This is our old Accountancy Forum which is now closed and is only available for reference purposes.
Visit the NEW ACCOUNTANCY FORUM at http://forum.accountancy.com.pk/ which is open for registration and discussions.

Accountancy Forum Forum Links » Home | Profile | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 The Profession
 Students
 Canadian Immigration and ACCA, CIMA, CFA or CMA
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 8

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 12 2008 :  8:45:18 PM  Show Profile
Though many points of this post have already been mentioned in another thread, but I think it is important to mention these again in totally separate and dedicated thread. The objective of this post is to provide some guidance for career planning to aspiring students and other interested people from immigration to Canada or Australlia point of view, and particularly NOT to start CA vs ACCA debate. Reasoning provided is based on personal Canadian experience and observations spreaded over almost a decade.

First I just wanna say that I am not against Pakistani CA or CMA designations, but the point here is that a student should also see future aspects of designation from working in foreign countries point of view or for immigration purposes. Though Pakistani designations are very well respected in back home but in Canada, UK, USA, or Australlia these designations are not recognized and do not provide much benefits/exemptions. Though with Pakistani designations, a person can get immigration to a western country, but chances to get a good job are really bleak as each country accepts its own designations. Atleast this is true in Canada.

ACCA, CIMA (UK), CFA, and CMA(IMA) are the designations that can be taken in Pakistan and provide very important advantage over Pakistani CA/CMA, as these have mutual recognition agreements with Canadian designations (i.e. CGA, CMA). CIMA(UK)has MRA with Candian CMA. ICAEW CA has MRA with Canadian CA. ACCA has MRA with CGA. CFA is truly global, without any other competing local designation in any country, 100% accepted and highly respected in Canada.

ACCA has mutual recognition agreement (MRA) with CGA (one of 3 Canadian designations) as well as CPA (Australlia). It means if a student in Pakistan gets ACCA then he/she can very easily (infact with minimal efforts) get Canadian CGA or Australlian CPA. So that student can get immigration to Canada or Australlia. And I tell you that if a person enters into Canada or Australlia with CGA or CPA (which are their own designations), would not find difficulty in these countries in finding jobs. Canada is a country that attracts about 300,000 highly skilled and professional immigrants each year from all over the world that includes Pakistani accountants too. Some parts of Canada like Montreal are dominantly French speaking, which is 2nd official language besides English. So, Pakistani professionals don't find work in those parts just because of not knowing French. Thus, their job market shrinks to English speaking cities/provinces. Also, each of 3 Canadian accounting associations (i.e. CGA, CMA, CA) has more than 50,000 members (total more than 150,000). Accounting graduates of Canadian universities and colleges (who are educated and broughtup here and get the big chunk of jobs as they know the system better than new Pakistani immigrants and had more opportunities to enter job market), as well as members of other global accounting bodies like US CPA, CMA(IMA), ACCA, ICAEW, Indian/Chinese CAs are over and above 150,000 Canadian designated accountants, thus, make the situation worse. Also, Canada's population is about 30,000,000 (3 Karor only). Further, Canadian employers require and prefer Canadian designations and Canadian work experience. Thus, job market is highly competitive and Pakistani designations holders find difficulties in finding good jobs quickly that are at same level of their previous jobs. Means they don't find the same level of good jobs they have been doing in Pakistan or Middle East previously before immigration. Age, family and financial responsibilities further increase obstacles after immigration. I have seen many Pakistani CAs and CMAs, with very good accounting experiences, struggling in finding even low paying jobs in Canada and eventually applying for exemptions for Canadian designations and then studying again for years to get Canadian designations or working for US CPA/ CMA. With their families, full time work and age, people find very difficult to take expensive courses and fulfill required experience. So it becomes hard to finish designation in new country. It takes years of endurance and commitment. The reason of telling all this is NOT to scare you people, but a fact realization and to ask for PLAN AHEAD and do some career planning in early life. It would save your time, energies, resources, and efforts later. Just a side note: With all difficulties, Pakistanies are flourishing in all fields and every sphere of Canadian society. They are Member of Parliment (MPs), advisor to Prime Minister, MPPs, Counsilors, Lawyers, accountants, doctors, engineers, in govt. jobs, armed forces, police, foreign services etc. Infact, Pakistan ranks 5th in terms of Canadian immigration and almost 10,000 Pakistanis immigrate to Canada each year. Canada requires 3 years (actually, 1080 days) to live on Canadian soil before applying for citizenship, that usually takes less than a year. So, an immigrant becomes Canadian citizen in less then 4 years.

So prospective students and interested people in Pakistan should plan ahead. In my view, if a person in Pakistan can afford to do ACCA and wants to move to EU, Australlia, Canada, and eventually to USA, should do ACCA. Its also an indirect way to move to USA (in long run) and so many Pakistani, Indians, Chinese and other nationals opt this way. With ACCA, get Canadian immigration and citizenship in 4 years (3 plus 1 year waiting for oath), get Canadian CGA through MRA with ACCA, get a good job and Canadian experience, and after 4 years move to USA. During these 4 years one can get US CPA or CMA (IMA), or even without US CPA or CMA, just get a job in USA and move after 4 years based on Canadian experience and designation. Canadian designations are legally acceptable to get a job and TN visa in USA. I have seen designated accountants from asian countries including Pakistan who worked in Middle East and due to several reasons eventually moved to Canada, found diffilties in finding jobs here. What is the benefit if a student spend money, time and endless efforts in getting Pakistani designations and 10 years down the road realizes to immigrate to western countries, starts studies again at the age of 40 in new country. Rather than this way, save time, efforts, and money, do ACCA in Pakistan (in your home when dad is paying), get new country's designation through mutual recognition agreement (MRA), get immigration and citizenship, and get a job. Even that student can complete remaining courses of ACCA in new country if he/she moves before completing ACCA as ACCA courses can be taken in any country including Canada, Australlia, USA, and Middle East, and then get new country's designation using MRA.

Moreover, remember Pakistani CA or CMA results are highly market demand related. See how many members they have as of today, which means only limited number of fortunate people could successfully finish Pakistani CA or CMA. All others only did articleship or some papers or levels. What is the benefit if a student with all necessary efforts does not pass or doesn't get certificate or charter. I am quite sure many of the students of Pakistani CA or CMA are quite capable of completing ACCA, CMA (IMA), or CFA, as even with low passing rates, these designations usually do not fail a student just to restrict market supply of graduates.

CIMA(UK) also has MRA with Canadian CMA.

NO doubt, CFA is really a global designation, without a competitor, acceptable and respected everywhere in the world, but different from accounting, and comparatively more difficult than other global accounting designations.

Again, let me say that this is just my opinion based on years of experience and what I saw here. It is for those students who wanna go to western countries and get a good job and experience quickly. So they can plan ahead. I don't mean to disrespect Pakistani designations or to start totally unnecessary debate of comparing designations. I am neither ACCA nor studying for it. My intention is just to show some options to interested people who wanna come abroad and get a good job and experience. So please don't get the wrong message.

Best Wishes

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 13 2008 01:34:23 AM

EnslavedSpirit
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
47 Posts

Posted - Sep 16 2008 :  2:46:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit EnslavedSpirit's Homepage  Send EnslavedSpirit an AOL message
Dear Toronto_Boy;

Glad to read your thread, this is indeed very informative, one thing i would like to ask whether a partially qualified ACCA would get exemptions in CGA or not?
like i have cleared 6 papers of ACCA...will i be able to get exemptions being not fully qualified?

Regards
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 16 2008 :  7:13:14 PM  Show Profile
Dear EnslavedSprit

As far as I know, YES you would get partial exemptions for CGA papers based on your ACCA papers and Pakistani BCom or any other degree etc. You need to apply for equivalence or transfer credit. A candidate would get partial exemptions for prior studies on paper to paper basis for RELEVANT and ACCEPTABLE courses taken in his/her diploma/degree or certificate. You should contact provincial CGA body (i.e. the province in which you are migrating) through "customer service" or "contact us" email service and ask all specific questions. They are very prompt in answering and always glad. You should also spend some time on CGA website, national and provincial both. These are quite informative and have answers of most of your questions. Following are the links:

(1) http://www.cga-canada.org/en-ca/Pages/default.aspx This is national website.

(2) http://www.cga-ontario.org/ This is for Ontario province. If your are moving to another province, then get the link for that province's CGA website from the above national website.

You have another option. You can complete remaining papers of ACCA here in Canada and then get CGA designation through MRA. This option is less costly as compared to CGA and 5 years later you can get ICAEW through ACCA. You should visit ACCA Canada website for this option.

Regards


Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 16 2008 7:33:09 PM
Go to Top of Page

EnslavedSpirit
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
47 Posts

Posted - Sep 17 2008 :  09:05:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit EnslavedSpirit's Homepage  Send EnslavedSpirit an AOL message

Thanks for your prompt reply,
I'll check the CGA's website for more info...

I checked the ACCA Canadian website for how i can complete my remaining courses while living in canada,they have this option ....yet the site mentions that there is no tution provider in Canada for ACCA, i am afraid i cannot complete ACCA by studying myself, that is the reason i think i'll pursue for CGA in Canada so as to be able to find a proper tution and thereby complete the degree in an apropriate time period.

Since a CGA designation holder may obtain ACCA designation too through MRA like the one who compelted ACCA and looking for to obtaining CGA designation.

i think this way i can have both designations?

what you suggest?
Please comment...

Regards,

Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 17 2008 :  10:25:14 AM  Show Profile
Dear EnslavedSprit

Yes, you need one designation first to get another through MRA, either CGA or ACCA. Means after CGA you can get ACCA through MRA, but then you would not get ICAEW, because you would not get ACCA through final exams of ACCA but through MRA.

You are right, self study for ACCA might be difficult. On the other hand, one can get upto level 4 courses through Canadian Universities/Colleges and get transfer credit (See transfer credit policy). 5th, which is final "PACE" level, one must take through CGA. Other very important point is after you get your ACCA courses equivalence, you can write on resume that you are taking courses for CGA and the level you stand in. It increases probability to get a job as Canadian employers trust it much. Then you may complete part time. I would again ask to visit CGA website.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 17 2008 10:32:41 AM
Go to Top of Page

kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Sep 17 2008 :  5:14:17 PM  Show Profile

Dears,

I must say at the outset that nothing of my words should be taken against any designation. Certified General Accountants (CGAs)and Canadian CAs are of course among the internationally well renowned designations.

Notwithstanding whatever views I have about Pakistani ACCAs, I also agree that ACCA is also getting recognition as a gateway designation for getting other renowned qualifications. People use it even for being a Pakistani CA.

However, I have some reservations about the above post of my brother Toronto_Boy.

Although the above posts do not directly undermine the importance of homeland designation i.e. CA. Still, this post and a similar post on another thread leaves an impression that if some body is doing CA from Pakistan he/she is missing a train to success. Further, it also leaves an impression that Canada could only be (and should only be) a destination for professionals. These are basically not the facts.

Canada has so many merits and demerits simultaneously. We have to see weather conditions, general market conditions (as the job positions have been analyzed by Toronto_boy), our personal issues, future of our generation, our returning plans, disaster plans and so much else. This can appear differently to different persons but to me it had never been a desired destination.

One thing which we must keep in mind at the outset of getting influenced of such ideas is that can (or should) we all leave Pakistan for such destinations. I mean this must have ben analyzed keeping in view one's culture, his family set up, people dependent upon him, intimacies, restrictions and limitations. Leaving all things aside I feel every one is not in a position to leave every thing behind and get immigration opportunities. This needs to be considered in depth before making arguments. There are also religious and brought up issues of new generation but I don't discuss them in this post. Our people living at Lahore don't even go to Faisalabad even for double salaries. I have witnessed it. Why? So many answers can come.

I don't know if some body feels that CA is not a rewarding profession in Pakistan. We have a habit of comparing remunerations of fresh professionals (working in Pakistan) with experinced ones (working abroad) to make conclusions. Door kay dhole hamesha suhaaney lagtey hein but when they come nearer to the ears they sometimes sound unbearable. I am working in Pakistan and I can surely say that I am earning at least 60-70 percent of what I can earn abroad taking effect of all incidental costs. However, if I account for the qualitative and other hidden factors and impacts I may find myself better working here. Again this statement does not mean that we cannot explore better opportunities abroad. Still Pakistan is not a bad market for CAs at least for next 50 years. I bet.

Idealy the first destination for Pakistanis is UAE and middle east. No one can ignore this fact. Pakistani CAs are among the most recognised and well paid professionals over there. If some body has doubts I can debate on it.

The other destination could be Europe and keeping in view the language issues UK appears to be a best option. ACA from ICEAW is now on 3 papers distance after having done CA from Pakistan.

The next could be Australia being another english speaking country having fabulous opportunities. If a Pakistani CA gets ICEAW's qualiication, he can get ICAA's CA designation in free due to mutual agreement of ICEAW and ICAA.

For these three destinations there appears no need to do ACCA. I think I am clear on what I have written.

Russia is not preferable I think due mainly to language reasons and huge cultural differences.

Now the important regions left are USA, Caymans Island and Canada etc. In Caymans Islands, Pakistani CAs are well accepted and they are earning well. In USA the prime qualification is CPA. CPA has also started in Pakistan. There is no need to do do ACCA for it. It could be directly started here. The last remaining country is Canada. I agree that it has attractions for having easiest migration process. Still, I know Ph.Ds of other countries are working on resturants at Canada. One must assess what could be situation of a country where such a huge number of professional people are produced by its own institutions. For Canada an ACCA may have somewhat better opportunities due to there MRA with CGA. However, there could also be number of other routes as well. ACCA is not an exception. If one needs to know I can make a network analysis.

