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UzairCh
Junior

Pakistan
63 Posts

Posted - Jul 19 2009 :  5:52:30 PM  Show Profile
Several of Firms and employers in Pakistan became approve training offices (ATOs) for ICAEW training and it was repeated asserted that this is only for ICAP members and training will not be offered to others.
I wonder what will happen now as ICAP qualified CAs are out of the race for ICAEW Training contract because they are waived off 2 years additional training. They only need to pass 4 exams now.
Although it was false to say that ICAEW in Pakistan is only for ICAP members as I am CIMA qualified and currently on an ICAEW Training contract at Ernst and Young in Pakistan. Now I feel it will make it more easy for ACCAs and CIMAs to get ICAEW training in these firms and in long term this can create problems for ICAP because CA England and Wales will increase rapidly. It will also ruin ICAEW's worth.

Edited by - UzairCh on Jul 19 2009 7:01:14 PM

Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 19 2009 :  6:34:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
ICAEW contract in pakistan? thats a great news!!! May i know since how long are you on ICAEW training contract?
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UzairCh
Junior

Pakistan
63 Posts

Posted - Jul 19 2009 :  6:59:50 PM  Show Profile
Since March 2009. I registered with ICAEW in December 2007 and claimed my free exemptions in June 2008.
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 19 2009 :  10:22:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
do u know any ACCA Affiliate who also has an ICAEW training contract?
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 20 2009 :  09:32:40 AM  Show Profile
Dears,

It is good to see how effective is the banning from Admin.

ICAEW's approval to larger number of firms was merely for the sake of training ACA students who wish to do it from ICAEW after CA from ICAP. It was not for generalized ICAEW contracts. EY might have been approved for this purpose like technobeavers. I cannot comment unless I discuss with PM or some one else at EY. I will comment on the arrangement after some clarity.

However, the ones who never accepted the difference of UK qualified ACCA and Pak qualified ACCA, for whatever reasons, are now acceding to what was told to them.

It's no wonder if they have kept their ill will alive for ICAP. They have their 2 years to prove the things. We will wait for them.

I know it's impossible for some buddies to understand how things act and react. Today ICAEW has waived training to ICAP then there may come a day when all papers except case study will be exempeted to them then may come a day when India will allow ICAEW's training. But nothing will make them understand. This is a changing world. End of days has not come!!! It's hard to understand.

Some one was banned for using ACCA designation at the time when he was not even affiliate. I remind he became affiliate in DEC 2008 while he used this designation in 2006 at this forum with his name. This is discreditable to profession and was a major reason of getting banned.

I invite attention of Admin to fix this problem if they have some time spare for the well being of the forum.

Regards,


Kamran.
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ausmanpk2001
Manager

Pakistan
728 Posts

Posted - Jul 20 2009 :  11:02:12 AM  Show Profile
Do all ATO's sign ICAEW contracts to non ICAP students? I'm an ACCA student. Plz give information

Regards
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hanifasif
Senior

Saudi Arabia
337 Posts

Posted - Jul 20 2009 :  12:25:02 PM  Show Profile  Send hanifasif a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Originally posted by UzairCh


Now I feel it will make it more easy for ACCAs and CIMAs to get ICAEW training in these firms and in long term this can create problems for ICAP because CA England and Wales will increase rapidly. It will also ruin ICAEW's worth.





Yes, I agree, it will ruin ICAEW's worth. With hundreds of ACA (ICAEW) to-be churned out in Pakistan every year will surely infest the job market with qualified accountants (ACCAs, ACAs(ICAP) and now of ICAEW's).

Well, lets see...
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UzairCh
Junior

Pakistan
63 Posts

Posted - Jul 21 2009 :  4:55:05 PM  Show Profile
The very first day when ICAEW was launched in Pakistan, I telephoned ICAEW contact person in UK and they said their ATOs are ATOs for all. They donot differentiate on the basis that this ATO is only for ICAP this is only for ACCA and this is only for inducting graduates. Whether to recruit anyone or not, is the decision the firm has to make itself. ICAEW or ICAP or Emile Woolf cannot dictate them to recruit people from one qualification and dont accept others. Just for example EY UK has a policy that they will only train for ICAS (institute of Chartered Accountants in Scotland) and not train for ICAEW. ICAS has not forced EY UK to make this decision but its EYs internal policy.

I can confirm that I personally know 5 ACCA affiliates who are on ICAEW Training contract in 3 different firms in Lahore. (one firm not big 4 but in big 10).
So the decision is based on how strong a reference you have with the partner, believe me there is no such policy like NOT Allowed for ACCAs.!!! and by the way ICAP CAs dont need articls NOW SO ITS ONLY LEFT WITH ACCAs to go for ICAEW articles in these approved firms.

From 1st July ICAEW waived 2 years addition articles to ICAP members. All those ICAP Chartered accountants who were on their ICAEW articles have had their articles cancelled.!!!

I believe those who qualify ACA (ICAEW) in Pakistan in initial years from any big 4 can benefit as they would be first ones with ACA Englang & Wales and also additional qualifications like ACCA or CIMA. But in later years when ICAEW ACAs increase, worth of ICAEW will start to fall. Get ACA ICAEW in 3 years time and go abroad to set yourself otherwise if you get late there will be many more like you around. Its a very good chance to flourish right now if you are an ACCA affiliate :-)

Even though I am CIMA qualified and on ICAEW training contract in Pakistan, I think ICAEW should never have been launched in Pakistan. They are here only to make money in longterm but would end up in destroying their worth.

Edited by - UzairCh on Jul 21 2009 10:01:31 PM
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 21 2009 :  5:48:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
thanks for the info
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UzairCh
Junior

Pakistan
63 Posts

Posted - Jul 21 2009 :  6:48:14 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Haider Abbas PWC Partner, Islamabad, has confirmed me that at present they are not accepting ACCA or CIMA for ICAEW Training contract.



Dear mroneflower1

Thats what my point is!! Let me narrate my experience. I registered with ICAEW in December 2007 as I told in the first post. After that I contacted firms in Islamabad and Lahore for ICAEW articles and they were all saying like :-

"wait we dont know if we can offer you contract or not let us phone our fellows in karachi and confirm what should we do kindly contact us next week"

Then they phoned to their karachi offices and karachi fellows were all saying

"WE DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO LET US CONTACT ICAP KARACHI OFFICE FOR MORE INFORMATION"

And then the directives were coming from ICAP KARACHI OFFICE and they were

"no ICAEW articles for ACCA and CIMA only for ICAP members"

So it was inquiries going from down to top and directions coming from up the hierarchy.

And when I contacted ICAEW they used to say no there is no such rule its open for all and I was very furious about all what was happening.

The funnier thing is that now ICAP ACAs dont require ICAEW articles so now ask Mr Haider Abbas if not for ICAP, not for ACCA and not for CIMA then who for????
I initially thought partners of firms would love have 2 years additional ICAEW articles for ICAP members coz this way they can retain newly qualified talent into firms as managers for sometime. People just qualify CA and leave the firm (though now even newly qualified CAs not leaving firms because of recession). So all ATOs are in confusion now what should they do they have 2 options

1) Allow ACCA and CIMAs in their firms
2) Else cancel their approved firm status which they will feel we should not do when some firms are still continuing it out there.
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rabia-k
Manager

United Arab Emirates
805 Posts

Posted - Jul 21 2009 :  8:44:47 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by mroneflower1

quote:
Originally posted by UzairCh

Even though I am CIMA qualified and on ICAEW training contract in Pakistan, I think ICAEW should never have been launched in Pakistan. They are here only to make money in longterm but would end up in destroying their worth.


I will just say there is nothing which can stop ICAEW for lanuching its full qualiication in Pakistan. India is differenct as Indian parliment passed law whereby no oerseas professional body can authorise ATO in India including ACCA and ICAEW.


1) ICAEW UK qualified (Top one)
2) ICAEW Pakistan Qualified (second category)
3) ICAEW Qualified through gateway Qualification (i.e ICAP)


Mroneflower



category one - ICAEW UK qualified
category two - ICAEW Pakistan Qualified
third category - (wannabe ACA's) qualified through gateway qualifications CIMA qualified /ACCA qualified cum ICAEW qualified
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2009 :  12:51:57 AM  Show Profile
Dear,

Interesting posts and informative material from Uzair.

