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 What is "A" in ICMAP?
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Greatkhans
Junior

Pakistan
115 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2010 :  8:45:17 PM  Show Profile
There is a general impression amongst the public and the students that ICMAP deliberately fails competent students. I don’t know how true this is, but I know that ICMAP passes students who secure “A”. What is “A” is unknown. Most CMAs told me that “A” is decided based on economic situation in the country which provides bases to NC of ICMAP that how many number of CMA should pass in each exam. Here still a question arises, how they decide the economy need as many CMAs? Is there any scientific formula for that? If yes, why it is not made public to make the policy transparent or is it just the best judgment of the NC of ICMAP. This situation is causing a high dropout rate. It looks that acquiring the designation is more based on once luck than hardworking. In other institutes around the world anyone who secures required mark is passed no matter how economy is behaving. I wrote many e-mail followed by many reminders to ICMAP on the issue which are still not responded. Does anyone has information about that?

Regards,

umair_cma
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
28 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2010 :  10:37:26 PM  Show Profile
Greatkhans
I have no information about that but i can tell you something which is my personal experience . If we believe on the argument that ICMA pass students on the basis of economic situation then no body can pass the exam because you know how is our economic position today. If i take my example i have been studying in Icmap since 3 years and believe it or not i know that in which paper i will be pass and in which paper i will be failed.

As far as i think of the criteria of passing it depends on how was the paper you will see more people not able to pass when the paper is Easy and vise versa.
Thats what i can say the most

Regards,
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awaisaftab
Partner

Pakistan
1109 Posts

Posted - Jan 07 2010 :  11:53:38 AM  Show Profile  Send awaisaftab a Yahoo! Message
I inquired about grade -A many years ago from a senior student he replied me that A grade is granted in a subject in which a student get exact passing marks. Under 1998 syllabus temporary exemptions are offered to students who gets grade A in a subject in order to facilitate promotion in next stage. It means if a student has failed in one paper of stage 1 and have grade A in only one subject and remaing all subject are passed then he was granted temporary exemption to promote in stage 3. But I think now ICMAP do not grants grade A to any student under syllabus 2005.
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umair_cma
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
28 Posts

Posted - Jan 07 2010 :  4:04:20 PM  Show Profile
awaisaftab
No
icmap still grant "A" in the results under 2005 syllabus
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Greatkhans
Junior

Pakistan
115 Posts

Posted - Jan 07 2010 :  6:02:19 PM  Show Profile
Hi Umair & Awais Bhai,

Thanks for explaining the situation. Umair Bhai you are just sharing your feelings and experience which might be correct. Awais Bhai what your are referring to, is I think called “Referral Policy”. It is obvious that if someone is securing required mark he is getting grade “A”. However, my question is still there, what is grade “A”? How many marks should one secure to achieve grade “A”. If it is an unknown variable then what formula National Council uses to come up with that number?

I think we represent a world class professional institute so there should be some scientific basis for this decision which affects life of thousands of students. I have been looking for my answer for many years but no one could explain me. Awais Bhai, since you are our senior at institute, could you please co-ordinate with the institute to obtain policy document on this?
Regards,
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Muhammad Zahid
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
15 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  12:33:05 PM  Show Profile  Send Muhammad Zahid an AOL message
Greatkhans
I think same is true in the case of ICAP. In the recent result of ICMAP only 10 student cleared final stage all over pakistan. ICMAP is a professional institute and professional education demands higher standards of education. One should not be diappointed with the result. I personally feel chances of success depends more on three hours attempted paper where you can sense success when you leave examination hall; i.e how well you have attempted your paper. I beleive system of examination requires revamp. While i beg to little diagree with notion that ICMAP should compromise its standards to curb dropout rate.
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Greatkhans
Junior

Pakistan
115 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  6:16:19 PM  Show Profile
Hi Zahid,

Thanks for your contribution. You are very right that this is also the case with ICAP. You also referred that there were only 10 students who got through the final exam of ICMAP. Please note that there might be hundreds of students (because of accumulation over many years) who wrote the final exam. ICMAP never discloses (or I don’t know at least) that how many students participated and what is the passing rate at each level. If you see the result carefully the number of students at initial level is much higher than at the final stages. If the passing rate is not good at initial level, it makes sense to me that the study at B.Com level is very poor so more students don’t get through. If more students are failing at higher stage, it means that study at initial level of ICMAP is not equipping students with required skills. This is a flaw in study program.

The flip side of the discussion is that our students are not capable and they don’t study properly. They don’t attain the high standards of ICMAP. At least I don’t accept this logic because the same kind a student gets through in CIMA, ACCA, ICAEW which are world’s most reputed institutions and set educational standards.

ICMAP members also claims to be world’s best institution in accounting but when we see the research side of the ICMAP we find material of ACCA as someone referred somewhere on this forum. It looks that we are watching CNN on Fox TV.

If you see the mission statement of ICMAP which is as follows:
“To develop strategic leaders through imparting quality education and training in Management Accounting, to continually set and upgrade professional standards and to conduct research, ringing value-addition to the economy.”