So, I must request that one should not assess the depth of water keeping in view only his own height. This is not to degrade some one. This is basically conclusion of a story where a small horse was afraid of depth of river water and he got different opinions from different people about such depth which basically were dependent on every one's own height i.e. circumstances.

Students have been sending me emails after reading post of Toronto_boy. I must say this is very innocent age. We must not ruine some one's dreams by just describing what we personally experienced based upon our own circumstances. We can do so but for doing it we must keep in view the issues of others at large.

I hope this will be taken positively.


Regards,



KAMRAN.
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2008 :  03:42:39 AM  Show Profile
Dear Students and Contributors

In my above post, I have clearly mentioned that I don't mean to go in CA vs. ACCA debate. There is no doubt that Pakistani CA and CMA are very well respected in Pakistan. In my view it is totally unnecessary as its up-to one's decision what he/she wants to do in life, what stream one selects, and where he/she wants to see himself/herself in 5, 10, 15, and 20 years time frame. I have also mentioned that neither I am ACCA nor studying for it. I did not only mention merits of ACCA but also CIMA(UK), CFA, and CMA(IMA) from immigration to NOT ONLY Canada but also to other western countries point of view including Australia, UK, and USA. MY POST IS FOR THOSE ASPIRING STUDENTS AND INTERESTED PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD TO PAY FOR FOREIGN DESIGNATIONS IN PAKISTAN AND WANT TO GO ABROAD LATER NOT ONLY TO CANADA BUT TO ANY OTHER ABOVE MENTIONED COUNTRIES AND WANT TO GET NEW COUNTRY'S DESIGNATION QUICKLY TO BE CALLED DESIGNATED THERE. My post is not for people who do not want to cross “Khala” (a water stream to water fields), but for those who want to explore LAND OF OPPORTUNITIES. For them, “Sitaron say aagay jahan aur bhi hain.”

As far as recognition of ACCA is concerned, abroad it is completely recognized in UK and in other western countries it provides humongous advantage over Pakistani CA/CMA to get new country’s designation. In Pakistan, market forces would define its worth with time. My or someone else’s likeness or dislikeness would not effect its value. Diamond is a diamond, no matter someone likes it or not.

I never said that Pakistani CA or CMA cannot bring success in life, but as far as abroad is concerned, these do not do the same. Similarly, I never said that Canada could only be (and should only be) a destination for professionals. It is nothing but a wrong conclusion. I provided the case for immigration to western countries including Australia, UK, USA, and Canada and provided EXAMPLE of Canada to which I know better then someone who has probably never been here and comments from 16,000 miles away, without probably having any western exposure/experience. It totally depends upon personal choices and available options where a person wants to move, provided he/she has decided to move somewhere in first place, Canada could be ONE of the options not the ONLY. As far as facts are concerned about Canada, nowadays the waiting time for Canadian immigration applications in Canadian embassy in Islamabad is almost 4 to 5 years. Means such a large number of Pakistani skilled professionals have applied for Canadian immigration that they would have to wait for 4 to 5 years. It shows the perceived value of Canadian immigration to Pakistanis. Applicants in other western embassies and probable immigrants to other western countries are over and above and needless to mention. This is also a fact that each year about 10,000 Pakistanis immigrate to Canada (and 4 years later become Citizen) and Pakistanis with Indians, Bangladeshis, and Srilankans are the LARGEST visible minority in Toronto, surpassed Chinese and Italians. My post was for these aspiring Pakistanis and students who see themselves here after some years to PLAN AHEAD. Its my firm belief that those courageous students who can work hard and can put endless and fruitless efforts for Pakistani designations can take challenges to go in western countries and prove themselves. Pakistani designations are not the only available option for success in life. This is not end of the world but the world is there even beyond Pakistani CA/CMA. My objective is to encourage students who are UNNECESARILY failing in Pakistani designations even after required efforts, to show them what other options they can explore, and that Pakistani CA is not end of the world. Again, my post is for those students who can AFFORD to pay for foreign designations in Pakistan. No doubt, besides one’s personal goals, objectives, and aspirations, Pakistani designations could be best least cost options.

Moreover, earnings AFTER CA may not be a good argument for many who are looking for stability and quality of life in a society where a person can easily be murdered for Rs. 2000 mobile. What about those 98% students who would not get through the CA program? Has anyone estimated %age of earnings of those failed students if they had passed some other foreign designation in Pakistan and remained in Pakistan or eventually moved abroad? Based on personal choices, one may not prefer to go abroad, but the fact is vast majority of Pakistanis actually wanna go abroad. So, rather then imposing one’s choices on others, experienced people should provide all available options to students and let them and their parents decide what is better for their future.

Its upto one’s option if he/she wanna spend time and efforts to enter into elite club of about 4000 professionals (please correct me for exact membership of ICAP since its inception in 1961). But where are those thousands of discouraged students who did only articleship, few papers or levels? They have been paying annual membership fees and exam fee for years without getting any certificate in the end and thus contributed toward operating cost of ICAP, and shared the cost to provide luxury to full members of ICAP. Would they opt to go for Pakistani designations again if they get the opportunity to go in past and correct their mistakes about career planning if they had option of ACCA, CIMA, CMA(IMA) or CFA? My post was for those students to FORESEE and PLAN AHEAD for their options. By the way, how many Pakistani CAs or CMAs send their REAL sons or daughters, brothers and sisters, into Pakistani designation programs, SPECIALLY IF THEY CAN AFFORD TO PAY FOR FOREIGN DESIGNATIONS OR SEND THEM ABROAD? How many Army Generals in Pakistan send their real sons in Army (I am not talking about Colonels and Majors here, but Generals)? I don’t know when Pakistanis would leave self ego, hypocrisy, and leg pulling behind and would start giving same advice to other unrelated persons that they would give to their own real sons.

Yes, it is true that not every one can leave the country or one should see several factors before moving abroad. Still, large masses of our population have this wish to move abroad, including students of accounting in Pakistan. Those are the audiences of my post, not those who cannot go from Lahore to Toba Tek Singh. Contrary to the statement, the fact is many people from Toba Tek Singh and other towns are very courageous to go abroad. Still, if someone does not wanna move, its his/her personal choice, my sole intention is to provide options by educating about ACCA, CIMA, CMA (IMA), and CFA.

No doubt Pakistani CA or CMA can go to any country and get work, as long as they get WORK VISA these days, which is highly doubtful in today’s Pakistan’s political and international standing. Golden days are gone for them. With Global Accounting Alliance (GAA) and recent MRAs among GLOBAL associations, members of global associations are getting new country’s designations and memberships quickly. Thus limiting future of Pakistani CAs and CMAs in countries where they were used to go. NOW why an employer in Cayman would hire a Pakistani CA/CMA, from 15,000 miles away, if he can easily find any global designation holder? If the answer is because they agree at less (or cheaper) than any other global designation holders then the case to get foreign designations in Pakistan is automatically proved. Further, in any case, Pakistani designation is NOT PREFERED ONE in any specific country including Cayman, UK, USA, Australia, or Canada. Generally speaking, Pakistani designation holder would not get high profile job and would not enjoy same esteem as he was enjoying in Pakistan, as in outside world no one knows about Pakistani designations. These are UNRECOGNIZED designations abroad in ANY western country. Each country prefers and respects its own designations first. Moreover, in order to maintain their acceptability in new country, Pakistani CA/CMAs eventually try to get another western designation. Here my argument comes when I ask to save time, energies, and efforts and PLAN AHEAD if someone wants to go abroad 10 years down the road.

As far as I know, till date, Pakistanis can work but cannot settle in UAE and Middle Eastern countries due to several reasons. Yes, again its one’s choice if he wanna work in Middle Eastern country with bearing all humiliation (Arabi vs. Ajmi). This is why a vast majority of professionals including Pakistani accountants move toward western countries (and get western designations) once they are exposed to quality life and don’t wanna go back and their kids are growing up. Further, in designation neutral countries like UAE and Middle East, no sane person can say that western designations like ACCA, CIMA(UK), CMA (IMA) or CFA are less respected or earn less then Pakistani CAs/ CMAs. Fact is majority of the people in Middle East (including Pakistani, Indians, Bangladeshis, Filipinos and including their own nationals etc.) do study for western designations. Moreover, though its personal choice, but still practically speaking how many Pakistanis would prefer to go to UAE or Middle East if they have option to go to UK, Australia, Canada or USA?

Regarding getting ICAEW after Pakistani CA with 3 additional papers, the whole scenario collapse if a student does not get Pakistani CA in first place. If a student enters into elite club of 4000 CAs THEN he/she can do ICAEW otherwise NOT. It is the main hurdle that 98% of Pakistani CA students would not cross. Other global designations provide alternative solution. See, the point is if someone gets ACCA, CIMA, CMA(IMA) or CFA, he/she can work in Pakistan, Middle East and can get other global designations. But this is not true for Pakistani designations.

Getting ICAAs membership through MRA with ICAEW is based again upon getting admittance into Pakistani CA in first place, which is again a false illusion and wrong argument based on reason provided in above paragraph. In Pakistan it is said that only 2% students actually get CA designation. Means 98% of students would not be chartered, thus, there is 98% probability that they would not be ICAEWs or ICAAs. Yes, those unfortunate students and their parents would be paying fees to run ICAP and to provide luxury to its FULL members. That’s why members of ICAP cannot afford to lose students (who are sharing cost with them), are scared from introduction and penetration of foreign global designations in Pakistani markets. They know that they cannot increase their market share in outer world but can lose their share in existing Pakistani market. Students of ICAP can (and should) easily calculate decrease in revenues of ICAP (in terms of annual fee plus exam fee), resulting, increased annual membership cost to FULL members, if enrollment in ICAP decreases by let say 2000 students in one year.

As far as need to get ACCA to get ICAEW is concerned, students can decide by themselves which route is easy. Do ACCA and then automatically get ICAEW 5 years later or do Pakistani CA and then ICAEW (in which case 98% student would not get CA or ICAEW). Any person can decide which route is easy.

Now, come to Cayman, USA, and Canada. Pakistani accountants are surviving in Cayman because they get another western designation besides Pakistani designation to compete with other global designations holders. Even they do not settle there for ever and eventually move to USA, Canada, Australia or UK. How many Pakistani CAs are there who don’t have other western designations and live there for rest of their lives? Again, my argument prevails, save time and efforts in Pakistan if someone would have to eventually get a western designation 10 years later after Pakistani CA and would have to move to UK, Australia, USA, or Canada. Moreover, CPA has NOT started in Pakistan, but ONLY PREPARATION for CPA is available in Pakistan. CPA exams are offered ONLY in USA. So, a student from anywhere in the world including Pakistan MUST have to go to USA to appear in CPA’s 4 exams, if he has a valid US Visa. Acceptance of Pakistani experience and courses toward 150 credit hour requirement is also debatable. Further, let me say it loudly that I am not providing advantages of ACCA in Pakistan alone but also CIMA(UK), CMA (IMA), and CFA also. I did not mentioned CPA in my original post as I knew that CPA exams are not being offered in Pakistan or elsewhere in the world except USA. Also, satisfaction of other requirements of CPA would probably be more difficult for Pakistani students. Still, if a student can go for US CPA, sure, go ahead for it. It is one of the best designations with almost 350,000 full members. Now, eventually a question comes in mind, why members of ICAP provide the case for all other designations like ICAEW, ICAA, or even CPA which are NOT YET AVAILABLE in Pakistan, but argument against ACCA or other designations that ARE AVAILABLE in Pakistan CURRENTLY? A decision should be made on EXISTING conditions not based on FUTURE availability. Moreover, regarding Canada, yes, ACCA is not the exception to get CGA. CIMA(UK) and ICAEW also have MRAs with Canadian CMA and CA. But, all these 3 designations i.e. ICAEW, CIMA(UK), and ACCA MUST be achieved through FINAL EXAMS, and not based on Pakistani CA/CMA, as Pakistani CA/CMA are UNRECOGNIZED designations. No other “network analysis” is available or required. It is straight forward fact. Also, what is the need for network analysis? A student in Pakistan, if he/she can AFFORD, should simply do ANY of ACCA, CIMA(UK), CMA (IMA), or probably US CPA and the whole world is open WITHOUT further efforts. Aim of my original post was to save this “network analysis” later in life, at the age of 35 and with family and kids, IF SOMEONE MOVES ABROAD.

What is the relationship between my personal circumstances and availability of global designations like CIMA(UK), CMA(IMA), CFA, or ACCA in Pakistan. My objective is to advise PROSPECTIVE ASPIRING students and INTERESTED PEOPLE who wanna go abroad to PLAN AHEAD and to provide them career planning advice in advance. It has no relationship with my personal circumstances. My or someone else’s personal likeness or dislikeness would not change the fact that all these are GLOBAL designations and provide advantage over Pakistani CA/CMA as far as working in foreign countries is concerned. Why people are afraid if any student would get any of above designations in Pakistan, would do a reasonable job in Pakistan, and one day if he/she wants to move to any of foreign country, the transition would be easy with avoidable efforts? I don’t see any correlation between this fact and my personal circumstances. Probably, someone is confused in distinguishing between “personal circumstances” and observations of ground realities and real Canadian experience. How come providing options to students be “ruining” their career. Why some people are scared of providing information to students about various available options in Pakistan? Is information a dangerous thing? After all each student is the best judge of his/her goals in life. Why do we have this mentality in back home that only Pakistani CA is the last thing in the world and rest is garbage? The people who belong to elite club of 4000 professionals are actually ruining careers of many bright students who could have achieved any other designation if they had taken the right decision in their early life. Further, I don’t disrespect students by saying them “innocent age” as I believe that they can take the right decision if they are provided with all available options and information. I don’t wanna hide their options from them just to keep one's eliteness intact. Here, a Pakistani wadayra “lord” comes into mind who does not wanna let people explore new opportunities just to keep his own privilege. Age of 18 is a voting age. A person can get commission in Armed Forces of Pakistan at the age of 19. Last but not least, Rashid Minhas took the right decision and bacame martyred at the age of 21. It is the responsibility of people who know more to pass COMPLETE information to others so the students can take right decision.

