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 AUNTI MAULANA ABDUL-AZEEZ - INCIDENT OF SHAME
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 05 2007 :  12:26:17 PM  Show Profile
Dears,

I, in some of my earlier posts, tried to condemn the acts of the management of Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa and the threats to the population of a civilized city and the government writ, announced/given by two Maulana's i.e. Mr. Abdul-Azeez and Mr. Abdul-Rahseed.

So much has been discussed on various tv channels regarding their back ground, incident of their father's mysterious murder, their limited particpation in Afghan Jehad, their earlier terrorist activities, support of Mr. Ejaz-ul-Haq and his demised father Zia-ul-Haq to them and their rigidity on various issues.

However, one thing was appearing to much from their attitude that they were not going to agree on any thing with the government. The MAJOBOOR female students of Jamia (declared as Ninja Fighters by BBC) and LA-WARIS kids of the Mosque Madrissa were being used for their own intents and benefits.

This all situation coupled with the terrorist activities of Jamia/Lal Majid people in the shape of kidnapping the people and murdering the army man / general people and setting to fire the government buildings etc resulted to the current operation instituted by the government.

Mr. Abdul Azeez was again and again talking about the oath to get shahadat and not to leave their stance at any cost. He, some moments before the news of his arrest, was exclaiming to be extremely ready for death which in his view was shahadat. He was also exclaiming to have seen so many dreams where The Prophet PBUH asked him to do this all NAOOZBILLAH. Reportedly he was also maintaining a diary of such dreams. He said that Prophet PBUH said to him in his dream (NAOOZBILLAH) that his blood will bring the revolution.

However, the world saw that how shamefully this man ABDUL AZEEZ was captured wearing a veil like a female. He was appearing to be a RAT captured by a number of CATS when he was pushed into the car. The females surrounding him said to the law enforcers that he was their AUNTI. I wonder how a true muslim to whom the Prophet PBUH has given the order of getting shahadat can become a helpless AUNTI in this way. This is extremely a shameful act.

He was appearing like Saddam Hussain when he was captured from a hole in the land. However, their still remains a difference between the SADDAM HUSSAIN and ABDUL AZEEZ. Saddam after his arrest did not cried to anybody to do something to save his life. But this man, Abdul Azeez soon after his arrest (accidently met) to Mr. Ejaz-ul-Haq and said by crying loudly that "Please do something for me". It is extremely shameful for a person who was using the name of Prophet PBUH and was using the name of Islam and was motivating a number of innocent as well as terrorist students (both categories were in this Jamia and Mosque) to give their lives for the sake of their mission.

I wonder how these people could be called ULEMAS by us and why some of us so strictly try to save their skins.

This act at his part left no difference between AUNTI SHAMIM and AUNTI ABDULAZEEZ.

Let's see what the younger brother has to do in the absence of his AUNTI.

Best regards,

Always ready to face criticsm from rigid Maulvies,

Kamran.

Edited by - kamranACA on Jul 05 2007 12:36:23 PM

BeL@L
Junior

United Kingdom
54 Posts

Posted - Jul 05 2007 :  5:56:00 PM  Show Profile
I do agree with you, But i av some doubts on musharaf goverment as well. I think they just use them just to prove we did many things agaisnt terrorism and extremism in th eye of americans. Because why these things happening just in election year in the end of his teneur and 2ndly just to turn out people attention form CHIEF justice case too.

Many Thanks,
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Schuaeb
Partner

1119 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2007 :  10:14:22 AM  Show Profile  Send Schuaeb an ICQ Message
The attempt to escape from Abdul Hafeez could not be compated with Saddam's case, as it was much more shameful. At least Saddam had the courage to embrace death sentence like a man. (I'm never a supporter of Saddam).

I guess his dreams failed to reveal this shameful incident to him.

There are enough doubt that this all could be a government planned incident. However, I don't think it will heip the govt in gainning vote bank. The only purpose it may yield for the government is to show to Western lords that threat of Talibanization and religious extrmism is there in Pakistan, so Musharraf's govt is highly required until he completely crub the extremist groups.

Whether it was a govt planned incident or not, it has earned a very bad name to maulvis
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Muhammad Amir
Manager

Pakistan
886 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2007 :  11:37:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Muhammad Amir's Homepage  Send Muhammad Amir a Yahoo! Message
Please Don't take Anything negatively this was probably be my last post in this forum....

Well Dear KamranACA Sahib and others I deliberately try to avoid Posting in this topic in forum however as to the need of time there are something i need to clarify here so please read my full post Insha-Allah I will be able to remove your Mediaic Brain Washing....

First of all this Whole LAL MASJID case was self creation of the government of pakistan and their Agencies.....Then there are much much loop holes in media reportings this also uncover some backhand accoustomed acts......

LAL Masjid MOAZIN QARI AYUEB was the government salaried employee from "OWQAF"...he was the person who gave raise to this whole game.....

Moulana Abdul Aziz is already a Mentaly Disabled Person because when Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahib went to him that although he is 100% right on the stipulations he made to the Govt. however the procedures which he had addopted are not very fruitful....Moulana Adbul Aziz replied that when things have decided on heavens then the covenents of earth remain unadopted and that's why he will not accept Mufti Sahib' Views in this parlance.......

One thing more that is Moulana Abdul Aziz also said that he had given 300 Basharats from Heavens that He need to do Jehad against those who do not want ISLAMISATION......

This shows that he was mently distrubed person and still the why in which he was traeted in media i strongly condemn that one....

This whole drama just only become possible due to internal involvement of Secret Agencies in LAL Masjid and their unrestricted access to LAL Masjid.....How it possible to collect that much millitancy equipments in Capital of Pakistan where agencies are always exist with every person like "KIRAMAN KATIBEEN".....this whole drama has developped to flop LONDON APC....CJ's decision pending.....and to apprehend USA that "INTIHA PASAND"(Extremists) are there in pakistan and so that I(Musharraf) am the only person who can control these INTIHA PASANDS...and so My Parnership with BENAZIR can not able me to work that efficiently.....

As far as Moulana's Escape in Burqa is concerned this was another drama of agencies with "DARWEESH SIFT" Moulana Abdul Aziz...this was only to make mess of "SHUAIR-E-ISLAM" like "DARHEE( Beared)" and "BURQA"...and "PAGRII"....

My dear people remember one thing that criticising any one is eassier but my dears it is origianly very difficult yo cope with such situations.....

Dears Believe me that in this whole drama Moulana Abdul Aziz and his all students were Innocent People and these people had been used by the government agencies very effectively due to their SADGII..............
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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 09 2007 :  09:53:38 AM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
Dear all

It is very easy thing to criticise someone and self assessment is much more difficult. Normally it has been seen that people having no idea about the outcomes of what they are doing criticise someone. First of all that being a Muslim we should respect ULLAMA s as they are much superior than a layman. We are not allowed to pass such comments as by mr kamran as we dont know who is right and who is wrong. Only the God knows it. So please my friends dont say any thing which can become a hurdle for you in the AKHIRAH. Please dont write any more on this topic as we are not allowed to discuss these sort of topics because our simple mistake can take us away from heaven.

Regards

Imran
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 09 2007 :  12:34:23 PM  Show Profile
Dear Amir and Imran,

First of all the quetion aroused is of Mental disturbance of Mr. Abdul Azeez. I wonder how could people like you and like us have ever been following/praising the stipulations of mentally disturbed persons. Further, if the similar act would be done in two or three days by Rasheed Ghazi, would you also call him a mentally disturbed person? Then what the hell our beliefs are? We always try to give immense respect to all those men to whom we really feel AALIM or NOBLE. If any of our belief will go wrong then would we call any of such trusted man as mentally disturbed person. It is just a joke and an endeavor to save the skin of such maulvies from general discussion. Mental disturbance only worked to save his life from bullets and made him to refuge from the situation, that was created purely by him, leaving a number of innocent childern and females in the crises. What a purposeful mental disturbance is it?

I can agree that all such extremists are mentally disturbed but not in the way of an innocent mentally disturbed man. Mr. Amir said that there had been a big role of agencies in developing such minds. I fully agree to this point. I can just share an info which reached me through some official of ISI that every man who enters Islamabad, his vehicle number and timing of enterance is scanned at the checkposts by ISI (at Golra Shareef More and other places) and wherever required the doubted persons' information is checked in detail through NADRA or other resources. I dont know that whether or not this info is correct. However, I can believe that ISI and other agencies should have strict control on all intelligence informations. In the presence of a number of intelligence functioneries, such accumulation of ammunition and wanted criminals in LAL Masjid is really questionable.

Now coming to the issues that would be raised by other nations on BURQA and other Islamic signs. I agree that Yahood - o - Nasara always endeavor to harm the cause of Islam. Clear AHAADEES are available to guide us in this regard. But is it not quite shameful that all the efforts of Yahood-o-Nasara are always made using the hands of muslims? Would such muslims who create reasons to promote issues against Islam be announced as innocents. It is just ridiculous. Law is for every one and no one is above the writ of a government and law in an Islamic country. Very clear guidelines are available in Islam on these issues. No one can isolatedly define the rules and customs. IJMAH-e-Ummat is required to decide the conflicting matters. Islam is the most loving religion. It has laid down procedures for all the times to come. Negativity is never desired by Islam. Further, God prohibited muslim men to adopt the shape/outlook of women and prohibited women to adopt the shape of men. I wonder how Mr. Abdul Azeez adopted the outlook of a female by taking veil/BURQA? It is done by a Muslim and not by a Yahood. This is the thing which is more painful.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MEDIA BRAIN WASHING. MEDIA IS A BLESSING FOR THIS ERA, IF ANY ONE CAN UNDERSTAND. MAY GOD MAKE US TO UNDERSTAND THE THINGS CORRECTLY. (Ameen).

So many ULEMAs like Mufti RAfi Usman sahib, Maulana Taqi Usmani sahib, Mufti Naeem sahib, General secretary Wafaq-ul-Madaaris Maulana Haneef Jalandhry sahib, every one has made his best efforts to resolve the matter and to educate Mr. Rasheed Ghazi, but ever one has so far been failed. They showed no respect for any of these AALIMS.

These big names of ULEMA have declared them to be extremely on wrong path. When I said them wrong, it was not only my statement. I took the opinion of ULEMAs who are really the noble persons and who dont use the name of Islam for negative intents. Naoozbillah.

By the way I agree to Mr. Shoaib that the act of Mr. Abdul Azeez is more shameful than Saddam.

I cannot understand why Mr. Amir is leaving this forum. He is our brother and is always welcomed to the forum activities. Difference of views should not be a thing which can hurt us so strongly unless we personally abuse each other that is totally un-ethical. However, in general life one thing could be extremely worst or wrong for me but at the same time it could be a justified one for another. So be here Mr. Amir. We need you.

Best regards,

KAMRAN.

Edited by - kamranACA on Jul 09 2007 12:38:17 PM
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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 09 2007 :  1:23:19 PM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
MR KAMRAN

May be you are right at your opinion. My humble request was only that please dont use such words for an Alim. And who is right and who is wrong the final authority for chosing it rest with al mighty God. My brother i respect your feelings and my self i know that these are responsible for the death of innocent childrens but we people dont have enough information about the true story and to rate that who is wrong who is right. if they people are asking for safe passage why is govt not allowing them a safe passage. If you go back to islamic history what are the teachings of our Holy Prophet (PBUH). Fatah e Makkah is a good example to quote here. By giving them a safe passage dont they able to save lives of hundreds of innocent people? Or is there any other option left behind. i dont think so
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 09 2007 :  5:25:54 PM  Show Profile
Dear Imran,

I no where objected in giving them any forgiveness or safe passage. However, this has nothing to do with providing of safe passage. This is mainly the rigidity of Rasheed Ghazi. Mr. SHujaat Ch offered him to be given a house arrest in some government guest house with full respect and regard.

In my view this could have been a maximum which is offerable. Our Ulemas have given them such offers and have asked them to hand over the innocents to Ulemas for safe passage and further education and brought up. Similar offers have been given by Sameea Raheel Qazi and Respected Mrs. Bilqees Edhi.

Now if the question is of safety then why this safety is needed by Rasheed Ghazi and his terrorist friends alone. Is life precious only for these terrorists? They are using the name of Islam and in that way they cannot be compared with the KUFFAR-E-MAKKAH who were kaafir and did not knew/beleived anything about God and Religion. Rasheed Ghazi and his fellows are after all muslims and have a detailed knowledge on everything. They cannot be compared with WEHSHI and HINDA. Why they need lives only for theirselves and not for the childern and women made hostage by them. Why life is very much AZEEZ to Rasheed Ghazi and why he feels that if he has to die then every one has to die? Is it Islam? What the picture of Islam these guys (SO-CALLED AALIMS) are showing to the non-muslims world. These, I again say, are not from "YAHOOD - O - NASARA" . Rather, these are muslims and assuch have become a cause of shame for all of us.

I heard some ULEMAs on TV who were again and again saying that these guys should be given a free passage. As far as my own idealogy is concerned I am not against this option. I believe that forgiving someone is by all means a best act. This is proved by the world's historical ever best incident of FATAH MAKKAH. But now question is little bit different. These guys (muslims) have become the cause of death for so many innocents who were also muslims. Forgiveness with some warning could be (but not necessarily) deemed better for Abdul Azeez who did not much involve in fighting against the Governemnt. But the man who says that he has no regard for government, innocent lives, ULEMAS, his Teachers and his friends, and has became the cause of death for innocent muslims should not be forgiven.

Government cannot alone forgive these men without the consent of those innocents who lost their loving ones due to the malicious acts of Rasheed Ghazi and his fellows. President has a prerogative to offer such forgiveness under the constitution of Pakistan. But ethically now such forgiveness could be seeked from the affectees and not only from President.

I feel that if these men will be relieved they will become the cause of so many undesired incidents and anarchy within the country. I dont wish that the terrorist of Lal Masjid should be relieved. Yes, they should be arrested and dealt under applicable laws.

Anyways, I am just a viewer like you and can pray only for the betterment of my country and muslim Ummah.

Regards,

Kamran.
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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 10 2007 :  11:12:49 AM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
i also pray the same.
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Astute Accountant
Manager

Pakistan
660 Posts

Posted - Jul 10 2007 :  5:31:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Astute Accountant's Homepage
I don’t know who is right n’ who is wrong so I won’t side either of the parties but one thing I’m sure about is that this was a conspiracy against the Muslims. A question which is continuously bothering my mind is that how did all the “heavy weapons” come into the Capital? Where were all the law enforcing agencies at that time? Did they take the rocket launchers in the “burqaz”? Or were they so tiny to be transported in the “pockets”? When someone is constructing one’s home in a housing society n’ places some sand or bricks etc on the road, the housing authorities take a serious notice of it n’ ask them to vacant the road n’ at the same time also fines him; where was CDA when the students of Lal Mosque were constructing the bunkers, as the bunkers have been there for some time? Where the CDA officials sleeping at that time? Where the so-called world’s best investigating agencies ISI, was? Doesn’t it seem that it was all preplanned? Huh, not to say about the insecurity of the rest of the country, even the Capital is not safe.
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Astute Accountant
Manager

Pakistan
660 Posts

Posted - Jul 10 2007 :  5:34:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Astute Accountant's Homepage
The “drama” being played by the enemies of Islam n’ Pakistan, seems to end very soon now. The “Director, Producer n’ all the other characters of the Drama” are wise enough to have connected all the episodes in a timely manner n’ have played a major role to conclude it “successfully” n’ surely they would have achieved the “desired results” in the form of worsening the image of Islam, Muslims n’ Pakistanis.
“A big shame on every such Pakistani who has taken part in this “bhondi” activity” n’
“May the Directors, Producers, characters n’ all those involved in making this Drama a ‘hit drama’ be directed to hell n’ remain there forever”. Amin . . . . . . . . .!!!

