Parcs as I said that democracy is the best form of government despite its all flaws.
One important point about our society is that it's a "Feudal Society" and feudalism is the prime hurdle in our prosperity. The democratic government in Pakistan had to rely upon these feudal for their success, infact many of them are a part of government. So, in our system currently its not possible to finish this feudalism by a democratic government.
I don't know what to name the governments we had in Pakistan, but one thing is for sure it was not democracy, and even if it was democracy then such democracy is unwanted.
I don't know what may be the exact solution of our problems but this so called democracy will only add to the menace.
Shoaib
Parcs as I said that democracy is the best form of government despite its all flaws.
One important point about our society is that it's a "Feudal Society" and feudalism is the prime hurdle in our prosperity. The democratic government in Pakistan had to rely upon these feudal for their success, infact many of them are a part of government. So, in our system currently its not possible to finish this feudalism by a democratic government.
I don't know what to name the governments we had in Pakistan, but one thing is for sure it was not democracy, and even if it was democracy then such democracy is unwanted.
I don't know what may be the exact solution of our problems but this so called democracy will only add to the menace.
Shoaib
I really don't think the two nations are really required. I am an Indian and a Hindu, too.
British ruled us for more than two centuries. I am saying us because at that time we were together. Did you remember any riots based on religion before British rule?
The riots are not natural but are plotted to increase the gap between the two nation's common public. The hot issues bring more votes and more votes brings more stable government that any political party ideally needs. This is the reason for communal riots.
Your thoughts are welcome.
With regards,
Mandar Thosar
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mandar-seo</i>
<br />I really don't think the two nations are really required. I am an Indian and a Hindu, too.
British ruled us for more than two centuries. I am saying us because at that time we were together. Did you remember any riots based on religion before British rule?
The riots are not natural but are plotted to increase the gap between the two nation's common public. The hot issues bring more votes and more votes brings more stable government that any political party ideally needs. This is the reason for communal riots.
Your thoughts are welcome.
With regards,
Mandar Thosar
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Mandar,
You can close your eyes to reality, for all I care. The two nation theory is here to stay !!
As for your rather naive observation about riots pre British times,.. flicker through a history book and check who were predominantely the rulers ?... MUSLIMS and who was the ruling partly post 1930's ? - Congress ! need I say more ?
I DONT WANT TO MAKE THIS TREAD COMMUNAL.
JUSTIFY THIS
AN INDIAN COUNTRY RULED BY MUSLIMS FROM ABOUT 12TH CENTURY TO 1857 WAS RULED BY MUSLIMS.THEIR ATROCITIES ON HINDUS ARE WELL KNOWN .AURANGZEBS TREATMENT OF SIKH GURUS ,BABURS FIGHT WITH RAJPUTS,ETC.
THERE WERE SOME MUSLIM RULERS EVEN BEFORE BABUR AND THE RAID OF TAMURLANE AND AHMED SHAH ABDALI ON INDIAN TEMPLES. ALL GOES DOWN WELL IN HISTORY.YOU KNOW THE FOOLISHNESS OF HINDUS THAT THEY GAVE THEIR PRINCESS AND FOUGHT FOR THEM.
BUT THE PLIGHT OF MUSLIM BECAME A BIG ISSUE IN JUST OVER PAST 100 YEARS AND 56 YEARS OF INDIAN INDEPENDENCE.
CAN ANYONE JUSTIFY WHY THESE MUSLIM RULERS FROM AFGANISTAN AND PAKISTAN CAME TO INDIA TO SUBJUGATE HINDUS AND THEIR COUNTRY. INDIA HAS BEEN RULED BY MUSLIMS SINCE THE CAPTULATION PRITHVIRAJ CHAUHAN OF DELHI.
SO I WOULD LIKE TO ASK ALL THE MUSLIM FORUM MEMBERS THE PLIGHT OF HINDUS UNDER MUSLIM RULE IN INDIA FOR ABOUT 800 YEARS.