The confusion was started by ICAEW in fact. It never declared any other streamline for training contracts in Pak except for ICAP members. Had it been the case the people debating here must have pointed out far before since this issue was vigorously discussed. The webpages of ICAEW which now talk about the training opportunities in Pakistan for all students (excluding ICAP members) didn't even on-air this info on their website ever before. I don't say Uzair is not right but am telling you my experience of visiting ICAEW's website which I had been doing frequently, specially in the days when we got authorization of our firm.I am currently posting from my blackberry. I will confirm from my record and let you know if there had been any clarification from ICAEW regarding which categories of students we could intake. I doubt such clarification was sought and given but at the moment I am not confirmed what was the exact outcome.

It's really a question about the status of authorization of our firms if ICAP members are no more required to undergo such training.

As far as differentiating the qualifications with reference to origin, route or exemption mode etc is concerned the fingers raised on Pakistan are simply hilarious and show the affected sentiments about homeland. When 2 years training was a condition then these people used to say that end of times has come, no improvement is possible at all and Pakistan has become worst place for professionals.ICAP was criticised for changing its policies over the time without giving an ear to the clarification that this is a changing world.However, now when training condition has been removed this mentality didn't comment on ICAEW who is non-pak body and has changed their decision in a short while (as it is a changing world), but found new way to portray their mindset against Pakistan and ICAP. I suggest them to take an ACCA from Pak to UK and let him win the quest of finding a job or even training contract in competition with British and with UK qualified ACCAs. Reasons are enormous.I don't discuss rare cases!

Further, if some one will visit ICAEW's website, he/she will see that certain designations are given exemptions for ICAEW's qualification. However, there is a condition that such exemption is not available to such other designation-holders who carry it without qualifying its exams as a result of mutual recognitions with other bodies in the world that are not accepted by ICAEW for exemption or equivalence.

So dears, such treatments are also prevelant all over the globe and are not out of the world at all. Is there a need to quote further examples?

I think no body should abstain others from doing CA after ACCA or CIMA be it from ICAEW or ICAP or whatever. Every qualified person has the wisdom to take such decisions. If some body does not find his-self upto it, it's his personal issue. Every one knows why Pakistan, ICAP, (even ICAEW) and circumstances are criticised by people sitting out. I wonder why ICAI (of Ireland) is not being criticised. The qualification of some guys does not make them to fly back even they are supposed to have qualified from masters' land. They wonder why master slave rule does not apply in their case. The experiences prove that there is confusion and frustration which has been time and again expressed on the forum. Example can be quoted using their own words posted here.

In fact this is not a master slave issue. There could be so many reasons which require lots of time to discuss which I know will be wasted if invested.

By the way if some ACCA (may be affiliate or member presently) will make telephonic calls to the partners of CA firms located in Pakistan, (more specifically Islamabad that is probably the localized residential place of such ACCA), to inquire about the availbility of training arrangements for ICAEW's CA on the basis of ACCA designation, what would it mean for? This is a simple question!!! No offense should be taken.


Regards,



KAMRAN.

Edited by - kamranACA on Jul 22 2009 11:13:17 AM
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rabia-k
Manager

United Arab Emirates
805 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2009 :  1:19:29 PM  Show Profile
one fellow on this forum keep advising others not go for ICAEW after ACCA, while himself claims to be in a contract with the ICAI (ireland).!!

might be possible that ICAEW's will loose their worth like ACCA has with
tons of pakistani ACCA's flowing into the gulf, desperately seeking jobs, after failing to attain a decent one in pakistan.
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2009 :  2:29:24 PM  Show Profile

Rabia,

Recent history has shown some instances of using two IDs by same person for favoring the messages posted by him using such IDs alternatively so that people find the false image that two persons on this forum have similar opinions.

We all know that for one ID he had been claiming ACCA designation while for other he used to claim the CA designation of ICAS. At the same time he had been lecturing CA students on morality, professionalism and threatening them to report their so-called cases to ICAP. What a great example of professionalism!

Largely it was proved that a person who qualified as ACCA affiliate in December 2008 claimed to be ACCA member in 2006. Using such designation without having it lawfully is discreditable to the profession.

We know the person referred by you tried his fate at ICAI and left un-successful declaring that he now does not need it being an ACCA. He is still making calls to CA firms in Pakistan inquiring possibilities for ICAEW's contract. This is not what I have mentioned. I am just pointing out.

The man under refernce has so many times advised others to be relevant and not to waste time and energies. We all know he did his M.A. at Pakistan before trying ACCA and strived for CA as well. At least ICAI issue has been admitted by him. We may assume he did his MA just for the sake of thrist of knowledge. May I remind he did his ACCA in 31 plus in December 2008. How relevant and time efficient this example is.

We can discuss more, if it would be needed.

I wonder how Admin has allowed such person to post using third ID. Were 2 IDs not fullfiling his needs. Who knows if he has a fourth one as well!!!

I might have not been posting (at least regularly) here but this man has pulled me back. Interesting!!! At least people will see my presence on his threads unless he uses entirely a different identity through 4th or 5th ID.

Regards,



KAMRAN.
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Astute Accountant
Manager

Pakistan
660 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2009 :  8:17:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Astute Accountant's Homepage
Welcome Dear Brother


Good to see you back! Your fans were feeling sad about your departure. But I told them that Bhai must be busy and he'll be back soon Inshallah.


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tariqsohail
Semi Senior

United Arab Emirates
210 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  01:16:16 AM  Show Profile
I got really useful information from this forum on different professional qualifications and I am feeling there will be thousands like me who are getting this kind of useful information from this forum. So for the sake of usefulness of this forum we need to be very relevant to the topic and needs to avoid personal liking or disliking.
I don't want to discredit any body and I am hoping my comment will be considered as a suggestion.
Regards,
Sohail

Edited by - tariqsohail on Jul 23 2009 01:17:28 AM
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hanifasif
Senior

Saudi Arabia
337 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  11:02:30 AM  Show Profile  Send hanifasif a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Originally posted by kamranACA


Rabia,

Recent history has shown some instances of using two IDs by same person for favoring the messages posted by him using such IDs alternatively so that people find the false image that two persons on this forum have similar opinions.

We all know that for one ID he had been claiming ACCA designation while for other he used to claim the CA designation of ICAS. At the same time he had been lecturing CA students on morality, professionalism and threatening them to report their so-called cases to ICAP. What a great example of professionalism!

Largely it was proved that a person who qualified as ACCA affiliate in December 2008 claimed to be ACCA member in 2006. Using such designation without having it lawfully is discreditable to the profession.

We know the person referred by you tried his fate at ICAI and left un-successful declaring that he now does not need it being an ACCA. He is still making calls to CA firms in Pakistan inquiring possibilities for ICAEW's contract. This is not what I have mentioned. I am just pointing out.

The man under refernce has so many times advised others to be relevant and not to waste time and energies. We all know he did his M.A. at Pakistan before trying ACCA and strived for CA as well. At least ICAI issue has been admitted by him. We may assume he did his MA just for the sake of thrist of knowledge. May I remind he did his ACCA in 31 plus in December 2008. How relevant and time efficient this example is.

We can discuss more, if it would be needed.

I wonder how Admin has allowed such person to post using third ID. Were 2 IDs not fullfiling his needs. Who knows if he has a fourth one as well!!!

I might have not been posting (at least regularly) here but this man has pulled me back. Interesting!!! At least people will see my presence on his threads unless he uses entirely a different identity through 4th or 5th ID.

Regards,



KAMRAN.




We have had enough of this. Please do not start another battle with Khalid. Enough is enough
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  12:50:26 PM  Show Profile

Dear Hanif,

It's not a personalized battle; its just stating the facts and save a lot of people from the false-hood, fraudulent intent and untruthful identity of a person who feels his-self a deemed advisor to the forum.

It's enough to know for you and for all other members why this man was banned from the forum. He was using two IDs that were checked and detected by ADMIN, only and only on pointing out by me. When I accused him of using two IDs, even at that time some of the fellows felt I was accusing him wrongly. Remember, his dual ID where he claimed two qualifications were captured by ADMIN finally. Admin has also posted this fact on one of the thread. You can search it here. He never posted any clarification to the action taken by ADMIN. He submitted a written apology to ADMIN that he will never do such fraudulent acts again. But now he re-appeared with a third ID and is repeating same bluff. Who knows if he has 4th or 5th as well? Is it out of expectations?