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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 11 2007 :  10:04:09 AM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
Aur akhir kar drama khatam ho gia. Bakol hamaray moderate aur roshan khayal bahio k molk say dehshatgard khatam hoa gaye aur halak ho gaye. in logo ko askariat pasand, dehshat gard sirf is lye kaha gia qk woh shahriah nafiz karna chahtay they. woh zana k khilaf awaz utha rahay they aur zana k aday band karna chahtay they. woh mulk say fahashi khatam karna chahtay they. Sirf yeh guna tha k un ka tarika khalt tha. Par kia khalt tariqay ka istimal sahi maqasidk lye kia gia yeh un kee saza the. Mujay afsoos gen Musharaf par ya hakomat par nahi sirf un logo par hota hey jo in ko dehshat gard intiha pasand kehtay hey. Kitnay afsos kee bat hey. Hadees sharif ka mafhom hey k agar ap boraye ko rook nahi saktay tu sirf us ko dil may he bura jan lo yeh iman ka adna darja hey. i know k un logo k dillo ko kafi sakon milla ho ga jo khud ko moderate kehtay hey roshan khayal. Sachaye kia hey Allah behtar janta hey par kia itnay masoom logo kee janu ka in jalmo say badla nahi lia jaye ga.
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Cool Lioness
Junior

United Arab Emirates
108 Posts

Posted - Jul 11 2007 :  3:06:05 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by kamranACA

Dear Amir and Imran,

First of all the quetion aroused is of Mental disturbance of Mr. Abdul Azeez. I wonder how could people like you and like us have ever been following/praising the stipulations of mentally disturbed persons. Further, if the similar act would be done in two or three days by Rasheed Ghazi, would you also call him a mentally disturbed person? Then what the hell our beliefs are? We always try to give immense respect to all those men to whom we really feel AALIM or NOBLE. If any of our belief will go wrong then would we call any of such trusted man as mentally disturbed person. It is just a joke and an endeavor to save the skin of such maulvies from general discussion. Mental disturbance only worked to save his life from bullets and made him to refuge from the situation, that was created purely by him, leaving a number of innocent childern and females in the crises. What a purposeful mental disturbance is it?

I can agree that all such extremists are mentally disturbed but not in the way of an innocent mentally disturbed man. Mr. Amir said that there had been a big role of agencies in developing such minds. I fully agree to this point. I can just share an info which reached me through some official of ISI that every man who enters Islamabad, his vehicle number and timing of enterance is scanned at the checkposts by ISI (at Golra Shareef More and other places) and wherever required the doubted persons' information is checked in detail through NADRA or other resources. I dont know that whether or not this info is correct. However, I can believe that ISI and other agencies should have strict control on all intelligence informations. In the presence of a number of intelligence functioneries, such accumulation of ammunition and wanted criminals in LAL Masjid is really questionable.

Now coming to the issues that would be raised by other nations on BURQA and other Islamic signs. I agree that Yahood - o - Nasara always endeavor to harm the cause of Islam. Clear AHAADEES are available to guide us in this regard. But is it not quite shameful that all the efforts of Yahood-o-Nasara are always made using the hands of muslims? Would such muslims who create reasons to promote issues against Islam be announced as innocents. It is just ridiculous. Law is for every one and no one is above the writ of a government and law in an Islamic country. Very clear guidelines are available in Islam on these issues. No one can isolatedly define the rules and customs. IJMAH-e-Ummat is required to decide the conflicting matters. Islam is the most loving religion. It has laid down procedures for all the times to come. Negativity is never desired by Islam. Further, God prohibited muslim men to adopt the shape/outlook of women and prohibited women to adopt the shape of men. I wonder how Mr. Abdul Azeez adopted the outlook of a female by taking veil/BURQA? It is done by a Muslim and not by a Yahood. This is the thing which is more painful.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MEDIA BRAIN WASHING. MEDIA IS A BLESSING FOR THIS ERA, IF ANY ONE CAN UNDERSTAND. MAY GOD MAKE US TO UNDERSTAND THE THINGS CORRECTLY. (Ameen).

So many ULEMAs like Mufti RAfi Usman sahib, Maulana Taqi Usmani sahib, Mufti Naeem sahib, General secretary Wafaq-ul-Madaaris Maulana Haneef Jalandhry sahib, every one has made his best efforts to resolve the matter and to educate Mr. Rasheed Ghazi, but ever one has so far been failed. They showed no respect for any of these AALIMS.

These big names of ULEMA have declared them to be extremely on wrong path. When I said them wrong, it was not only my statement. I took the opinion of ULEMAs who are really the noble persons and who dont use the name of Islam for negative intents. Naoozbillah.

By the way I agree to Mr. Shoaib that the act of Mr. Abdul Azeez is more shameful than Saddam.

I cannot understand why Mr. Amir is leaving this forum. He is our brother and is always welcomed to the forum activities. Difference of views should not be a thing which can hurt us so strongly unless we personally abuse each other that is totally un-ethical. However, in general life one thing could be extremely worst or wrong for me but at the same time it could be a justified one for another. So be here Mr. Amir. We need you.

Best regards,

KAMRAN.





quote:
Originally posted by Imran

MR KAMRAN

May be you are right at your opinion. My humble request was only that please dont use such words for an Alim. And who is right and who is wrong the final authority for chosing it rest with al mighty God. My brother i respect your feelings and my self i know that these are responsible for the death of innocent childrens but we people dont have enough information about the true story and to rate that who is wrong who is right. if they people are asking for safe passage why is govt not allowing them a safe passage. If you go back to islamic history what are the teachings of our Holy Prophet (PBUH). Fatah e Makkah is a good example to quote here. By giving them a safe passage dont they able to save lives of hundreds of innocent people? Or is there any other option left behind. i dont think so



Mr Kamran i agree to you on some of the things. Like when u say about role of Media (only private tv channels and not PTV) and respect of Ulemas, wrong way of Ghazi brothers. But i will not second the govt operation against these people. Being a viewer, i can see, and it was obvious to many others that Ghazi Rasheed was much willing to fianlize the matter with talks only. He was the actuall person who was trying to avoid the blood shed. He got much flexible. But i am sorry that our govt was hard as stone. Musharaf had planned everything before hand and wanted to bring them to death at any cost. This thought is entirely shameful and not friendly at all. He did a cruel act and he should be punished hard for this. Majority of Pakistan public, including all Ulema'e Deen, were in favor of leting them go, forgiving them, or agreeing to their demands. If there was someone not agreeing, that was Musharaf and ofcourse Mr. Bush.

I wont talk much about Moulana Abdul Aziz, as i did not find him a genuine person, as far as my face reading and judgment is concerned. bUt Late Ghazi RAsheed seemed to be much soft hearted and sensible person. he was true and loyal to his students and that is why he did not leave them all alone. i heard on ARY One, that Imam of Kabba said that there was a person who played an important role in creating misunderstandings between the two brothers. He avoided to disclose the name of that person.

I am also in the favor that there were definitely govt agencies or high personals involoved in all this matter but i believe that only innocents got killed and the culprits, the responsibles, once again came out of everything with clean hands.

I dont have anything to do with Ghazi brothers, neither with Govt but as an out veiwer, i strongly feel that Govt had been totally wrong in her actions and this makes the Late Ghazi Rasheed blameless. He will be always remembered in good words.
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Cool Lioness
Junior

United Arab Emirates
108 Posts

Posted - Jul 11 2007 :  3:16:56 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Astute Accountant

The “drama” being played by the enemies of Islam n’ Pakistan, seems to end very soon now. The “Director, Producer n’ all the other characters of the Drama” are wise enough to have connected all the episodes in a timely manner n’ have played a major role to conclude it “successfully” n’ surely they would have achieved the “desired results” in the form of worsening the image of Islam, Muslims n’ Pakistanis.
“A big shame on every such Pakistani who has taken part in this “bhondi” activity” n’
“May the Directors, Producers, characters n’ all those involved in making this Drama a ‘hit drama’ be directed to hell n’ remain there forever”. Amin . . . . . . . . .!!!





Amin - Summ Amin

i wish i see them getting an Ibratnaak punishment in this world too.

This is true that Pakistan mein last few years mein Fahashi bohat ziyada bharr gaiee hai. This is the result of Musharaf's so called Modern islam charcha. Our religion Islam is fully fit for all type of eras, periods - modern or backward.
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sajid naveed khan
Semi Senior

200 Posts

Posted - Jul 11 2007 :  4:26:21 PM  Show Profile
Jis shan say wo Maqtal main Gia,
Wo Shan Slamit Rahni Hay,
Yah jan to aani Jani Thi,
Iss jan ki koi parwa nahi.

Dedicated to Maulana Abd-ul-Rasheed Ghazi
Shaheed-e- Islam
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Schuaeb
Partner

1119 Posts

Posted - Jul 11 2007 :  7:30:21 PM  Show Profile  Send Schuaeb an ICQ Message
Wow!! Thats what I could say after reading these posts.

Just what I can assess at the end of this drama is we people are predisposed to results and only find means to justity the conclusions we have drawn in our mind.

The general psyche is that defend the Ghazi brothers and blame the government. We don't have got the ability to understand that while evaluating the results of this particular event we can't at the same time blame the government and agencies for this predetermined drama and called the maulvis shaheeds. Do try to understand what I wanted to say.

If it was a drama planned by the government and agencies, then ghazi brothers are the ones who should be blammed first. In this case they are government spys in guise of maulanas. If it is the case they should be cursed for earning the bad name to ulamas, Pakistan and whole Muslim Nation. I don't know how one who says that it was a planned drama could support the ghazi brothers. Muslims have to look at things with a broader mind, anything that attaches Islam to it may not always be right.

If someone says it is a genuine incident and then he supports the gahzis then atleast he is to a little extent justfied. At least he is not a confused mind messing up contradicting things. However, majority of evidence are in the favour of proving that it was a pre planned event.

Another important thing to look at is the students who were declared mujahids in the begining were later on used as hostages to save his own life. What could be more SHARAMNAK then this. Didn't you people see their parents weaping outside for seven days. If someone deliberately wants to keep his eyes close may Allah help him.

A person or a group who has challenged the writ of the state should never be given a safe passage. Similar examples are there from history. By giving them a safe way out the govt. is getting blackmailed by them and is paving path for more such incidents.

This is not what JIHAD is...........please try to understand.
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Schuaeb
Partner

1119 Posts

Posted - Jul 11 2007 :  7:39:45 PM  Show Profile  Send Schuaeb an ICQ Message
And Amir don't leave the forum you are required here as much as anyother member.

Agreed that there might be somethings which may defeat your set of beliefs and would be much irritating for you. But one has to face people of differing opinions, and this could give place to some open mindedness.

Always here to someone who has a totally different opinion.
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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 12 2007 :  10:32:21 AM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
offcourse this is not the exact Jihad. But also we should not use such harsh words for these people.
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 12 2007 :  5:22:03 PM  Show Profile
Dears,

As coollioness said, Ghazi Rasheed's face always showed him a soft person. I agree that government and its agencies should have controlled the harvesting of such a big incident in capital city. It's totally a failure of these all agencies. It's either their failure or every thing has been cultivated as per their own desires. The guys who were created for own benefits of agencies after all have been sacrificed. I dont at all (as far as my own views are concerned) deem them to be AALIMS. This all may or may not be a drama but of course the poor have been sacrificed.

Rasheed Ghazi should have agreed to the governmental offers of house arrest to save his life and lives of other hundreds among whom there might be a number of innocents who have ultimately died due to wrong decisions.

I think government should have waited for some more time (when already time of seven days was given) and operation should have been delayed to wait for all possibilities.

I really feel greatest sorrow for all deaths of innocents.

However, the government was pushed to the corner by LAL MASJID people by their acts and they cannot be totally relieved from the responsibility of what has happened at Islamabad.

Safe passage must have not been given and for that I appreciate the government. If it has ever been given, it was not a correct decision. There is no question for any safe passage. I have great respect for the big names of Ulemas but of course they are not in government and they cannot feel how it could be felt if writ of government is crushed under the feet of few Maulvies so badly. This incident has further ruined the face of Pakistan in internatioanl arena.

At the end I pray for the betterment of Pakistan and muslim Ummah. I also pray for the easier aakhirat and forgivness of God for all those who lost their lives in this incident.

Regards,

Kamran.
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sajid naveed khan
Semi Senior

200 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2007 :  10:33:50 AM  Show Profile
kamran sahib main aap say aur un sab logon say chand swalat karna chahon ga jo Lal Masjid Adn.aur un k students k baray main inthai dehtai k sath tauheen ameez wording use kar rahay hain.aur mujay 100% yaqeen hay kay inn sub kay jawab aap k pass nahin or no k ilawa kuch nahi ho gay.
1. kia aap kabhi lal masjid k gate tuk b gaye hain?
2. Kia aap Maulana Abdul Rasheed shaheed aur MAulana Abdul Aziz Say Milay hain?
3.Kia aap nay un logon ka maukaf suna hay jinhon nay apnay students ki aur apni janain aur apnay waldain (Father and Mother Of maulana Bros.)bachon beta Hasan, Bhanja Inam -ul-Haq and others iss noble cause means Islam ki sar bulandi k liay janain dee?
4.kia aap uss maan ka dukh jaan saktay hain jis ki teen batian iss wakia main Allah ko Pyari ho gain (She is a resident of G-6 i personaly met her)?
5.agar aap inn baton say bhi nawakif hain kah yah kin ki sazish hay aur iss main kis ko dili khusi naseeb hui to phir aap un logon k baray main iss tarah ki harsh wording kaisay use kar saktay hain?
6.Kia aap nay Maulana Sahib k dil main Jhank kar Daikha tha kah wo LAL Masjid say q Niklna chahtay thay jo aap log un k liay itnay tauheeen ameez word KHUDA k khof ko balay-e-taq rakh kar use kar rahay hain?
aap jo baat bhi tasdeeq kay baghair karain aap bilkul ghalt karaun gay?aur aap jo bhi un par ilzam tasdeeq k bghair lagain gay aap un par buhtan lagain gay aur buhtan ki saza ka shayed aap logo ko abhi sahi tarah say andaza nahi hay.
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2007 :  2:40:14 PM  Show Profile
Dear,

I know laughing on such questions is immoral otherwise these questions require only a smiling face in response. However, I appreciate your concern for the cause of Islam and the pain you are feeling on innocents' death.

