Even if this happens, the unitholder of mutual fund can neither assess what amount he will get and how much time it will take.

So, case is being evaluated on going concern basis.

In case of close end funds there is entirely no question or bearing that you are making. On other hand I have already explained why open end fund's units cannot be treated as cash equivalent.

One advice to be taken positively; if you are an accounting student you may go to the depth, but if not, you may try to grasp basics but don't try technical things. These will create confusions for readers.

Regards,



Kamran.
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02-22-2010, 03:10 AM
Post: #6
 
Hi June23am,

I second Kamran who has well elaborated the case. The terms of contract with Mutual Funds govern on the decision how units should be classified as "Cash Equivalent". As long as units are within the definition of the cash equivalent and meet the requirements/conditions, they should be classified as "Cash Equivalent". No matter where and how mutual fund is investing them onwards.

Regards,

GREAT KHANS
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02-22-2010, 05:10 AM
Post: #7
 
sir kamran

Can short term investment in Mutual funds which are classified as held for trading be considered Cash and cash equivalent.?
is't this the question? if yes than is what i was aksing why i cannot consider it cash equivalent when i am investing in a short term mutual funnd(Money market mutual funds, treasury bills, Certificates of deposit, and Bank money market accounts)? you are saying if i own a treasury bill or certificate of deposit or bank money market account neither by way of mutual fund than is cash equivalent but in case my investment through mutual fund is in these tools than i cannot?...even viewing it on going concern basis in case of a t bill what risk one have?
about open end mutual funds "Open ended funds can issue and redeem units any time during the life of the scheme, on NAV" ivesting in open ended mutual fund (money market mutual fund or treasury bill) which i know is backed by govt. no risk readily cash why should't i consider it cash equivalent?


great khan
what you are saying itself is that investment in mutual funds can be consider cash equivalent if it meets the requirments/conditions no matter where mutual funds invest it.. anyways rules/types/classes of mutual funds aint same in whole world, i should't be sticking up how investment are being through or mutual funds are in pakistan,these standards are not been made by our govt. we merely are follwoing them accounting/auditing/finance standards, so broad up the vision by looking at the whole world not just what i m doing at my place..i have read it even in a book i think "Advanced Financial Accounting An IAS and IFRS Approach
Pearl Tan (Author), Peter Lee (Author)
that investment in mutual funds short term securities are considered cash equivalent...will make sure to find a solid groud for this . jazakALLAH both of you
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02-22-2010, 08:23 AM
Post: #8
 
Hi June23am,

I think Kamran and I,both have explained various aspects of the issue. If you have a different view then please follow what you think appropriate. We explained it in the light of IFRS, which is sufficient.

Regards,

GREAT KHANS
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02-22-2010, 08:40 PM
Post: #9
 
yes you expalined it by telling me what cash equivalents are by giving the definition only nothing is been discussed about what was been asked. in my opinion short term investments in mutual funds can be considered cash equivalents, i agree close end mutual funds cannot be treated or doubted to consider as cash equivalent but investment in open ended mutual funds can be considered cash equivalent if they fulfil the criteria of cash equivalent (the definition) at the time of valuing investment in short term securities mutual funds market rate is to be taken of mutual fund, it just the matter of investment you cannot say it cannot be treated as cash equivalent.In case of Open End Fund, it is required to ascertain whether, these funds can be converted into cash when required into known amount of cash, if this is not the case then open end funds may also not be treated as cash equivalent, in the contrary, they may be considered as cash equivalent. jazakALLAH
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Greatkhans</i>
<br />Hi June23am,

I think Kamran and I,both have explained various aspects of the issue. If you have a different view then please follow what you think appropriate. We explained it in the light of IFRS, which is sufficient.

Regards,

GREAT KHANS
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
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02-22-2010, 09:15 PM
Post: #10
 
Dears

Question is about mutual funds units and is certainly not asked about how all the world has to treat in varying level of statutory provisions.

We certainly have to see IFRSs and apply them in the given situation. Certainly mutual funds are governed by different regulatory approaches at various spots of the globe. There is no universally applicable solution to any question that requires taking into account IFRSs and local regulations simultaneously.

What IAS-7 has required is well know but the "critic" appears to be at gross ignorance of how mutual fund industry is governed in Pakistan. He should learn what is meant by open end fund and what r close end funds; how these are governed; how their securities/units are sold, traded or redeemed and what technical issues are pertinent in both cases.

If a close end fund is listed, the investment made by such fund makes no difference at all for pricing, trading volume and demand/supply of its own shares. I believe the "critic" does not understand it at all.

In open end funds, although NAV and redemption price is dependent
Upon underlying assets but the characteristic of its own units has nothing to do with what assets it has at any point of time. Certainly no unitholder can raise his hand with any claim to get T Bills held by such Fund.such T Bills are not his investment; rather his investment is open end funds' own units. He can only retire his units and convert them into cash. Here every jurisdiction can vary with reference to required process for redemption. In Pakistan, law allows six days after the request for redemption is made to act upon such request. So it is not readily convertible highly liquid instrument. Further, the ultimate redemption price will depend upon NAV of exact that day when request for redemption will be acted upon that is never known beforehand with precision. So, the amount of convertible cash can not at all be exactly known at any reporting date.

Since both conditions are not met, these are not cash equivalent.

I believe very few people know technically that how mutual fund industry operates in Pakistan. I would request readers and objectors to learn "mutual fund industry" in Pakistan, and then assess the validity of answer.

In Pakistan mutual fund units cannot be treated as cash equivalent.

A lay man of course cannot understand it merely by reading internet stuff or on the basis of bookish knowledge.

Don't divert people from correct solution if you are not familiar with a topic.

We see when these persons are taught after they make "damaagh ka dahi" then they say "in Florida this happens this way". Bhaai mutual funds are regulated by local laws every where. There is no aafaaqi solution.