AND INDIAN MUSLIMS ARE TIRED IN JUST 56 YEARS.
THATS NOT FAIR.
WHEN PAKISTAN WENT FOR TWO NATION THEORY THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN ALL MUSLIMS FROM INDIA.ATLEAST SOME POPULATION PRESSURE ON THE COUNTRY MIGHT HAVE REDUCED.
MY UNLIMITED FORSESIGHT HAS TO BE EXPANDED AS ONE FORUM MEMBERS PUTS IT.SO PLS. SHOW ME THE LIGHT.
Prashant,
The plight, as you say of Hindus was quite to the standard in a thousand year (not just 800 years) of Muslim rule in India. Hindus, held court, were miliatry Generals and worked in all professions of the society. Aurungzeb's war against the Sikhs was not about relegion, it was political, the Sikhs had backed 'Darashikoh' (Aurungzeb's brother). Aurungzeb 'got back' on all people who had backed Darashikoh, including a sister and quite some Pathan Tribes.
Now,get me right are you trying to say that if their were some 'excesses' done in the past it is all right to 'venge' that today,... do I smell a VHP activist in our midst.. so is saying what you are you are actually saying that Hindu Intellegensia is a actually running a co ordianted, vengeful, organised, Government backed agenda in India of 'Cleasnsing it of Muslims'
Parshant, that is exactly we are debating here... the 150 million muslims in India 'BELONG IN INDIA' they are the decendants of Hindus and Settlers (some for more than hundreds on years.. should not be called settlers for that matter). But yes, they have every right to be in India, as you have.
And yes you do need to expand your horizon and your be littled mentality for sure. Please next time you post turn of your 'caps' these are meant to be used when beginning a sentance ! your post reads more of like you are shouting at us !!
Peace guys
I do agree with Pracs and Prashant views but the fact remains that Muslim invaders like Sher Shah Suri and Qutbuddin Aibak, depicted as heroes in Muslim version of history, were looters and they killed thousands of people without impunity. If we are Muslims then that does not mean we have descended right from heaven or we are superiors to other religionists/races and hence we should start preaching our beliefs by force or resort to using all sort ill means to tame the unruly world of infidels.
My point is simple that if we are Muslims we should not defend bad eggs amongst us just because of our religious affiliations. We should find out a way of peaceful co-existence. A bad person is a bad person no matter to which faith he belongs to. And to me, even though I have been severely censured for my beliefs, all human beings are equal no matter what their nationality, religion or ethnicity might be. Humanity is my religion, peace is my faith.
Now the world stands divided on religious lines, itâs our duty as educated and enlightened individuals, on both sides of the divide, to find a way of reconciliation rather than highlighting the differences amongst us.
Peace and Love
Asif
Hanif,
What needs to be quite clear, is that all the invaders, the Rajas, the Kings and emperors that cam down to INDIA/PAKISTAN were all a political force, some came on their annual pilferage attackes others came to stay on and be part of that country,.. and that was the norm of the day around the world in those days,, remember colonisation (which is quite a recent think not even a hundred years ago). Parshant made quite a 'flawed' logic out of it all, trodding his path should I assume that we should start subjugating all the Christians in our country because the British - Christians did a bad job in running south ASIA when they were the Colonist.
I think History 'ear marks' characters as 'HEROS' more because of the impact that they have had on society, Mahmud Ghaznavi may have been a pluderer, but he did form a centralised Government in what is today PAKISTAN (and ended the mahem of local war lords), so the whole excercise did have a lot of good coming out of it. The temples at Somnath that he plundered and destroyed were more of centres of 'exploitation' and 'activities' we all know of. Did the Rajas and Druids of Somnath not offer Mahmud Gold and riches twice the amount of that was in Somnath ? It was a political act ! Infact Mahmud's army had its own 'Hindu' battalions
Comapre it with today and we have governments dislodging tyrants and dictators.. is that wrong ?