Mr. Khan, this is a very long story if we go in details and, in my view, requires face to face discussions of so many sessions. I have so many answers to your questions and so many counter questions. This forum is a very short place to debate on the things you have highlighted. This by no means should be construed as to lack of answers in response to your childlike (I dont say childish) queries. Forum means for expressing one's views, whether or not these are acceptable for others. One cannot just stop the flow of ideas in and out of other's mind. You cannot put a cap on the thoughts against such rigids. Just like that I cannot stop you from taking their side. I again say that it is a very long story.

There was an era when these sort of Ulemas gave a FATWAH that whoever would agree that human has gone to moon will lose his NIKAH. I swear on my life that I have seen and met those people who were used to give much importance to this FATWAH. To such a rigid (who was Afridi of northern area), I once questioned that why you dont agree that human can go to moon. He said moon is very distanced and it is not possible for a human to reach it and that it is not acceptable to wisdom as well. I asked him a counter question, "Can you accept that water runs through a pipe"? He said yes. I asked why? He replied because there is a space for water to pass through. I then asked him can ur wisdom accepts that something can run from a hard iron wire just as water runs through the pipe? He said NO. Then I asked can u accept that some unseen power runs through the conductor of electricity in the style of water and can do so much with its power and can even kill you? I further said, if you cannot belive then just catch a conductor or wire and give your comments? He was seeing me suspeciously and declared that he should not contniue discussion with A BHATKA HUA PERSON like me. Your queries are just like the response of that AFRIDI following the similar Aalims.

As so many of us say that we have seen nothing then we should not believe on it and we should not comment on it. Mr. Khan you should know that we believe on so much which we have never met, never seen, never talked and never apprehend. If everything should be based upon personal meetings and visualization then why you are beliving in ALLAH, in Islam, in Prophet Muhammad PBUH, why u r believing that Holy Quran is God's book? Why you believe on Jins and Malaika? Why? ALHAMDOLILLAH I beleive on this all becoz I know for having a belief physical meeting, face to face discussion, visualization and bala bala is not a basic requirement. Can you deny this reality? Can you believe that on judgement day there would be sitting the Bhagwan Shiv OR Kali Mata instead of ALLAH TA'ALA SUBHANAHOO (Naoozbillah)? Can you think so while u have never met any one of them and never seen anyone of them? These are very crual questions and a very big heart is required to understand the situation. I am not messing up the things. Only you are laying down two different standards for similar things.

God has given the human a mind and perception and at so many places in Holy Quran God says that a MOMAN should concentrate on the things to understand them. There is no cap on concentrating the issues.

There had been no dethaai in any discussion against these so called Aalims. These are common men like us and are not the prophets Naoozbillah. You must understand it.

I dont appreciate their killings by government. I never did so. I am also not against the cause of Islam Naoozbillah. But I am totally against the way they adopted for the cause of Islam. I once earlier clarified that in this world punishments are based upon deeds/acts and not on intents. You may not grasp this concept but it is real. I said it may be crual but it is real.

Which Islamic education says that do not accept ur arrest, if u r accused, specially in a muslim country? Which Islamic education says that attack on rangers and fire out government properties? We have seen it on media and for God sake understand that every one does not lie. Which islamic education allows you to create state within state and announce the threat of suicidal attcks? Which islamic concept allows to retaliate the muslim army to this shameful extent.

By the way Mr. Khan they choosed their death by their hands. My heart also cries for the end but its resposnibility falls not only on the government but also on your SHAHEEDS who did not care for teh lives which are the AMAANAT of ALLAH and accepted such deaths.

Which objective their death would achieve? I think their lives would have caused so much to change positively, had they been trying it with positive minds. Pakistani Courts are not so bad and I firmly hope that Mr. Abdul Azeez would be relieved. I regret on the death of Rasheed Ghazi, he should have not opted it. No one was going to kill him as no one killed his brother. We should not deny the realities.

I dont deny form the casualities occured during this operation and I always condemned these killings. I never appreciated government's act. I only repeated that the way out of lal masjid people was not correct and on this earth punishments are sugessted for acts and not for intentions.

I have some guests here and may have another post to clarify the matter further.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Edited by - kamranACA on Jul 24 2007 3:08:29 PM
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sajid naveed khan
Semi Senior

200 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2007 :  3:54:27 PM  Show Profile
Main nay na to nikah tootnay ki baat kabhi lal masjid kay imam say suni aur na hi un logon nay suicide attacks ki baat ki lakin jub un par kisi dushman mulik ki tarah apnon nay hi charhai kar di to un logon nay fight trick k toor par use kia tha uss main unhon nay yah kaha tha "Agar hum par attack hua to bhar poor mzahmat karain gay"
iss say sakhat bayan main nay to nahi suna agar apkay pass iss ka record ho to mujay emailzaroor kar dejiaye ga bcz mera iss forum main aaj akhri din hay
moreover main yah nahi kahta kay iss tarzey amal say kisi nay b lashoon k siwa kuch mila lakin main yah b janta hoon kay iss Govt. nay apnay 7,8 salon main lashoon k siwa dia he kia hay.
main yah yakeen rakhta hoon kah un ki demand bilkul theek thee iss bat par mera yaqeen issi tarah attal hay jistarah Khuda ki mojodgi par lakin un ka tarika kar jo unhon nay iss k hasool k liaya apnaya "THORA" ghalt tha
main janta hoon kah aap meri baaton ko phir say serious nahi lain gay
lakin meri Dua hay k Allah Apko Sidha rasta dikhaye aur apko apni ghaltion ka jald ahsas ho jay AMEEN
Aur agar wkt milay to meray jaisay bhatkay huaon k liye dua kar dena
ALLAH HAFIZ
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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2007 :  4:05:48 PM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
Mr Sajid

First of all its my humble request to all my brothers not to write any thing in under this topic as the title it got is shamefull for any muslim. Secondly my brother no need to leave the forum due to this reason. I have discussed the issued with Mr Kamran almost more than 10 times but remains unsuccessfull to change his thoughts but the matter is every one has his own opinion and no one is willing to change his opinion either wrong or right (wrong in this case). Basically Mr Kamran is of thought that these people are terrorist. In simple word he has adopted the policy of Rushan khayal Muslim. You know some realities are very tough to accept but these are infact realities. Lal masjid issue is one amongst them. Only those can feel this pain who have a heart
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2007 :  5:34:03 PM  Show Profile
Dear Mr. Khan,

I recommend you to always stay at this forum. It is not a way out to leave the discussion. You are very much respectable for me. It is another matter that I dont agree to your view point.

When Bush Senior attacked on Iraq, Saddam became a hero of all muslims. These people always use the sentiments of others for their purposes. You know a lot of Pakistanies named their kids as Saddam Hussain. But time proved that what he was.

I dont have to cause distress for you or any other respected member of this forum. I only have variant view point which, if not agreed by you, should not be given importance by you.

Mr. Imran, you dont have to change my ideas similarly as I dont have any interest to change ur ideas. This is a discussion forum and is meant for the discussion of members of every belief and sect. Dont press any one personally to change his ideas. However, you must elaborate what you feel correct. You are always welcome. You rightly said in your message that:

" You know some realities are very tough to accept but these are infact realities."

I agree with this isolated statement.

At the end, I again mention that I would love to see posts from Mr. Khan as he is a very nice contributor.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Edited by - kamranACA on Jul 24 2007 5:35:59 PM
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Cool Lioness
Junior

United Arab Emirates
108 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2007 :  10:10:49 AM  Show Profile
Mr. Kamran is right that actions are punished and not the intentions. And in Lal masjid case since both parties were wrong in their ways to achieve their objective, so both were supposed to be punished. Govt is in power, so as it say Might is right, she took a wrong decision using her powers. I will say the our Govt and specially Mr. Musharaf is the murderer. I cannot believe that he is doing all this in nation's interest. His decisions, specially in regard of eliminating terrorism, are contiminited with foreign dirty intentions for Muslim and Islam as a whole.

Mr. Kamran in one of your post some where you said that why all army actions in nothern areas? I will tell you that pathans are known as much more religious if compared to others. Donot take my comment on defensive side. But its a truth known to all Pakistan. Where ever we see a pathan family, we know that they will be much careful about their ladies Pardas, namaaz, roza etc. If you look at their over all out look, for instance a pathan man, he will be always seen in qameez shalwar, with his shalwar up from his ankles, mostly a topi on his head (turbine in rural areas) and beard on his face. All of these things can be seen togetherly in a muslim only. Americans and others take them as hardcore muslims. Muslims who are rigid in their belives. Although it is absoloutely wrong concept and wrong way to judge. They have made Osama as role model for them. Who so ever looks to them like Osama, they are killing them. Pakistan has a full province known as NWFP full of such people whose appearence is like Osama. Do your mind accept that these people in NWFP, or nothern areas, whom we never know that how they have been living, what they do, how they are getting education, can be only TERRORISTS? Yes they are much behind from the people of other two provinces, Punjab and Sindh, but its not their fault. Its all Govt who never bothered to give attention to these areas. Either its nothern areas ar Sarhad province, majority of public is illiterate there. All big hospitals, universities, colleges, shoping centers, computer institutes, employment oppertunities, everything is centeralized in few cities of Punjab and Sindh.

It seems so unfair from the govt side that she never bothered to look into their needs, and when it comes to kill people then she has sent army there to kill them so bruetly. Asking for America's help. Mr Bush is a notorious personality in his own country. He is called as the worst person of the century. His regime is known as Blood Regime in US history. I would never even like to talk to such guy, accepting his order tou door kee baat hai.

A small incident i will like to share here. I had a colleague fron Canada. She was a divorced lady. She was much fond of photography. One day when she came to the office she told me that yesterday she got some photographs of a Pathan driver. She added that she did not imagine them to be so innocent people. The pathan guy stopped her taking photos when he listened the Azaan. She said that it was a lovely experience of talking to him and taking his pictures.

Regards
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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2007 :  10:45:42 AM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
Very well answered. Cool Lioness you should better add that operations is against those who can raise their voice against the cruel and wrong. Pathans are those. If you go through the history these people are those who never accept their defeat and fight till death. Basically through this operation Gen Musharaf not only is attaining favour from Yahod o Nisara but also making his position strong. In the battle there is a rule demolish all those who can harm you. that is what he is doing. after doing so he can very easily achieve his objectives which are right now to rule. Mania to rule is something which erases all things from one mind. He is then unable to distinguish between right and wrong. As mentioned by you the role of Bush, Musharaf is playing same role in Pakistan.
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Muhammad Amir
Manager

Pakistan
886 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2007 :  1:19:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Muhammad Amir's Homepage  Send Muhammad Amir a Yahoo! Message
Very Nice To see your posts Mr IMRAN and Ms COOL-LIONESS..Actually dear this PATHAN QUOM is very very religious and this could only possible because of SHUHADA-E-BALAKOAT tyhe two kings of JEHAD-E-BALAKOAT AGAINST FARANGIES Syed Ahmed SHAHEED and SHAH ISMAIL SHAHEED(REHIMATULLAH) and this QUOM had never been DEFEATED BY anyone just because of their E'MANI JAZBA and THIS QUOM is Basically Militant and one can't prove them as terrorists because ASLAHA RAKHNA SUNNAT-E-NABWI(SALLAHU-ALLIHI-WASSLAM) hay and you people might have awared to the fact that at the time of "WISAL" of our PROPHER HAZRAT MUHAMMAD(SALLAHU-ALLIHE-WASLLAM) there were 9 TALWARS in HUJRA of HAZRAT(AISHA SIDDIQA<RAZI-ALLAH TA'ALA ANHA>)....so just because of their militancy eqipments one can't labeled them as terrorists...

One thing more here I lot of time seen that Mr KAMRAN has very harsh views against TALIBANS Of MADERSA......

He don't know about Taliban and he is saying whatever he has been taught by ROSHAN KHYAL MEDIA...

I myself is strong supporter of TALIBANS and MUJAHEDDEN-E-KIRAM just because of whatever they are doing is in favour of whole Muslim Nations.....

This Taliban Tehreek was started with only 45 Mujahedeen-E-Kiram who were leaded my HAZRAT MULLAH OMER MUJAHID SAHIB(HIFZULLAH<May Allah Bless Him>)....and after the inception of this Tehreek whole AFGHAN Nation were with them...

So I Welcome Americans,PAkistani,SHUMALI ETIHAD and AFGHAN to come in Pakistan and see what their "HASHAR WILL BE"....

PERVEZ MUZALLAL Is DUSHMAN-E-ISLAM and he has full support of QADIYANIES and his "MUTAMID-E-KHAS" "TARIQ AZIZ QADIYANI" is very busy in dealing with BENAZIR(She really is benazir because i haven't seen huge DONKEY like face of her in my whole Life)....

Anyways this LAL MASJID OPERATION was in full support of QADIANAIES and these DUSHMAN-E-ISLAM and PAKSITAN are very happy after the SHAHADAT of 1500 (TALIBANS and TALIBATS)....

As far as Mr Kamran is concerned due to his ironic expressions regarding ULEMA-E-KIRAM No one even want to talk to him he always try to propagate "GHAMDIE VERSION" of Islam and i have no respect of him at all as far as Religious matter is concerned..however being my senior professional i have at the same time respect of him...

May Allah Subhan-Wa-Ta'ala give us courage to preach truth and may Allah help us to cope with Roshan Khayals..A'men Ya Rabal Alameen

Regrads,
A TALIB(of Knowledge)
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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2007 :  1:32:17 PM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
First of all "A HUJE WELLCOME BACK TO MR AAMIR". Thanks for being here and for your contributions. Please keep on contributing towards the truth as now a days people even dont have ability to face realities.
As per as Talibans are concerned i have very surprised that why these people dont look over the history. It is the same yahood o nisara who used these Talibans to achieve their mission against Soviet Union and now they call them as Terrorist. My simple Q to mr Kamran is why it is so?
And as in our Islam yahood o nisara can never be the friends of Muslims then why Gen Musharaf (Correctly called Muzallal) closes his eyes in front of them?
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2007 :  5:09:07 PM  Show Profile
Dears,

I appreciate every one's concerns for Islam and for the cause of Islam. It reqires very long answer to the above posts. However, I will not touch every area which I have in my mind. Further, it is the difference of idealogy and is not a personal concern of mine. I always try my best to keep my ownself out of the affects of any discussion regarding religion becoz it can lead to lack of impartiality.

Mr. Amir is welcome back and I dont have any regret for his inability to respect me or anybody else. This is one's interior which comes out when one becomes personal with others. I might have been personally doing so at some point of time as I am also a sinful human. However, Islam does not allow it and at least it must be avoided by the big exclaimers of being the true muslims.

One thing must be kept in mind by us. We should not leave the common respect within a community; otherwise stone is normally not replied by the flowers. It is very natural. I dont appreciate any one to use wrong words for Musharraf or Benazir or any one else. We can call them terrorist or roshan khayal or slaves of yahood or killers or crual etc etc but straight-a-way calling some one MUZALLAL or DONKEY is totally personalised and no where appreciated by Islam as well as civilized society. Moreover, one must not call any one as qadiyani or kafir just becoz his viewpoint is not in agreement with such persons. I dont think that Mr. Tariq Azeez is a qadiyani or Benazir is qadiyani (as her father was the person who declared qadiyanies as non-muslim), if Tariq Azeez would not be a qadiyani then it would appear to be ridiculous to call him as such. One can call him Musharraf's chaila, or government's broker or even roshan khayal or terrorist or killer or anything else but not the Kafir. It is a big allegation. If I have to be responsible and answerable to God for my statements and belief why the others do not feel that they are also responsible for their belief and statements whilst they also have claim of being very much in support of correct islam. Have they taken a certification of getting into Jannah ultimately.