Don't please mess up a simple thing merely for lack of knowledge on the issue.


Regards,



Kamran.
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02-22-2010, 11:14 PM
Post: #11
 
it was't there that question is been asked for the rules made by "pakistan mutual fund authority" or under such authority or was it? what if i was sitting in america and i somehow managed to ask it from you the same question how will you guide me through no you cannot? and what will i write in my paper? coz sir kamran said in pakistan it cannot be so it cannot be?..the answer should't be no if it was't there (in pakistan) ya i agree answer should have been that in here mutual funds cannot be considered but in some states it can be, dont you think it is the right answer? anyways books and internet stuff is't based on imagination dont forget every one goes practical after going through books. i will see k i should consider all the comments questions answers by viewing it happend in pakistan thats it. dont you like it when someone talks about the whole world? how about keeping in view you are following such standards adopted by whole world than why just limited to pakistan?..anyways jazakALLAH for your concern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Dears

Question is about mutual funds units and is certainly not asked about how all the world has to treat in varying level of statutory provisions.

We certainly have to see IFRSs and apply them in the given situation. Certainly mutual funds are governed by different regulatory approaches at various spots of the globe. There is no universally applicable solution to any question that requires taking into account IFRSs and local regulations simultaneously.

What IAS-7 has required is well know but the "critic" appears to be at gross ignorance of how mutual fund industry is governed in Pakistan. He should learn what is meant by open end fund and what r close end funds; how these are governed; how their securities/units are sold, traded or redeemed and what technical issues are pertinent in both cases.

If a close end fund is listed, the investment made by such fund makes no difference at all for pricing, trading volume and demand/supply of its own shares. I believe the "critic" does not understand it at all.

In open end funds, although NAV and redemption price is dependent
Upon underlying assets but the characteristic of its own units has nothing to do with what assets it has at any point of time. Certainly no unitholder can raise his hand with any claim to get T Bills held by such Fund.such T Bills are not his investment; rather his investment is open end funds' own units. He can only retire his units and convert them into cash. Here every jurisdiction can vary with reference to required process for redemption. In Pakistan, law allows six days after the request for redemption is made to act upon such request. So it is not readily convertible highly liquid instrument. Further, the ultimate redemption price will depend upon NAV of exact that day when request for redemption will be acted upon that is never known beforehand with precision. So, the amount of convertible cash can not at all be exactly known at any reporting date.

Since both conditions are not met, these are not cash equivalent.

I believe very few people know technically that how mutual fund industry operates in Pakistan. I would request readers and objectors to learn "mutual fund industry" in Pakistan, and then assess the validity of answer.

In Pakistan mutual fund units cannot be treated as cash equivalent.

A lay man of course cannot understand it merely by reading internet stuff or on the basis of bookish knowledge.

Don't divert people from correct solution if you are not familiar with a topic.

We see when these persons are taught after they make "damaagh ka dahi" then they say "in Florida this happens this way". Bhaai mutual funds are regulated by local laws every where. There is no aafaaqi solution.

Don't please mess up a simple thing merely for lack of knowledge on the issue.


Regards,



Kamran.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
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02-22-2010, 11:37 PM
Post: #12
 
Dear

Although for a man like me who is not good in a foreign language, it is very difficult to understand whatever you write; still you were neither focused on query nor you exactly know what the question seeks to ask.

Let me tell you that you are entirely ignorant of accounting principles and are wrongly correlating your, say, Florida situation with the problem being faced by some one in Pakistan.

Internet and books contain oceans of knowledge resource but the one who does not understand or has not gone through a learning process, creates what you have done.

Anyway, its your prerogative being a member of the forum. I can only advise that don't do the things that can misdirect the one who seeks a solution to his problem.

Believe you me I am not here for a research on "tractor". If you wish to do so, open a thread for your so-called research and continue with exploring your accounting software (be it tractor or mercedez).

To do this is an advice and may also be treated as request.

Otherwise you will be creating confusions for those who wish to get clarified.

Hope you will understand.


Regards,



Kamran.
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02-22-2010, 11:53 PM
Post: #13
 
We see when these persons are taught after they make "damaagh ka dahi" then they say "in Florida this happens this way". lol you were right that tractor thing makes it clear what these persons do..no race of z,y,x and one thing you can bet on k from now on i will consider all behalf of what you are doing in pakistan . jazakALLAH
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Dear

Although for a man like me who is not good in a foreign language, it is very difficult to understand whatever you write; still you were neither focused on query nor you exactly know what the question seeks to ask.

Let me tell you that you are entirely ignorant of accounting principles and are wrongly correlating your, say, Florida situation with the problem being faced by some one in Pakistan.

Internet and books contain oceans of knowledge resource but the one who does not understand or has not gone through a learning process, creates what you have done.

Anyway, its your prerogative being a member of the forum. I can only advise that don't do the things that can misdirect the one who seeks a solution to his problem.

Believe you me I am not here for a research on "tractor". If you wish to do so, open a thread for your so-called research and continue with exploring your accounting software (be it tractor or mercedez).

To do this is an advice and may also be treated as request.

Otherwise you will be creating confusions for those who wish to get clarified.

Hope you will understand.


Regards,



Kamran.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
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02-23-2010, 01:56 AM
Post: #14
 
Thanks God!

BTW I know you are not in race. Some inventions are not for race. Some of them were explained n PTV 2 which I recalled.

Anyway; thanks.


Regards,
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02-24-2010, 12:32 AM
Post: #15
 
Sorry i could not specify that these Mutual fund relate to Pakistan.
By the way thanks, i got my answer from the very first post by Mr. Kamran, rest discussion was really good till the TRACTORS came in the scene.



Regards

Noor
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