For your info let me tell you his IDs at this forum were "mroneflower" and "MasudCA". For one ID (mroneflower) he used to claim ACCA membership since 2006 while he qualified as affiliate in December 2008. (I have posted the link of his ACCA result of December 2008 on another thread). Mind it, he was not even an affiliate ACCA in 2006. For the other ID (MasudCA) he claimed to be a member of ICAS (Scotland) and made big points to favor his own second ID, falsely depicting his-self as another person. How a person who was not even a student of ICAS claimed him to be qualified member of ICAS at this professional forum. Is not it, what he is upto?

I agree this is a professional forum although we have some members like him who are totally non-professional. I wonder if the professionals of this forum don't mind any deceiver, liar, fraudulent and mis-representer of the facts.

I wonder if the acts done by the man under discussion don't fall under the definition of these words.

I wonder if the forum members don't mind a man who expresses his proud for working with white girls (kia banda hai yaar) and then alleges the other countrymen for carrying slaves' mindset.

Forum members should know that he had been abusing one of the female members of this forum by e-mailing her continuously that was reported to the ADMIN of this forum.

I know so many will be advocating him, ignoring what he has been doing, but to me it makes no difference.

I must ask the members to keep in their memories why this man was banned and at least condemn his continued ill-mannered efforts to affect the grace of the profession and Pakistan. He has been even indirectly disgracing his own ACCA with his posts and acts on other threads lately.

I wonder where the ADMIN has gone, where their so-called SOPs have frozen, and how a man administratively banned for criminal acts is openly appearing on the forum and creating same mess for which he was expelled.

Hanif,

Do you advise the people to keep the eyes closed, keep the ears shut, and hold their tongues irrespective of witnessing whatever wrong, worse and worst? If you do, I have to make no point to you.

The man who is facing bad time for a decade is declaring bad times for others!!!

Please make a note that it's not a personalized battle.

Regards,


KAMRAN.
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rabia-k
Manager

United Arab Emirates
805 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  12:59:31 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by retarded

Aray Dada sab bakwas hai ,icap ki value wesay he khatam ho rahe hai......
aj kal icap ka ca sarkain naap raha hai ... icaew ka ca ghanta kuch karay ga????

aur rabia tum khali peeli may logon ko kyun tangh karte ho ,
i have never ever seen any contribution from ur side , which could really help people..
jao pehlay acca ka level 1 complete karoo phir yahan akar tum bhe sarkain naapna , phir tumhay koi nahi rokay ga



go through my posts ...you will find some very very valuable ones..some one found a job on this forum due to one of my posts.
we can post whatever we like, keeping in mind the forum rules.
so keep this in ure retarded mind and dont dictate me what to post.

if the ACCAs and the ICAEWs take over the pakisatani market as is being said by one fellow on this forum , to patanahi tum bechare acmas ka to kya hi hashar hoga

Edited by - rabia-k on Jul 23 2009 1:14:16 PM
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rabia-k
Manager

United Arab Emirates
805 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  1:42:21 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by mroneflower1

retarded

I agree with you so these two should be fully ignored.

To ALL

According to my information, ICAEW membership gained through gateway route (i.e ICAP) will not be recognised anywhere in the world and all those who will gain ICAEW membership through gateway route (i.e ICAP) will not be able to become members of ICAA(Aus), CICA(Canaad), ICAS(scotland) etc and all those institutes with whom ICAEW has MRA.

The reason is, all those institutes with whom ICAEW has MRA require ICAEW membership gained through by

1) complying ICAEW training requirements and
2)passing ICAEW examinations.

As far as ICAEW examinations are concerned, ICAP members will be ICAEW members by passing ICAEW exams, so one condition is met.

ICAP members becoming ICAEW members under MOU are not satisfying second condition as ICAP members would not become ICAEW members by complying ICAEW training requirements. Please note ICAP members do not need to undergo any ICAEW training. In short ICAEW membership gained through gateway route( i.e ICAP) is useless and not recognised anywhere in the world. In other words, even if ICAP members change picture on passport, still it will be useless.

This is the reason, I say ICAP should try to enhace its own reputation instead of using someone else shoulder. This is the reason I say ACCA members do not need any other accountancy qualifiation as ACCA is itself bigger than ICAEW.

Conclusion:

ICAP is gateway to ICAEW membership and ICAEW membership gained through this gateway route is useless. I regret to say even after MOU with ICAEW, ACAs of ICAP are still not part of international ACA ommunity. POOR ICAP, Still a losser

In future there will be three types of ICAEW members as follow

1) ICAEW UK qualified (Top one)
2) ICAEW Pakistan Qualified (second category)
3) ICAEW Qualified through gateway Qualification (i.e ICAP), Not recognised anywhere.

One more interesting thing is that ICAP members will become ICAEW members without being to England or wales. Remember it is not true with ACCA because,

ICAEW stands for Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and wales. Means ICAEW is regional qualification as England and wales are part of ICAEW name.

Whereas ACCA stands for Association of Chartered Certified Accoutants, means Global qualification and not bound by any country or region.

Moreover, There are many CA institutes in the world like Institute of Chartered Accountant in England & Wales, Scotland, Austrailia, Moon, Sun etc or what ever. On other hands, ACCA is one and only.




this also applies to ACCA members(not affiliates) who have gained the ICAEW qualification through the back door. they cant become members of ICAA (australian CA). unfortunately even CIMA has a very good MOU with ICAA while our so called "GLOBAL BASHING" qualification doesnt.

Edited by - rabia-k on Jul 23 2009 1:44:53 PM
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rabia-k
Manager

United Arab Emirates
805 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  2:30:29 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by mroneflower1

Dear retarded

Just ignore her, she does not have any knowledge nor try to gain knowledge.She just make post without any proper knowledge and information. She will learn by passage of time. Just ignore her.



i learned one very weird very strange thing from this forum atleast. i mean i never knew a person with a professional qualification could face a tough time in even stating his qualification if he is asked to!

"ACCA OR CA?" i didnt know this question was like solving a question on rocket science to some.

retarded,
thanks, atleast i came to know the worth of ACCAs in pakistan from you, 7000 Rs a month even a labourer earns more than this in pakisatn. although i was aware of this before but didnt know it was this bad!! no wonder those several ACCAs from pakistan flodding the gulf market every year.
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rabia-k
Manager

United Arab Emirates
805 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  3:39:30 PM  Show Profile

so u r rejected to have even a Chaprasee role thereat.

wesay aik aapas ki bat hai , mere liye bhe koi job dekh do wahan plz....
[/quote]

abhi job ki itni zaroorat hai to jo chaprasee ki job tumhari nazar mein hai khali to usko pakarrlo ....mere samne kyoun haath phalarahae ho

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UzairCh
Junior

Pakistan
63 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  4:23:01 PM  Show Profile
Dear Kamran

Please visit the following link

http://www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/157505/icaew_ga/en/Qualifications/Train_for_the_ACA/ACA_international/ACA_training_in_Pakistan

In the third paragraph it says :

In June 2009 the ICAEW and ICAP agreed additional, positive changes. In recognition of ICAP’s high standards for assuring the work experience of its own students, from 30 June 2009 ICAEW no longer requires ICAP members to complete a two year training agreement and the Initial Professional Development requirement. This also applies to ICAP members currently on the ACA programme.


ICAEW has a very simple process of registering firms/companies as approved training offices. ANYBODY can get up download a form from ICAEW website. Then contact any ACA,ACMA,CPA or ACCA working as his boss in the company to fill in that one page form, scan it and email it to the ICAEW in UK. Within 7 days the company will become Approved Training Office for ICAEW. ICAEW accepts training in Industry as well. This will open pandora box in Pakistan. Every body will get his father's or uncle's or father's friend's , some relative's or other known person's company or Audit Firm or government organisation registered as ICAEW approved Training Office and begin ICAEW in Pakistan.