Where I used the word AUNTI for Mr. Abdul Azeez, this was not a word created by me. Actually this word (as per media) was used by the female students of Jamia when Mr. Abdul Azeez was arrested. Reportedly, students said, "this is our aunti and is ill, so please let her go."

Miss Coollioness,

I agree with ur statement that

"In Lal masjid case since both parties were wrong in their ways to achieve their objective, so both were supposed to be punished. Govt is in power, so as it say Might is right, she took a wrong decision using her powers. I will say the our Govt and specially Mr. Musharaf is the murderer. I cannot believe that he is doing all this in nation's interest. His decisions, specially in regard of eliminating terrorism, are contiminited with foreign dirty intentions for Muslim and Islam as a whole."

Our all leaders have been following the instructions of USA or other powers. The big names of leaders saving the cause of Islam were also working on their instructions. Jehad-e-Afghan was basically supported by Pakistan on USA's orders being the biggest opponent of the then USSR. We sent our army in iraq on USA instructions. Our government was even thinking on to have relationships with Israel. This has ever been happening since the decades. The personal character of our leaders remained always questionable. These things have been existing since the very outset of Pakistan's independence.

I agree to all these things and for these I never supported army or politicians. I know this army (means its leaders) are the worst army over the world and our ploiticians are among the most dishonest ones in the world. It is not a hidden fact. I also agree that government should have not killed the Lal Masjid people. I am totally against these MAWARA-E-ADAALAT murders. My point is only to criticise the way out which the Lal Masjid people adopted. I said in this world intentions are not punished. Rather, acts are punished. Might be the intentions of Lal Masjid people were very much correct (I used the words "might be as I dont believe so) but the acts they did were not correct. Irrespective of whatever dishonesty has been spread in the roots of our departments, the acts of lal masjid people appeared to be incorrect. I am not alone who gives this statement. Imam-e-Kaba and Muftian-e-kiram including Mufti Rafi Usmani Sahib, Mufti Naeem Sahib and Maulana Taqi Usmani sahib have openly decalred the version of Lal Masjid people. As far as this matter is concerned, my opinion does not collide with the opinion of renowned Ulema-e-Kiram of Pakistan. I take guidance from their statements. I also apply my own mind (that may lead to wrong conclusions) as Holy Quran orders me to do so. I am also a biggest supporter of concept of rule of law. In my view government should have not killed them. They should have been arrested, given due respect as a muslim and as a leader of some persons and be presneted before a court having jurisdiction over this matter for correct justice.

As far as punishment of government is concerned, the persons who did the injustice will be responsible one day for their acts. I have belief on it. But the Pathans, u mentioned have no right to kill those who have nothing to do with the decision making of government high ups. You know, as per reports, the so-called Ulemas distributed the tickets of Jannah (physically, if u can believe it) among the suicidal attackers. This is ridiculous. To whom you are going to kill. Innocent muslims who had nothing to do with lal masjid killings. If government was a wild animal then who are you? What loss it will make for Musharraf? Why we dont think about it? I can tell u why.

Miss Coollioness, you said:

All big hospitals, universities, colleges, shoping centers, computer institutes, employment oppertunities, everything is centeralized in few cities of Punjab and Sindh."

The facilities you said are concentrated in few cities of sindh and punjab is not a correct statement. There is a difference in the population of four provinces which to some extent shows this imbalancement. However, in NWFP, Peshawar, Noshehra, Mardan, Abbotabad, Nathiagali (even Murre is near to NWFP boundries), Mansehra etc are the renowned cities and every such facility which is available in punjab is also available there. I have personally visited all these areas.
You can see two medical colleges in Abbottabad (abbotabad to mansehra road) and One medical college in Peshawar. Might be some may exist in Mardan or else but I am not aware. If in punjab there are 7 or 8 medical colleges and in NWFP there are three or four medical colleges, then this ratio is not bad. You must also know that in every college, university and in every job published by government there is also a specified quota for far off places. However, in jobs and education facilities of these far off places, there is no quota for punjab. Further, in all the cities of NWFP mentioned above, colleges, education system and even universities are available for students. These facilities have to depend upon the population. This is not a matter of raising some fight among the provinces. I would feel pleasure if more facilities are granted to these areas. However, we should not declare anything impartially. You know even in punjab, the basic facilities are not available to a big mass of population. I basically belong to a village and am zameendar. I witness that when i was in village, no specialist doctor was available to us almost in the circle of 60 or 70 kilometers and we always had to run towards some big city like Fsd or Lhr etc. Still, we never have any complaint on our tongues. We are poor and developing nation. Things have to take time to bring all the prosperity to us. We dont have to kill each other for any alleged wrong distribution of resources.

You also said:

"they are much behind from the people of other two provinces, Punjab and Sindh, but its not their fault. Its all Govt who never bothered to give attention to these areas. Either its nothern areas ar Sarhad province, majority of public is illiterate there."

You in ur statement agreed that majority of public is illiterate there. Just leaving the reasons for these situations for a moment I would like to discuss this illiteracy problem. Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him ordered the Ummah to get knowledge even if one has to proceed towards china. No where it was mentioned that it is meant for DEENI TALEEM. Of course it was meant for Dunyavi taleem. We have already discussed it in detail at some other thread. It was also not ordered that do not educate your girls.

You know coollioness, every thing cannot be appreciated just becoz those pathans are against this government so those must be called waliallah. The prominant persons of NWFP never wanted to allow the establishment of these facilities in their far off areas just to keep their hold. They have been using their men like animals. This over the period created two minds; very advance minds like Sher Pao and Wali Khan families and Very conservative minds like the so-called Ulemas of these areas. Both minds have been working to get their benefits.

This is what they even today are doing. They dont much appreciate the education in their areas. They even kill those who ask them to send their sons and specially daughters to schools and colleges. Just go there and check out what they are. Mr. Mahsood died last day during a fight with security agencies. His all family members are highly educated. But this person Mahsood left studying during his graduation and join the militants group. The gus who promote militancy dont want any body to get higher education. This may be the fault of the government but to a great extent this is there own fault.

I know these people very closely and very correctly (in my perception). You know I am also a Pathan and I relate to a village of punjab which has total population of rigid pathans. It consists on every crude pashto speaking pathan sub-caste like Khatak, Afridi, Sher Khan, Yousaf Zai, Karlal Kakkey Zai, and others who have very embedded roots of their families in ILAQA GHAIR and other parts of NWFP. Some of them are also punjabi/urdu speaking. These are mainly those who have been migrating from Afghanistan and then some times living at Lora Lai (Balochistan) and then in Punjab resulting the intra-caste marriages and other factors leading to mixing up of languages. Despite of being a pathan, I know that this nation is very rigid and very illiterate. Thats why they always do the things like bomb attacks and other militant activities. Do you think they are MOMANs. Even the people of our village commit murders and run to the ILAQA GHAIR to get assylum. They have been misusing there traditions and respect which all governments have been giving them. During the current Wazirastan operation, one of the murderer of my village escaped from there and ran to Karachi. He killed his bhaabhi and maamoo of his bhaabi with the help of his brother (husband of that female). His brother has been anounced death sentence by supreme court and he was escaped by taking assylum in wazirastan. Eventually as a result of this operation he left wazirastan and now he is behind the bars. What you will tell me about these people. I am one from them and I know what sort of Islam they have and how much MOMAN they are. For God sake dont mix up your beliefs. The only marriage between two males in pakistan has been celebrated in this specific area of these so called Mujahideen. No one checks the realities. The sexual perversions (that are totally disalloed in Islam) are at extreme and all sort of Chars, Heroine, Cokane etc are easily available there. They openly trade such things. The keep young boys and dont like to go to their wives to much. These are not just the allegations. Conduct a survey and you will get the result. Recently, some PH.D doctors have conducted such a survey which could be found out by searching "child abuse in NWFP/Peshawar" in google.com. The results are miserable and distressing. Where go these aalims when this all happens in NWFP. Why this does not appear in front of their eyes. One can understand it. Yes, as an outlook one can see the destruction of some houses where zana has been witnesses, again out of court judgments just as Musharraf did. It is the big mistake if you think them the fighters of Islam. Allah hamaarey haalon par reham karey. (Ameen).

The keeping of swords by our Prophet Hazrat Muhammad Peace Be Upon him, cannot lead us to hold AK-47, missiles, bombs, suicidal jackets and rockets with us in a country where muslims are in government. If we have difference of opinion with such muslims, we have way out to resolve the issues. The Arabian society was not incorporated into a country with specified boundries. Safety and security of every tribe was its own responsibility. They were bound to hold swords and other things for their own security. In those days, there was no concept of police, army, rangers and proper courts. Justice was totally unplanted. Those days cannot be compared with current situations. Our country developed atomic weapons for our security. Major portion of our budget mainly supported by taxes paid by us (I this year paid income tax of Rupees 5 lacs almost without hiding even a penny of my income as it is my social responsiblity and I should not be dishonest with my country) is expensed out on our defence. We have more than 6 lacs army. We have law, constitution, police, courts and justice. I may remind you that justice is still available in Pakistan. One needs to strive for it. In this scenario and in view of internal security, government has prescribed licenses to so many allowable bore of ammunition and even has banned some ammunition totally. Why one should be dishonest with the laws of his country. Is it justifiable? Pitty on us. We sometimes just mix up the things and create baseless asumptions for our acts. As far as sword is concerned, yes, to comply that Sunnah, I also have a sword in my house that does not require a license as per law. One can keep modle sword in his house with Kalma Tayyaba marked on it as a gesture of compliance with Sunnah and love with the Propeht PBUH. However, law breaking is not a Sunnah Naoozbillah. I will again say, Allah ham par reham karey (Ameen).

I wonder if someone feels that the way out to fight back the yahood-o-nasara is embedded in Talbanisation. The way out actually is embedded in our progress on the path of technical and scientifical research. This is what was told to us by the Prophet peace be upon him. This is what we have to concentrate. We have to educate our next generation. We need to increase our productivity and to improve our economy. We need a strong economy so that we become able to talk the others focussing our eyes in their eyes. We need honest leaders. We need hard working in every sphere of life. We are hundreds of years behind the others. People have crossed the limits of moon and mars and we are talking about Talibanisation based upon a few suicidal attackers and countable Ak 47s that were again not invented by us. Is the glory of Islam expected to be brought up by having goreela war by always hiding in the hills and caves? Is it the future of muslims Naoozbillah? What we are going to believe. Allah hamein hosh ataa karey aur ham par reham karey (Ameen). I dont disregard the every concept of Talibans, they might have good things as well but extremism without having any technical, financial and scientifical backing will one day destroy us completely. You all are educated and some of you claim to have more than needed knowledge of foreign publications, then why you dont know upto what extent human has attained the progress and development. Can this wazeeristan and tora bora save us in the long run. If we will not think on it, they will crush us. Inshallah this will not happen with Islam as it the last and final religion sent by Allah. However, you must know God's Islam will not be affected if we will be crushed. God can cause us to be crushed by the hands of these yahood-o-nasara and subsequently can turn such yahood-o-nasara on the path of Islam. We are not the leaseholders of this religion. This has happened once before when Changez Khan killed 14 Lac muslims and afterwards his generation turned out to be GREAT MUSLIMS. Nothing is impossible for Allah. We should think positively and make ourselves able to talk to other nations on equality basis. Otherwise we will be crushed and they might subsequnetly become muslim leading us to a total failure and disaster.

Still, there is a time and we can clear our concepts. May Allah be with muslims and give them vision, force, sustainbility, fortitude, knowledge, progress, economical power and Ghalba on Kuffar. However, we will have to strive for it. We will have to eliminate dishonesty. We will have to be educated and advanced in all knowledges. We will have to be a strong economy (as Malasia is doing) and this will ultimately lead us to the chair of world governance. This cannot be achieved with suicidal attacks, isolated Khutbas without amal, developing militants independent of state backing, establishing courts at our own accord, giving concept of state within state, abusing presidents, leaders and other nations, challenging the govermental writ, killing innocents to take revenge from a few persons and many more such disappointing activities.

I think I have talked on this issue so much. I dont need to convince any one who does not like these ideas. I would try not to talk more on this issue unless if it would be unavoidable.

At the end I pray, may God give us wisdom and vision (even to me), may God make our minds positive, may God make us agreeable to the realities, may God be with muslim Ummah, may God help us in achieving progress and make us a strong nation. May God create agreement among all conceptual sects of muslims and abstain us from killing each other. May God make every muslim the gaurdian of other muslims with all the pure intents.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Edited by - kamranACA on Jul 25 2007 5:15:04 PM
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Cool Lioness
Junior

United Arab Emirates
108 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2007 :  6:35:53 PM  Show Profile
I must say this was a really great effort from yourside. Whatever you said, is quite right. And i am not going to deny anything. Its really sad that pathans are getting very bad name. I believe that first of all its lack of education. You say that one should go to even china to get education but tell me how many of us can afford first to bear the educational expenses and then travelling and lodging charges in a new city or country? The annual income of a person In Pakistan is i think hardly 300-400 US$. The solution to this situation is to construct schools and colleges in each city, and each village. And not only construction is needed but regular checking of those schools, the staff, the syllabus, each and everything should be controlled in an organized way. Make the education as cheap as it could be and quality as good as it should be. Once you have an educated nation with you, you solve atleast 50%-60% of your problems. Rest of the problems can be solved with excellent health facilities, right allocation of resources and justice at door step. Our people are extremely disturbed due to financial crisis. They are getting ground in various illogical, anti islamic social taboos. They need a peace of mind. Untill we do not bring this mental peace to our people, we will remain in the hell of problems. YOu said that incident of murdering Bhabi and her mamoon, what would be the reason behind these murders? Most probably Money or Property? Or doubtful character of Bhabi? Killing for such causes is common in whole Pakistan and not limited to specific people or area. I can qoute so many shameful incidence only in my surroundings which are only done by Punjabis. If pathans escape to Illaqa Ghair, Punjabi, sindhi and balochi also go there to save their lives. Since when our people has got that feeling of guilt that they should have after committing a crime? No one goes to the police. POLICE................. an other notorious department.
I agree that Pathans are rigid minded but all fingers are not alike. Punjabis also do alot in the name of Ghairat. The treatment with women and tenants in Backward areas, villages, of sindh and balochistan is known to all. I wonder that before 9/11 where were these Pathans or bomb attackers, or these Hardcore militants or Extremists? How they all have emerged so suddenly?

We all have good people, as well as bad people. Number of good is definitely dominating but i am afraid that our present situation is leading us towards some very serious situation.

I am a pathan too. Not from any village of Punjab but from NWFP. My mother tongue is Pushto. I have not visited those areas of NWFP but i have lived there and still go there whenever i get time in vacations. Therefore i agree to you that pathans are really rigid people at mind but they all are not same. You will find the majority simple and straight. All of them still marry to ladies, they go often to their wives therefore they usually have a big number of kids, atleast not less then number FIVE . Also they prefer to keep only one wife throughout their lives. The ratio of Divorce in NWFP is minimum.