Again and again, I say loudly that the objective of my post is neither to start useless CA vs. ACCA debate nor I am against Pakistani designations or mean to degrade them. I don't know how a person can catch such a false impresion. Thanks to monopolistic policies of associations these are good in Pakistan, BUT UNRECOGNIZED abroad and both of these are facts whether someone accepts it or not. My audiences are those aspiring students and interested people who can AFFORD to pay for any of these designations and wanna go abroad in some stage of their lives. I have already said, and mention here again that I am not ACCA. Also, I have presented the case from immigration point of view for not only ACCA, but also CIMA(UK), CMA(IMA), CFA, and CPA (USA). Still, if any bright student wanna be among 98% unfortunate students, then its his/her choice.

I have presented my reasoning, and now its upto the reader how to interpret and deduce conclusions. Its not even in my interest to go into debate that which designation is good or which is less good. It is totally useless to me now. I would be glad to share my knowledge about the said global designations with interested people, but no further comparison with Pakistani designations please. If someone wants to satisfy himself by comparing designations or by promulgating Pakistani designation’s superiority, then he/she should express views at CA vs. ACCA thread or somewhere else. This thread was started with defined objective of providing information about global designations that are available currently in Pakistan to aspiring students and interested people who wants to go abroad in future, from career planning point of view. Please don’t ruin it as it won’t benefit to anyone. It won't effect my life or a Pakistani designated accountant's life that is already settled, either here or there. It would confuse students and limit their available options. Please let them take informed decisions and advise them what one would do to his real siblings.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 18 2008 7:25:56 PM
Go to Top of Page

EnslavedSpirit
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
47 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2008 :  10:21:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit EnslavedSpirit's Homepage  Send EnslavedSpirit an AOL message
Dear Toronto_Boy;

Clarity of your message is well understood from your posts and indeed appreciateable, i have also been among the victims of ICMAP's strict exam policies, struggled hard to manage upto stage-3 in 3 years and was frustrated enough to finally deciding to look for any global qualification, firstly i was interested to go for CMA (IMA) as it appeared to be the most suitable designation because of being closely correlated to the studies i have had so far with ACMA pathways, However i could not find any good teacher and learning facilities in Karachi for this degree therefore was compelled to go for ACCA. Perhaps this is the ONLY global qualification in pakistan with plenty of resource material and abundant faculty to guide you anytime.
I appreciate your insightful posts to help us knowing about the best available options for Pakistani students, i think "Availability" of Global Designations has opened a plenty of opportunities for 98% MAZLOOM, deserving and ever struggling accountancy students to get the reward of their labour.

i was wondering about the ICAEW designation after ACCA, can you tell me how it is to be obtained?

Thanking you
Regards,

Go to Top of Page

kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2008 :  5:23:10 PM  Show Profile

Dears,

Like ever it had again been pushed into ACCA v/s CA debate which was in fact not the aim either of this thread or of my post. In fact this was a thread to discuss local and foreign designations and opportunities.

First of all I don't know how one can exclude Pakistan when talking about globalization more specifically when some MRAs have been finalized and some MOUs are under discussion. Further, theoretically speaking, one cannot ignore that to-date 888 ICAP members (out of total 4110) are working abroad in diversified regions and this 22% is not insufficient to conclude the facts with positive mind.

It's also a good joke to call a designation as KHALA by a person who personally admits that approximately 98% "looking ahead people" (like him) normally face failure in crossing such KHALA. No further comments. I don't and cannot undermine the importance of any international designation. I also don't want to be personal with Toronto_Boy. I know his aim was not bad and his post may be called informative as well. But it was and is still portraying a picture that there is no life except western countries and if some one is not going to ride the immigration train he is supposed to have missed the road to success.

I personally know what Arbi Ajmi issues are faced at Middle East but I wonder how one ignores the treatment given to Pakistanis in those western countries. I wonder if some one does not know how much those western people hate Pakistanis. I am not talking about whose fault is this or what are the reasons for such treatment. I know very respectable people whose trousers were undressed at such "quality life" air ports just because they were muslims, having beard and were Pakistanis. You know people don't even rent out their homes to Pakistanis in such western countries. They prefer Indians rather. This all is a friction among humans on various basis either it is due to Ajmi Arbi issue, religious grounds, moderate-ism and fundamentalism issues, or something else and no part of the world is free from it. There was a time (before Pakistan) when British used to place sign boards outside their clubs and hotels mentioning "INDIANS AND DOGS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER".

I would request not to present wrong snaps of the situation. And yes don’t feel that I am unaware of what Canada is. My very close friend (a Chartered Accountant) is at Canada. My real cousin who is Ph.D. doctor and the member of the one and only team who successfully did cloning here in Pakistan is Canadian Citizen with his wife and all kids. Although he does not live at Canada. Our client and one renowned businessman had been a Canadian Ambassador to Pakistan at some point of time. Canada is not something out of the world or out of perception. I want to make correction to the record that CAs don’t take 4-5 years for getting Canadian Immigration. This is a matter of months for them if they wish to do it.

I also don’t talk about army generals as they make 0.00000001% of our population. I personally had the majority of my family members settled at Western countries and it is not a big deal to go and settle there. Apart from family connections HSMP is calling with open arms which process takes 6 to 8 months only. I know merits and demerits of such life which I again avoid to discuss being not the focal point. Every one has his own preferences and circumstances and must accept that the circumstances of other may not be exactly the same. My brother (FRCS doctor) is settled at UK because it suits him. I am not because it does not suit me. However, this is not a privilege game or competition to describe our connections or quality of life we live or others don’t live. I also know and accept that there are certain conditions which do not make Pakistan an ideal place to live at. But this again was not the central point of this thread. Had it been so I would have clearly given my comments as I did in other threads. I would again say that every place has its own merits and demerits and heaven does not exist on earth.

In reply to my post so much has been written without logic and analysis and if I will go to reply each and every thing this will in fact start a personal debate which I want to avoid. There could be so many such examples. I just quote one example that when Pakistani designation was discussed in other countries it is said that they are bound to get foreign designation as well. At the same time it is mentioned that such designations are country specific. If designations are country specific then every one either he is CPA from US or CA from ICEAW or CA from Pakistan or else will have to meet certain requirements to get such other designation. I must say that no one should forget that at the end of day he is a Pakistani and there is always a chance to get back to home. We must not forget what happened when Iraq attacked on Kuwait and when 9/11 event took place at US. And if this is a fact, and if designations are normally supposed to be country specific (I am not talking about ACCA for which I reserve my comments being not the subject matter) then one must not forget that CPA from US or CGA from Canada or CPA from Australia, CIMA from UK and ACCA from UK will NEVER get what they expect, in their homeland. This is the other side of the picture. How could it be ignored.

I also wonder if 5 years working after qualifying ACCA to get ICEAW designation carry no meaning for my brother and just 3 papers after CA carry huge burden just because he feels CA is impossible in Pakistan. I must say CA in Pakistan is not impossible. If majority fails, majority should find reasons for its failure. Majority also fails in other fields such as ISSB, Medical entrance test, securing sufficient marks to enter engineering, getting cricket test cap, being a part of some other class such as celebrity or game or education groups etc etc. CA is not an exception. This is no argument to be made.

Actually every designation has its own worth and is recognized at other locations at its own self, or by mutual recognition, exemptions or at least by having similar curriculum and base of knowledge. There is one or the other way by which things could always be sorted out. My objective was to place the other view on record for the students who were facing whims and doubts created by their "Innocent" minds on reading the incomplete and one sided though informative post of Toronot_Boy. Innocent is by no means a wrong word which can only show lack of exposure. God says his Prophets are innocent and angles are innocent. This cannot be taken in the meaning derived by Tornoto_Boy. Facts should be admitted. Here Innocence means the situation of indecisiveness and desperateness due to lack of proper guidance, improper behavior of seniors, age factors, over ambitiousness etc etc. We can debate on examples quoted by Toronto_Boy like Rashid Minhas and can conclude that he was an innocent and did his brave act in such innocence. I mean if i discuss the whole 1971 scenario. This, however, is not desired at this thread and it would be better to avoid unrelated things.

I don't want to go in further length on personal issues. This forum knows I can handle such situations very well. I just don't want to do it because I know Toronto_boy misinterpreted my message which was not aimed at to hit him personally. I in fact received mails from students who were quite disturbed seeing his posts. That's why the other side of the picture was necessary to be portrayed.


Regards,



KAMRAN.



Go to Top of Page

khani
Junior

110 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2008 :  5:41:10 PM  Show Profile  Send khani an AOL message
Kamran bhai. no doubt that u are a good leader of pakistani students going for CA and also other studies ,but please dont jump in the battle field if some one else is providing a usefull information to the pakistani young boys.I seek appology If my words hurt you.


I also want to ask Mr toronto boy please tell something about CGA in canada and CPA of Aussi.

1) Is CGA doing external audit of Public Limited Companies in CANADA?
Go to Top of Page

khani
Junior

110 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2008 :  6:15:28 PM  Show Profile  Send khani an AOL message
Sab se bari bat kia paiessa hi sab kuch hai. kia toronto boy u keep a faith on Kisamat?
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2008 :  8:33:36 PM  Show Profile
Dear Students and Contributors

Without going into further useless CA vs. ACCA kind of debate, I just wanna clear some misconceptions or probable false impresion here. First, in reply to argument that some people don't want to go to Faisalabad from Lahore, I wrote, "My post is not for people who do not want to cross “Khala” (a water stream to water fields), but for those who want to explore LAND OF OPPORTUNITIES. For them, “Sitaron say aagay jahan aur bhi hain.”" How come one can deduce conclusion that I said "KHALA" to Pakistani designations? I used this analogy for those people who don't cross small canals that waters their fields, don't go in search of bread, and NOT for Pakistani designations. Any person who has background from village can better understand this term. What a wrong conclusion one can get!!!

Moreover, from my posts, probably some people can have totally wrong impresion that I am a former drop-out of Pakistani designation programs. Just to correct their false impresion, without divulging my personal details, I just wanna say it loudly that I never studied any course of accounting in Pakistan at any level or for any degree. I didn't even know what Dr. or Cr. is when I was in Pakistan. So, please don't presume it about me.

Further, in old days, points based marking on a typical Canadian immigration application was actually based on weight/points assigned to different professions and qualifications. As an update for many of you, nowadays, points are based on length of number of schooling years. For immigration purpose, assessment criteria does not distinguish between types of qualifications but values LENGTH OF QUALIFICATION based on years and assigns a number to it. Please follow the links below to have a quick self assessment test. It does not say anywhere that Pakistani designations holders would get any special treatment for immigration. Nowadays, no one can bypass queue (that ranges from minimum 65 to maximum 70 months waiting time) of applications just based on profession, including Pakistani accounting designations, like it could be the case in old days. Also, why Pakistani designations would be highly valued qualifications for immigration, specially in presence of thousands of designated and non-designated accountants already prevalent in Canada and non-recognition of Pakistani designations here? One may correct this false pretence that Canadian immigration is a matter of months for Pakistani designations holders.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-factors.asp

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/assess/index.asp

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/international/02a-skilled-fed.asp#asia

http://www.international.gc.ca/missions/pakistan/visas/immigrating-immigrer-eng.asp

I also don't wanna go on discussion of one's personal choices or TOTALLY UNNECESSARY personal conflicts, simply because it won't benefit anyone. My presence on this forum is just to add value for career planning of students and to provide them exposure of outside world. My aim is not to "handle" someone. Thanks to my living in a democratic and tolerant society, I have learned to avoid such mindset generally prevalent in back home.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 19 2008 05:54:49 AM
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2008 :  9:29:05 PM  Show Profile
Dear Students and Interested People

Response of students has proved that essence of this thread is clearly relayed. Please understand that I am not an education councilor of any global accounting designation. For specific questions, please contact "Contact us" or "Customer Service" through email available on website of each of accounting associations. The websites are quite informative source for general questions. Regarding Canadian immigration, please visit Canadian High Commision's website in Islamabad for info, to download forms, or to see evaluation criteria and details. One can and should also visit Canadian Immigration Department's official website.

EnslavedSpirit: I think another person has already responded to your quetion. However, I would suggest to visit ICAEW's website specially under CCAB arrangement. In my personal view, you took the right decision by re-assesing your condition and re-aligning your goals. Worst come worst, even if you pass one course of ACCA every 6 month, even then you would be ACCA one day. Thats why I ask students to save their time, efforts, resources, and energies, evaluate themselves, don't take the burden they can't bear, and don't go for super ambitious plans. There are many options availabe that could suit your condition. Sort them out.

Ad2478: I am sorry that I can't help you, as your questions are too specific. It depends upon several factors, such as whether your program is recognized nationally (in Pakistan)and internationally etc. Which CMA? CMA Canada or CMA (IMA). Requirements are different for each of these. Please contact them directly and visit their websites. I am sorry, I couldn't help you much.

Khani: Yes, CGAs are in public accounting. Regarding money, both kind of arguments are available, its upto you what you pick. Further, I am firm believer of destiny written by Allah, both, one that is fixed (like life) and the other which is flexible (depending on efforts). Probably, you can say it luck too.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 19 2008 08:53:46 AM
Go to Top of Page

EnslavedSpirit
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
47 Posts

Posted - Sep 19 2008 :  2:35:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit EnslavedSpirit's Homepage  Send EnslavedSpirit an AOL message

Dear Kamran bhai,

You have rightly indicated the concerns, However they are irrelevant to the topic initiated by Toronto_Boy, you may start a new thread with this topic where everyone would surely like to express their opinion regarding the same.

hope you understand.