I last 60 years how many standards ICMAP issued/set? You would be surprised to see that ICMPA paid Re. 0.00 to researchers in the last year financials. You can understand the valued of free research?

I don’t know but there is something wrong somewhere for which I need help to understand.

Regards,

Edited by - Greatkhans on Jan 20 2010 6:21:10 PM
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Muhammad Zahid
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
15 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2010 :  11:49:23 AM  Show Profile  Send Muhammad Zahid an AOL message
Mr. Greatkhans

You have rightly brought out that there are hundreds of stundents struggling for years in a bid to get through their final examination. Some of them even give up this struggle and swithed to other qualifications i.e; CIMA, ACCA & ICAEW which are relatively easier. I would like to refer to recent switch over program of ICMAP due to which most of the students were reluctant to appear in previous examination.
Contents of ICMAP Syllabi are excellent and so is the mission statement but the Faculty and rigorous efforts required to produce world class professionals seems to be missing. While When it comes to examination our examiners level of expectation tends to be on the higher side. I was little surprise to see in recent financial report not even a single penny was spent on research. This reflects apathy of management. But here we can't blame institute alone industrial sector of Pakistan will have come forward. I bet if they cough up a meagre percentage of their profit for industrial research it will work wonder. Moreover, our course of study is designed to produce professionls who are capable of diagnosing problems that industry is suffering through. This will enable our professionals to gain insight and recommend plausible solutions to address these problems.

Nevertheless, ICMAP's MRA with CIMA (UK) Wherein ACMA(PK) granted 11 exemptions out 14 papers of CIMA(UK) is a land mark achievement. This thing speaks volume about ICMAP recognition within and outside Pakistan.

Regards,
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awaisaftab
Partner

Pakistan
1109 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2010 :  3:05:03 PM  Show Profile  Send awaisaftab a Yahoo! Message
Greatkhan

You have arisen right point research is more important for development of each and every field of knowledge. In European countries many big organization finance the research projects. You are right that ICMAP not spending not a single penny on research. Research always demands a huge sum of money. One of my relative who is doing his M.Phil from International Islamic University is Islamic Studies requested from me to arange some books for him. When I inqired about these books their cost were more than 25,000/-. Another example is one of my relative is doing Ph.D in chemistry his group is consistent of 3 members two of which are Ph.D students and one is supervisor. The allocated budget by HEC for the group is Rs.2,400,000/- . Research alway demand huge sum of money,patience and time. In some organization more funds are alocated to R&D function than any other function.

As far as the question that research paper of ACCA are available is concerned, this question was raised by an ex student of ICMAP in return I repplied in almost in the same way as I have done above.

No one engages in research or even in writing a single article unless he is assured some form of advantage. The students and teachers of natural and life sciences have some patience of research and writing articles exists because their publications are considered for fellowships, scholarships and while appointing faculty members.

You have must read "Management Accountant” ,the institutional magazine of the ICMAP, in this magazine we find rare true literary work. But ICMAP has initiated a right step the institute is launching an e-magazine “Rising Managers”. This is good step.

I much impressed with the recommendation of onne of fellow member of the institute who recommended that M.Phil/M.S program ,less than two year, should be initiated after qualifying ACMA to promote research and literary work among CMA’s.
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Townboy
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
9 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2010 :  3:37:49 PM  Show Profile
awaisaftab

In this era of competition you can't expect research work to be done without monetary incentive. Field of Natural sciences is said to most expensive when it comes to research work. In National elections last year one contesting party vow to get ACMA qualification recognised equivalent to M.Phil from HEC. If this deal materialised with HEC, it will open doors for much needed research work in this field.
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Greatkhans
Junior

Pakistan
115 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2010 :  6:29:52 PM  Show Profile
Awais Bhai,

I am really indebted to you for your healthy contributions. I would like to subscribe that I agree with you that research is very expensive venture for exact science subjects. You need state of the art equipment, sophisticated laboratories etc, which require huge money. My cousin did his Ph. D in chemistry from Tokyo University and the university has its own atomic reactor. But do you thing that this level of investment is required for Accounting and Business subjects? I hope your answer is no. Genuine Research will put ICMAP in the first line in the world, particularly when it is part of its mission statement.

As a student of Accounting and Economics, I not only read Management Accountant but also go through various world renowned accounting journals. You are very true that there is a little true literary work in Management Accountant. There are certain people who contribute to the journal. You need to be very close to the management of ICMAP to get your article published. I know one of the members of ICMAP who lives in North America sent an article to Management Accountant which ICMAP did not publish. Later the same article has been approved for publication in the Journal of Accountancy CPA-USA.

I can show you that in some article of Management Accountant material was copied from other articles and books without changing punctuation. They also did not give any reference for taking the benefit of that material. I hope you agree that it is literary dishonesty. The person who wrote those articles is well known and his degrees and designations cover half of his letterhead.