Today due to mental, social, political and economic slump, we are going towards decline. The responsible for this situation is only and only our leaders. These are not leaders who are supported by only a group of people. Leader tou woh hota hai jiss ki aik awaz par poora mulak khara ho jaey. We all are distributed. blaming each other, cursing each other, fighting with each other, we have sectors, we have groups, we have classes. We are becoming wrost then animals.

Yes we should pray but we should practically help our nation. Whatever help we can do. May be my or yours or few more help would be like Aatay mein namak, but slowly this number will multiply and there will be a day inshallah when we will have a nation with one thought, one motive and one slogan, thats would be Hum Zinda Qoum hain, Paainda Qoum hain.

Pakistan Zindabaad
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2007 :  1:15:35 PM  Show Profile
Dear Miss Coollioness,

Thank you very much for giving so much amount of time to read out my lengthy post and agreeing the material points.

Best regards,

Kamran.
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Cool Lioness
Junior

United Arab Emirates
108 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2007 :  1:34:27 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by kamranACA

Dear Miss Coollioness,

Thank you very much for giving so much amount of time to read out my lengthy post and agreeing the material points.

Best regards,

Kamran.



Does it mean you are only thankful to me coz i read your lengthy post and agreed to main points but what i said, you are not agree with them?
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Muhammad Amir
Manager

Pakistan
886 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2007 :  3:26:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit Muhammad Amir's Homepage  Send Muhammad Amir a Yahoo! Message
DEAR MEMBERS AFTER SOME ALLEGATIONS ON ME AND MY OTHER MUSLIM BROTHERS IT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY TO POST HERE SOME FACTS TO REBUTT KAMRANACA'S BASELESS SORDID STATEMENTS SO IT IS MY REQUEST ESPACIALLY TO THOSE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THIS TOPIC THAT PLEASE READ THIS POST FULLY IT WILL TAKE YOU 3 TO 4 MINUTES BUT WILL DEFINATELY BE HELPFUL IN COPING WITH PROPAGANDITS AND DUSHMANAN-E-DEEN


Dear MOHADIS-E-AZAM,MUJADID-E-ROSHAN KHAYAL DEEN,FAQEH-E-AZAM KAMRANACA SAHIB;

I Recommand you to remove your postfix of ACA and insert A Prefix which I had used in above line.
Your Interpertations regarding a HIDIS-E-MUBARIKA that "ELM HASIL KARO CHAHAY IS KAY LIAY TUMHAY CHEEN HI KYUN NA JANA PARAY" is very very ludicrous and I will not appreciate your self obtained knowledge of ISLAM because I don't think that you have obtained ELM-E-HADIS from any Mullah/Taliban thats why i said it as self Obtained...In this hadis your interpertation that go to China and get "DUNYAWI ELM" is absolutly absurd interpertation,actually by this hadis Our Prophet Hazrat Muhammad(Sallalahu-Allihe-Wassallam) highlighted the importance of "DEENE ELM" that Go to obtain ELM-E-DEEN in any condition even if you need to travel far and wide....
Actually my Dear MOHADIS-E-AZAM it happens when one do not have any knowledge of truth and he propagates his self made truth which is so called Roshan Khyal Version of Islam...And It also happens when one did not obtain DEENE ELM from any MADDRSA...In Religious Parlance There are two things one is "ELM and Other is HUNNAR" What ever DEENE knowledge you obtain is ELM and whatever Dunyawi Knowledge you obtain is Hunnar because your subsequent task after DUNYAWI HUNNAR is to make money like 3 cars and to get every luxury in your life.......So my dear i invite you to write a TAFSEER of your Interpertations of Islam because all roshan Khayals of your catagory will appreciate your struggle...By the way this had already done by people of your sect like Sir Syed and Others i will not mention some other names here...Dear MOHADIS-E-AZAM and SHAIKH-UL-HADIS you also alleged that Mullahs are involved in Homosexual activities your this statement will be a Hujjat at DOOM DAY(Youm-e-Akhirah) against you.......You will be answerable to ALLAH(S.W.T) for this allegation against venerable personalities,TAHAJUD GUZAR,DAI-E-ISLAM people....I don't know what lead you to allege these Innocent poeple might be your metal dis-order...And If any PATHAN has done anything wrong with you i strongely condemn this QABEH act but it does not mean to allege others as well....In some other threads you said that you were enjoying MOUSEQEE(Music) which is "ZINA KA MANTAR" and you are now alleging TAHAJUD GUJAR PEOPLE...You also alleged me that I decleared BENAZIR AS KAFIR so my dear you can check my whole post I never decleared BENAZIR AS KAFIR because ALLAH(S.W.T) will provide MUNAFIQEEN a place in DOZAKH
which is "HAWIA" a very last partition of DOZAKH..
I am no one to declear anyone Munafiq as Kafir how could i be even after knowing that ALLAH(S.W.T) has prepared "DARDNAK AZAB" for the (MUNAFIQEEN).....A very DARDNAKK AZAB for MUNAFIEQEEN than that of KUFFARS.........In your this post along with other posts you always try to degrade Mullahs and always use Impudent statements by declearing them as Illetrate people this also shows your level of
knowledge, but as far as my knowledge is concerned which I never obtained form TV channels(Because i never whatch TV[SHAITANE DABBA])but from other sources is that these Mullahs/Talibans are also Doctors,Engineers,Architechts,Scientists and other highly qualified
Professionals....Actually my dear, people like you and other Roshan KHAYALs think that Mullahs are JAHILS and they don't know about the pros and cons of modern world requirements... The difference between Roshan KHAYALS and INTAHA PASANDS is that INTAHA PASANDS always ask ALLAH for HELP and they always think that If there is anything wrong is just because of our A'AMALS we have left "JEHAD", when UMMAT-E-MUSLIMA was doing JEHAD fighting with KUFFARS AND MUNAFIQEENS they were at the top of the nations and nearly 50% of the world was under there influance I am talking about DOOR-E-FAROUQE(Razi-Allah-Ta'ala UNHUO)..I never meant to say that Islam is spread through TALWAR...ISLAM PYAR SAY(DAWAT-O-TABLEGHE SAY) PHELA AUR TALWAR SAY MAZBOOT HOA Islam kay 3 fundametal ASSAS hann

1)DAWT-E-DENN-E-HAQ(TABLEGHE)
2)JIZIA/TAX of using ALLAH's(S.W.T) NEMATAIN(If First option declined)
3)JEHAD(IF KUFFARS SHOW THEIR HAD DHARMIE)

And remember that JEHAD could only be possible in leadership of HUKMARAN-E-WAQT every one can't do Jehad by their ownself...Now a days JEHAD is FARZ on all of US because KUFFARS are killing our
Muslim Brothers in Afghanistan,IRAQ,BOSNIA,KASHMIR,BAIT-UL-MAQDAS and in other areas as well but the GUNNAH of Not doing JEHAD is on "HUKMARAN-E-WAQT KAY SAR" but whenever he(HUKMARAN-E-WAQT)
call us to do jehad and we do not say "LABAIK" on his statement then we are invloved in GUNAH-E-KABIRAH....I also want to tell you one more thing here that Mr KAMRANACA also badly and Impudently degrade
PATHAN QUOM....I don't know the reason behind this however whenever i went to any IJTAMA like in RAIWAND or other places I seen nearly 80% pathans there just because of their love with ISLAM,so one person can not decleare whole QUOM as sinfull if any one person of that QUOM has infringed his rights badly...I am not a pathan instead I am URDU SPEAKING but I really fully respect Pathan Quom because these are the people who have full DEEN DARI in them I have never seen that much DEEN DARI in other QUOMS even not in ARABS(now a days)....Mr KAMRAN also abused BAITH-ULLAH-MAEHSOOD SHAHEED(Rehmatullah Alleh) by declearing him as illetrate if kamranACA is having a benchmark of literacy i ask him to tell me the maximum limit to be a litterate person then I will show him those names those are also litterate Mujahids...

In the end My message to all of my Muslim Brothers and Sisters is that Please! Please! Please! don't come under Influance of ROSHAN KHAYALS because they are DUSHMAN of your EMANs Please! Please! Please! save your Emans...here i will quote a Sher of HAZRAT Moulana Saeed Ahmed Khan Sahib(Rehmatullah Alleh) which has also used By BHAI JUNAID JAMSHEED Sahib in his Natt....

(HIFAZAT KARO APNAY EMAN O DEEN KI
ZAMANA WOH AISA AJJEB AA RAHA HAY)




And also remember one more thing INSHA-ALLAH FATAH HAQ KI HI HOGI AUR BATIL KO MOUN KI KHANI PARAY GI KYUN KAY ABHI ALLAH(S.W.T) KAY NEEK BANDAY AUR MUJAHEDEEN-E-KIRAM ZINDAH HAN JO KAY HAR MAHAZ PAR KUFFAR SAY BARSAR-E-PAYKAR HANN BAS APP TAMAM LOG ALLAH KAY IN NEEK BANDOON KAY LIAY DUA KARAIN....

Regards,
Muhammad Amir

Edited by - Muhammad Amir on Jul 26 2007 3:58:41 PM
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2007 :  7:38:24 PM  Show Profile
Dear Coollioness,

I dont materially differ from your opinion and I think we have reached a conclusion. Government has to play a positive and active role to boost up education, economic and financial progress, scientifical research, and unity among the citizens for making them ready to face all the upcoming challenges of advanced world.

Basic necessities of life should be distributed among the citizens as much possible on equality basis so that the sense of being deprived of must not evolve in any specific sect.

Government must not kill its own citizens without any court trial and justifiably proving the allegations on any one accused. We should have our own policies and diplomacy must be used at maximum to keep ourselves on our own path without opting any militancy or threat of war.

Our next generation should be fully educated specially the daughters of this nation who are normally ignored by us.


As far as above post of Mr. Amir is concerned, I have no grouse on him as I know he is a person of very much immature attitude, tiny mind, narrow vision, and short temper. He has so many times become personalised with various members of this forum. He has tried fully to abuse me in above post through his various immature efforts. I must not have to use indecent language for him becoz I know his mindset and mental level.

Further in religious matters, if some one misbehaves or abuses me, I dont have to reply him in similar way as Hazrat Ali Karamallah Wajho has set an example of letting a Kafir go who Naoozbillah spitted on his Chehra-e-Mubarik. I know Amir is a muslim and I can by no means call him otherwise. I just have to follow the example set for us. I once again let him go without answering his childish doctor quack sort of post which might be very much Islamic in some others' view.

I also know that we are ordered not to mess up with JAAHILs and we have been asked to offer them a SALAM. (See Holy Quran).

I accordingly offer a SALAM to Amir.

Miss coollioness,

Once you asked me about what is Mullahism. See above post of Amir. Might it be of some use to clarify and understand the term. Mullahs' one main feature is that they dont understand the very easily understandable things and very soon become personalised.

May God save these rigids from destruction, becoz any such destruction will also be extremely painful for us. Remember perished things cannot be preserved. May God save all of us.

I am a very humble creature of Allah and as such the ser-names used by Amir have nothing to do for me.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Edited by - kamranACA on Jul 26 2007 7:51:38 PM
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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2007 :  10:30:20 AM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
Dear All

After reading the post of senior brother Mr. Kamran not only that i was greatly shocked about the ideas of my ROSHAN KHAYAL BROTHER but was much surprised that how some one declare himself Muslim after blaiming the (Ulama s) leaders of Muslims. I repeat that no one specially with limited knowledge can blame any of his Muslim brother. First of all the observation i have made about MR Kamran as per his own introduciton of himself. HE IS AMONGST THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAS ATTAINED SOMETHING (NODULATIA) IN SHORT PERIOD WITH HIS STRUGGLE AND CONSIDER THEMSELVE THE SUCCESSFUL CREATURE OF EARTH AND ARE DUNIYA PARAST AND ARE AMONGST THOSE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES THE MISTAKE PROOF(KOYE KAY MANDAK). These people have very limited knowledge about deen and consider themselves scholars. I think if you write one thousand words in favour of Claiming night as day you are unsuccessfull as night will remain night and day is day.

No Muslim can bear any harsh word against their Scholars Ulama. These are the people who are superior from us. Dunya ka ilm hasil karna bahut asan hey koi be admi 10 sal may 15000 say 3 garia aur asayshay kharid sakta hey par dene Islam itna asan nahi k her koi hasil kar sakay Yeh tu Allah k chunay hoay banday hotay hey jo k sitaro kee manind hotay hey aur dosro ko roshi faraham kartay hey. Mujay bahut dukh hota hey jab koi aik mamoli admi in rashni daynay walo ko bura bhala kehta hey.

Jaha tak pathan kom ka tahalak hey tu meray khayal say agar islam practically baki hey tu woh is kom may hey. Mera yeh maksad hargiz nahi k baki qomo may Islam ka pyar kam nahi par Kissi be insan ka hulaya dekh kar us k aur us k mazhab k baray may andaza kia ja sakta hey. yeh loog sunat e nabvi par amal karnay walay loog hey. aur innay bura is lye kaha jata hey qk yeh roshan khayal na to hey na he ban saktay hey. yeh loog jhot aur jabir k agay juknay walay nahi. aur jahan tak kamran sb ko problem hey to i think very well said by mr amir k agar un k sath bura hoa tu kia yeh matlab hey k saray pathan buray hey.

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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2007 :  11:31:01 AM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
I am sorry Mr kamran that i become personal to you but believe me my brother that you are wrong. I know well that in forum every one is free to express his opinion but i even beg you in last some posts that please dont be harsh with ulama s. Any way sorry for being personal as you are a senior member to this forum and write well except this topic.
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Muhammad Amir
Manager

Pakistan
886 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2007 :  5:11:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Muhammad Amir's Homepage  Send Muhammad Amir a Yahoo! Message
Well Mr Kamran I once again say that
If any PATHAN has done anything wrong with you i strongely condemn this QABEH act but it does not mean to allege others as well that whole Quom is involved in homosexual activities...."

Your NAFRAT against ISLAM and SHAIR-E-ISLAM is appearent now, so you don't need to personally abuse me because whoever will abuse ISLAM i will Resist there and my other Muslim brothers too..So please don't try to abuse ISLAM and SHUAER-E-ISLAM it is dangerous for your E'man(just a request as your muslim brother)...now as you are MOHDIS-E-AZAM I don't think I need to explain SHUAIR-E-ISLAM....

One more thing here for you that you are great PROPAGANDIST and you are very expert in getting things Mixup...But remember onething you can't mixup religious matters because ALLAH(S.W.T) NAY KHUD HI IS DEEN KI HIFAZAT KA ZIMMA LIYA HAY....

Those who want full Roshan Khyali I will request them to leavse Pakistan as early as possibel Because Pakistan Is our Country which was formed in the name of ISLAM and here PERVEZE MUZALLAL's Roshan KHYALI will not work...

MUJAHIDEEN-E-KHATM-E-MABUWWAT ki OULADAIN ABHI ZINDAH HANN ABHI KAI ATA-ULLAH-SHAH-BUKHARI(Rehmatullh Alleh) ZINDA HANN...

PREVEZE MUZALLAL KI KUFFAR DOSTI IS KA MIRZY GHULAM QADIANI SAY BADTAR HALL KARAY GII...