Dear Toronto Boy & ad2478;
Thank you for your informative responses!

Please keep up the good work!
Regards,
Go to Top of Page

kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Sep 19 2008 :  4:00:44 PM  Show Profile

Dear Khani and Others,


A wrong impression has been derived at the outset that my message was to contradict the post of Tornoto_Boy in entirety. I agreed that his post was informative. However, I seriously felt and so many of you (more precisely speaking CA students) made me to feel that his post was describing one side of the picture.

There is no harm in getting international designations. This is not a matter of contradiction. At this point of time if some one has more than one qualification it’s also an asset. If forum members remember they must know that a long debate was done where I argued that more than one qualification and especially international qualifications are meant to be a big advantage in this globalize world.

The issue which was focused in my post was intended to clarify two things. Firstly, there was an impression (that may be inadvertently portrayed) that Canada is the only destination in the world. One needs to be clarified that so many other locations may have much more opportunities and potential for professionals. I don't want any one to agree with my personal view but it’s a fact that even UAE is better than Canada for Pakistanis on so many grounds. I have been recently contacted by a female from Canada who saw my discussions on some forum and wanted to know about how to proceed to UAE with her husband who was also a qualified professional. At this point I again say that it is the matter of personal judgment and preferences can vary from case to case. So this was a necessary clarification for those who were caught up of doubts.

Secondly, the saying that CA from Pak does not have opportunities for recognition in other countries was also wrong and it was necessary to clarify it. This clarification was not undermining the importance of Canadian CA or CGA etc. I explained that most of such qualifications are country specific charters and have somewhat recognition, exemption, acceptance etc at other places. ICEAW's MOU with ICAP is a big step forward in this regard. I don't know what Canadian CA Institute has arrangements with ICEAW but certainly ICAA (Australia), ACCA (UK) and certain other international designations have such recognition arrangements with ICEAW. Any such institute in the world, if has such arrangements with ICEAW (and even with ACCA) then it's indirectly having similar opportunities for Pakistani CAs. This needs to be understood precisely and with open hearts. There was logic behind getting into MOU with ICEAW first of all. Facts need to be understood. Such arrangement if provides good opportunities to others then they are equally applicable in case of Pakistani designations.

So this was a brief display of other side of picture which was missing from that informative post of Tornoto_Boy making it reflective of wrong conclusions for Pakistani CA students. There was a fullest need to clarify these issues. One has to see it from Pakistani CA students’ perspective. This was not merely jumping into irrelevant discussion. I even did not do it when it was not brought to a separate thread.

There was in fact no connection of this post with ACCA vs CA debate which was concluded by others mistakenly. My viewpoint about Pakistani ACCAs (I stress Pakistani ACCAs) is my personal view and I am firmly standing on my conclusion about a specific failure class (and not all the ACCAs) who find refuge in such other charters. Personal views may, however, be biased or mis-judged. This last sentence is a general statement.

"Handling" was mentioned for situation and not for a person.

Like-wise “like him” was meant for “Looking Ahead” and not for failed ones. If some one has intimacies and good views for failed ones or refugees of CA I don’t mind his personal sympathies based on whatever reasons. I may be wrong in deducing inference about Khala. I am also from a zamindaar village back ground and understand well what Khala stands for.

We should not debate on what is quality of life and what is more democratic on this forum otherwise it would be a long discussion.

There is not only one way to enter Canada i.e. HSMP. If you see my post I discussed HSMP for UK and not for Canada. Entering Canada for an established CA is not a matter of years. Mind it. Does some one need more reliable professionally qualified/judged legal opinion for this to understand?

I hope this post of mine must clear the thin line between what I wanted to convey and what have been deduced by others. It's pleasant to see that no wrong conclusion has been derived from my post by CA students.


Regards,



KAMRAN.
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 20 2008 :  12:19:03 AM  Show Profile
Dear Students and Interested People

In my above posts, I have already asked to save time and efforts to students who want to compete in global markets by getting international designations. In today’s world, if EVENTUALLY one would be COMPELLED to get an international designation, then why not in first place, specially those who can afford today and wants to go abroad in future. Students of Pakistani accounting associations should think and accept that indirect route of foreign qualifications i.e. AFTER successfully completing their program and getting charter/certificate is the MAIN HURDLE in getting 2nd international designation that is LINKED to FIRST getting Pakistani designation under any MOU like with ICAP. 98% of entrants would not achieve this goal neither Pakistani designation nor foreign, if they adopt this INDIRECT route. Eventually, they (i.e."refugees of CA" in language of their hero, atleast now they should understand this privilaged game) would be lined-up for getting private MA (Economics) forms, LLB admissions, or local private and probably unrecognized MBA programs, in order to fill-up deficiencies in their education, just like their predecessors. ONLY members of elite club of 4000 professionals would be able to get 2nd international designation, NOT ordinary students of Pakistani accounting associations. It is an attractive but false illusion and a bait to allure them, being marketed to them by Pakistani associations. Why not students who can afford should go and get it DIRECTLY in FIRST PLACE? Though it is a personal choice based on one’s goals and circumstances, but still questions raised in my 2nd long post above remain intact. Students should think about those with objective and independent state of mind without influence and bias. Moreover, almost all Pakistani designated CAs/CMAs do struggle in Canada to achieve their acceptance in north american highly competitive markets. They try to get Canadian/US designations here through direct or indirect paths, apply for exemptions and study again for years with all difficulties that I have mentioned in first post. Students can see evaluation criteria of Canadian CA association for Pakistani designation holders in the following link. Thats why members of Pakistani accounting associations complain about Canada, because she does not give them red carpet treatment. Again, my question to students remain valid that if they would do hardwork later for foreign association, then why don't do it in first place? Again, if they do it INDIRECTLY, then why not directly?

Without going into personal conflicts with anyone, I just want to explain some fallacies created by people over the years.

Arguments about merits and demerits of any country or region are highly debatable and depend upon personal views and conditions, certainly NOT the objective of this thread. One should open a new thread for other interested participants.

Moreover, logic developed for Pakistani CAs based on MOU with ICAEW and saying that if other accounting institutes have such arrangements with ICEAW then it's indirectly having similar opportunities for Pakistani CAs (which means if institute A has arrangement with B, and B has with C, resultant, C has arrangement/opportunity for A) is basically wrong logic/argument, practically inefficient choice/decision, and creates following situation:

(1) Inefficient Choice: Again, the same question, which route provides time, efforts, and resources efficient solution to reach a goal? Logical answer is direct, NOT indirect route.

(2) Canadian CA institute CICA has arrangements (reciprocity) with ICAEW, but Pakistani CAs are specifically UNRECOGNIZED for CICA. Please see the link provided below and scroll down to the end and see unrecognized bodies for CICA. So, institute C (i.e. CICA), has arrangement for institute B (i.e. ICAEW), but NO arrangement for institute A (i.e. ICAP).

(3) Identity Loss: If a Pakistani CA gets ICAEW’s CA, even then he would get CICA’s CA based on ICAEW’s CA, and NOT based on Pakistani CA that still remains UNRECOGNIZED to CICA and cannot be presented to public in Canada. Please see representation rules in Canada. It is nothing but entry in new country through photo change on someone else’s passport. Some people are good in this trade in back home.

(4) Impractical Option: Has anyone calculated actual efforts involved in this option? Only members of Pakistani designations can provide such options. Sheer example of incompetence.

Regarding arrangements between global accounting designations, students may go on following links to nourish their knowledge and reach independent and unbiased decision.

http://www.globalaccountingalliance.com/Alliancebodies1.html

http://www.icao.on.ca/Admissions/OccupationalFactSheet/1010page1361.aspx

http://www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/125059/icaew_ga/en/Home/Join_us/Join_as_a_reciprocal_member/Joining_as_a_reciprocal_member

http://www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/157505/icaew_ga/en/public/Become_a_chartered_accountant/ACA_Worldwide/157505/ACA_training_in_Pakistan

Students should also consider that even AFTER getting FULL membership of ICAP, satisfaction of 24 MONTHS EXPERIENCE REQUIREMNT IN PRE-APPROVED TRAINING CENTRES IN PAKISTAN could be a HURDLE and HIGHLY COMPETITIVE, even if someone ignores existence of ACCA and CIMA members in Pakistan who would also be competing with them to get jobs in pre-approved training firms in Pakistan. If someone argues that applicants can go outside of Pakistan to satisfy 24 months experience requirement, then again original arguments of my previous post remain valid. Students should foresee the situation today.

Even after provision of official web-links to MAIN LEGAL SOURCE AND PRE-ESTABLISHED ASSESSMENT CRITERIA provided by Canadian GOVERNMENT for Canadian immigration in my previous post, claim of short waiting time resonates nothing but illusive and deceitful “professionally qualified legal opinions” which are generally available from so-called immigration consultants in every corner of Pakistan these days. Do professionally designated accounting practitioners in Pakistan bypass IAS (or whatever standards or established criteria they follow) and claim short cuts? This claim lacks tangible, persuasive, and sufficient evidence. By the way, I don’t know much about work ethics in practice of accounting in Pakistan, but Immigration Officers in Canadian embassies do "understand" and follow PRE-ESTABLISHED RULES given by their government strictly. And, yes, I "understand" how "reliable legal opinions" are available in Pakistan and situation of Law.

Moreover, display of other side of the picture could be discussed in detail, but it is not the OBJECTIVE of this thread. Again, one should open another thread for interested participants.

As a learning case opportunity, students should also understand and learn how our educated professionals ruin a positive initiation and activity in back home causing inverse progress.


Regards



Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Oct 14 2008 09:33:44 AM
Go to Top of Page

kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Sep 20 2008 :  3:10:18 PM  Show Profile

Dears,


Unwillingly, the above post, again requires to be replied.

I wonder how much this man is influenced by his idea of being a Canadian resident only. It's quite interesting to see his "main naa maanoo" posts although I was never intended to make him to agree. Purpose of my posts, I have already clarified, was mainly focused on the students generally confused of his "Canada Chalo" propaganda/half-truth posts. He asks others to open new thread for this purpose but personally is captured by this "Canada Chalo" idea so strictly that nothing else becomes visible to him and he does not even notice to the clarification that my posts were not aimed at to hit him personally. Rather these were to clarify the other side of picture to INTERESTED ones.

I have certainly no intimacies with total failures, less hard working, back benchers and escapers whoever they are; even if they are my real brothers. I explained majority fails doing all other things where one has to face competition. Successful are supposed to be meager in number. This is the rule of success if some one can understand. This is no privilege game at all. No body should be affected by my personal views. I never talk about those who directly start some other qualification feeling it a better option. I however never appreciate those who get failed in CA and then advocate some other designation just because they find an easy way out of it and simply blame CA for so-called reasons. Yes, I have no PROFESSIONAL sympathies for those who find refuge in such designations after getting failed at some other place. Personally I feel them likely to be treated as second option. Second options are also needed at right places. I am neither a hero of some one nor I wish others to follow what is my personal feeling. This is just a personalized narrow minded comment.

AT THE SAME TIME I have no objection if some one else has such sympathies and if some one else feels my statement is biased or else. I simply don't have to debate on a truth.

One must not forget that every one who immigrates for other designation has to make certain efforts either these are on academic side or else. This is not strange if Pakistani CA would have to do so. Further, if five years exposure after doing ACCA to get ICEAW's designation is not a big deal then certainly two years training after doing CA should also not be a big deal. If some one feels he is of course at liberty to feel so.

It's also totally one sided and substantially prejudiced view to say that if Pakistani CA would do 'so and so' qualification (after getting ICEAW's designation) it would not be at the credit of his Pakistani CA. What could be said to the wisdom of such a person? What makes the difference if some Canadian designation does not accept Pakistani CA on the basis of his Pakistani CA but at the same time accepts him on the basis of his ICEAW's CA. After all ICEAW gave him recognition on the basis of Pakistani CA. When we talk about MRAs, recognitions etc then every thing is meant for indirect recognition. I wonder why one runs form his own suggestion of having such indirect benefits from so-called MRAs of his preferred institutions.

Is not it strange that one is worried about IDENTITY LOSS by a Pakistani CA in professional capacity and at the same time wishes Pakistanis to lose their actual identity entirely due to fears of so-called globalization and think nothing else except becoming Canadian because of so-called quality life? They allege everything to “people back in home” and forget that they can never become Canadian in real sense whatever they do or whatever they say or whatever they sacrifice. They are personally from the people back at home. They are not in fact Canadians. I am familiar to see adds like "Get visa for Australia and secure your future", "Get admission in Russia and secure your future", "Get entry to Canada and secure your future". We are Pakistanis and we don't ever say "remain in Pakistan, correct the ruined situations and secure your future as well as the future of generations to come.” No wonders young man!!!

Further, nothing is marketed to any one to become a Pakistani designation holder. This of course carries no personal benefit. I have so many times highlighted that my suggestion to have Pakistani designation first of all is focused to ensure that future is at least secured in Pakistan which is the homeland. Is not it a wonder to run behind other designation like ACCA and ruin all of next 5 to 8 years in homeland just because every one cannot immigrate? Is every one who afford going abroad should also leave Pakistan. What message we are conveying. The person who is sitting in Canada cannot simply understand this. His views are just like the views of Queen of France when people complained her that they don't find flour and bread to eat and she replied, "OK then eat cakes". I know the people who don't come on merit in our universities and then opt self finance schemes just because they are from among 0.0001% population who affords it and over rules the merit.