More interestingly i tell you initially it was decided with ICAP that only Advance Stage exams will be held in Pakistan and entire Professional Level will be exempt to ICAP members. Later ICAEW withdrew exemption for Business Strategy paper of the Professional stage. This gave them an opportunity to bring atleast one professional level paper in Pakistan and hold its exams in British Council. Then they said if Business Strategy paper can fly in and out of Pakistan why cant other Professional level papers. So now in my ICAEW account at ICAEW website they show that 6/12 written based Professional level exams are available to attempt in Pakistan. The other 6 knowledge module exams are computer based and there is no arrangement at British Council to attempt them as yet.

ICAEW even has solution to this, all over the world they have licensed Pearson IT solution company's which is an independent IT company. Pearsons establish computer based examination centers all over the world. The process is simple, any University or college can contact Pearson and fulfill their requirement ie (quality, space, security etc) and they will affiliate that university or college as a Pearson computer based examination center in Pakistan. Once affiliated with Peason ICAEW computer based exams can also be held at that CBE.

So you all can see how it started. TOP up program for ICAP, articles only for ICAP. Others can apply as well. One professional level application paper brought into Pak for ICAP and then 5 others also sneaked into Pak. 6 remaining computer based coming into Pak soon and already i have heard some Pegasus type named institute in Islamabad has registered itself as 1st computer based examination center in Pakistan.



Edited by - UzairCh on Jul 23 2009 4:44:39 PM
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rabia-k
Manager

United Arab Emirates
805 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  5:44:57 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by retarded

quote:
Originally posted by rabia-k


so u r rejected to have even a Chaprasee role thereat.

wesay aik aapas ki bat hai , mere liye bhe koi job dekh do wahan plz....



abhi job ki itni zaroorat hai to jo chaprasee ki job tumhari nazar mein hai khali to usko pakarrlo ....mere samne kyoun haath phalarahae ho





DADI
May nay to kab ki start kar de hai yeh job , i asked you too bcoz u deserve it more than me even...........
tumharay samnay hath phela nahi raha tha , hath barha raha tha offer letter k sath ta k ICAP ko aik "Chamcha cum chaprasee" mil sakay
hahahahahaaaaaaaaaa

wesay may nay audit & accounts may tumharay liye aik post marii hai , us ka reply karoo agar thoori se bhe knowledge hai tumhay to,


[/quote]

nannae munnae doodh pitae bachae,
dadi ki meri fikar mat karo, tum ko job ki zaroorat hai mujhe nahi. abhi jhoot mat bolna ke tumhae job ki zaroorat nahi hai. acconts ko choro asa karo kisi Edhi retarded home mein drivery karlo agar license hai tou
dont worry about me i will keep all options open after ACCA, ICAP/ICAEW.

Edited by - rabia-k on Jul 23 2009 6:01:41 PM
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fahadtariq786
Unregistered Trainee

19 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  7:27:45 PM  Show Profile
Sir Khalid sahab .please let us know about this news as well so that who want to benefit from ICAEW programme in Pakistan can be benefited.
Thanks bhai in advance.
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tariqsohail
Semi Senior

United Arab Emirates
210 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2009 :  8:46:58 PM  Show Profile
I think each professional qualification have its own worth. Basically its depends on employer's personal choice..like some people like American, some like British etc. etc. Further it depends on main country of the company. Like an American company will always prefer CPA, CMA and a brith company will always prefer ACA, ACCA.
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2009 :  04:30:57 AM  Show Profile
Dear Uzair,

This is globalized world and it keeps on changing in perpetuity. The people who are afraid of theirselves create obstacles for others. However, I believe this cannot go a long way, regardless how such restrictions are imposed.

The process of getting authorization from ICAEW looks easier the way you described it as well as simply looking at the first email response received from ICAEW, but it is not in fact. You know they refused authorizing some firms in Pakistan merely for the reason that some of their partners were lacking CPD hours credit of ICAP. They check each and everything the way it deserve. I remember when we got authorization their two representatives visited our offices in person and had detailed discussions on our firm's training procedures. You are either posting on the basis of theoratical knowledge or you deliberately want to picturize it so simple.ICAEW has a complete procedure which the authorized firms have to follow, be it training procedure, reporting of training aspects to ICAEW, salaries/stipend, benefits, rotations or whatever! If you are at EY, discuss it with some concerned partner.

Others,

Rabia does not make an invalid point. One should post a clarification either he is ACCA or CA from scotland! There is no harm in it since he has been bluffing a lot previously.

In one of foregoing posts (his second last so far) he again bluffed why he was banned from the forum. He is simply once again playing with forum rules. He was expelled and thrown out for the reasons which I have been repeatedly mentioning on this thread. He surprisingly offers no explanation to his fradulent acts. He should feel shame on calling his-self professional or advising others on professional issues unless he provide some explanation to the alleged issues. I have no personal battle I must remind. But unless he posts explanation to all of lies and misrepresentation made by him personally for decieving the members at large, all the members have a right to keep on reminding him at every thread wherever it would be warranted.

One of my students became ACCA affiliate in 20 years (roughly) age. This man did so in 31 after trying and failing at lots of other fronts. We understand what's his frustration level but it should not be transformed into the acts of decieving the others.

We have no concern with how much failures he faced and how much time he took to do what he claims. This is his personal matter. But when some one tries to become volunteered advisor of various institutes and countries and provide 2 plus 2 roadmap for survival and successes (the thing bigger than his brain) then we have a right to call into question the level of his own intelligence, achievevments, failures etc. We have a right to question on the time wasted by such international consultant in getting merely the ACCA affiliate designation which people secure in the age of 19. We have a right to question why he makes call to firms at Islamabad and keeps on making inquiries for training placements available for him if he advises others not to do so. Is there any logic of making such call if he was not interested? It could be engineered I know. Let me assure you, if he will engineer such logic I will make sure what he discussed with Haider Abbas. He might have never called Haider Abbas and have mentioned it here falsely since he is habitual of saying lies. Let's see what he come up with.

I remind ADMIN that he was banned and his re-entry must have been with ADMIN's consent which does not appear the case. Had it been so he should have no reason of placing 1 with his ID. I draw attention that he is decieving the members regarding reasons of his expulsion from the forum specially those who have not visited such threads.

Similarly I remind members that ADMIN in one of his posts stated that this man accepted his fradulent acts and tendred apology and promise of not doing so in future that was not accepted by ADMIN in the best interest of the forum and members. By doing such criminal activities he not only affected the ADMIN but also the forum members who due to his misrepresentations considered him level headed professional. I draw attention that he should accept his crime openly on the forum with a promise to all members that he will not act fradulently with members in future. If he does not do so I recommend and request the ADMIN to apply their so-called SOPs and don't take any personalized decision. I know application of SOPs takes larger amount of time. Reasons may be known to ADMIN or the developers of such SOPs. A worthy member GOODMAN lately pointed out that delayed decisions are not the effective decisions. However, I know we have to wait for the action.

Regards,


KAMRAN.
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UzairCh
Junior

Pakistan
63 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2009 :  9:07:28 PM  Show Profile
Dear Kamran

Yes I know all the CPD hour requirements and other requirements. I am also aware of lenghty forms that I will have to fill in and sign off during my training.

Riaz Ahmed & Co had its application for ATO rejected initially because of non completion of CPD hours. When I talk about the simplicity and ease in the processes ICAEW has, i talk it in comparison to other ACA bodies like ICAA, ICAS, CICA, ICAP and ICAI etc. This is because all other ACA bodies donot accept training in the Industry, donot offer free exemptions and donot allow to attempt Advanced stage exams before Initial Stage exams. This new revelation is very shocking for me. In the exam eligibility regulations of ICAEW, they say any student can give Advanced level exams at anytime, students needs NOT TO HAVE passed any or all of Professional level exams or need not to have been registered into a training contract. Only the case study has to be attempted as a last exam and that to while entered in a training contract and be in the last year of it.
Such rules are annoying but create alot of flexibilities and ease for students as compared to other institutes in the world.

Edited by - UzairCh on Jul 24 2009 10:23:51 PM
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UzairCh
Junior

Pakistan
63 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2009 :  9:20:17 PM  Show Profile
Dear Others!