WOH VICTORIA KAY TOKROON PAR PLA THA YE BUSH KAY TOKROON PAR PALA HAY....

DENN-E-MUBIN ki HIFAZAT ALLAH NY KARNI HAY ROSHAN KHYALOON KI CHALAIN ALLAH UNHI PAR ULAT DAY GA....JAISA ALLAH NAY WADA KIA THA KAY MAY KUFFAR KI CHALLON KO UNHI PAR PALAT DOON GA AYSAHI ALLAH ROSHAN KHAYALOON KO BHI NAKAM KAR DEE GA....INSHA-ALLAH...

Edited by - Muhammad Amir on Jul 27 2007 5:15:21 PM
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Imran
Semi Senior

Pakistan
275 Posts

Posted - Jul 28 2007 :  11:08:14 AM  Show Profile  Send Imran a Yahoo! Message
Dear Aamir

I have full respect for your sincerity towards the religion but my dear brother dont be too harsh with Mr kamran as your harsh opinion is not fruitfull. Betterly you can gain attention and change bad opinions and ideas of any body through your positive and good behaviour.

Regards
Imran
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Schuaeb
Partner

1119 Posts

Posted - Jul 28 2007 :  8:32:21 PM  Show Profile  Send Schuaeb an ICQ Message
I guess Kamran at least you have developed the courage to sustain such opposition by indulging in such debates
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Cool Lioness
Junior

United Arab Emirates
108 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2007 :  7:04:22 PM  Show Profile
I am really sorry to read all of the above. And then we say that we are not extremists. This is the mistake all of us are making. Killing each other in the name of religion. Our religion has got such softness in it that it’s each word make you spell bound. There is no need at all to argue like that. Why getting so personal Mr. Amir? And Mr. imran I thought you were quite sensible (anyway thanks that you realised it soon). If you people have different views about a matter, does it mean that you people just start imposing it on each other? You explained your view; Kamran did it in his own way. Try to convince each other with reasons and facts.

I know Mr. Kamran has kind of rigid and extreme view about some of the issues. He makes the whole world responsible for the mistake of few numbers of people. His thoughts are based on his life experiences. Today if he thinks all Pathans are same that is because he has seen few bad examples (new to me atleast though i am Pathan too) in his own locality. Tomorrow may be he will change his view totally after seeing some one from same tribe doing something amazing. This is life. It shows you various and various things, each time with different angle. Our duty is to keep our sight vast and open to explore the truth and not hurry to make our point of view. Until a certain point of life, none of us can make an accurate or precise decision about anything. One should always remember that there are always exceptions and not all fingers are alike. Always keep the doors of hope open with yourself. By force, by calling names, by cursing each other, you will only increase the hate. You can make the other person stronger in his wrong believes with your wrong behavior. Leave him if one is not willing to understand. Your duty was to express yourself. You expressed what you thought was right. At least Mr. Kamran has read it. That means you have already done the most important task of conveying your message to him. And I believe he is enough sensible that if he ever stumbled across the reality he will accept it and would change his views.

For Mr. Kamran I will advice or suggest that keep yourself a bit flexible. No one is perfect, so are you. No one of us knows what’s going on inside our politics and who the actual people behind all these terrorist acts are. Then why to create differences and hatred among us for those people who doesn’t deserve anything from us? You have your bad experience with Pathans, we have their good impression on us. If we are admitting that ok there must be some elements causing the problems but not whole Pathan qoum is like them then you should also admit it with open heart because it is the truth. Same goes for Ulema e Deen. We definitely have the genuine Ulema’s among us and they are definitely dominating in number.

Regards
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Muhammad Amir
Manager

Pakistan
886 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2007 :  9:12:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit Muhammad Amir's Homepage  Send Muhammad Amir a Yahoo! Message
FOR BHAI IMRAN SAHIB

Dear Imran Bhai You are more than 100% right and I must say that we should respectfully convey our point of view....But dear what will you say for those who start portraying wrong bliefe and want to impose it on others...

FOR SISTER(BEHAN) COOL-LIONESS
Dear Sister Cool lioness I once again say that their is nothing to disagree with you and i personally respect for all your words whatever you said in your above post...regarding your statement of getting personal with Mr KAMRAN I must say my sister that If any person personally abuse me or even he slapt me i will say nothing to him but whenever a person abuse My RELIGION ISLAM and SHUIR-E-ISLAM I will definately resist because It's my religious duty to do JEHAD aginst "DUSHMANAN-E-DEEN", believe me dear that i am neither a politician nor I am a member of any religious party nor i want to impose my bliefes on others because every one have to laid in his own grave.....One thing which I can do for my Muslim Brothers and Sisters is DUA...and believe me I pray for whole UMMAT-E-MUSLIMA in my all prayers.....Regarding you statement that I am having Extreme views dear sister If this is extremism i must say that I am the most Extremist person in Pakistan..and I proud to be!!!!!

FOR ALL MEMBERS INCLUDING KAMRANACA SAHIB

Dear All members especially Kamran Sahib...this is not the first time that we both quarrelled bitterly infact in all topics espacially where religious point of views involoved there was a huge difference in your thoughts and my thoughts and these differences lead to arose a conflict which then become critical...Mr KamranACA every time i want a peacefull solution of our conflicts and even after your stubborn behaviour to impose your thoughts on me,even after knowing that you will not accept my point of view, I lot of time tryed to make things calm and coll and asked pardon from you even after knowing that I am not wrong but you were the one who don't want peace in this forum and now you are also trying to impose your thoughts on IMRAN, every member of this forum will agree to me atleast on this point....But It does not mean that i left my point of view aside and become your devotee, only because of no support from others and they my be impressed by your qualifications(which value nothing to me)did nothing for me and even they feel hesitate to support my views on different topics....

Due to your Unethical behaviour and abusing Religion and Religious Scholars(ULEMAS)I had dicided not to post anymore in this forum and i had decided to leave this forum and will never post again but i think this is impossible for me because of such a calm and cool and "PAKIZAH" environment of this forum....which is going to be starined just because of you....

My dear brother I don't know why we people close our eyes from facts,once In this forum A person named as "USMAN HAIDER" posted an obscene post in this forum titled as "CALL GIRLS FROM KARACHI" there were only two people me and "ASTUTE ACCOUNTANT" who condemn his ill posts even Mr SHOAIB was against us by saying that this is general discussion thread and so every one can post here anything but due of public pressure Mr USMAN HAIDER changed this topic title by other names......

Once when their was a conflic between us on topic women "JOB" VIEL and SHARA-E-TAQAZAY....you have shown your ill mindness in that topic even after knowing that you are on wrong track but still you want to impose your ROSHAN KHAYALIE on us there was also no support for me that's why i need to leave this topic and again asked pardon from you even there was your mistake because you every time make religion "TAKHTA-E-MASHQ"(practicing pitch)...And this is critical for me atleast and i can't accept your views..Forunately Astute Accountant played there key role and resolve our conflicts and i once again showed full recpect for you and atleast you will agree to me that i always asked pardon from you even where i was on "HAQ"...

Mr KAMRANACA once you also said that i am not the person of followable bliefe I say yes I am not of followable belief and i never invited you or others to make me your IMAM...you do not need to follow me and others go and read AHADES-E-MUBARIKA and QURANE-KARIM and TAFASEER you will then assess the TRUTH....

What I want to say you here that you do not need to follow any IMAM or MULLAH or any sect/creed go and study QURAN and AHADEES REALITY WILL BE INSHA-ALLAH infront of you...

You also try to degrade TALIBANS and always use wrong words for them even after knowing that I am having my ROHANIE attachement with them...If you think TALIBANS are rigid this is your personal view but what i have seen in them is very different from what you are telling people here...

In the end I will invite every member that please read full topic and assess who used wrong words and who is having offensive behaviour and who is only defencing...

Regards,
Muhammad Amir

Edited by - Muhammad Amir on Jul 29 2007 11:03:11 PM
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Pracs
Partner

United Kingdom
1542 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2007 :  11:36:35 PM  Show Profile  Send Pracs an ICQ Message
Kamran,

It is but in vain to debate with the like of Amir and his new cohorts,. but I do commend on your logs here and any one with a little perception and understanding can get to the bottom of it but alas they read, but do not understand, they talk but do no think and I am but perplexed and some what awe strucken by the kind of 'Jugat' and 'name calling' Amir has resorted here in the last couple of posts. But then again, I have seen this before.

Unfortunately this is what a section of our society feels like, May Allah SWT give then guidance and hidayah,, and let they not be the one's about whom Allah SWT says so in Quran, chapter 2, Surah Baqrah.. 'Sommon bokmun umyoun....'

Amir,,. I have read all of the thread and no matter how 'neutral' I try to be I do not see how I cannot agree with most of what KAMRAN has to say. I am let me say again, very dissapointed wiht how you have chosen to rebut Kamran's point of view.. and this comes in a post where you quote hadith and Quran and in the same post refer to,,,, (I do not want to repeat here.) I am impressed by Kamran's cool, truly reflective of a professional and Muslim.
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2007 :  1:05:59 PM  Show Profile
Dears,

No one should deem the non-posting of messages from me as a sign of my defeat. I Alhamdolillah feel that I am substantially on correct path. This is my faith and faith has nothing to do with changing the ideas of others un-necessarily as Mr. Amir said that every one has to lay down in his own grave. Further, Holy Quran says that there is no compulsion or binding in faith (Deen). Whenever I quoted my ideas, these were purely my ideas and were never aimed at to alter the thoughts of Amir , Imran or any body else. Irrespective of whatever I think in my mind about the rigids I no where call them Kafir or Dushmanan-e-Deen. I pray for them that may God give them wisdom and vision to understand the issues. Same prayer one should offer for me, if he/she is faithful to others as a human being or muslim.

How rigid is to present own ideas with all of the best efforts trying utmost to change the others' faith and at the same time throughing dirt and offering cheapness to others who are also stating what is their point of view. I no where asked or forced any one to change his faith or view point. I apparently cannot do it and I have no need to do it. I always said that bala bala is my view point and it has never been purposed to change what others feel. Wherever the things appeared positive or agreeable to my apprehension, I have agreed on that. One can see my discussions with Coollioness and others. Yes, no rigid can abstain me from saying what comes to my apprehension as a correct stance. I am not a hypocrite or cowrdice. I have been challenging these rigids even when there was a threat to my life in my colleges becoz the idols and taboos of thoughts have to be discussed openly. I have been doing so and will Inshallah keep on doing so upto my last breath. Yes, I might be wrong as per some others' view point and if some one thinks so, he has to prove it with reference to ground realities, references of Quran, Hadees and Sunnah. He/she also should pray for me so that I may be enlightened on correct path by the blessing of Allah as the hearts (minds) are in the control of Allah. Simply abusing me cannot make me to change my view point. Come on this forum, and discuss as per Quran, Hadees, history, Ijmah-e-Ummat and logic. Dont mess up the things.

My absence from the forum is on account of the murder of a very close friend of mine (aged 38). There is no clue of this murder as he had have no enemity. He was going to his dairy farm early in the morning at 5.15 AM in his car after offering Namaz-e-Fajar and reciting Hol Quran (as per witnesses) and was murdered in the way to the farm. He was a very noble man of Allah, was following all Sunnah, and was a hadees learner. He was from Ehal-e-Hadees brothers and was also the member of Jamat-ud-Dawa. However, he never participated in religious debates of any conflictive nature. I had have some Nazrayati Ikhtalaf with him but irrespective of it he was a very nice and easy going person and was a very loving friend. We are feeling immense grief for his untimely death. He left three kids from 3 years to 8 years aged. INNA LILLAH-E-WA INNA ALEHE-RAJEOON. May Allah bless him with Jannat-ul-Firdous. Ameen. Forum members are requested to offer Fateha for him.

I will come back to the discussion after some time.

Yes, Dear Mr. Shoaib / Mr. Pracs,

I have courage to face cheapness and rigidity. I think if I will not do it then who other will we look for. Something every person should do.

I dont misbehave with Amir or Imran, as their vulgarity do not affect me, my family back ground status of my family before my father's death, at the time of my father's death and after the lapse of some time after my father's death and my belief. God says in Holy Quran that he rotates the days (circumstances) among the human beings. I am from a respectable, renowned and educated zameendar family. Alhamdolillah. I dont have to prove it for reducing the cheapness of Imran or anybody else. Every one should have fear of Allah while giving statements. No body knows when his parents will die leaving them alone and when they will die leaving their dependents alone.

Hoping to talk to u again very soon Inshallah.

Thank you very much Shoaib, Coolioness and Pracs for stating the truth.

Best regards,

Kamran.
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Cool Lioness
Junior

United Arab Emirates
108 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2007 :  4:06:32 PM  Show Profile
Amir sahib do not think that we are against you or Kamran is against Ulemas. Read his posts he definitely has much respect for Islam and the REAL ulemas. Baat yeh nahin ke koun theek hai, aur koun ghalat. The point of contradiction is to draw a line between Asal Ulema and Naqalee Ulema. Knowing one good Aalim doesn’t make all of them good and seeing one bad example doesn’t mean that all Aalim's are bad. As usual I have recalled one happening that stayed in news for hardly one or two days, that was a mishap with a 6-7 years old Pathan girl who would go to mosque for Taleem e Quran. The Qaari or Moulvi over there asked her parents that he will give her job in his house as Maid and also would like to teach her there. The pathan family agreed to his proposal as they were extremely poor and needed some financial support. The girl, I think her name was Saima, she started going to that Moulvi's house. It was decided that her house being quite at a distance, she will stay over night at moulvi's house and can see her parents twice in a week. Once it’s so happened that Saima did not appear for whole one week. Her parents got worried that why she did not come to see them in her usual days. So they thought to meet her at Moulvi's house. When they reached there they investigate about their girl from Moulvi Sahib. He replied that she is sleeping upstairs and promised that he will send her to house soon. The parents got suspicious on the way he was telling them the story. They insisted to meet her right away. At this moulvi sahib revealed the bomb news that she got slipped from the stairs last night and died on the spot. The parents ran towards the room upstairs and found their Saima lying dead on the floor. The smell of dead body was all around which was telling that she was dead there from more than a day. Her clothes were dirty with her urine and there was one more dress lying on a side with same dirtiness on it. Her hand fingers were bleeding as her nails were extracted with some tool. Her both thighs had hot iron marks on them and all of her body was stabbed with a thick stick. There were bottles of liquor all around in the room. Believe me that while I was reading that in news paper I could not stop my tears. Mera bas chalta tou ussi waqat uss Moulvi ko exactly ussi tareeqay se marwathi jaisa uss ne uss masoom 7 saal kee bachi ke saath kiya tha. After that day, daily i checked the news paper, to see the Anjaam of that Moulvi, but Saima's news never came in paper after that. No body did anything against that so called Moulvi.

Keeping above in mind I won’t conclude that all Punjabi Moulvies or all Moulvies around Pakistan are corrupt. That would be definitely a stupid thought.