The opinion of qualified legal consultant I referred is Canada based. Now I don't know what Canadians are. However following link states:

"Yes, corruption in Canada is hard to find, but that's more a function of the sophistication of those in power than it is a reflection of their innate honesty"

URL is:

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/klaus121206.htm

At the end I must say to suggestive people that no thread at this forum is owned by members and every one is open to post in such threads. I don't need to open a new thread when I want to clear the doubts created by this thread.

I think now the objective of this thread has become to discuss every thing which we say is not an objective of this thread. At least lingering on the one off clarification for certain students indicates this message.


Regards,




KAMRAN.

Go to Top of Page

khani
Junior

110 Posts

Posted - Sep 20 2008 :  6:22:03 PM  Show Profile  Send khani an AOL message
Sir Mr Toronto boy.
My education at the moment is ACCA affiliate and student of ICAEW for the last two papers and case study. I had made a decision at a very early stage of my study that I will not go for Pakistani CA,1)It limits you to your country, Here we have people from India doing ACCA saying the same thing.
2) In pakistan, there is some sort of a group of members of CA who do not want to increae the number of CA qualified persons in the country.
3) Mr Kamraqn has passed CA in quite quick time perhaps due to his luck and now he says that ICAP is very right in its exam success policy.
4) I have personally seen hard working students getting failed in CA exam
5) Is pakistani CA a more Big thing than ICAEW , in ICAEW we get about 85% students passing in each attemt where as in CA it is not upto that percentage. Why?
6) Icaew is developing great respect for the ACCA qualification, then why ICAP is sleeping and wrongly thinking about ACCA.
7) I am doing ICAEW ,then I will do CPA and CFA from america and then I will return to my country where no body has the guts to respect other quilification. I will show to my juniors how to respect other quilification.
8) If ICAp members want to be in first place in pakistani industry they should go on getting new and improved skills and update their knowledge rather than just looking down other degrees.They should come out of their sleep and open their eyes to the demands of tommorrow

















































































































































































































0





























Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 20 2008 :  7:41:54 PM  Show Profile
Dear Students

Now, one has been fully exposed, talking irrationally and by being on a public forum commits personal attacks in derogatory and offensive tone. This is his way of “HANDLING” and “MAIN NA MANOON” of other participants. Also, shows his expertise in ruining positive activity innitiated by others. I am quite sure, in disguise of advocacy for “innocent” and “indecisive” minds of CA students he would continue to engage and divert objective and informative discussion toward irrelevant, un-wanted, and unproductive street chat and further personal attacks. Therefore, in order to save my time, readers’ time, and bandwidth of this forum I would avoid to reply his crap in future and I would be limited to civilized, cultured, and reasonable discussion with others but him.

Dear students, I have provided various reasons to consider, assess and reach independent and objective decision for global accounting designations already available nowadays in Pakistan for your career planning purpose. Still, I would be available to help and reply your questions. I would strongly suggest to always find main source of information, and to evaluate it without any influence, rumours, merely personal statements or views.


Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 21 2008 7:35:19 PM
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 20 2008 :  8:47:30 PM  Show Profile
Dear ad2478

Feel no offence, but professional designations of ICAP/ICMAP or ICAEW/CPA (USA) should not be compared the way you guys are doing, though we may do it on professional grounds. All of these, including Pakistani associations, provide and spread knowledge, and we should respect all of these. We all should show maturity, depth, and respect for others, specially for our own associations. These may have deficiencies, so all systems and associations have, those can be evaluated, but in proper manner.

Moreover, you have hit the right point, and raised a perfect question. You wrote,"is it about "if Pakistani students are willing to go abroad they should take a foreign qualification" or something else...or is it a comparison between local and foreign qualifications?" Generally speaking, experts, consultants, and educated people in Pakistan, including our govt. intentionally or un-intentionally, create this smoke screen, spread confusion, and divert public or discussion toward unending and unproductive debates.

By the way, the original abjective of discussion was that students and interested people who can afford and wanna go abroad later in their life should consider globally designated accounting qualifications which are available today in Pakistan, to save their time, efforts, resources, and energies later when they would have more family responsiblities and other constraints. Unfortunately, it turned toward other un-wanted and irrelevant directions.

Well, lets see, where it goes. Only interested people like you who have questions on this topic can keep it on track.


Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 21 2008 11:27:32 PM
Go to Top of Page

rambo
Unregistered Trainee

34 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2008 :  06:28:13 AM  Show Profile  Send rambo an AOL message
Mr Kamran bhai are you brave enough to answer the points raised by Mr khani. Obviously you are not. May I ask a question to you as well.
When the number of CA papers were increased to 22 from 14,the numers of papers one has to pass to get PAKISTANI CA was incresed from 2 to 7/8 for ACCA qualified students and this number was kept at same digit of 2 for ICAEW PASSED STUDENTS,WHY ?

Being the starter of this thread Toronto boy has actually thrown you out of this discussion by saying that he would not answer your replies.

This thread was actually for ypung students who are coming to get admission in accounting qualification like CIMA ACCA ICAEW and a few in CA of ICAP.If u can see there are 12000 students of ACCA in pakistan.How much are there to get admission in ICAP if it was same expensive.ACCA is expensive, probably it is the reason that u can not do ACCA,otherwise u have admitted that u have been studying ACCA books for your CA papers preparations. You are no different from all othere members of CA who have passed CA in 1985 when ICAP was selling for free its degree to show its existance to ICAEW and others like AICPA.

Get understanding of future and the monopoly of ICAP is not going to last for to long I think u should collect some new ideas.
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2008 :  11:42:17 AM  Show Profile
Dear Khani and EnslavedSpirit

Khani, by seeing your future interest in CPA, in the following paragraphs I would try to provide some information about it and I would also explain working and attitude of foreign global accounting designations, in general, towards their students.

Involvement of human factor plays a vital role in passing or failing a student while evaluating exam copies. Pass/fail of a student very much depends upon agreement or disagreement of human evaluating exam copies with the answers given by students, specially professional exams with qualitative information. We all know if the evaluator would agree with the answer he would pass you otherwise a fail grade. Even if we believe that conditions, influences, and biases with all the teachers who check copies always remain constant, it is impossible. This is why we witness unexpected results. In order to avoid such situation, AICPA (for US CPA), IIA (for CIA exam), IMA (for CMA exam), CFA and almost all American exams like USMLE (medical exam), Bar exam for Law, GRE, SAT, GMAT, CISA etc. use technology in evaluating exam answers. All questions would have only one correct answer, and the computer checks the answers. No human is involved in checking answers. It brings most transparency in copies evaluation process, and is most trustable method.

If a student does not get through the exam, it is due to non-covering the depth and breadth of subject matter at certain required level. No one says to unsuccessful students that they are failed students, but they say you could not achieve certain level, so come again and try again. Next time, after more input, a student passes. Most important point is the positive attitude toward unsuccessful students and not calling them failure but asking them to input more efforts to reach passing mark (for each of 4 CPA exam 75 marks are the passing grade). Marking starts from 100 and goes down, i.e. student loses for incorrect answers, which are graded by computer not human. AICPA (American Institute of CPAs) does not fail a student just because there is no demand in job market for a passing student. They believe the supply would create its own demand. They not only teach, but actually believe and practice free market competition. Their passed students enter job markets, increase further competition, and thus, for survival, bring new ideas, do research and development and thus improve products and services, which on overall basis bring efficiencies in markets. Actual spirit of establishment of AICPA is not only to protect interests of members, but more importantly to serve public interest, and public interest would be served with more competition, not by curtailing competition. AICPA is the single largest accounting association in the whole world with more than 350,000 members (sorry I forgot the exact figure but can be checked on AICPA website). CPA exams are conducted only in USA. So, a student no matter where he/she resides, must have to go to USA to appear in exam. We can imagine what its membership would be if like other accounting associations, it starts offering exams in other countries. Also, unlike other accounting exams of other associations, a CPA student must have to pass all 4 exams within 18 months window, otherwise he/she would start losing credit for previously passed exam. AICPA believes in assessing most latest knowledge of accounting. Its not like a student passes one exam/level in one year and other level 3 years later.

The overall passing rate in one exam remains arround 40%.

Moreover, if a student does not pass, they provide assessment report that tells a student pass/fail in each area of one exam. Students know each area and assigned marks before appearing in one exam. This report tells student about their weak areas and also provide comparative analysis with passed students in that area. It brings complete transparency and helps student in assessment and preparation for next time. Please see links below;

http://www.aicpa.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_of_Certified_Public_Accountants

To see their attitude toward unsuccessful students and other very important information about CPA exams, I would strongly suggest to read pages available on following link, specially page 2 for explaination of failure;

http://books.google.ca/books?id=SC-11CcxP3UC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=passing+cpa&source=web&ots=tZtSAL9YBW&sig=kbgC1rM4iPqfairk_kC1VFMGFYw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA21,M1

I just want to emphasize that associations’ attitude toward unsuccessful students is positive, not negative. Only those students do not pass the exam who does not input required efforts to cross pre-set and computer evaluated passing marks. They don’t think in a way that if they would clear all students, who have crossed passing marks, would devalue worth of already existing members and profession. They believe that each student who does hard work should pass, and this passing is not related to market demand. Further, education and knowledge is the basic right of each person. Unfortunately, in Pakistan, we only say it but not actually practice it. Our general attitude is, mujhay to mill gya hay dosray ko na milay, warna mujhay kon poochay ga.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Oct 14 2008 08:21:34 AM
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2008 :  12:33:26 PM  Show Profile
Dear rambo

I just wanna do a quick clarification. You wrote, "Being the starter of this thread Toronto boy has actually thrown you out of this discussion by saying that he would not answer your replies."

Sorry, but I disagree with you. Starter of thread does not mean that I own it. It is a public forum. Anyone can contribute on it. Still, its my democratic right, as a participant, to reply or not to reply to anyone. I would simply exercise this right against atleast one person here.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 21 2008 11:21:33 PM
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2008 :  12:50:44 PM  Show Profile
Dear ad2478

Though discussion about patriotism is not the objective of this thread, but I wanna quickly say that it has many forms, like the examples you provided such as Dr. Qadeer. Similarly, remittances to Pakistan from foreign countries are another example. These are more than 5 billion US $ per annum, which is between 15% to 20% of Pakistan's GNP. Besides exports, these are the biggest source of revenue to Pakistan. Its like one member of your family goes abroad, leaves parents, brothers, sisters and other family members behind, and sends back $$$ to run his home in Pakistan. The largest part of these remitances come from Americas (includes US and Canada), sent by Pakistanis living here. No one can deny importance of foreign remittances in todays Pakistan's alarming trade deficit. Moreover, the professional knowledge and expertise these Pakistanis bring back e.g. Pakistani Doctors working in US, train Pakistani doctors in back home, so bring new skills and knowledge. All these Pakistanis here are embassidors of Pakistan. All these are forms of patriotism.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 21 2008 1:04:15 PM
Go to Top of Page

khani
Junior

110 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2008 :  7:47:50 PM  Show Profile  Send khani an AOL message
Toront boy please tell us about CPA of AUSTRAILLIA
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2008 :  10:31:59 PM  Show Profile
Dear Khani

Thanks for asking info about CPA Australia. One important point I want to explain that CPA Australia and CPA (USA) are two separate and independent accounting associations, but through MRA between two, it is easy for member of one association to get membership of other, as compared to unrecognized Pakistani associations. To get more information about CPA Australia, please use following links;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPA_Australia

http://www.cpaaustralia.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/cpa/hs.xsl/index.html

http://www.cpaaustralia.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/SID-3F57FECB-856F9BDF/cpa/hs.xsl/608_ENA_HTML.htm

http://www.cpaaustralia.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/SID-3F57FECB-49DA7247/cpa/hs.xsl/803_4374_ENA_HTML.htm

http://www.cpaaustralia.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/SID-3F57FECB-8AEC9F5F/cpa/hs.xsl/1038_4025_ENA_HTML.htm

http://www.cpaaustralia.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/SID-3F57FECB-856F9BDF/cpa/hs.xsl/608_4580_ENA_HTML.htm

http://www.cpaaustralia.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/SID-3F57FECB-856F9BDF/cpa/hs.xsl/44_ENA_HTML.htm

http://www.cpaaustralia.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/SID-3F57FECB-1686F723/cpa/hs.xsl/804_ENA_HTML.htm

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 22 2008 08:49:20 AM
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2008 :  11:10:26 PM  Show Profile
Dear ad2478

I think, once you asked for info about CMA. Presuming your probable interest in CMA (IMA of USA) and CMA (Canada), I am providing links for main sources.

For CMA (IMA) follow links;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certified_Management_Accountant

http://www.imanet.org/index.asp

http://www.imanet.org/membership_benefits.asp

http://www.imanet.org/membership_helping.asp

For CMA (Canada) follow links;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Management_Accountants_of_Canada Note: CMA Canada has MRA with CIMA (UK) and CIPFA (UK).

http://www.cma-canada.org/ This is the link for CMA's national website.

http://www.cma-ontario.org/ This is the link for CMA Ontario province website.

http://www.cma-ontario.org/index.cfm?ci_id=4808&la_id=1

I hope this serves the purpose.

Just a side note: In any case, we should not forget that it is a public forum where girls/women also visit. Use of some words would not be appropriate. I hope you won't mind it.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 22 2008 10:47:34 AM
Go to Top of Page

EnslavedSpirit
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
47 Posts

Posted - Sep 23 2008 :  11:28:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit EnslavedSpirit's Homepage  Send EnslavedSpirit an AOL message
Dear All,
Please find below useful links of Global Qualifications.

