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 Modernization or Westernization in Pakistan
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deezel
Unregistered Trainee

8 Posts

Posted - Apr 02 2005 :  02:03:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit deezel's Homepage  Send deezel an AOL message


AOA All,

Im currently in the USA. I have lived in Pakistan all my life. I moved to the US for higher education. Im here in the US ever since (1998- to date)

I want know how all of u feel about Pakistan being modernized or Westernized?

I have Geo TV and ARY at subscription at home and I think we Paki's are more western/ modern than before atleast in my teenage time; Im 28.

Please post to this topic and enlighten all of us especially buddies from Pakistan



Huma
Junior

147 Posts

Posted - Apr 02 2005 :  11:28:46 AM  Show Profile
pretty interesting, ... Will get back to ur post shortly, gotta run to work...
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poor_ophie
Unregistered Trainee

9 Posts

Posted - Apr 02 2005 :  1:45:59 PM  Show Profile
Actually ..... we have not modernized ....... we are just getting rid of rigid thoughts and religious extremism ........ all of us who have grown up in early 90s or late 80s feel it a bit strange but I think its good to be more broad minded .......
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farazthegreat
Semi Senior

Canada
208 Posts

Posted - Apr 02 2005 :  11:19:48 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by poor_ophie

Actually ..... we have not modernized ....... we are just getting rid of rigid thoughts and religious extremism ........ all of us who have grown up in early 90s or late 80s feel it a bit strange but I think its good to be more broad minded .......



There are religious extremists in every country. Look at the "Christian right-wing" in the US, and their reaction to the Schiavo case. They tried to ban "Spongebob Squarepants" because they thought he was gay. In my opinion they are just as ridiculous like our "mullahs", if not more.

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A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.

Edited by - farazthegreat on Apr 02 2005 11:26:35 PM
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Pracs
Partner

United Kingdom
1542 Posts

Posted - Apr 04 2005 :  12:26:55 AM  Show Profile  Send Pracs an ICQ Message
The post zia - islamic cloak has sort of fizzeld out to quite an extent. It is true that people are now more open to a lot of possibilities, we are now more ''industrialised'' say compared to two decades ago. Ofcourse it has a lot more to do with education that has some how penetrated to the smaller cities as well.

However, care must be taken not to preceive the level of westernisation to the general outlook of an unrbanite Pakistani,. that is something more infuenced by the Cable and the internet. We may look more westernised but need to be more ''developed'' in the way we think, work and care.
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abdulmajid
Junior

Pakistan
67 Posts

Posted - Apr 04 2005 :  01:27:03 AM  Show Profile
in pakistan extremist are on the rise ( both religious extremists and pseudo-liberals), moderates are on the receiving end. when we don't agree with the ignorance of mullah, he questions our Iman. and when we don't join dirty liberal fanatics, they call us narrow minded. since both type of hardliners love to smash me that's why i consider myself a moderate (sure some will disagree ).

inta habieba omri, malikta omri
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farazthegreat
Semi Senior

Canada
208 Posts

Posted - Apr 04 2005 :  06:58:34 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by abdulmajid

in pakistan extremist are on the rise ( both religious extremists and pseudo-liberals), moderates are on the receiving end. when we don't agree with the ignorance of mullah, he questions our Iman. and when we don't join dirty liberal fanatics, they call us narrow minded. since both type of hardliners love to smash me that's why i consider myself a moderate (sure some will disagree ).




I agree with you. What is interesting is the behaviour of the so-called liberals who negate the very essence of liberalism. Instead of beliving in individual liberty and on the ability of individuals to structure their own society, they tend to bash anyone who doesn't agree with them as being narrow-minded. Oh, the irony..

At least the mullahs are who they claim to be.

---------------------------------------------------------
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.

Edited by - farazthegreat on Apr 04 2005 06:59:15 AM
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Desert Sleet
Senior

Pakistan
394 Posts

Posted - Apr 04 2005 :  2:58:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Desert Sleet's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by deezel



AOA All,

Im currently in the USA. I have lived in Pakistan all my life. I moved to the US for higher education. Im here in the US ever since (1998- to date)

I want know how all of u feel about Pakistan being modernized or Westernized?

I have Geo TV and ARY at subscription at home and I think we Paki's are more western/ modern than before atleast in my teenage time; Im 28.