I feel people including myself here are considering the arrival of other Professional and Educational bodies into Pakistan as a bad sign for Pakistani economy and sighting examples of India blocking other Professional bodies from entering their boundries.
There is another dimension to all this. Rise of competent,internationally accredited qualification holders in Pakisatn can be, in a way beneficial to Pakistan. Pakistan can become a major contributor of high qualified, well equiped and trained work force all over the world. Economies of countries like Canada, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and far eastern nations are to grow in the long run and this recession is not going to stay this way for long. Once the recession is over there will be rapid boast and surge in search for qualified professionals.
Pakistanis can benefit with Internationalisation of Education system in Pakistan and its recognition world wide. Till now we have been doing jobs like, cooks, dishwashers, shop or petrol pump attenders or sweapers all over the world and such labour, at times gave bad image to Pakistan. With Indians returning back to their homeland because of their growing economy Pakistanis can take key posts worldwide and establish their names in areas where they have not been allowed to enter as yet.

Edited by - UzairCh on Jul 24 2009 9:23:24 PM
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2009 :  9:34:27 PM  Show Profile
Dear,

I don't have any reservations to your comments on comparing ICAEW with other bodies more specifically because I have not made such comparisons at my own and I in fact cannot comment negatively or positively on your analysis of flexibilities.

I just pointed out that getting authorization is not that easier as had been portrayed. ICAEW does not authorize firms simply on exchange of few emails. However, a firm should get authorization only if it is capable.

It's good to know that you are well aware of the things happening around in the firms. Had you previously been the student of the firm you named?

In my view your decision of having CA designation is very good although it has to remain unaffected by my note of appreciation.

However, if some one criticises your decision it reflects the frustration and griefs he had been facing in his career. Claiming to be CA from Scotland and ACCA when he was a "poor" student thereof provide evidence to what I have just mentioned.

I wish you very best and a properous future as a management accountant and chartered accountant (to be)!

Regards,


KAMRAN.
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2009 :  10:00:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
@ KamranACA

what advice would you give to an ACCA affiliate in Pakistan? Should he directly claim exemptions from ICAEW or should he pursue CA from ICAP?
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UzairCh
Junior

Pakistan
63 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2009 :  10:30:25 PM  Show Profile
No I was not part of the firm but my father had his training during the late 1970s in the lahore office the firm I named. I have good interaction with the Managing partner of that firm. I have been working in the Industry before moving into CA profession and that to just recently and spent my time first in Deloitte and then EY.

Edited by - UzairCh on Jul 24 2009 10:31:58 PM
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2009 :  12:13:48 AM  Show Profile
Dear,

ACCA is good qualification if we look at its academic side, its subjects, study material, contents, and so on. This can polish the abilities of a genius but can't help every one with same intensity. There is lot more which needs to be reviewed which in my personal opinion (that's not binding on any one else) has been ignored. I discussed it with representatives of Pak chapter and they acknolwdged what I said is in fact notable and workable. However, neither they have to compulsorily act upon my humble suggestions nor I am so much concerned to keep on debating with them. Leaving a few rare cases which I know you are aware of, ACCAs are not well accepted at Pakistan and in fact flow out in loads every year. This creates frustration for lot more people who went out with an intent of returning gracefully to the homeland. The intent which never comes true because they know what they will be offered here. You must have witnessed cases of such frustration.

This was not what you asked but lays the foundation of what I want to reply.

In fact no qualification is that bad if we discuss it simply with reference to the academic issues. Professionaly speaking we can find differences. This is what one needs to concentrate on.

ICAEW has a history of larger acceptance at sub continent as well as so many parts of the world. It's respected for its quality undoubtedly. This has nothing to do with poor people's creation of master slave issues or revenue race or number game etc. Had it been the case ACCA should have been respected professionally in same fashion which unfortunately is not the case irrespective of lots of MRAs. If one can understand he may be knowing that like academic contents, MRAs can also not enhance acceptance in some designation's originality. Yes MRAs provide a base to penetrate if the subject qualification is factually upto it. So again undoubtedly it is solely based upon the grace, priviliges and honor which ICAEW carries for its quality over the decades and decades. It's no master slave issue.

ICAP has a greater relevance to the people who want to settle down at Pakistan or eventually at Pakistan although its members are working around the globe. It carrys independent identity and backing by Goverment, public and private sectors being localized charterholder, advisor and part of policy making exercizes at some fronts or in some facets.

ICAP did not make that level of efforts for MRAs etc in past since there was huge demand supply imbalance for its members thereby providing handsome returns locally as well as internationally.

However, now as a step forward to do the needful in changed globalized scenario it has recently started efforts for MRAs and MOU with ICAEW is the first such step. The people commenting on the step are theirself the most rejected and frustrated one. Their condition does not make them to understand this process. Essense is, end of times has not come and we have to witness a lot more in coming days on positive pole. An international qualification may come forth which can change the whole scene. I don't go into details before time.

In Pak ICAEW is fully recognised for membership of ICAP but this membership carries restricted rights. For getting into public practice they have to pass certain papers of ICAP. Without this they could be good only for industry and not for profession. Terms to be taken in general sense.

So summing up this whole write up, I feel ICAEW's CA will be a good option for ACCAs because they will get ICAP's membership as well. However two things can affect this decision. Firstly, since end of times has not come, if ICAP will restrict its membership to those ICAEW members who do not carry such designation on the basis of ACCA (or CIMA) then it will not be good. I personally will suggest ICAP's council members to take such decision since it also follows same rule. Let's see what they feel appropriate.

Secondly, even if ICAEW members who got such designation on the basis of ACCA are given ICAP's membership, they will not be allowed to start or join any public practice.

Keeping this in mind you can take your own decision.

Let me know if you require some input.

Regards,



Kamran.
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2009 :  09:27:52 AM  Show Profile
Dears,

It's again hilarious. What a man is this!

He knows what firms intake simply on the basis of info given on websites and argues to the people who are practically managing the firms or working in the firms in whatever capacity. He also find it hard to understand all the worries expressed by ACCA students ragrding least intaking of ACCAs by firms. I also wonder if he found the stipend rates declared at their websites for ACCA students. What a man he is!

The intaking criteria given at a website does not mean that it has to be followed compulsorily. Criterias normally prescribe the minimum and in case of availability of mximum no body opts for the minimum.

I wonder if he has never seen 45 percent passing marks criteria for admission in so many streams of studies. We know hardly any one having such marks is entertained there. The fools cannot differentiate and the fradulents / liars keep on bluffing. It's their habit. No worries.

Was there any logic to give Haider Abbas's email ID? Every one at this forum can even access his official and personal phone numbers. If a brain does not work he can ask how these could be accessed. A poor struggling ACCA affiliate does not understand that partners of reputed firms are not hidden like them. As soon as you will get to know their name, it's no issue to get their contacts and addresses. If any one simply type my FULL name at any internet search engine, he will get all of my info. Haider is partner of one of best firms of Pakistan. Who needed disclosure of his email address? This is an effort to mitigate the respect lost by some one through criminal/fradulent acts at this forum.

If some one is so courgeous and willing then why he does not reply the proven allegations of misrepresentation and decieving the forum members?

Beaware of the frauds and lies of this man. He has been proven to be criminal and was thrown out by ADMIN. Remember this!

Regards,


Kamran.
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UzairCh
Junior

Pakistan
63 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2009 :  5:17:10 PM  Show Profile
So its ACCA part 2 and ICAP intermediate are getting same salary in firm in Pakistan. However ACCA students normally do not stay in firms because of salary reason as someone who is paying fees in pounds will naturally not accept salary of couple of thousands Pak ruppes. Moreover, I came to know through this site that ACCA is expensive and ACA from ICAP is cheaper. I am not making any distinction but its reality (given facts in Pakistan) that ppl doing ACCA are relatively well off than ppl doing ACA from ICAP, so salry offered to trainees in firms in Pakistan is not acceptable to ACCA students that is why they prefer to fly to UAE.

No mroneflower1 its not the same in all cities of Pakistan. In big 4 firms in karachi ACCA affiliates are getting more salaries that CA inters. While ACCA part qualifieds are getting slightly lesser that CA Inters. In medium sized and small sized firms ACCAs and CA inters either get same salary or less that CA inters.