Finance & Accounts Global Qualifications links:


CMA: (Certified Management Accountant)



www.imanet.org Official website of Institute of Management Accountants (IMA-USA)

http://www.hockinternational.com/ An extremely useful and brilliant online tuition provider of CMA, Excellent!!! + Discussion forum and online help is available by Hock Teachers.

http://www.cpanet.com/cpa_forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=22&PN=2 CMA in Karachi:

http://infotechaccountants.com/pageseng/cmaeng.htm, CMA Certification: Good resource material

www.imastudents.org CMA Student Support

www.stratigicfinancemag.com Strategic Finance Magazine by IMA.

www.mamag.com Monthly Management Accountant Publication by IMA.

www.imalearningcentre.org IMA learning Centre

http://www.hocktraining.com/?mm=0&sm=0&ssm=4#q1 FAQs about CMA/CFM.

http://www.ssuet.edu.pk/cep/cma_cfm.htm Sir Syed University Program of CFA/CMA/CFM.

http://accounting.smartpros.com/x46755.xml Tips for taking CMA/CFM exam.

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070315005638&newsLang=en CMA conference.

http://www.cpanet.com/cpa_forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=22 CMA discussion forum.

http://infotechaccountants.com/cmapedia/index.php/CMAPedia_Home CMApedia very good resource material.

http://www.infotechaccountants.com/resources/cmacfm/301.pdf CMA Course Outline - PDF Format

http://www.infotechaccountants.com/resources/cmacfm/312.pdf A good comparison between CMA and CPA. PDF Format.





CPA: (Chartered Public Accountant-USA)


http://www.cpanet.com/ CPA –Everything related to it: study material, discussion forums etc.

www.cpa-exam.org CPA Official site.





CFA: (Chartered Financial Analyst)



www.cfainstitute.org, Official website of CFA (Chartered Financial Analyst)

http://www.analystforum.com/phorums/, CFA Discussion forum, and more. Excellent!!!

http://www.analyst-exam.com/ CFA Preparation and help.

http://investopedia.com/professionals/cfa/ CFA information, Good one.

http://www.analystforum.com/phorums/ Discussion forum regarding all 3 levels of CFA.

http://www.investopedia.com/professionals/ CFA and some other Professional designations.







CIA: (Certified Internal Auditor)

www.theiia.org Official website of CIA [Certified Internal Auditor]



CFE (Certified Fraud Examiner)

http://accounting.smartpros.com/x12776.xml Details, Course, Certification of CFE.

Accounts & Finance Links

http://www.financialdictionary.org/ Dictionary of Finance Terms.

http://investopedia.com/dictionary/default.asp Finance Dictionary - Subscribe and get “One term a day”.

www.accountancy.com.pk Link for Pakistani Students of Accounts/Finance. News, Resource Material, Discussion Forum etc.

www.accountingtechnician.co.uk, AAT official site. (Association of Accounting Techniques)

http://www.middlecity.com/ Online Accounting Tutorial.

http://www.bizhelp24.com/accounting/budgeting-in-small-business-10.html Accounting: Budget Variance Analysis.

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072396881/student_view0/chapter1/online_tutorial_quiz.html Online Accounting, Management Accounting, Financial Planning and analysis: MCQs, FAQs, Online Quiz and much more: A wonderful link to conceptual accounting.

http://www.va-interactive.com/inbusiness/editorial/finance/ibt/cash_flow.html#major Cash Flow Statement.

http://www.scorefoxvalley.org/cashflow.htm Sample Cash flow statement.

http://www.accountingcoach.com/ Oh! What an excellent Accounting link, really good one.

http://www.answers.com/topic/break-even-analysis Break Even Analysis.

http://www.exinfm.com/ Link to Financial Management.

http://www.creditmanagementworld.com/ A good site for credit control forms and memos.

http://www.forbes.com/home/businessinthebeltway/2007/03/05/sec-accounting-standards-biz-washington-cx_bw_0306sec.html Going Global with Accounting – Forbes.

http://accounting.smartpros.com/ Accounts & Finance Articles.

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072472960/student_view0/index.html Fundamental of Financial Accounting Book’s manual and tutorials for basic preparation of Accountancy and Financial statements analysis.



Economics:


www.digitaleconomist.com ,A link to Economics tutorials and resource material.

http://www.msu.edu/user/mercuro/opptycosts.htm Opportunity Costs, Explicit Costs, and Implicit Costs – Economic definitions & Explanation.

www.digitaleconomist.com/intro_4020.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://web.archive.org/web/20041206163355/www.digitaleconomist.com/intro_4020.html An Introduction to Macroeconomics Analysis.

www.digitaleconomist.com/equilibrium.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://web.archive.org/web/20041023025234/www.digitaleconomist.com/equilibrium.html Equilibrium Analysis.

www.digitaleconomist.com/economics.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://web.archive.org/web/20041206115958/www.digitaleconomist.com/economics.html Economics as a social science.

www.digitaleconomist.com/dar.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://web.archive.org/web/20050308025223/www.digitaleconomist.com/dar.html
The digital Economics - Resource material and concepts of economics well explained. Good one!

I hope this helps!
Regards,
Go to Top of Page

kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Sep 23 2008 :  4:31:56 PM  Show Profile

Dear Khani, ad2478 and others,


Due to certain pre-occupations I could not remain in touch. Whatever has been written in this thread in the form of questions has been explained in other threads many times and wherever is required, would again be tried to answer.

However, before this, I just place on record that no body was humiliated unless a reason was created to do so and even then limits were used. One should re-visit his words in each and every post. Like is likely to be replied with like. Here I would not go in detail to explain again that my initial mail was not purposed to hit some one personally. Rather it was an explanation for those who got confused of the one sided view and this fact was out rightly mentioned.

The question came that, is ICEAW not better than Pakistani CA? Reply is yes; off course it is better in international arena due to so many reasons. This has, however, nothing to do with whatever I wrote in earlier posts. I have, at so many places in other threads, mentioned that ICEAW is better. This is not new to be discussed.

In Pakistan, however, member of ICEAW or ICAP are JUST equal and if ICEAW member would like to be in practice he would be required to qualify certain papers of ICAP. Similarly ICAP members are required to qualify some papers (3) of ICEAW to become its members.

No group at ICAP is supposed to fail the students deliberately. It's a childish thinking. The matter is of survival of the fittest and this happens every where, I have already explained.

There is no monopoly. This thinking reflects a failure avenge and should be avoided if some one finds himself up to the mark. No body is relative of any one in council that he gets passed quickly without any reason. There is nothing like luck I also mention. One has to study and come up to the required level. Otherwise, keep on striking head, be a part of so-called esteemed 98%, and nothing will come out of it. It's again an ALAF LAILVI thinking.

The question of Khani about why ACCA is not being given the anticipated recognition in Pakistan has already been specifically replied to him on another thread. Khani, please do visit it again if you have forgotten. It's not so simple to be understood without understanding the whole process. ICAP recognized ICEAW's designation (even in practice) in full before even getting into corresponding MOU etc. We cannot complain that why at that time ICEAW was not giving such exemptions to ICAP. Now even having an MOU, ICAP is requiring ICEAW members to pass certain papers for getting into practice. This was not required in past. I would again like to mention that if ACCA is so prestigious then why it looks forward to get exemptions from ICAP. We are not the policy makers. Mutual recognitions find their roots in so many considerations which I have already explained to you.

Rambo, a guy appeared here with hilarious remarks. He has similar grouses of having lesser exemptions. What an innocent question? Anyway! For his info, I did my CA in recent years and not in 1985. Recent years mean last half decade. Further, if in 1985 it was available in free then why the people like him could not increase its number in Pakistan and remained part of esteemed and innocent 98% category. From young professionals, I could not understand what he wanted to argue. It may be indicating young 98% population. His argument of ICAP's monopoly is again reflective of his un-informed thinking and I don't comment on it.

ad2478 has asked a question:

QUOTE:

i have one more question from you KAMRAN bhai which is confusing me. how a local qualification will secure our future then compared to a foreign one? suppose if i do ACCA ....and other guy do CA...dont you think even at our local business sector ACCA will be preferd as it is a TRUTH that UK education is 1000 times better then of ours? you might say qualifications are designed for their specifi regions but even this is confusing.because we study the same thing in ACCA or CA. I mean if its auditing stuff then ofcourse auditing have the same meaning all over the world then how will a local qualification will secure our future??

UNQUOTE:

I normally don't like to reply the questions which are asked with totally unaware minds and lack of basic concept. I think you should try to find out what is meant by local charter and why studying same "auditing" does not make an ACCA equal to CA, at least in Pakistan and makes CA equal to CPA in USA and so on. This thread is, as said earlier, not focused on CA v/s ACCA debate. It has already been discussed so many times. Just open the threads and find answers.

Still, if you don't understand (I called it innocent age) then do your ACCA and come out to the local market. You will come to know the difference.

I again mention that I am not against ACCA in general, I have read its books. However, simply the good books cannot make any certification the best in itself. This fact has been discussed at length. Leaving every thing behind, in fact everything sums up in market requirement. Go out and try to find out ACCAs in the market. You will be answered. ACCA is a good gateway for further qualifications but does not isolatedly make up a good rewarding qualification.

As far as the issues of Pakistan are concerned, I have similar views about it. I never regarded Pakistan a best place to live at. But our problem is that we are born as Pakistanis. Now, when a boat is going to drown there appears two way outs. One is to leave the boat and swim out of the water. The other is to try to the last moment for saving the boat. There is always a chance to swim out if you know swimming. But the ones who save the boat are the ones who have to own the boat. If Pakistan is wrong, it's wrong due to ourselves. Every corrupt is our relative. If not mine then yours, and if not yours then mine. Either deny your existence as Pakistani as some people here appear to do, or try to do something for making it good. As far as the names of the corrupt people and generals discussed, I don't have different views about them. It's bit controversial but I don't feel very delicate about AQ Khan as well. He had been part of the nuclear trade and he cannot deny it. These people have caused Pakistan to reach at this corner although he was among the ones who gave Pakistan the nuclear strength. Things are quite controversial.

I, at the end, like to say that having more than one qualifications, specially obtaining international qualifications is not bad idea. It's more logical in view of our threatened existence as a nation. Again this is not something new which I am saying. However, whenever we talk about it we should remain un-biased and must show both sides of the picture. When someone says sitaron kay aagey jahaan aur bhi hain, he must not forget that all those JAHAANS don't end up in one country who is itself dependent upon work force of other nations being called “back in home”. Those back in home have been making most of this so-called wonderland!!!

Despite this all, Pakistan is not a good place (in particular) for ACCAs isolatedly. I mention it because most of the arguing people pertain to it or to the esteemed so-called 98% class. If some one has doubts, he should try it and get the results. No body is going to be harmed.


Regards,



KAMRAN.
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 23 2008 :  10:45:55 PM  Show Profile
Dear ad2478 and EnslavedSpirit

ad2478:
With all of my limited knowledge, I would try to answer your questions. I am not expert in this. So please don’t quote me if I am wrong somewhere. Following is link for IMA Toronto chapter. Some names appear to be Pakistanis. Contact them through their email for guidance. I hope they would help you. Also, search this forum for CMA(IMA), CPA (USA) or other designations. There are many people and enough information is available regarding your specific questions for Lahore or Pakistan. Contact them too.

http://imatoronto.imanet.org/contacts.htm

You wrote, ""Respected Administration I am a student from Pakistan. And i am doing BS in Accounting and Finance (we have to majors in our final year). And after that i am interested in CMA. Kindly guide me to few questions regarding CMA. Can I attempt CMA papers in Lahore? If yes then how and from where?
How many times papers are held in an year?"

My reply: It depends whether your institute is nationally (i.e. in Pakistan) and internationally recognized or not. For CMA(IMA) and CPA (USA) exams, a foreign candidate (like from Pakistan) needs marksheets/degrees be evaluated from approved evaluation service by IMA for CMA exams and by State Board of Accounting for CPA exams. CMA exams can be taken through Prometric in all over the world, including Lahore. Check Prometric website. Any time in year, but number of attempts are limited in one year for one paper. Use links

http://www.imanet.org/certification_started_education.asp

http://www.imanet.org/certification_started_faqs.asp

http://www.imanet.org/certification_taking.asp

http://www.imanet.org/certification_taking_schedule.asp

http://www.imanet.org/pdf/Handbook.pdf

Can you tell me of tution provider in Lahore? Or I can also do self study?

My reply: I have no idea about Lahore. Yes, you can prepare yourself. But, in my view, unless you have strong understanding and studied Financial Accounting at Advance level, Management Accounting, Auditing, Tax, Economics, Finance, Business Law, it may be difficult to prepare by self study. Use link;

http://www.imanet.org/certification_preparation.asp

How many papers are there in CMA?

My reply: 4.

http://www.imanet.org/certification_preparation_format.asp

Are there exemptions after BS in accounting and finance?

My reply: No.

http://www.imanet.org/certification_started_waivers.asp


What is the eligibility for registering for CMA papers?

My Reply: http://www.imanet.org/certification_taking_procedures.asp

http://www.imanet.org/certification_started_education.asp


What is the fee of Papers + Registration?

My Reply: Check through your computer under fee. Here, it shows me fee for Canadian candidates.

After passing CMA papers for how many years we will have to work to gain experience and to place the CMA qualified designation with us?

My Reply: http://www.imanet.org/certification_started_experience.asp

Please provide me with the link to CMA Syllabus.

My Reply: http://www.imanet.org/certification_preparation.asp

http://www.imanet.org/certification_preparation_content.asp

http://www.imanet.org/development_PLC.asp

IS CMA designed to meet the specific market conditions of your country or it has universal acceptance?

My Reply: Regarding Pakistan, check over there. Following is IMA’s claim

http://www.imanet.org/index.asp

http://www.imanet.org/about.asp


What is the equality of CMA? I mean after doing CMA can we do PhD directly (in accounting or finance)?

My reply: Difficult question. No idea. Check with universities.


From where I can purchase the books related to CMA courses in Lahore, Pakistan?