Please post to this topic and enlighten all of us especially buddies from Pakistan






Pkistan today is a complete mess, a sad example of what can happen when a once-favored "frontline state" is reduced to the status of a cold war orphan. In his brief visit American President urged a quick return to civilian rule, but in fact few Pakistanis mourn Gen. Pervez Musharraf's overthrow of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's corrupt and oppressive pseudo-democracy. The poor and the secular-liberal intelligentsia pray that the new military regime will prevent a slide toward further chaos. These hopes are likely to be dashed, since the regime is paralyzed by internal divisions. Mohammed Aziz and Mahmoud Ahmed, the two key generals flanking Musharraf, are known for their sympathies with the fundamentalist Taliban.

Several tests confront the new strongman of Pakistan: Will he be able to modernize the economy and end the corruption and violence that plague the country's major cities? Has he the will to disarm the fundamentalist militias, which have been fighting a sectarian civil war for nearly three years, without disturbing the unstable equilibrium within the army? Will he be able to make peace with India? These are the questions that a US President visiting a decaying protectorate would have addressed if he were genuinely interested in the welfare of the country. In all three areas, however, Washington is incapable of providing guidance. The US/IMF neoliberal agenda forbids desperately needed economic reforms, Washington is deeply implicated in the rise of the fundamentalist groups through its multibillion-dollar aid to the Afghan mujahedeen, and America's failure to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty makes a mockery of its repeated demands that Pakistan and India sign the pact.
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20000417&s=ali
A basic modernization of Pakistan would include drastic land reform and a tax on wealth, increased state spending on primary and secondary education and healthcare, more public housing and the development of new medium-sized towns to decrease the pressure on large cities. A massive reduction in the military budget is crucial--roughly 6 percent of the country's GDP is devoted to the country's bloated military, about twice what is spent on education and health combined. And any serious political reform would include constitutional rights for women and minorities. The UN Development Program's gender empowerment measure, which rates gender inequality in areas of economic and political participation and decision-making, ranked Pakistan second worst in the world. Last year there were more than 1,000 "honor killings" of women.

In successive general elections, the people have consistently voted against hard-line religious parties. The strength of religious extremism, till now, has been derived from state patronage rather than popular support. The groups that are currently paralyzing the country were the creation of the late and unlamented Gen. Mohammed Zia ul-Haq, who received Saudi petrodollars and political, military and financial support from the United States and Britain throughout his years as dictator, from 1977 to 1988. The West needed Zia to fight its war against the former Soviet Union after that country invaded Afghanistan in 1979. Nothing else mattered. The CIA turned a blind eye to the sale of heroin, supposedly to fund that war, and the results are hideous: The number of officially registered heroin addicts in Pakistan rose from 130 in 1977 to 30,000 in 1988. Now there are several million addicts.

I did referenced my post, But mistakengly i pasted it in the middle for which i am sorry folks.



---------------------------------------------
“Little minds are tamed and subdued by misfortune; but great minds rise above it.”

Edited by - Desert Sleet on Apr 05 2005 02:45:55 AM
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farazthegreat
Semi Senior

Canada
208 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2005 :  02:21:58 AM  Show Profile
Desert Sleet. If you are going to copy another person's article, at least give credit to the original author. Don't plagarise. I respect you as an intelligent member but 90% of your posts are nothing but a google search followed by a copy-paste job.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20000417&s=ali

Edit: Saw your edit, fair enough

---------------------------------------------------------
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.

Edited by - farazthegreat on Apr 06 2005 05:06:40 AM
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poor_ophie
Unregistered Trainee

9 Posts

Posted - Apr 07 2005 :  4:13:45 PM  Show Profile
Dear D.S ......... I've been dormant for quite a while and I'll be dormant till your obnoxious presence here ……. But still I would like to say that you don’t have a right to call Pakistan a “complete mess” while you are living outside somewhere in a havened island. Why don’t you move your sorry butt right in the middle here and face the music ……… In my opinion you are with those idiots who have already bought front seat tickets to watch a show of drowning our ship. Now the show is not starting as expected and it is making you freaking out. Sorry mate ……. You’ll have to wait for ever ……. If you can’t join our country then you can at least refrain yourself to make negative comments about us and I’ll be personally thankful to you for this………now you may go ahead and give my attitude some unheard terminology and discuss it for rest of your miserable life……..
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Desert Sleet
Senior

Pakistan
394 Posts

Posted - Apr 07 2005 :  8:35:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit Desert Sleet's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by poor_ophie

Dear D.S ......... I've been dormant for quite a while and I'll be dormant till your obnoxious presence here ……. But still I would like to say that you don’t have a right to call Pakistan a “complete mess” while you are living outside somewhere in a havened island. Why don’t you move your sorry butt right in the middle here and face the music ……… In my opinion you are with those idiots who have already bought front seat tickets to watch a show of drowning our ship. Now the show is not starting as expected and it is making you freaking out. Sorry mate ……. You’ll have to wait for ever ……. If you can’t join our country then you can at least refrain yourself to make negative comments about us and I’ll be personally thankful to you for this………now you may go ahead and give my attitude some unheard terminology and discuss it for rest of your miserable life……..