We as Muslims are not defending any bad eggs, we are simply saying that we have had Muslim Kings and Empires in India, and we are not going to be applogetic about it.. infact if you throw a stone at us ? we have a quite a many to throw at you too,.. how was Rana Rajit Singh treating his Muslim subjects ? How have the Dogra Rajas treated their Kashmiri subjects ? I have a whole list of where that came from..
i totally agree with ASIF
what i belived atrocities happened on both sides.we as educated individuals are not suppose to make the situation more complicated.
MY STRONG BELIEF IS THAT the local press and publishers of history books slightly skew the actual fact into their countrys favour by making some people heros and adversaries as villans.
local political parties use these communal riots to their advantage at the ballot box.There are some very orthodox people who stick to their beliefs in every country which as one members put as bad eggs.
i would like to promote peace and harmony among hindus and muslims.what has happened has happened.nothing can be done about it.lets look at the future and let there be a dove of peace flying in the air.
because as you people might have read my earlier post that i was against the division of the country into two nations.
PEACE HARMONY AND BROTHERHOOD IS MY MESSAGE
I didnt want to hurt any muslim brothers feeling.i respect their religion and nation.
NO HARD FEELINGS
infact i had some very good muslim friends in kenya some of them are
SAMEER AHMED BHATTI (SAM STUDD)
MOHAMMED SOHAIL BHATTI
There you go with peace and harmony and then 'against the two countries being divided up'... lay off man, stop crying hoarse over what happened 60 years ago.
Nice to see that you have changed your ideology in a matter of a post,..!!
Nice to know we stand anywhere to protect our ideology
i know my stand very well dear members.
can u guide me upon the upcomming visit of chinese president in india.times of india reported that
They are putting up a claim upon whole of arunachal pradesh as their own territory
look from a prespective of an indian national
china is an aggressor and is claiming indian territory
and from chinese prospective
india is having a part of chinese land
the same case goes for dalai lama.
india puts them in the category of refugees and
china has outlawed them
so who is right?
racial attacks upon asians happen in britain who is to blame . the british public.after terror alert from us of alkaida who is to blame whole of afganistan and tribal provinces of pakistan who supports him.
so who is right or who is wrong.tell me according to western and indian media alkaida and taliban is supported by afganistan and some tribal provinces of pakistan . i cant say that the whole afganistan nation or its people are bad.
Have u noticed in this tread 70-80 percent members have critised india and its position upon muslims.
i as true indian national am trying to justify indian viewpoint which i see correct and condemn which i belive is wrong.
moreover i am towards minimising the differences between hindus and muslims .thats why i wrote about peace and harmony.
Well Parshant I am unable to understand what you exactly tried to convey in this post of yours.
what i am trying to convey that local press confuses the general public about the actual fact.Last post is in the support of my views in earlier post that press and media plays a very important part in formation of general view of public .the same news reported by pakistani media and indian media might lead to different conclusions.then local political parties misuse these information in their favour .then history book also skew some facts into their own countrys favour.e.g.the first war of indian independence of 1857 was started in meerut according to indian history books but british historians put it as a sepoy mutiny.
i guess now u got me right.
AOA!
As for as i think..partition was not neccessary for PROSPERITY of the people in this region..Imagine what we could get if not separated?? We could be the SUPERPOWER at this time..but you know "GORA SAHAB" was not a SILLY GUY..they separated us, our hearts, our land and our MINDS..they created a CONSTANT dispute between us..and when we were bissy in killing each other and WE ARE BISSY IN KILLING EACH OTHER..they are eating fruits of their long term evil PLANS..there are five groups still working for GORA SAHAB and ruling our minds, using our emotions..