My reply: No idea about Lahore. Besides IMAs own literature, hock is one provider, and many people suggest gleim too. There are other less renowned providers.

http://www.gleim.com/accounting/cma/?GHP_SESSION_www_gleim_com=13ae9283f37c21daf48e191da5e9373d


After doing CMA in what kind of business sectors and industries I can work? I mean service industry only or even in manufacturing industry?

My reply: http://www.imanet.org/about_management.asp

I hope my replies would be helpful.

EnslavedSpirit:
Good job. Keep it up. Please include following links too in your list.

For CPA (USA):

http://www.nasba.org/nasbaweb/NASBAWeb.nsf/WPHP?OpenForm NASBA conducts uniform CPA exams on behalf of AICPA.

http://www.aicpa.org/yellow/ypsboa.htm For various Board of Accountings in USA.

http://www.facsusa.com/ Marksheets/Degrees evaluation service for CPA (USA). There are some other too. Search on Board of Accounting sites.


For CMA (IMA):

http://www.gleim.com/accounting/cma/?GHP_SESSION_www_gleim_com=13ae9283f37c21daf48e191da5e9373d Gleim is a good material provider for CPA (USA), CMA(IMA), and CIA (IIA).

http://learning.mazoo.net/archives/001259.html

http://www.prometric.com/ICMA/default.htm Prometric website for CMA(IMA) exams. Select Pakistan, Exam section etc. to get exam centre info.

Prometric exam sites in Pakistan to take CMA(IMA) exams:
Test Sites
Address
Schedule Appointment
Site Info, Driving Directions

ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN #8782
Phone: 92512272708
Site Code: 8782 US EDUCATION FOUNDATION PAKISTAN
HSE 3 & 5, ST 17 & 18, F-6/2,
ISLAMABAD 44000

Schedule Appointment
Site Info, Driving Directions

KARACHI, PAKISTAN #8781
Phone: 92215879759
Site Code: 8781 United State Education Foundation (KARACHI)
H#F-47/1 Park Lane, Block#5, K.D.A Scheme#5
KARACHI 0

Schedule Appointment
Site Info, Driving Directions
LAHORE, PAKISTAN#8783
Phone: 92 42 576 2466
Site Code: 8783 USEFP,Testing and Advising Centre
House # 19
Lahore



For ACCA:

http://acca-us.jiglu.com/ ACCA (USA) forum.

http://www.accaforums.com/

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Apr 07 2009 9:48:45 PM
Go to Top of Page

kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Sep 24 2008 :  3:46:46 PM  Show Profile

Dear ad2478,


Thank you for agreeing to my view point positively.

I deduce, you are too in-experienced to understand, at your own, what you have asked, due to your initial steps in the profession. This is not a negative remark, rather, this is a fact. You are quite young and have just entered the professional level probably.

I wished to avoid CA v/s ACCA debate here. Therefore, my reply is ONLY and ONLY purposed to answer your query and is not to hit any body else. If some one feels ACCA is the best he should continue with it. I have no objection.

ACCA could be good generally, or in UK or middle-east specifically, or may have some MRAs with other designations. I always say it is a good gate way for other designations. In this post I am only focusing on "ACCA in Pakistan" for the sake of your clarity. Accordingly, these remarks are not for everywhere.

I have some-where in other threads elaborated three categories of ACCAs with specific reference to Pakistan. You should go to my earlier posts in other such threads and read out all arguments I have placed for you guys. You will appreciate that no body will like to choose lesser authoritative, local charter deficient, and 98% population (who absconded one profession for the reasons of failure) if he is resourceful to get all these things. Every thing in ACCA is comfortable, relaxed, and requires far lesser contribution from a student. This is a fact. You or I or else cannot deny it. People here lose many years in CA and then enter the ACCA and get through it quickly. {For qualified CAs, it had off course never been an issue.} This has ruined the image of ACCA largely. Now if you or somebody else start battling on ICAP's policies for the failure of such guys, I will never agree to you and it would be wastage of time because I know passing CA is not a mystery. Yes, it requires competence and the fittest has to survive. You will agree that this is the rule everywhere in all spheres of life.

In Pakistan ACCA has not so far been well recognized and I am sorry to say that ACCA has also not made very keen efforts in this regard. Pakistan Chapter is still working as a non-profit company constituted Under Section 42 of the Companies Ordinance 1984 and the marketing efforts, specially with those who are the main entrepreneurs in Pakistan are almost nil and unconvincing. There is a difference in non-profit company and a chartered institute although so many such companies use the word chartered with them but they are never chartered by any one in real sense. I have other examples as well which I don't want to quote.

Further, ACCA profession is TOTALLY dependent upon CA profession in Pakistan. You must understand it. Majority of ACCA students are working under CAs in CA firms (and even in industry) and their chapter cannot make anything to modify this situation. I recently, in a meeting with some official of ACCA chapter, have given him certain suggestions to promote their designation in Pakistan by encouraging the establishment of ACCA professional firms. This could be a step forward but so far I don’t think anything has been done. In colleges ACCAs are learning from CAs and are always dependent upon them for so many things. When ACCAs are dependent upon some one else they will never be treated as a first choice professional either by such firms or by their clients. You can understand how such students present their selves to the industry. I should avoid going into details. Whoever is ACCA is well aware of it.

Now I come to the point of knowledge and understanding. ICAP CAs are among the world’s most equipped and competent designation-holders. The statement of inexperienced kids and the ones who are from 98% class cannot change this fact. You guys just don't understand it at this point of time. It is Pakistan, an under-developed country which does not compete the advanced world in any field, still ICEAW considered it expedient to enter into MOU with ICAP. One who quotes childish examples of O-level and A-level should try to understand it. I have already explained that such MOU has indirectly given ICAP members all those recognitions (like ICAA) which ICEAW members enjoy. This is a big acceptance of Pakistani CAs by the world’s most recognized institute. It is well discussed and I don't want to go in further details.

In contrast, ACCAs in Pakistan, the majority of which is refugee of CA profession due to whatever reasons………………………………………………………………….

-are the students of ICAP members (CAs) at large,
-idealize them (CAs) and get inspired from such ICAP members (CAs),
-learn from them,
-are dependent upon them for every thing they get or conceive,

……………………………..…………..make good joke by calling their own-selves more competent and knowledgeable. Should I go in further details? I told you that merely the books don't make a designation the superior one. Books are off course open for every one in the competition and it's an era of consulting whatever comes in the way rather than just striking the thoughts with one DRURY book for example. Should I go in further detail for explaining you the situation?

Hopefully this will make you to understand and I would not be bothered to go in further details.

I am always here to answer and discuss the professional questions. I also feel we should now avoid discussing this CA v/s ACCA because this thread has some other purposes.


Regards,



KAMRAN.




Go to Top of Page

kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Sep 25 2008 :  11:17:35 AM  Show Profile

Dear ad2478,

At the moment I will reply your first post because I am not well updated on the second one although I know FRM has good demand in banking sector, at least in UAE.

I don't just want to mention my personal comments about ACMA of Pakistan. I personally feel that CIMA is (far) better than it.

Every professional in fact puts in some efforts and as such has a worth either it is as first option or second or third for the entrepreneur. {I only object on those who get failed and make allegations and change the field}. Still, we cannot be irrational for concluding the things.

Again this conclusion has a big background which, if I explain, will definitely convince the readers. However, I must request you not to ask me such basis on the forum because it can again hurt so many people.

I normally avoid writing the posts on un-tested areas of knowledge. If some one dissent he should also come up with logical basis. Inexperienced ones and unaware persons cannot conclude the facts precisely, in my view.

It’s morally good for such persons to keep in view their awareness level before raising illogical issues.

We should also be open to accept the truth of the other side.

I must say that in this world every thing is possible.


Regards,



KAMRAN.

Edited by - kamranACA on Sep 25 2008 1:05:14 PM
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 25 2008 :  10:06:18 PM  Show Profile
Dear ad2478 and Other Students

Don’t be confused with flood of information. Sometimes more than required information negatively effects one’s decisions. At this stage of life, simply pay attention to whatever studies you are doing. After that, select a core designation and work hard to get it. After core designation, go for second/support/specialized designation of the industry you would actually be working in. Moreover, internet (in a global village) is a great source of information, but be considerate that we all have scarce resources including time and efforts etc. So, it should be used in effective, efficient, and goal oriented manner.

In my view, designations can be divided in two types i.e. (1) Group A: Core designations, which are CA, CMA, ACCA, CIMA, CPA, CGA, or CFA, and (2) Group B: Specialized/ Support designations, which may be CIA, CISA, CFE, or FRM etc., though for some people these may be core too, for example, for a person who has some base qualification (business or non-business) and, somehow, directly gets a job in internal audit department of an organization, or for a person with IT background involved in info. system audits in audit firm etc.

As my personal suggestion, drop-outs of core designations too should consider Group B designations, in order to substantiate their knowledge/experience, and as Plan B. Off-course, holders of Group A designations may get another core or Group B designation anytime.

So, I am trying to say that, at initial stage of career planning, students should consider core designations first. This is my personal view that may be different from other.

Further, I would strongly suggest students to practice and improve their skills in searching information independently with objective state of mind, critical thinking, synthesize, filter, summarize, construct and deduce logical conclusions. It would help them a lot during studies and later on, in professional life. This is one of the objectives of whatever designation you are working for. It simply means, do your homework first, before asking other.

Moreover, control over variations in human emotions is also an important area that should be dealt with during preparation for designations which need great efforts and endurance. Unexpected results cause frustration, avoidance, and eventually escape/exit. Students should consider ways to vent frustration and also emotion counseling through discussion with other students in similar situation. Therefore, if it is not allowed on this forum, or if already there is no such forum exist for students of ICAP/ ICMAP/ or other designations in Pakistan, students should consider to form groups on Yahoo Groups (that is a free service) to discuss their issues/views. It may also provide them medium to exchange study material or hints for solutions (not the actual solution). Students may also go on other forums like following to see how other students in other countries are coping with such problems.

http://www.cpanet.com/cpa_forum/default.asp

http://www.analystforum.com/phorums/

Above were some of the suggestions that I wanted to give after browsing some of the threads of this forum and by assessing student problems.

Now, I come to ad2478 questions:

Here is the link for FRM, do some research by yourself that would help to develop your skills. Please feel no offence.
http://www.garp.com/frmexam/

http://www.garp.com/frmexam/industry.aspx

Generally speaking, we all study about market, credit, and operational risks and their measurement, management, and minimization in core (i.e. Group A) designations. Perhaps, CFAs study more, as compared to other designations, about such topics in their curriculum. However, it is relatively new and much specialized designation. Usually, CFAs or those who are already in relevant jobs go for FRM. Still, it can be beneficial for other designated accountants who are in stewardship positions like CFOs or for external/ internal auditors who are involved in measurement of various risks, specially from management of operational risks point of view. In my view, it is more relevant in developed countries and in sophisticated markets. Introduction and use of specialized designations in Pakistan, in any case, is not a bad idea. But again, in my view, the people in Pakistan who are already in relevant jobs should consider it. Try to get a job by a fresh student after FRM could be difficult, even in developed countries, and specially in Pakistan. Most of the employers either don’t know about it or simply don’t require it from a fresh student, even here or in US.

Regarding your second question, financial manager is quite comprehensive term, so for the sake of limiting, I assume you mean CFO, COO, or Controller. In my view, risk manager, analyst v/s. CFO/COO/Controller are specialized and segregated functions. Take it this way, risk managers or analysts are only a part (though vital) of an organization and are not directly responsible for overall (at macro level) survival of organization. Whereas, CFO would be directly responsible for survival and growth of organization, and would be monitoring/ overseeing/ and managing other aspects of organization too for which risk managers and analysts are not responsible for. As compared to this, at lower levels of organization, in medium cadre of jobs, or in a small organization where responsibilities are not segregated sophisticatedly, risk managers/analyst/financial managers may be interchangeable, depending on circumstances.

Again, please feel no offence, but don’t be confused with such details. There are so many things which you would learn with time and efforts in education. In my view, things you are concentrating on, should not be your objective at this stage. Don’t burn your bulbs unnecessary. Save your energy and focus it on existing studies. Learn how to control mind that keeps escaping from existing study difficulties toward distant glittering things. I hope you would take it positively.


Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 26 2008 6:53:36 PM
Go to Top of Page

nakaiun
Semi Senior

Pakistan
261 Posts

Posted - Sep 26 2008 :  07:58:10 AM  Show Profile
where is acca. is it in group a or in b
Go to Top of Page

EnslavedSpirit
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
47 Posts

Posted - Sep 26 2008 :  10:22:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit EnslavedSpirit's Homepage  Send EnslavedSpirit an AOL message
Dear Toronto_Boy;

Your analytical approach and in-depth reasoning is indeed appreciatable, each of your post is depicting your control over the subject matter,

Can you please let us know about your Education, Age, Experience and all what you do?


I hope you won't mind!

Regards,
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 26 2008 :  7:56:10 PM  Show Profile
Dear nakaiun, EnslavedSpirit and ad2478

nakaiun: Sorry for forgetting about ACCA in flow of writing. In my view, ACCA is a CORE (Group A) and internationally recognized accounting designation. Please revisit my earlier post, I have included ACCA there now. It proves no-one is perfect and we all are humans.

Thanks for pointing out.

EnslavedSpirit: Public forum per personal questions nahi poochtay hain. By the way, in one of my earlier posts, I have written about my qualification and current job.

ad2478: Now, I got your point for FRM. It seems ligitimate designation. Also, I saw people studying for it here. Check its worth/demand by searching jobs on following job sites in USA and Canada.

http://www.careerbuilder.com/?skipg=y

http://www.careerbuilder.ca/CA/Default.aspx

http://jobsearch.monster.ca/?WT.srch=1

http://www.monster.com/

http://www.workopolis.com/work.aspx?action=Transfer&View=Content/Common/WorkLoginView&lang=EN

I hope it helps.