Yeah, I know, Mr.Ophie. But I was just doing my part to help in this thread of flames for you...

Seriously, the real difference in opinions here is often whether or not we trust the State. I am an enemy of the state, you are a friend. But that is just what you think. The other end of the telescope makes you little people and not worth crushing to the monsters you adore. Challenge them or find fault with their force-fed statism and they will turn and rend you...

And just to clear the difference of opinion. That wasnt my article, so check the link http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20000417&s=ali

I am leaving this one open for you, if you still want to have some flaming debate then please dont hesitate to post here.


---------------------------------------------
“Little minds are tamed and subdued by misfortune; but great minds rise above it.”
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farazthegreat
Semi Senior

Canada
208 Posts

Posted - Apr 08 2005 :  02:09:08 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by poor_ophie

Dear D.S ......... I've been dormant for quite a while and I'll be dormant till your obnoxious presence here ……. But still I would like to say that you don’t have a right to call Pakistan a “complete mess” while you are living outside somewhere in a havened island. Why don’t you move your sorry butt right in the middle here and face the music ……… In my opinion you are with those idiots who have already bought front seat tickets to watch a show of drowning our ship. Now the show is not starting as expected and it is making you freaking out. Sorry mate ……. You’ll have to wait for ever ……. If you can’t join our country then you can at least refrain yourself to make negative comments about us and I’ll be personally thankful to you for this………now you may go ahead and give my attitude some unheard terminology and discuss it for rest of your miserable life……..



Lenin spent most of his life in exile, came back and changed his country forever. You can't say somebody outside of Pakistan is not as patriotic as you are.

---------------------------------------------------------
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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Sahar_M
Semi Senior

Pakistan
274 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2005 :  10:40:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Sahar_M's Homepage
=))
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cpa_guy
Unregistered Trainee

22 Posts

Posted - Jun 07 2005 :  11:32:57 AM  Show Profile
what exactly is westernization? somehow our definition of westernization seems to stall at women. More co-mingling of the sexes or no dupattas are commonly cited as effects of westernization. if we really want westernization we first need to make our government accountable to the people. Then let's take it from there.
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zaree1
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
10 Posts

Posted - Jun 07 2005 :  12:57:53 PM  Show Profile  Send zaree1 a Yahoo! Message
it is much better to be modernised than follow the present culture of greed mistrust and hunger for power followed by MMA in Pakistan

zee khan
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Sahar_M
Semi Senior

Pakistan
274 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2005 :  03:52:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit Sahar_M's Homepage
acah , replying to ur original topic n ignoring rest of the posts .
i personally feel , being a **** teenager , hvning spent last 3 yrs in abroad n now bk in pk.

i am sorry to say pakistan is worse off than be4 . it has tried to adopt the western trends n has indeed forgotten its own identity. in
terms of infrastructure n (may be) ecnomically we might be beta off than be4 but whts the point of all tht if we become a more corrupted nation day by day. we ant gud muslims , ppl hv been mislead by foreign media for so long kay now unhay achay or buray ki tameez hi nahi rahi ,every thing tht used to be considered wrong 5-3 yrs bk has now become a part of us , n there r a very few ppl left to whom those wromg still strikes as wrong.

i guess thereason behind it being tht jab app aik galt kam dekhaty ho though its a very minor thing ,in the begining u feel its wrong per gradually ur mind starts accepting the wrong as right n no longer feel tht its wrong so the wrong things r passed on to us( the teenagers) n we treat it as normal n the cycle has been going on since
long. n now most of us hv reached tthe extrems, cos chooti choori hi
bari choori ko lead karti ha , thts y we r adviced to say wrong to the
slightest bad deed we see. [ab this is also a whole hadees.it will
become too long so i will skip i....., first dil may kaho ,hat say
rooko , zaban say rooko yah atleat dil may hi buray ko bura kaho.]
hv forgot wht i was here to say , kahar , pk according to me is worst off than be4 in terms of thazeeb n rawait.
if u go through the histroy of mankind u will observe tht every nation has suffered as we r , n we can only hope n work towards the future.