In Lahore and Islamabad the situation is different. Only KPMG and EY invite part qualified ACCA trainees and that too with strong reference.Smaller firms accept them but with lesser stipents around 4,400 etc. Firms Generally donot accept part qualified ACCAs because they leave firms after sometime. The rule in most of Big 4 is that ACCA must be full qualified and eligible to be registered with ICAP. PART QUALIFIED ACCAs IF TAKEN ON INTERNSHIP ARE NOT GIVEN ANY STIPEND AND INTERNSHIP LASTS 6 months. IF DUE TO SOME STRONG REFERENCE THEY ARE GIVEN TRAINING FOR ACCA then the stipend offered is Rs5500.

Actually the reason why ACCAs leave the firm is not because ACCA is expensive and they are given lesser stipends. As you said only well off people do ACCA. Yes its true only well off people can afford it so finacially they have no problem. The reason why ACCAs quit CA firms is they have better chances of getting a good job, after qualifying, in middle east as compared to CA Inters. So they keep looking for jobs and then leave firms as soon as they find one. This created problems for the next generation of ACCAs and they are finding it very difficult to enter in Leading firms. I repeatedly urge my ACCA and CIMA fellows in different firms and schools and colleges to dont weigh your life in firms in terms of money. You donot need money at the age of 20 or 21. You should look for experience. Spend your 3 years very carefully in these firms if you get into and learn something. These 3 years which you spend in a big 4 at a very low stipend will give you a huge reward in the later years of your life.

Trainees opinion change about firms ONCE THEY FINISH THEIR TRAINING. You will dislike your firm only before joining it or in the initial months. But after that you will enjoy your articles life and believe me 'pata bhi naheen chalay ga yeh period guzar jae ga'

Those people suffer, cry and never go high up in their lives who quit the firms in 1 years time. When they find jobs abroad, foreign employers often request Big4 firms to provide opinion about how the person was. In most of the cases firms send negative feedback and it turns out to be a huge blow for the person.
You asked about me whether i will be given any high stipend or not I am still too young to worry about money. May be I am different from others but I donot weigh things at this stage in monetory terms. I believe my focus is firstly to qualify and secondly to learn to work, thats all. Once these 2 things are achieved then money itself will flow to me. :-) My advise to everyone is never be short tempered and dont spoil you future in hasty decisions. Getting into big firms is not an easy thing and once you get it start respecting it and be thankful about it and always remember you are very close to a remarkable career in your life, dont spoil or waste your chance.


Edited by - UzairCh on Jul 25 2009 7:02:25 PM
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2009 :  8:57:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Originally posted by kamranACA

Dear,

ACCA is good qualification if we look at its academic side, its subjects, study material, contents, and so on. This can polish the abilities of a genius but can't help every one with same intensity. There is lot more which needs to be reviewed which in my personal opinion (that's not binding on any one else) has been ignored. I discussed it with representatives of Pak chapter and they acknolwdged what I said is in fact notable and workable. However, neither they have to compulsorily act upon my humble suggestions nor I am so much concerned to keep on debating with them. Leaving a few rare cases which I know you are aware of, ACCAs are not well accepted at Pakistan and in fact flow out in loads every year. This creates frustration for lot more people who went out with an intent of returning gracefully to the homeland. The intent which never comes true because they know what they will be offered here. You must have witnessed cases of such frustration.

This was not what you asked but lays the foundation of what I want to reply.

In fact no qualification is that bad if we discuss it simply with reference to the academic issues. Professionaly speaking we can find differences. This is what one needs to concentrate on.

ICAEW has a history of larger acceptance at sub continent as well as so many parts of the world. It's respected for its quality undoubtedly. This has nothing to do with poor people's creation of master slave issues or revenue race or number game etc. Had it been the case ACCA should have been respected professionally in same fashion which unfortunately is not the case irrespective of lots of MRAs. If one can understand he may be knowing that like academic contents, MRAs can also not enhance acceptance in some designation's originality. Yes MRAs provide a base to penetrate if the subject qualification is factually upto it. So again undoubtedly it is solely based upon the grace, priviliges and honor which ICAEW carries for its quality over the decades and decades. It's no master slave issue.

ICAP has a greater relevance to the people who want to settle down at Pakistan or eventually at Pakistan although its members are working around the globe. It carrys independent identity and backing by Goverment, public and private sectors being localized charterholder, advisor and part of policy making exercizes at some fronts or in some facets.

ICAP did not make that level of efforts for MRAs etc in past since there was huge demand supply imbalance for its members thereby providing handsome returns locally as well as internationally.

However, now as a step forward to do the needful in changed globalized scenario it has recently started efforts for MRAs and MOU with ICAEW is the first such step. The people commenting on the step are theirself the most rejected and frustrated one. Their condition does not make them to understand this process. Essense is, end of times has not come and we have to witness a lot more in coming days on positive pole. An international qualification may come forth which can change the whole scene. I don't go into details before time.

In Pak ICAEW is fully recognised for membership of ICAP but this membership carries restricted rights. For getting into public practice they have to pass certain papers of ICAP. Without this they could be good only for industry and not for profession. Terms to be taken in general sense.

So summing up this whole write up, I feel ICAEW's CA will be a good option for ACCAs because they will get ICAP's membership as well. However two things can affect this decision. Firstly, since end of times has not come, if ICAP will restrict its membership to those ICAEW members who do not carry such designation on the basis of ACCA (or CIMA) then it will not be good. I personally will suggest ICAP's council members to take such decision since it also follows same rule. Let's see what they feel appropriate.

Secondly, even if ICAEW members who got such designation on the basis of ACCA are given ICAP's membership, they will not be allowed to start or join any public practice.

Keeping this in mind you can take your own decision.

Let me know if you require some input.

Regards,



Kamran.




Thank u for a detailed and in-length reply. I really appreciate that. According to my understanding at the moment, there is substantial risk involved for an ACCA affiliate to become an ACA-ICAEW student. This is mainly because most of the to-be ACCA Affilates(waiting for the results) are unsure and skeptical that whether they would be able to get an ICAEW Training Contract in Pakistan. I have however claimed the credit for prior learning from ICAEW, just in case if there are other developments.

On the other hand, CA-ICAP seems to be a more safer path for an ACCA Affiliate, and i know a number of ACCAs who took this path and have been enjoying quite a successful career.

I agree with you that some aspects of the ACCA qualification needs to be reviewed. I personally feel that the there should be strict entrance requirements for the ACCA qualification. AT the moment any Tom, Dick or Harry can enter into ACCA without any testing. Secondly, the marking procedure of the exam scripts should be improved. I know a number of below average students, who had little or no knowledge about the subject, still passing their papers. This is very unfair and demotivating for those students who spend days and nights in their studies, reading reference books and journals, and at the end of the day find themselves on the same stand as any other mediocre student. To strengthen this point i would like to quote Michael Mainwaring, the teacher for ACCA paper P3 "Business Analysis" at London College of Accountancy UK. Mainwaring writes about the marking procedure of ACCA and states that:

"Students labour under the naive belief that their exam papers are marked by a dedicated subject specialist, against a detailed marking scheme in which there are uniform standards which determines who passes and who fails. I suspect that such students also believe in Father Christmas, the tooth fairy and that auditing is about generating a true and fair view of a business.

No. They are marked by people who are largely doing it for the money, and doing it under time pressures, with only general guidance of what marks to award. Further, i has long been suspected (and the ACCA has apparently admitted) that marks are adjusted to achieve the desired pass rates. What this means is that you can pass this exam by writing crap, as long as it is neatly presented crap, and as long as you give crappy answers to three questions, and as long as 40% or so of other students sitting the paper write crappier answers".
(emphasis is mine) Page iv ACCA P3 "Business Analysis" Study Manual by Michael Mainwaring, published by LCA.

Above words of Mainwaring might be encouraging for those students who wish to pass their papers without laboring for it, but it deeply concerns me as this method of marking would prove to be detrimental for the quality of ACCA. Moreover this marking methodology would (infact, it has) cause incompetent people to flood the job market, creating problems for deserving individuals.