Regards


Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Oct 22 2008 9:37:27 PM
Go to Top of Page

nakaiun
Semi Senior

Pakistan
261 Posts

Posted - Sep 27 2008 :  2:13:53 PM  Show Profile
toronto boy what u think abt acca is it a good qualification or not
Go to Top of Page

Zikria Yamin
Junior

Pakistan
123 Posts

Posted - Sep 27 2008 :  10:05:29 PM  Show Profile
If I use to Answer this.

Every Qualification is Good one if you worked hard to accomplish that one. I've seen a lot of people used their time just to explain and justify which one is better and which one is poor.

I think ACCA is a Complete qualification there is no need to pursue for ICAEW or ICAP after completing this.
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 28 2008 :  7:30:44 PM  Show Profile
Dear nakaiun

Without going into details, in my view, ACCA is a good qualification.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Sep 28 2008 9:10:43 PM
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Sep 28 2008 :  10:18:38 PM  Show Profile
Dear Students

I have noticed that several institutes in Pakistan are offering preparatory classes for CPA(USA) thesedays, which is a good thing. In the following post, I would mention some points to consider by students who are preparing for CPA (USA) in Pakistan.

Valid Visa and Stay in USA: CPA (USA) exams are only conducted in USA. So, student at-least need valid USA visa to go there to appear in exams. There are 4 exams which all should be passed in 18 months. If a student does not pass all 4 exams within 18 months, he/she starts losing credit for already passed exam. Overall passing rate in one exam is around 40%. Passing rate of EACH exam (out of 4 exams) in FIRST attempt is quite low (I think between 8% to 12%, students can check exact rate from various sources). Passing rate of ALL 4 exams in FIRST attempt is further lower than one paper rate, thus, I assume passing rate of ALL 4 in FIRST ATTEMPT in SHORTER PERIOD THAN 18 MONTHS would be further low (I don’t know this rate). Reason to tell all of this is, a student should plan for stay in USA for the period in which he/she would pass. Flying frequently in between Pakistan and USA (in 18 months) could raise suspicions (and probably deportation) at airports where photographing and fingerprinting is MUST for Pakistanis entering on Pakistani passports.

Social Security Number (SSN): It is like our identity card number. Many States require this number to issue certificate/licence after passing all 4 exams. Simply passing 4 exams and not having certificate/licence does not matter much.

150 Credit Hour Education Requirement Rule: Almost all, with exception to few, States need 150 credit hour of education to sit for CPA exam. Out of these 150 hours, there are further very specific requirements of accounting related (i.e. Financial Accounting, Management Accounting, Auditing, and Tax) and business course (like economics, finance, business law etc.). These specific requirements vary from State to State. Foreign students need to get their transcripts/degrees be evaluated by State Board of Accounting’s prescribed transcripts evaluation service. Courses taken in foreign countries (like in Pakistan) should be equivalent to US accredited institutes. Students should check specific State’s Board of Accounting requirements from where they are intending to appear for exam.

Experience Requirements for Certificate/Licence and Experience Certification by CPA: Students should check whether a specific State accepts foreign experience or not. What type of experience is accepted i.e. public accounting or industry etc. Most of the States require working experience under supervision of US CPA. Moreover, requirements to sit in exams are different from Certificate/Licence requirements.

Residency Requirements: Some Sates issue Certificate/Licence only to residents of that State or to out of State applicants if they are conducting business in that specific State.

Matching of State requirements with applicant's situation is an important task that should be done in advance, in order to avoid problems/obstacles later on. Student must see specific requirements on State Board of Accounting's (BOA) website for "Exam" and "Cetificate/ Licence" requirements that may or may not be same, from where student is intending to appear for exam. Due to Computer Based Testing (CBT), it is not necessary to schedule exam exactly in same State from which student is appearing as candidate. So, candidate of one State can schedule exam in any other State. It means if a student from Pakistan is appearing as let say Nebraska's candidate or any other State's candidate, he can still schedule exams in nearest exam centre of his residence, which means if you have relatives in Chicago (in Illinois State, and staying with them) and you are appearing as Nebraska's candidate, you can schedule exam in Chicago. You would get the results as Nebraska's candidate.

I hope it helps.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Oct 22 2008 9:36:11 PM
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Oct 22 2008 :  9:40:18 PM  Show Profile
Dear ad2478

Regarding GARP, you may have interest in information provided in following two links. I don't know much about accuracy of this information.

http://www.riskglossary.com/papers/garp_letter.htm

http://www.riskglossary.com/link/garp_scandal.htm

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Oct 22 2008 9:57:57 PM
Go to Top of Page

BeL@L
Junior

United Kingdom
54 Posts

Posted - Nov 03 2008 :  3:57:54 PM  Show Profile
@toronto boy

How many universities offering ACCA tuitions and CFA tuition providers in Canada specially in ontario Toronto. Thanks for your nice input bro. Please keep in touch with all of us.

May God bless you
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Nov 19 2008 :  7:55:55 PM  Show Profile
Hi Bilal

Sorry for delayed response.

I am providing some of the links for further research. I don't know much about tuition providers for ACCA or CFA in Canada. I think, most of the ACCA students prepare by self-study and mostly those students complete ACCA here who were already in ACCA program before coming to Canada. Still a fresh student can start ACCA here, but mostly, students prefer North American designations, unless they have some other long-term objectives.

CFA is very famous and well regarded here. CFA Toronto Chapter is among largest CFA societies and exam centres. So, assuming lot of resources would be available to study for CFA. Links I am providing are only for courses available in Toronto (a non-comprehensive list). Offcourse, other universities and institutes in other cities and provinces of Canada would also be offering preparatory courses.

For ACCA:

http://canada.accaglobal.com/canada/students/students/local_info/education/providers

http://canada.accaglobal.com/canada/students/students/local_info/education/

http://canada.accaglobal.com/

http://canada.accaglobal.com/allnews/national/canada/2814932

For CFA:
http://learn.utoronto.ca/bps/cfa.htm

http://www.yorku.ca/fineng/group1/faq.html

http://www.yorku.ca/web/futurestudents/programs/template.asp?id=316

http://www.ryersonfinance.com/view_pageadd.php?id=9

http://www.stalla.com/CFAToronto/display.cfm

http://www.schweser.com/index.php?country_code=38

http://www.torontocfa.ca/Content/NavigationMenu/Candidates/TorontoSocietyCourseOfferings/default.htm

I hope it helps.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Nov 21 2008 7:04:00 PM
Go to Top of Page

BeL@L
Junior

United Kingdom
54 Posts

Posted - Nov 24 2008 :  12:55:34 PM  Show Profile
Sorry for late replying
thats realy very helpful links and thanks for info. Bro could you explain about placement issues for CFA students are studying in these top uni or business school in canada?
And which uni/school you recommend for CFA studies in toronto area? just want your opinion

Regards
Take care bro
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Nov 24 2008 :  9:46:22 PM  Show Profile

Hi Belal

First of all it should be considered whether a student is local Canadian student or international student. Canadian students face regular competition prevalent in job market. However, international students face much more problems to find jobs in Canada as usually they are not eligible for work, unless they have work visa. Due to this reason, first they face legal obstacle here, and secondly, employers do not prefer them as employers would have to apply and arrange work visa for international student.

Placement issues mainly come with completion of any certificate/ diploma/ degree etc. from Canadian institutions. But as far as completing preparatory courses for CFA from Canadian institute are concerned, objective is completion of CFA, in part or complete. So in my view, the completion of preparatory courses may not be helpful much in finding job, unless one successfully passes at-least a level of CFA. From securing job point of view, I would suggest, one should either complete a certificate/ diploma/ degree from Canadian institute, or otherwise, complete at-least a part of CFA.

All three universities I mentioned in my previous post are reputable. So, anyone can do the job. However, my personal views are little different. I am kind of self study person. I think, if a student has a degree in any of finance, economics, business, or accounting, he/she may go for self-study for CFA. He/she can get help from others if needed. However, if a student does not have a base degree, then this self-study option would be difficult. Eventually, if one needs a degree to have CFA charter, then why not first complete degree and then go for CFA. This is more secure option too, as if student does not pass CFA, even then at-least he has a degree to work. Also, if the objective is CFA, then compare the study cost of preparatory courses in Pakistan v/s. Canada. Again, personally, I would prefer to prepare in Pakistan if the cost is low. No teacher can “ghol kar pila sakta” to a student, no matter a student is in Pakistan or in Canada. It is all one’s personal efforts, and CFA is CFA, as far as curriculum is concerned, no matter one prepares for it in Pakistan or in Canada. However, work experience differ one charterholder from other, and from one part of the world to another.

Just my two cents…

Regards
Go to Top of Page

BeL@L
Junior

United Kingdom
54 Posts

Posted - Nov 28 2008 :  3:45:26 PM  Show Profile
Thanks bro, thats helpful indeed.
Go to Top of Page

Toronto_Boy
Manager

Canada
676 Posts

Posted - Dec 22 2008 :  03:41:12 AM  Show Profile
Dear ad2478

You have asked a good question. I would try to explain the strategy of US exams.

Basically, in CIMA one has to study various INDIVIDUAL subjects like management accounting, economics, business law, financial accounting etc.

On the other hand, each of US exams includes various areas of different subject in each exam. For example, CFA L1 includes Financial Accounting, Quantitative methods, and Economics, which are basically 3 different subjects. Similarly, FAR of CPA includes areas from Basic Accounting, Intermediate Accounting, Advance Accounting, Accounting for NFP, and Accounting for Government. Moreover, BEC contains areas from Economics, IT, Finance, Business, and Management Accounting.

Same is the case for CMA (USA). Please see areas covered in each of 4 CMA exams.

I hope it helps.

Regards

Edited by - Toronto_Boy on Jan 13 2009 1:21:38 PM
Go to Top of Page

sumairalam
Semi Senior

United Arab Emirates
160 Posts

Posted - Jan 31 2009 :  2:47:35 PM  Show Profile
Dear Toronto_Boy,

I really disappointed from myself why I didn't check your post before. I am CA finalist from ICAP ( one paper left of BFD)and currently in UAE , making plan to move ahead either to Canada or Australia.

After spending lots of time infect a month on research about various accounting professions that can suit me in moving to new country , I realized that ACCA is the best choice in every aspect.

I could save all this time and would register before a month enable me to sit in June 2009 examination, but nevertheless I already registered with ACCA and will take the exams in December 2009.


Anyway Thanks for your post at least I got to know that I didn't take the wrong decision.

What I also suggest to the fellow students / members if you are making plan to move to Canada / Australia and you are qualified chartered accountant register yourself for the ICAEW and try to get the certificate before landing their, and if you are student of ICAP / ICMA then also register yourself for ACCA. Ofcourse to qualify from ICAP is a passion for all of us ( students of ICAP) but to prepare yourself for a new market is also a wise decision.



Best Regards







Go to Top of Page

mroneflower
Senior

United Kingdom
310 Posts

Posted - Jan 31 2009 :  2:57:57 PM  Show Profile
Dear sumairalam

u r suggesting to ICAP members to register with ICAEW, but u r registering with ACCA, Y is that. and what if ACCA gets audit recognition in Pakistan in comming yrs. it will happen for sure mark my words.

Khalid

Edited by - mroneflower on Jan 31 2009 2:58:38 PM
Go to Top of Page

mroneflower
Senior

United Kingdom
310 Posts

Posted - Jan 31 2009 :  3:42:17 PM  Show Profile
ICAP students can register with ICAEW and when they fisish ICAP and become ICAP members MOU which ICAP signed with ICAEW will apply.

Moreover ICAP full members are exempted from ACCA 9 papers so they have to take and pass ACCA 5 papers. as sumairalam is not ICAP member therefore sumairalam will not get exemption from ACCA 9 papers and have to take ACCA more than 5 papers. Same rule will apply in ICAEW case.

I do not know why ICAP people are asking and taking non-ICAP people advise, when ICAP people claim they are the best. I also do not know why ICAP people are going for ACCA which is third class qualification according to ICAP, Double Standard. After degarding ICAP they are after ACCA now.

Anyway after becomming ACCA member sumairalam will be ACCA non Uk ACCA Qualified, its ICAP people claim.

Khalid

Edited by - mroneflower on Jan 31 2009 3:49:04 PM
Go to Top of Page

kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jan 31 2009 :  4:09:40 PM  Show Profile

Khalid,

Who said ACCA is a third class qualification? Can you refer these "exact words" anywhere in any thread of these forums? I will wait for. I doubt you are the first who said these words. others only have so far compared the advantages and disadvantages and that was also specific to various locations. This is by no means a disgrace. Is there some frustration in your thoughts?

There is no harm for any one to have more than one qualification either by qualifying it all the way or getting through mutual recognition modalities. This makes someone more acceptable worldover and more vibrant in different statutory desciplines.

The people of developing countries are said to be believeing in having more and more tags with their names. But it's also a truth that when they compete the advanced nations they have to make extra inputs and make more efforts and get more knowledge and successes. It cannot be termed as a disadavantage. If you feel it a taboo, who can help you. However, I always agreed that there should be qualitative reasons for having aditional qualifications. If the one is doing it because the first qualification is not paying him back the desired returns then he should think over the decision he took and exercised.

I know why you don't agree to this idea. Any body on this forum can analyse your frustration. Please come to Pakistan and try to get job, you will Inshallah find it without doing CA from ICAP. Please don't take it as offence.

Regards,


KAMRAN.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 8 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Advertisements


Follow Accountancy on TwitterFollow Accountancy on Facebook





Next Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Advertisement(s)
Accountancy Forum © 2002 - 2010 Accountancy Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 1.39 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000