1. Hindu Extremists in India
2. Mullas in Pakistan
3. Indian Army
4. Pak Army
5. Fudalz
i mean these five are the groups on which 70 to 80% of our resources are being spent. Indian and Pak army dont want to solve the Kashmir dispute because this is the only reason for which they are getting that much money from their nations.Hindu extremists in india are proving that the partition was the right dicision(by killing muslims).Mullas in Pakistan are playing the same role as Shev seena and hindu pareshad are playing in india. The last group Fudalz are DOING NOTHING AND GETTING A LOT..Fudalz are working to implement ILLETRACY and POVERTY.
So their are following Jobs for what GORAZ employed different people.
1. Nafrat Phelao GRDANAIN KATO >> Mulla in PK and HINDU EXTREMISTS IN INDIA
2. KABHI MILNAY MT DENA AUR KHATAY HI REHNA>> Pak and Indian Army
3. Jhallat aur Ghurbat aam karo >> Fudalz (JAGEERDAR SAHIBAN)
So everybody is doing his job well EXCEPT of PAKI AND HINDI NATIONS.
HINDU'Z AND MUSLIMS USED TO LIVE THERE FOR CENTURIES..So why was it now impossible to live together??HAM LOG SHEKHON KA DUBAI AABAD KAR SAKTAY HAIN SAATH MIL KAR TO APNA PAKINDIA KEON NHE AABAD KAR SAKTAY?? KEON NAHI KEON NAHI KEON NAHI?? PETRIOTISM KIA IS KA NAAM HAY KAY HM ASIANS AIK DOOSRAY KI GARDANAIN KATAIN AUR WHAN EUROPE KI NATIONS HMARI HNSI URDAIN?? HMAY SMJHNA HOGA KAY AIK DOOSRAY KAY MUJRIM HAM NAHI BLKAY HM DONO KA AIK HI MUJRIM HAY AUR WO HAY "GORA SAHAB"...
SHARAM KI BAAT HAY KAY HM NAY AIK DOOSRAY KO MARNAY KAY LEEYAY HI ATOM BOMBS BNA LEEYA HAIN..SOCHO AGR HMARAY BEECH YE MSLAY NA HOTAY TO AMERICA SMAIT KOI MAI KA LAAL HMARI TRF NHE DEKH SAKTA THA..
KAB TAK AIK DOOSRAY KO NEECHA DEKHANAY KI KOSHISH MAY NEECHAY HI NEECHAY JATAY RAHO GAY??KAB SOCHO GAY APNA??APNI NEXT GENERATIONS KO NAFRAT AUR "MSLA E KASHMIR" KAY SIWA KUCH AUR BHI DENA HAY KAY NAHI??
JAGO JAGO JAGO BHAI JAG JAOW AB...
BEYOND_INSTINCTS
THE REAL PATRIOT..
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by prashant</i>
<br />i know my stand very well dear members.
can u guide me upon the upcomming visit of chinse pm in india.times of india reported that
They are putting up a claim upon whole of arunachal pradesh as their own territory
look from a prospective of an indian national
china is an aggressor and is claiming indian territory
and from chinese prospective
india is having a part of chinese land
the same case goes for dalai lama.
india puts them in the category of refugees and
china has outlawed them
so who is right?
racial attacks upon asians happen in britain who is to blame . the british public.after terror alert from us of alkaida who is to blame whole of afganistan and tribal provinces of pakistan who supports him.
so who is right or who is wrong.tell me according to western and indian media alkaida and taliban is supported by afganistan and some tribal provinces of pakistan . i cant say that the whole afganistan nation or its people are bad.
Have u noticed in this tread 70-80 percent members have critised india and its position upon muslims.
i as true indian national am trying to justify indian viewpoint which i see correct and condemn which i belive is wrong.
moreover i am towards minimising the differences between hindus and muslims .thats why i wrote about peace and harmony.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Prashant, you need to have a prespective and perhaps as you have said yourself, need to follow media other than your Indian media.
Having said that, I fail to understand what your giberish has to do with this topic.!!