Stating above incident doesn’t mean that I am against Moulvi's but I want to tell that there are some black sheep in our society who are wearing the masks of Sharafat, living with us so close , but they have hidden their faces behind the veil of religion. The need is to recognize them. Not all Moulvies, Aalims and Ulema e deen are same. Agar sab ke sab itnay theek hotay aur genuine loug hotay tou masla hi kiya tha? I am sure that the people you are living with, or the Aalims you are taking guidance from, must be really good people. That’s why you are opposing Kamran so hard. What Kamran is saying is also right in away if take a look on the Moulvi’s as I mentioned above. So please do not fight with each other. You both are right on your places and with your points. But give some place to new ideas too. Keep a positive attitude while listening to each other. Sometime by listening to a person, you suddenly come accross something totally new and different that you might have never thought of before. I am no where saying that we are here to change each other’s views. But listening to someone with open mind is not a bad thing either.

Everyone over here, including Kamran, Imran, and Amir, all are with same view that Lal Masjid operation was neither a right action from Govt nor from Lal Masjid Intezamia in order to achieve their goals (even if they were on right). We all condemn the killing of 100s of innocents. We all agree that there was some high govt personals or/and agencies and foreign hands involved. We all agree that way of escape chosen by Mr. Aziz cannot be appreciated. Phir laraiee kis baat kee? Itnay sab kuch similar honey ke bawajood, and we are here hardly 4-5 people discussing, agar yeh haal hai ke haath garebaan taq aagaey hain tou how can you expect a peaceful solution from Government and Lal Masjid Intezamia where 100s of people were involved? Shaid yeh humara qoumi massla hai ke humain baat banaani aathi hi nahin, sirf bigarni aathi hai. Aisa hai tou laggay raho……

And to tell all of you something new is that you all posses a narrow mind. Kamran showed his this characteristic while talking about Pathan Qoum. He thinks all of them are gays, religion freaks, extremists and responsible for all kind of terrorism around the world.
Mr. Imran and Mr. Amir showed their narrow mind when they got so personal with Kamran’s life and also when they do not accept that all Religious People that we see around us are not Doodh ke Dhulay.

Regards


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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2007 :  4:33:02 PM  Show Profile
Dear Coollioness,

I appreciate your above post. You are right in analyzing the situation of Maulvies. I while criticising some maulvies (rigids) always mentioned that I have full respect for all noble men of Allah and I always try to seek guidelines from them.

I dont put my hand to GRAIBAAN of Mr. Imran and Mr. Amir. Irrespective of any one's behaviour I always said Amir that he is our brother. Imran is also brother for us being a muslim and being a Pakistani.

One can witness that I have always conveyed my views about a situation or about some incident but I dont normally talk negative about any member of this forum. I always tried to use decent language for every one. Yes, I am also a human and might be at some times I had been somewhat indecent as a reaction of some action but still, never used dirt for any one. I strive to keep in my hand a corner of the morality, at least.

When I was talking about Pathan qoum, I was basically discusisng the rigids. I always said that whenevr I talk against any thing it is basically, illetracy, Jahaalat and rigidity. Otherwise I dont have any difference with any body else. I am myself a pathan.

I know there are number of innocent pathans as well but the issue is that if some nation or some one on behalf of such nation has to claim its purity as a whole nation, then it should be pure as whole nation. Good and bad exist every where, I totally agree. The problems of pathans is that they exclaim to be the purist as a whole nation, but so much is at extreme in this nation. I myself is from them. I see no other qoum/sub-qoum has such a big exclaimation of purity and being on right path, as much my own qoum has. I dont call every pathan as gay. Irrespective of cheapness of some guys here at this forum, can any one deny this reality that this is the biggest perversion of NWFP. One is the biggest hypocrite if denies this ground reality. Check out research papers on internet search engines. If you are a pathan, you cannot deny the trend of this qoum. This just appears to be Munaafqat that on one side they describe theirselves the biggest supporters and fighters of Deen-e-Islam and on the other side the worst ill doings are the part of their society. One has to understand what I want to clarify.

Anyways, I agree to you that good and bad exist every where.

Best regards,

Kamran.
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Cool Lioness
Junior

United Arab Emirates
108 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2007 :  5:18:03 PM  Show Profile
I know there are number of innocent pathans as well but the issue is that if some nation or some one on behalf of such nation has to claim its purity as a whole nation, then it should be pure as whole nation. Good and bad exist every where, I totally agree. The problems of pathans is that they exclaim to be the purist as a whole nation, but so much is at extreme in this nation. I see no other qoum/sub-qoum has such a big exclaimation of purity and being on right path, as much my own qoum has. Now where did you get this information from? I dont remember myself claiming that i am the purist among all of you? I am using "I" coz i am a pure pathan and direct from NWFP. I myself is representing my nation. I wont say that all of the good muslims only exist in my nation. Of course good muslims are every where, Punjab Sindh or Balochistan and even outside pakistan. But may be the ratio of practising muslims in pathan qoum are a bit more then others. I am not saying it coz i think so, i am saying it coz i see so. In Lahore or Karachi how many people go to street Mosques to offer the regular prayers? Count them, and come to a street mosque in any city of NWFP. I can bet you will get the difference of half and half. Mr. Kamran jiss group of people kee aap baat kar rahay ho unhain tou unnki apni qoum accept nahin karthi. Do you think i will ever support or appreicate a gay Pathan. I wont do it for any muslim regardless where he belongs from. If you know that gay is something Anti Islamic then does your mind accept that Pathans, the practising muslims would accept them in any way or any form? And do you think that this Gay group only exists in this nation? Dont you think you are giving a very unfair statement? Aur yeh ratio internet par kahan se kis ne dee ho gi? Pakistan mein Aids kee actual ratio aaj taq nahin pata chalee coz over here these subjects are not discussed openly since its an islamic country and in islam extra sexual life is highly prohibted. Aids should have not entered to our country at first place. SAme case goes for illegal abortions. When such basic and important information is kept hidden then how can i believe in any ratio about the gay society in pakistan? And if you bring this ratio thing then i can also ask you to check the ratios of divorces, rape cases, kidnapes, family murders, revenge murders and tell us that which nation is leading.

By the way if you think that majority of this nation is playing diplomatic role, then its better to either kill all of them with a bomb or divide the country once again. Let this province be a separate country. But i wonder if this would be the solution? Coz if it happens so, and still you had these terrorism and extremism then whom you would call responsible for?

I think we better not bring this Hindu Muslim type of dispute in between this discussion. I am sorry that you have been living among those pathans whom atleast we do not know as pathans.

Edited by - Cool Lioness on Jul 30 2007 5:18:57 PM
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2007 :  6:23:53 PM  Show Profile
Dear Coollioness,

I no where said that you are the one who exclaim the things about this nation. I never talk about dividing my nation. I never wanted to disheart or degrade any nation. I agreed to you that good and bad exist every where. My point was only to say that we should not mention or prefer any specific nation over the other just becoz of our own conclusions without seeing what is going on in that specific society.

I know cases like Mukhtaran Maai had happened in Punjab but we normally dont take pride that people living in this specific area are very noble and are better than others. The only comments about my own nation were becoz generally so many of us conclude that they are very much islamic. I know they are very strict on some issues of Namaz and Roza but in general dealings, in spreading drugs, sexual perversions, decieving the others, keeping their kids away from education, always quarreling on tiny issues, involving theirselves in smuggling, always talking about being deprived of without making special efforts, unfairly and illegally trading the ammunition etc etc are those issues which they normally do not generally consider inappropriate in their own culture. I dont appreciate killing of any one by any one without any reason and without invoking justice, if there is any such allegation on any one living in any area of Pakistan.

The people of NWFP in general feel theirselves the only gaurdians of Islam and many of them (NOT ALL) take the others as DUSHMANAAN-E-DEEN. You can simply compare the behaviours of Ulema of NWFP with other parts of Pakistan. The main reason you have already assessed at your own is the lack of education. I agreed that government should enhance facilities and education oppurtunities in these areas so that illiteracy could be reduced.

What I said was a reality based upon research papers which are also available on internet. I did not mention any ratio in my posts. I also know that gay clubs and brothels also exist in Karachi and Lahore. I never denied the truth. However, we dont give such a priority or emphasis to the people living at Karachi and Lahore as much we give to the people living in NWFP. The majority of the Pakistanies are Muslims. Majority has fear of Allah and are moderatly good muslims. Some are really at the level of WALAAIT. So many ULEMA-e-KARAM are of course included in this category of muslims. I have full respect for all the noble men of Allah wherever they live and whether or not known to me. May God always bless them and make us to follow them.

I dont have any pride for myself or claim for myself for being better than any one else. I feel myself a sinful human who always seek forgivness from ALLAH and who request for prayers to all his muslim brothers for his improvement. This is by no way a proud statement. My problem is that so many times my ideas are interpretted wrongly. This discussion was started about the extremists who are involved in bomb attacks and who are basically related to NWFP. This specific category was covered in our initial discussion and my comments were mainly about them. The discussion of pathan qoum as a whole was to show the piture of bads in NWFP that is normally considered the fort of Islam in Pakistan. Of course I agree to you that all the population is not bad. Good and bad exist in every society. We have to base our conclusions keeping our steps on the mid ways. I offer my regrets for anything where I appeared to be one sided but actually I never made my mindset to become irrational. If you feel hurt from my comments about pathan qoum you should also know that I am also pathan like you. However, I dont want to push up my nation just becoz of qoum parasti. Here I dont think you as a qoum parast so dont take it in wrong means. We should talk justifyably without favoring any one.

Still, if you are hurt, being your basic human right, I offer my regrets to you. But please never talk about division of our nation. We can fight, we can be harsh with each other, we can differ in opinions, but we are brothers and sisters and we have to live altogether for ever. I normally dont become personalized with others as I know that eventually we are brothers and sisters and any dispute is just like our disputes in a home. We cannot and should not divide our home.

Best regards,

Kamran.

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Cool Lioness
Junior

United Arab Emirates
108 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2007 :  6:43:55 PM  Show Profile
[quote]Originally posted by kamranACA
Yes to tell you truth i a was badly hurt. Anyway leave this thing. I am fine now.

Few days back while i was thinking about all these discussions that we do at this forum, specially about terrorism, i got one thought that there is a possibility that Afghanistan is directly involved in this war. If we go back and see the political history of Afghanistan and Pakistan, Pakistan was the one preparing a force against USSR which is now called Talibans. At that time we and USA gave them full support. But after 9/11 incident when USA was badly and madly looking for OSAMA, Pakistan gave her support (gave her air bases) to attack on Afghanistan. I think Afhganistan's people and especially Talibans got much hurt for Pakistan's step agaisnt them. And look US army is still there killing talibans and other innocent citizens too. There is war situation in Afghanistan. Dont you think that they can take a revenge from us by bringing the same trouble to our country?
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2007 :  7:34:06 PM  Show Profile
Dear,

This would again be a very long story to be discussed and may cause so manys to feel hurt. The Talibaans might be the innocents but they were built for kill. Built by USA through Pakistani hands. Indirectly built by Yahood-o-Nasara for their purposes. Our nation was/is illiterate, innocent and emotional. They have always been used as such on the name of Islam. They still wish to do what others want them to do and they feel it to be best practice of Islam. Like-wise the people fighting in Kashmir were fully supported by the then governments, army and ISI. USA had been closing its eyes on Kashmir issue as Pakistan was fullfiling its purposes at Afghanistan. USA has caused the independence on eastern taimor in Indonesia becoz it is christian majority at there, but for Kashmir USA treatment is not similar. Reasons we all know.

Still so many dont believe in education, social/economic and financial development, research, technical advancement and other things like that. They feel proper islam is to destruct every thing with whatever comes in the hands.

They still feel that proceeding towards China for education was purposed to get DEENI taleem while at the time of delivery of this order the biggest/greatest deenee taleem was avaialbale only in MAKKAH MUKARMA AND MADINA MUNAWRA. Which deeni taleem was available at China at that time and even in later days until now. We just beat about the bushes. We dont still use mind and are so much rigid to our baseless ideas. People use us for their purposes and who-ever among us want to clarify the position are called kafir and what not and what not.

USA built and used Mujahedeen for their purposes. Naoozbillah our leaders directly and nation indirectly so much followed the faith travelled to them from Raigon, Bush senior, Clinton and Bush junior. We dont follow our Imam-e-Karam and their educations. Our Fiqah (Naoozbillah) infact had been what defined by USA.

A product was prepared, used till its eficiency and productivity, (unfortunately our Mujahedeen were indirectly working for USA and its long sighted objectives) and after taking its benefits for their purposes, the prduct has been decided to be discarded. The manufacturer of a product can destruct it, recycle it and abondon it whenever so desired. The issue is why we or some of us became that product. We are still wishing to do so and we are doing it by lal masjid operation on one hand and by suicidal attacks on the other hand. These are crual words but are real words. In my perception at least.

We still dont understand it and are feeling that this TORA BORA or WAZEERISTAN will be the biggest place for us to fight against so-called KUFAR (our own muslims and not americans) and this would eventually bring prosperity and ultimate success to Islam. Pitty on us and on our understanding and conclusions.

God has never changed the conditions of those who dont endeavor to change it at their own. And believe you me this condition cannot be changed using the way we are adopting now a days.

I am a Pakistani and am full supporter of the existence and independence of this country. Afghanistan and every other country comes after Pakistan for me. Whoever (country), due to whatever reason, if attacks on Pakistan or has enemity with Pakistan, we should and we will make every effort to destroy that country or abstain that country from our enemity. I have full sympathies with Afghanistan but I cannot support their enemity with Pakistan. Yes, wrong doings have been done on both sides. If Pakistan is not an angel the Afghanistan is also not an angel. Every one has been doing so much wrong in history and is responsible for current situation. Why we announce threats to developed nations without making a place for us in this powerful political and genuine war. Weak should attain power before challenging the powerful. This is what the west has done. Otherwise what is doubt in the consequences and ultimate outcome. Can we be so much irrational? You see we are.


However, all the issues should have been settled down peacefully. We cannot get back to the position of 1947. We have to live with the situations prevailing in 2007. We dont have to beat the snakelines. We should look forward and make every effort for the safety of Pakistan. We should also play a positive role for resolution of disputes among Islamic world and unity for the Islamic cause.

Best regards,

Kamran.
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Muhammad Amir
Manager

Pakistan
886 Posts

Posted - Aug 01 2007 :  10:07:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Muhammad Amir's Homepage  Send Muhammad Amir a Yahoo! Message
Well Mr Kamran I know It is going to be futile but being my muslim brother i need to clarify something here for you....

And remember one thing that i never decleared anyone as KAFIR, I am not a leaseholder of Islam who can decleare any one as Kafir(Naozubillah)...

Yeh Report my ny bohot mehnat say type ki hay please isko pora read karain a humbal request to all members.

There is a report in my hands named as "DEOBANDI ISLAM THE RELIGION OF TALIBAN" this report has not been written by any mullah or taliban it has been published by DEFENSE LANGAUGE INSTITUTE from wrc.lingnet.org I also have some reports of "MULLAHS" but i think you will not believe init and before going to pros and cons of this report i want to quote Shaikh OSAMA BIN LADEN(Hifzullah) here "AFGHANISTAN is the only country in the world with a real Islamic system.All muslims should show loyalty to the afghan TALIBAN leader, MULLAH MOHAMMAD OMAR MUJAHID SAHIB(Hifzullah)"-Shaikh Osama Bin Laden Sahib,April 2001...