I usually compare myself with those of my friends who are CA-Inters and are about the same age as i am, and i find that as an ACCA Affiliate i would have more options available to me than they have at the moment. However, more options often cause confusions, dilemmas and trilemmas!! But one feels a lot secure when they have a variety of options available to them. But having more options is not necessarily an ingredient for the recipe of a successful career. Secondly, i feel that i have gained more knowledge in ACCA than i would have achieved as a CA-Inter. That difference is evident if one compares the syllabus of CA-Inter with ACCA syllabus. The knowledge i have gained in ACCA has prepared me for the Module E and Module F papers i will have to attempt in CA-ICAP (except for Law and Taxation papers). To conclude, according to my limited knowlegde, i believe that ACCA is a good route for CA-ICAP. But that is my view; others might have a different view as well.
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tariqsohail
Semi Senior

United Arab Emirates
210 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2009 :  8:57:56 PM  Show Profile
Completely agree with Mr. Uzair's last post. If you are able to pass your intial but very important time in a good organization then things will automatically flowing towards you.
Regards,
Sohail
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rabia-k
Manager

United Arab Emirates
805 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2009 :  4:26:50 PM  Show Profile
@ odyssee
"any tom dick and harry can enter the ACCA without any testing."

i dont agree with you on this one. what i have seen here is that pakistani metric pass students are always put into CAT. i have rarely seen a pakistani metric pass student who has directly been enrolled into the ACCA. you have to be an O/A levels to register with the ACCA.

what really confuses me is when i see b.com and M.coms registering with ACCA and receiving the same sort of exemptions in ACCA i.e papers from papers F1 to F4. infact i have an MBA in my class who's only exempted from the first 4 papers.!!! eventhough the ACCA P level is considered to be equivalent to masters degree, to some extent.

i did rather say that any tom dick and harry can pass the ACCA, IF they work hard. you dont really need to be a genius to pass your ACCA papers. with a solid 5 hrs learning in a day, one can pull a rabbit out of the hat with the ACCA (Fudamental level)

still i see students taking 3 to 4 attempts to pass their papers, managing to scrap a 50 , 52 mark which is very low. its just unfair for students passing with 70%+ burning away the midnight oil, studying.
we also have an option to choose P4. this subject is so very essential for any would be accountant, i mean how can any1 just bypass this paper? but there are students who DO skip this paper.

middle east is a huge market for ACCAs, BUT you also have a huge ever growing no. of ACCA students studying, living amd working here. leave alone the other countries, there are several students already studying for the ACCA here and also working in firms. our institute is a gold approved ACCA tuition provider, fully managed and owned by indians except for the ACCA department. we have ACCA tutors from Pakistan . they come here, teach for 4 or 6 months and then return back to pakistan. not everyone is lucky to get a job in firms here. the truth is that there are just too many and too few jobs, WORRY!!


Edited by - rabia-k on Jul 26 2009 5:44:58 PM
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2009 :  7:30:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Originally posted by rabia-k

@ odyssee
"any tom dick and harry can enter the ACCA without any testing."

i dont agree with you on this one. what i have seen here is that pakistani metric pass students are always put into CAT. i have rarely seen a pakistani metric pass student who has directly been enrolled into the ACCA. you have to be an O/A levels to register with the ACCA.

what really confuses me is when i see b.com and M.coms registering with ACCA and receiving the same sort of exemptions in ACCA i.e papers from papers F1 to F4. infact i have an MBA in my class who's only exempted from the first 4 papers.!!! eventhough the ACCA P level is considered to be equivalent to masters degree, to some extent.

i did rather say that any tom dick and harry can pass the ACCA, IF they work hard. you dont really need to be a genius to pass your ACCA papers. with a solid 5 hrs learning in a day, one can pull a rabbit out of the hat with the ACCA (Fudamental level)

still i see students taking 3 to 4 attempts to pass their papers, managing to scrap a 50 , 52 mark which is very low. its just unfair for students passing with 70%+ burning away the midnight oil, studying.
we also have an option to choose P4. this subject is so very essential for any would be accountant, i mean how can any1 just bypass this paper? but there are students who DO skip this paper.

middle east is a huge market for ACCAs, BUT you also have a huge ever growing no. of ACCA students studying, living amd working here. leave alone the other countries, there are several students already studying for the ACCA here and also working in firms. our institute is a gold approved ACCA tuition provider, fully managed and owned by indians except for the ACCA department. we have ACCA tutors from Pakistan . they come here, teach for 4 or 6 months and then return back to pakistan. not everyone is lucky to get a job in firms here. the truth is that there are just too many and too few jobs, WORRY!!





@ Rabia
when i said "any tom, dick or harry can enter into ACCA", my reference was towards the students who register as an ACCA through the Mature Student Entry Route, according to which, the only requirement is, that u need to be 21 years old at the time of registration. This is the route to ACCA which concerns me deeply and was the focus of my criticism. Secondly, after A-levels, the resquirements for registering as an ACCA student through the Professional Entry Route, is to have 2 passes in any subjects. Even those who have scored E's(50%) in Urdu or Sociology in A-levels can register as an ACCA student. Is it fair?

i completely agree with you that any tom, dick or harry can pass ACCA papers. This is mainly because of the marking procedures adopted by ACCA, as i have metnioned in the earlier post, and unless something is done about it, it is bound to ruin the quality of ACCA qualification. But i can assure you that the syllabus of ACCA is of international standard and is comparable with any international accountancy qualification. The only flaw is in the examining and marking methodology, according to which those students who do not have perfect understanding of the syllabus can still pass their exams. I'll give u an example: Technically IFRS 4 is in the syllabus of P2 "Corporate Reporting". I would challenge u to ask any ACCA student who has passed P2, to explain u IFRS 4. You'd be surprised to witness their unability to do so. Similarly, IFRICs and SIC's are technically in the syllabus of P2, but no one cares to understand them because in the exam questions are not normally set on them. So, one who has spent his time equally at understanding ALL the elements of the syllabus would probably score lower than him/her who has spent his done exam focused studies. Thats what my argument is. The focus is not on understanding issues and concepts, but to simply pass the papers. And most of the teachers follow this exam focused approach. It is good for passing the exams. But that would only give one a limited understanding of the syllabus, even after passing the exams.

Again i agree with u that P4 should be a compulsory subject as it was in the previous ACCA syllabus. Atleast in karachi, i must tell u that most of the students attempt P4 n P5. Infact i also attempted the same combination. A question can be asked that, how can one bypass P7 "Advanced Audit and Assurance" in ACCA? EY has a policy of giving a raised stipend (more than CA inters) to those who have passes in P6 or P7. But still a majority of the students attempt P4 n P5. This is because there is only 1 reputable teacher of P6 in karachi, and none for P7.

Almost all of my friends who became ACCA Affiliates in the last session, got inducted into Big4. Those who didnt get into Big4 actually didnt apply in BIG4 and preferred to join the industry or the financial institutions. You would definitely find many ACCA students who are frustrated and will be constantly whining and complaining about not getting a training contract (i've been through that stage), but you wont find any ACCA affiliate doing the same. You might find ACCA Affiliates complaining about the work load and the lack of decent stipend in the firm (CA Inters complain the same way during articleship), but u would hardly find an ACCA Affiliate who is unemployed or not under a training contract. And i guess this is the bright side which everyone should focus on.
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Mujahid
Senior

Pakistan
305 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2009 :  8:40:11 PM  Show Profile  Send Mujahid a Yahoo! Message
Abay thak jao. Itna likh likh k thaktay nahee? :/ Mujhe to parh k hi sir dukhnay lagta hai. Koi paisay deta hai kia itna likhnay k? Aur rabia, larki in logon k saath na uth beth. Tumhein bhi aadat lag gai lambi lambi post karnay ki :/
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Mujahid
Senior

Pakistan
305 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2009 :  8:43:53 PM  Show Profile  Send Mujahid a Yahoo! Message
Khabardaar: Lambi posts parhna aur likhna sehat k liye muzir hai :Wizarat-e-Shahbaz
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2009 :  8:55:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mujahid

Khabardaar: Lambi posts parhna aur likhna sehat k liye muzir hai :Wizarat-e-Shahbaz



i can understand why reading might be huge problem for some of us
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rabia-k
Manager

United Arab Emirates
805 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2009 :  10:47:08 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Mujahid

Abay thak jao. Itna likh likh k thaktay nahee? :/ Mujhe to parh k hi sir dukhnay lagta hai. Koi paisay deta hai kia itna likhnay k? Aur rabia, larki in logon k saath na uth beth. Tumhein bhi aadat lag gai lambi lambi post karnay ki :/



Brother Shahbaz thank you for being concerned about me
kuch ka sir parh ke dukhnay lagta hai, kuch ka sir soch soch ke dukhney lagta hai
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Goodman
Senior

328 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2009 :  07:50:01 AM  Show Profile
pls. take note:

BOI (Board of Investments') advert is lost
Mroneflower is back.

i think forum admin should publish the traffic info.
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ausmanpk2001
Manager

Pakistan
728 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2009 :  08:02:11 AM  Show Profile
Keeping all these discussions aside, I'm an ACCA student & really want to sign an ICAEW training contract with a big4 firm so as to qualify as a CA-ICAEW, CA-ICAP & ACCA within next two years!