Y is the WorLd so full of ..............FOOLs ?????? n y am I one of them : ( .

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IRFAN IKHTIAR
Unregistered Trainee

Australia
3 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2005 :  09:24:17 AM  Show Profile  Send IRFAN IKHTIAR an AOL message
it is much better to be modernised than follow the present culture of greed mistrust and hunger for power followed by MMA in Pakistan

zee khan


ASSALAMALEKUM,
I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THE POINT OF MR/MS ZEE KHAN. MMA IS THE ONLY PARTY WHICH CAN HELP PAKISTAN COME OUT OF THIS MESS I THINK THAT WE ARE TRYING (IN FACT NOT TRYING)WE ARE MORE MODERNIZED THAN THE WESTERN COUNTRIES EAXMPLES ARE CELEBARATING VALENTINE'S DAY MOST OF YOU KNOW ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE VALENTINE DAY. MOTHERS DAY,FATHERS DAY,BASANT DAY,NEW YEAR DAY, THIS DAY AND THAT DAY BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE BIRTH DAY OF OUR PROPHET SAW WE SPEND ALL OUR TIMES SLEEPING IN BED OR WATCHING INDIAN MOVIES.WHAT WE DID IN AFGHANISTAN WE KILLED OUR BROTHERS WITH OUR OWN HANDS.WHAT WE DID IN NWFP THE PEOPLE PAKISTAN ARMY KILLED WERE NOT TERRORIST THEY WERE JUST THE MUJAHADDIEN AND THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING IN PAKISTAN.BUT NO ONE SAID A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THAT EXCEPT MMA.I AM CURRENTLY LIVING IN AUSTRALIA FOR ABOUT 1 YEAR AND I REALLY FEEL TO BE ASHAMED TO BE CALLED A PAKISTANI BECAUSE WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY AND WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW WITH OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES.AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO CALLED MMA IS A BUNCH OF FANATIC AND EXTREMIST PEOPLE AT LEAST THEY RAISE THE VOICE AGAINST THE CRIME ATLAEST THEY DO A PROTEST AGAINST WHAT HAPPENED IN AMERICA WITH OUR HOLLY BOOK,ATLEAST MMA IS BETTER THAN MQM WHICH HAS GIVEN PAKISTAN NOTHING BUT KILLINGS,STRIKES,DISCRIMNATION MQM HAS DESTROYED OUR TWO GENERATIONS IN ALL THESE THINGS.AND ATLEST MMA IS STILL RAISING THE VOICE ON WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE ALL OVER THE WORLD AND IN PAKISTAN TOO AGAINST MUSLIMS.
THE BIGGEST JIHAD IS TO RAISE THE VOICE AGINST AN EVIL GOVERNMENT/PERSON IT'S NOT ME SAYING IT'S OUR BOOK WHO HAS SAID THIS.

IF YOU CALLED THIS FANTISIM OR EXTERIMISIM OR TERRORISM THAN I AM PROUD TO BE ONE.

IF I OFFENDED SOMEONE THAN I AM EXTREMELY SORRY FOR THAT.PLEASE REMEMBER ME IN YOUR PRAYERS.

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Hashim
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
15 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2005 :  12:05:16 PM  Show Profile  Send Hashim an AOL message  Send Hashim a Yahoo! Message
Salam!
Yes! it seems that Pakistan is going to be westernized..Our youth like to be western as they eat western they see western they wear western etc..OH!! in which direction Pakistan is going what will be the end result..Modernization is not bad but Werternization is dangerous..Do our Islam forbid us from Modernization,i think no!We can see our FOUR Fikka which came into existance with the change of TIME when society grew and situation became more complex then these Fikka came into existance..
We are in Pre-Imam Mehdi Era and Muslims are passing thru the worest conditions..in some situations many of us do not know what to do according to Islam at this juncture everbody fits a Aayat/Hadiss according to his limited knowledge and argues with others that he is absolutely right..no doubt he would be right as he is following the Aayat/Hadiss but he cannot claim that he is Absolutely right as he does not know that the Aayat/Hadiss best fits at that particular situation..
Now what should be done?..

«•´`•.(*•.¸(`•.¸ ¸.•´)¸.•*).•´`•»
«................. HASHI .................»
«•´`•.(¸.•*(¸.•´ `•.¸)*•.¸).•´`•»
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Sahar_M
Semi Senior

Pakistan
274 Posts

Posted - Jun 16 2005 :  12:03:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit Sahar_M's Homepage



Y is the WorLd so full of ..............FOOLs ?????? n y am I one of them : ( .

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