I came across with Rising Star while visiting ICMAP website. It is an excellent drive. However, we have to see that how productive it will be. I hope ICMAP will give equal opportunity to all students and articles will be subscribed on merit basis.

I belief, that ICMAP is not a university. So they will not be able to start an M. Phil/PhD program. However, they can make arrangements with any university to start such a program.

Your opinion will be highly appreciated.
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awaisaftab
Partner

Pakistan
1109 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2010 :  09:03:20 AM  Show Profile  Send awaisaftab a Yahoo! Message
Great Khan
Thanks a lot for you recommendations and contribution.
Well, copying material from the books of others, specially from foreign writers, is very common among over literary class.

You are right that research in Accounts, even in economics, do not required huge sum of money as compare to natural and applied sciences. Although we cannot say that the sum of money required for research in accounts requires allocation of funds in million but some thousands rupees are obviously required. I have estimated if you want to become specialist in Taxation only you have to purchase books costing about more than 20,000/- . Although internet has made easy the research work but many books are not available on internet. In the situation where many CA and ICMA finalists even do not have set of IFRS how you can expect research work from them. I have seen many students and member of the forum wondering here and there in search of soft copy of IFRS/IAS, although complete set of IFRS+IAS is available at concessionary rate for the students and members of ICMAP and ICAP in all the centers of ICAP for Rs. 1000/- only.

As far as your view is concerned "You need to be very close to the management of ICMAP to get your article published" I am disagree with you. I know about some senior students whose articles published in the Management Accountants. I have also sent some of my article for publishing in Management Accountant but these articles are still unpublished. Now Institute only publish the article of member in Management Accountant and only in rare case the articles of students are published.

I am agree with you that ICMAP is not a university actually if we say or recommend initiation of M.S/M.Phil program it means that the Institute should enter in a contract with any university for the grant of M.S or M.Phil in finance for its qualified students.

It was mentioned above that only ten student of ICMAP qualified ICMA in last exams in this contex I beleive that ICMAP alway releases the students according to market demand and we know very well the current job market situation.

Edited by - awaisaftab on Jan 23 2010 08:03:35 AM
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Muhammad Zahid
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
15 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2010 :  09:05:59 AM  Show Profile  Send Muhammad Zahid an AOL message
GreatKhans

Naturally ICMAP is not a university its a professional institute. It will only provide opportunity to enhance your qualification or to go for Ph.d at reputable university in the country or abroad. As for as i known there are certain universities offering MBA and M.Phil degree to ACMA upon submission of thesis.
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Greatkhans
Junior

Pakistan
115 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2010 :  10:22:29 AM  Show Profile
Hi Zahid,

You are very right that ICMAP is not a university. As far as I know, Central University of Punjab offers this MBA. I would be glade it you let me know any university which offers M/Phil. This is enhance my knoweldge.

Regards
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Greatkhans
Junior

Pakistan
115 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2010 :  10:31:07 AM  Show Profile
Awais,

You write:

"It was mentioned above that only ten student of ICMAP qualified ICMA in last exams in this contex I beleive that ICMAP alway releases the students according to market demand and we know very well the current job market situation."

Now you accept that policy is not transparent. How do you know the demand in the market? Is there any research methodology? Has it been disclosed anywhere on ICMAP website? A very hard working student should not qualify because there was recession in that period, and another student who did not work hard, can pass just because there was good demand in that period. What a policy it is. So students should pray for betterment of economy in the year they appear in the exam instead of working hard. It should not be a lottery, if you claim it to be a professional institute.

In Pakistan Some Mian Sahib or Dana wala, moti wala don’t need a “Chartered Accountant”, they need ..tiya Accountant because Banks don’t give loan on the face of Balance Sheet, they give loan on the face of seth. Mian Sahib or some “Walas” settle their tax issued with the help of “Briefcase”. They mostly hire Accountants for either “Khana Puri” or in competition that Mian Zahoor has three CAs, I will hire 4 CAs. So how you can project market demands for Accountants?

Edited by - Greatkhans on Jan 22 2010 10:42:13 AM
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Muhammad Zahid
Unregistered Trainee

Pakistan
15 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2010 :  1:22:33 PM  Show Profile  Send Muhammad Zahid an AOL message
GreatKhans

I think UCP offering MBA program for ACMA's but as far as M/Phil is concerned as Townboy said that efforts are in hand to somehow get ACMA equivalent to M/Phil qualification. I think HEC can play this role by giving equivalency status to ICMAP. As we all know that we undergo a rigorous studies of three year after graduation for attaining this qualification without knowing how long it will take to qualify. I read this thing in a publication of Lahore branch council last year that in India their ACMA is treated equivelant to M/Phil while their FCMA is equivalent to P.hd subject to certain conditions.
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maqszaman
Junior

Canada
118 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2010 :  07:11:25 AM  Show Profile
Hi Zahid,

It is really a nice news . I think ICMAP should go for that aggressively. This will bring good value to the profession. But sincere effort are required.

Regards,
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