Now this report contains some information relating to International Deobandi Conference,April 2001.It was held in a small town in peshawar under the administration of Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam(JUI) keynote adress was of Mu'ammar Al-Qazafi and tapped speaches of Mullah Muhammad Omer Mujahid(Hifzullah) and Shaikh Osama Bin Laden were broadcasted over there....

I am quoting this report because you will never believe in what i will say that's why i am quoting it here...At page 5 of this report under the heading of AFGHANISTAN it was clearly stated that "Centuries of long standing Islamic traditions in Afghanistan were in danger of being pushed aside when the soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979.Ignoring Tribal and ethnic diversity the soviets ran roughshod over Afghanistan sensitivities by insisting on sweeping changes that included stripping women of the viel,requiring women to work outside of the home,Imposing literacy and instituting sweeping land reform.The Afghan Muslim response was to decleare JEHAD to cast out the Infidel(KUFFAR) from their borders.Afghans were spirited fighters because they saw their cause as a holy mandate."

This next paraghaph on page 6 reveals a lot for those who blindly criticise TALIBANS...

"When the soviets left in defeat in 1989 a provisional Islamist government, the mujahedin(worriors of GOD[JO BAD KAY SHUMALI ETIHAD BANAY]) was put in place with the help of the U.N. and U.S. These afghan warriors, steeped in the Deobandi religious tradition were critical of a government that proclaimed the name of Islam but had a strong relationship with the U.S., and U.N.,the soviet Union and in some cases,India.The time and religious climate was ripe for a government void of external influences and steeped in Islamic tradition to claim the country.

In the spring of 1994 two teenage girls from the village of sang hesar were abducted by the mujahedin(SHUMALI ETIHAD's)and repeatedly raped at the local checkpoint.Muhammad Omer(Hifzullah), a retired Afghan commander studying at the local maderssa, gathered 30 fellows TALIBANS(Students) and mounted successful rescue.The Mujahedin commander was hung from a slowly ascending tank-barrel.This was the birth of a movement that came to be known as the TALIBAN.

The Taliban began as a moral force called to arms for the purpose of crushing the immoral and corrupt mujahedin. Its forces fought with a divine(SHARIE) purposes.They were orderly, disciplined, Obedient and strongly determined.living examples of their qualities they developed through years of disiplined study in the RIGID MADERSSA SYSTEM.In early years they were admired among the common aghans for their moral qualities.They were skilled in negotiating a peace with the terms slanted in their favor but when called to battle they were disciplined.There were no reports of rape or looting and force could not be bought off with drug money.In spite of these positive characteristics the TALIBAN has not been a stellar fighting force and has experianced limited success on the battlefield.To date it has not been capable of crushing its longstanding opposition in North(SHUMALI ETIHAD).

From the religious perspective the TALIBAN suppressed the afghan expression of Islam with its heavy handed approach to implementing traditional Islam into every area of the society.Because of this they may be in danger of alienating the very poeple who bought them into power.However, the Taliban has deep roots in Afghan society and Islamic traditions.Given afghanistan's checkered history it is worth noting that this is the only political force in recent memory that has not been artificially creadted.For this reason alone outside governements need to tread cautiously with this regime."


My Dear Muslim Brothers and Sisters Especially KamranACA sahib I am sorry once again of being personal to you and I hope being my elder brother you will once again show your elderness to forgive me...My Dear People these above paragraphs are written by a FARANGIE who is not a muslim this is LAMHA-E-FIKRIYA for us that why we see only one side of picture and why we present mixup things..look at again those lines these has not been written by any muslim anyways there is no need to type conclusion of this report here but for your further study i am typing here the conclusion of this report which has been written by a FARANGIE..

this was written on page 6 and 7 of the report under the heading of Conclusion

"From the religious vantagepoint the defeat of the MUJAHIDIN(SHUMALIS) by the Taliban is a clash between two different visions held by two distinct Islamic fundamentalist groups.

The Mujahidin were Islamists who carried the banner of Islam and combated secularism and then communism in Afghanistan.Islamists are modernists who seek a contemporary political interpertation of Islam.Educationally they tilt towards Al-Azhor University in Egypt where they have been strongly influance by the political orientation of the fundamentalist group the 'Muslim Brotherhood'.Because they drew from this model other governments were quick to recognize their authority and they were able to form highly organized political parties.

The Taliban are traditionalists who have only entered the political stream in afghanistan since 1994.They view roll of government and society very differently from the mujahidin.They do not see Islam in political terms but in religious terms.They seek to return to the purity of the teachings of the QURAN and THE SUNNAH(The practices of the peophet<Salallahu-Allihe-Wassallam>).They are products of religious madrassas in pakistan whose roots go back to the DAR-UL-ULOOM(Seminary) in DEOBAND, India.Their history makes the Taliban inclined to organize themselves around regional associations rather than political parties.

Religious edicts are believed to have a divine source so they carry more authority in this society than humanitarian law that stress individual freedoms.The purpose of government is to be a reflection of the divine will(as interpreted by DEOBANDI SCHOLARS),not a guardian of individual rights and liberties as insisted upon by the west."


Further more this report contains some sectarian defination which will be usefull for all.

At page 7 the paragraph states"The Deobandi School and the Taliban are strict followers of the Hanfi legal code.Saudi Arabia strictly follows the Hanbali legal code.This is a divisive point between the Taliban and the Saudi Government.What confuses things is that both Saudi Arabia and the DEOBANDI SCHOOL(i.e. the TALIBAN) are often referred to as "WAHHABIS".This term,which origionally referred to an Islamic reformer in th 18th Century,developed a completely different meaning in india under British rule.What is important for the western reader to keep in mind is that the term "WAHHABIS" means something very different in the Saudi Arabia context then it does in the TALIBAN context.One must never assume that Saudi Arabia and the Taliban share the same Islamic vision...they don't."

Dear Kamran BHAI May ALLAH(S.W.T) give your friend ALA MAQAM in JANAT-UL-FIRDOUS aur In kay GHAR WALOON aur LAWAHIQEENN aur dostoon ko SABR-e-Jamil ATA Farmain A'amen-Ya-Rabal-Aa'lamen...

Also I feel very sad on the incident which has been quoted by Sister Cool-Lioness where one Masoom BACHI was abducted by an Eblees(please don't use the word Moulve with him its my request)..ENHI logo kay liay ALLAH nay AZAB-E-ALEEM TYAR kar rakha hay...

Edited by - Muhammad Amir on Aug 01 2007 10:12:53 AM
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Aug 01 2007 :  3:10:55 PM  Show Profile
Dear,

I dont have any personal enemity with you, with Shumali Ittehad people or with Talibans. I always have differences on points of principles. The priciples, of course which appeal to my human mind. At the same time I dont have any claim for perfection since I am also a sinful human.

I had and have never been in favour of killings of human beings. I know AIK INSAAN KAA QATAL SAARI INSAANIYET KAA QATAL HAI. If you check the history you will see that utmost bloodshed in the history has been done on the name of religion. Even before Islam and even after Islam. I agree that political reasons and an effort of increasing the controlled area also contributed in such killings but if we thoroughly analyze the human psyche and human history, we will come to know that maximum killings have ever been done for religious purposes.

Still, today we can see that we dont have any forebearance among us in religious matters. We exclaim that we are not the leaseholders of our religion and every one who is a human being (and in the matter of Islamic discussion, is a muslim) should have a basic democratic right to express his view. Even then we cannot hold our minds and tounges on the issues related to religion. We declare so manys as non-muslim. I dont support anything to the contrary but except for the matter of declaring qadiyanies as non-muslims, that was done moderately by an approximate of Ijmah-e-Ummat, we have divided ourselves into so many sects and beliefs and have never reached a point of common conclusion (Ijmah-e-Ummat) and each of the sect calls the other sect as non-muslim. Even in the matter of declaring qadiyanies as non-muslim there emerged a situation where our Ulemas had to define the term MUSLIM. You must know what happened at that time. If not, one should see the records of proceedings of this particular event of 1974. As per various definitions put forward by various sect Ulemas, every other sect was not covered in the definition of MUSLIM. It was our hard luck at that time and it is still our hard luck. It was Bhutto's wisdom and advanced thinking which resolved the issues and passing through a very difficult situation of collaborating all Ulemas on one point he strived for the conclusion.

So it had ever been our problem that without any IJMAH-E-UMMAT our various sects have been declaring each other as KAFIR. SHIA SUNNI fasadaat are an example of it. We cannot so far eliminate this fight among two brothers of same religion. It is the most hard luck. We dont ever try to listen and understand the other in his idealogy. This is not alone your problem Mr. Amir. This also is the case with me and every one else. We never reached a common conclusion point anywhere in the history.

As far as the report narrated by you is concerned, I must say that I have a very different viewpoint that collides with the very initial paragraphs you have mentioned. How can I go along the report with which I cannot agree even at the outset irrespective of whoever has written it and whatever had been his intentions and purposes. It goes:

QUOTE

"Centuries of long standing Islamic traditions in Afghanistan were in danger of being pushed aside when the soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979."

UNQUOTE

Afghanistan ever had Afghani traditions and not the Islamic traditions. I must make this point clear to you. For God sake understand it. No country has Islamic or non-islamic traditions normally. Traditions are particular to specific areas, its customs, its logics, its life style and its own history and society. If you see guns in hands of Afghans, it is their own culture and must not be called the Islamic culture. Their kids even know how to fire various guns. I am from a Pathan family basically migrated from Afghanistan. Our kids and females know how to fire various guns and are normally very much master of this tradition. I was able to fire all guns normally visible in the society when I was in sixth class. We (my father, uncles and other family members) had have so many licensed guns made of different countries and every kid of our family in that time was taught how to use them. It is our tradition and has nothing to do with Islamic studies, Islamic teachings and Islamic traditions.

QUOTE

"Ignoring Tribal and ethnic diversity the soviets ran roughshod over Afghanistan sensitivities by insisting on sweeping changes that included stripping women of the viel,requiring women to work outside of the home,Imposing literacy and instituting sweeping land reform.The Afghan Muslim response was to decleare JEHAD to cast out the Infidel(KUFFAR) from their borders.Afghans were spirited fighters because they saw their cause as a holy mandate."

UNQUOTE

I am not against taking veil if any one prefers it but as I have already clarified my viewpoint, in my opinion it is not a stipulation or condition in the light of code of ethics laid down in SOORAH-E-NOOR. However, no one was forcibly snatching the veils in Afghanistan. A few instances cannot be quoted as a fashion of the day. As far as the rape case the report specifies, one must know that the crimes are always the part of various societies and not a single country in the world could have stopped them and ruled out them totally. This was not even stopped in Taliban regime. However, they have killed so manys for such allegations where such killings were again not as per the standards of justice laid down by the advanced human approach and even purely as per Islamic approach.

The above quoted para of the report narated by you speaks about requiring women to work outside of the home,Imposing literacy and instituting sweeping land reform. In my view there was no forced labor from women, literacy must have been imposed and promoted and land reforms is the issue where every country has developed its own procedures and rules as per the need of its culture. Nothing in whole this first paragraph of report was against any islamic thought. This is the main difference with which I at the outset dont agree.

This was the first thing with which I can never agree.

I must say that Shumali Ittehad people were not the pure ones. I dont support their style of ruling where they were killing the innocents. Like-wise Talibans tenure is also not appreciable in my eyes as they had touched the peaks of rigidity. This has also been agreed in the report you have mentioned. This report states:

"Living examples of their qualities they developed through years of disiplined study in the RIGID MADERSSA SYSTEM."

Whatever qualities in one eyes they had developed but their basic frame of idealogy was based upon the peaks of rigidity as has been mentioned.

Report states:

"They are products of religious madrassas in pakistan whose roots go back to the DAR-UL-ULOOM(Seminary) in DEOBAND, India.Their history makes the Taliban inclined to organize themselves around regional associations rather than political parties".

I disagree to this para to a little extent. They might have been educated in Deobandi Madrissas but they were infact developed by some hidden hand and they were ultimately creating reasons for USA to penetrate in Afghanistan owing to its so-called security threats caused by Talibans. They indirectly worked for the cause of USA, specially Usama Bin Laden and his fellows. This was a product of the manufacturer and not of the DARULALOOM or deobandi concept.

Report states:

"Religious edicts are believed to have a divine source so they carry more authority in this society than humanitarian law that stress individual freedoms.The purpose of government is to be a reflection of the divine will(as interpreted by DEOBANDI SCHOLARS),not a guardian of individual rights and liberties as insisted upon by the west."

This is in my view an effort to defame Islam by this Farangie and is no where in favour of muslims and in favour of Islam. This appears to be an effort to show us backward and illetrate. Divine will no where restricts us to make human laws and behave humanly on issues of general life. A human isolatedly cannot define the divine will as per his own idea. This way every one's idea about divine will would be different and there would be created so many gods for various school of thoughts. Ultimately humans have to get their desipline as per their own laws, rules and regulation. Just see the traffic system. This is no where available as per divine will as divine will has nothing to do with it. It was human's requirement and was made to meet his requirement. Every human development is for its needs and the participation of divine will in such developments is that the divine will gave the human a mind and wisdom to do so. Therefore, defining the divine will as per only one sect's (deoband) belief is totally dishonesty with general mankind. If one can understand it.

Another para of report states:

"When the soviets left in defeat in 1989 a provisional Islamist government, the mujahedin(worriors of GOD[JO BAD KAY SHUMALI ETIHAD BANAY]) was put in place with the help of the U.N. and U.S. These afghan warriors, steeped in the Deobandi religious tradition were critical of a government that proclaimed the name of Islam but had a strong relationship with the U.S., and U.N.,the soviet Union and in some cases,India."

Just steeping in deobandi school of though may not be deemed as critical to Islam. I dont support Shumali Ittehad as I know who they were, but it would be injustice with all muslims of Afghanistan if the strict deobandi thoughts would be declared as the only Islam to be followed in Afghanistan.


I know my objections on this report will not be understandable for you. I dont seek any guidance from you to understand this report as I have a difference of opinon with basic creation point of Talibans against other whatever power governing the Afghanistan.

The basic point is still that we have so many sects and in the eyes of one sect all the doings of others are UN and US derived and should have been replaced by the thoughts of the objecting sect. Every sect feels itself as purest muslim having all the followable advises and education. No one wants to bring the muslims on a single plate farm. No one has the pain for his other brothers and sisters. This has since been destroying us and if we will not mend our ways, it will again destroy it. I have already mentioned that for God's Islam we are not a condition. God can create very better muslims from the Yahood-o-Nasara after destroying us all.

I seek forgiveness from ALLAH for all my wrong deeds and wish all muslims to get on to a common platefarm without indulging theirselves in Shia , Sunni , Ehal-e-Hadees , Deobandi and other such sects.

May God help all muslims in this era of difficulty.

I will at the end again mention that prosperity, power and control will never come in our hands unless we strive for education, social, financial, economial and technical development. We are hundreds of years behind the advanced nations and we have to bring ourselves equal to them if we wish to have any comparison.

I once again support the idea of equally educating our girls and boosting up their courage to get education and contribute in country's development. Since I know you will not agree to this point so I must mention that this point is only for those who can understand it.

Best regards,

Kamran
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