Secondly, the marking criteria post is really absurd. The examiners may be under time pressure, deadlines etc but there is a very clear marking criteria which acca publishes after results & is available on the website with past papers. The marking scheme is very clear to the extent that how much marks to award per point & how much marks for writing clarity etc etc.

Secondly, here I can certify with PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that no one passes without writing a good enough paper. I don't know how & why some people claiming to be ACCA students are saying things like in the above posts.
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2009 :  2:08:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Originally posted by mroneflower1

so there is no a single quality teacher for ACCA P6 and P7 paper in biggest city of pakistan karachi, but still ACCA is easy and everyone can pass ACCA examinations. its really fun Eerytime you visit this site and read posts. Enjoy

All important and necessary areas of old 3.7 papers has moved to Current Financial Management paper.

According to my Information EY pays at least 15,000 Pak ruppes to ACCA Exam Qualified, as a starting salary.

To register with ACCA min entry requirements are

two A Levels and three GCSEs or equivalent in five separate subjects, including English and Mathematics.

or

21 yrs of age without any qualification.
http://www.accaglobal.com/join/acca/entry

so Mathematics at A-Level is manadatory,

on other hands to register with ICAEW min entry requirement are

Although most of our students enter ACA training with a degree, it is possible to train for the qualification immediately upon leaving school, as long as you have at least two good A2 levels.

http://www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/159082/icaew_ga/en/Qualifications/Train_for_the_ACA/Entry_routes/A_Level_to_ACA

So regsiter with ICAEW its not manaatory to study mathematics at A-levels.

or

25 yrs of age without any qualification. (I provided link exaplining this entry route in thread, Who wants to do ACA from ICAEW.

Its really rustrating that ppl claiming to be ACCA students and ACCA Exam qualified do not have basic information about ACCA and therefore are being exploited by ICAP.

Moreover If one register with ACCA under MSER(21yrs), the does not become ACCA normal student unless person pass F2 and F3 within 2 yrs. If person does not pass F2 and F3 within 2 yrs then person cannot continue ACCA studies.

On other hands person who register with ICAEW under MSER (25 yrs) become ICAEW regular student from day one.

In short ACCA min entry requirtements are higher than ICAEW (ICAP yardstik). I am giving ICAEW examples again and again as in pakistan accountant (ICAP) on understand by examples are given with reference to ICAEW.

About MBA ppl exemption question in ACCA. Person who asked this question alraedy know everything so no need to answer or expalin.



Just want to make a correction:"2 A Levels and 3 GCSEs or equivalent in five separate subjects, including English and Mathematics". That does not mean that Mathematics at A-levels is mandatory. It means that Mathematics and English is mandatory at O-levels (NOT A-levels) so as to register as an ACCA student. O-levels is equivalent to GCSE. So, a person who will register through the Professional entry route needs to have 2 passes in A-levels in ANY subjects and 5 passes in O-levels including Mathematics and English.

I have friends who are ACCA Affiliates and are inducted in EY karachi during this year and their stipend is Rs6,500 per month(same as CA-Inter). Those who have passes in either P6 or P7 get Rs9,500 per month.

I have already quoted Michael Mainwaring, who is himself a teacher at LCA, and he says that "You can pass this exam by writing crap". This does not in any way mean that the syllabus of ACCA is crap or the student who has passed the ACCA exams does not know anything about the syllabus. It means that, at times, those who do not have a complete understanding of the overall syllabus can pass their exams and i have already given an example that you would hardly find a recently qualified ACCA Affiliate who can explain you IFRS-4, even though it is included in the syllabus of P2"corporate reporting". Dont get me wrong; ACCA is a great qualification in terms of the knowledge u gain. But there are some flaws in the examination process, as mentioned by Michael Mainwaring, which need to be addressed so as to maintain its quality.
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2009 :  2:14:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Originally posted by ausmanpk2001

Keeping all these discussions aside, I'm an ACCA student & really want to sign an ICAEW training contract with a big4 firm so as to qualify as a CA-ICAEW, CA-ICAP & ACCA within next two years!

Secondly, the marking criteria post is really absurd. The examiners may be under time pressure, deadlines etc but there is a very clear marking criteria which acca publishes after results & is available on the website with past papers. The marking scheme is very clear to the extent that how much marks to award per point & how much marks for writing clarity etc etc.

Secondly, here I can certify with PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that no one passes without writing a good enough paper. I don't know how & why some people claiming to be ACCA students are saying things like in the above posts.



@ausmanpk2001
I have the same career ambitions as you have.

Regarding my post about the marking criteria, i have quoted Michael Mainwaring, teacher of P3 at LCA, who has criticized the ACCA marking procedure. I have merely based my argument on his comments.
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Goodman
Senior

328 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2009 :  5:56:51 PM  Show Profile
Dear Odyssee

You quoted michael mainwaring's golden words to pass in an attempt to enlighten all of us.

Would you now please be kind enough to again see the same manual and tell the forum what year did michael mainwaring himself passed the ACCA's so called crap exams.

In the light of your answer i will then draw your attention to another aspect of your discussion.
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2009 :  7:23:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Originally posted by Goodman

Dear Odyssee

You quoted michael mainwaring's golden words to pass in an attempt to enlighten all of us.

Would you now please be kind enough to again see the same manual and tell the forum what year did michael mainwaring himself passed the ACCA's so called crap exams.

In the light of your answer i will then draw your attention to another aspect of your discussion.



first of all, ACCA exams are not crap. i never said that nor do i believe that. I would appreciate if u do not put words in my mouth! Some papers of ACCA are very challenging and require a deeper analysis and critical thinking. The problem i am discussing is that some papers of ACCA can be passed without a complete understanding of the overall syllabus. Thats what Mainwaring said, and keeping everything in perspective, i agree with him.

An introdcution of Michael Mainwaring is available on LCA website on the following link:
http://www.londoncollege.org/about-us/tutors#mw
LCA is a Platinum Status Tuition Provider for ACCA qualification.

On a lighter note; anyone attempting P3 should try Mainwaring's Study Manual. It contains some great tips to pass your paper.
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Odyssee
Senior

Pakistan
481 Posts

Posted - Jul 27 2009 :  7:47:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssee's Homepage  Send Odyssee a Yahoo! Message
quote:
Originally posted by mroneflower1

Dear Odyssee

thanks for your post. i know GCSE means O-levels. To study Math at A-Levels in manadotry, however i will double check with ACCA.

Michael Mainwaring is not qualified Accountant. He is M.Sc. He used to teach in Kaplan Finanial, but due to some problem with Kaplan management he left Kaplan and joined. He teaches ACCA current paper P3 or used to teach ACCA old paper 3.5.



Dear mroneflowerpk1,

Actually, i have myself registered as an ACCA student after A-levels. I had passes in Accounting, Business Studies and Urdu in A-levels. I didnt attempt A-levels Mathematics and English(English is not an A-levels subject, it is AS-level). In O-levels, however, atleast a C grade(70%) is required in Maths and English so as to register through the Professional entry route.

So, i am pretty sure that A-levels Mathematics and English is not mandatory to register as an ACCA student.

Edited by - Odyssee on Jul 27 2009 7:53:15 PM
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kamranACA
Partner

Pakistan
2499 Posts

Posted - Jul 28 2009 :  08:19:41 AM  Show Profile
Goodman,

Brother it appears the untiring efforts of Admin and indirect effects of the man discussed by you have succeeded bringing BOI back.

I think Admin was extremely busy in bringing BOI back that's why their so-called SOPs have been sleeping so far. Let's see when the memories of such SOPs will be restored.

Certainly they have to watch their interest and keep their cash flowing towards them.

Regards,



Kamran.

Edited by - kamranACA on Jul 28 2009 08:22:32 AM
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