Accountancy Forum

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Madeeha,

ICAP has not placed any ban on girls to do ca. So many girls have become the qualified member of the institute. Any firm's / practicing member's plocies depict their/his mind set and not of the institute, in my humble view.

So many good firms including big 4 intake girls and they do not have banned their entry to the profession.

Regards,

Dear
Circumstances has been changed...because of "Roshan Khayali" policy of Musharraf.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by madeeha
 why icap put ban on girls for studying ca because firms don't take them because they are girls.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am really surprisedâ¦it is sex discrimination. Boys and girls should be given equal opportunities toward their jobs

Madeeha,

You have not mentioned the name of the firm which has refused to intake gals.

I dont appreciate any bans over gals to improve their knowledge and I am 100% in favor of gals to work in various professions to boost up the economy. However, there are certain problems with having gals in majority in the professional firms. The work schedule is very hectic in such firms and requires more than needed time and efforts input. (We can criticise the working schedules and hectic situation/late sittings at some other time but these are ground realities which are not going to change very soon). However, I believe gals can put in all professional efforts and knowledge which could be expected from lads normally.

I just explain you the reason of preference of lads over gals by the CA firms. This is mainly very much of general nature. Lads are considered to be more easily placeable and moveable than gals specifically on long distanced clients and out of station assignments. Further, the services of lads could be used till late nights and they normally dont much hesitate to sit long hours in the totally empty buildings/client offices to finalize their tasks. Further, dont mind but I have personally experienced that female students are prone to so much casual leaves, which I could never understand are why so much compulsory to manage their family affairs.

Just take an example of a firm which has 85 percent of its clients located at far off areas or at out stations. It would be very much dificult for such a firm to accomodate gals in substantial number.

One thing must also be noticed that except for the bigger firms, the small and medium practices normally have limited seats for registration of students and they dont have relaxed choices of selecting a mix of lads and gals to justify an ideal indiscrimination. If some firm has 15 seats only and it has to register 15 students, the quantum of gals would not be more than one or two due to some limitations stated above.

In my view, there is a need for gals to improve their image in the eyes of such firms. Yes, of course I know there are so many gals who are working on top seats in profession and are very good with their work. Still, if we wanna be professional then we must have to little bit change our behaviours. Girls should be somewhat more confident and vibrant and un-neceaasry casual leaves are never appreciated by firms. Confidence does not mean misbehaving or being bold. It is only confidence to accept challenges and work hard.

I know you will get some chance in some good firm. I personally accept that a bigger firm contributes a lot in personnel development. Still, the craze for only big 4 creates mental disturbance and hoplessness (in case of non-selection) in students. You must try for all well known firms. I think you are at Islamabad. You must try the followings

-AFF
-KPMG
-FRSH
-Delloite
-Anjum Asim
-Riaz Ahmad
-BDO Ibrahim
-Khalid Majeed

I hope you will succeed getting seat in any of these firms.

Best regards,

Kamran.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Dear
Circumstances has been changed...because of "Roshan Khayali" policy of Musharraf<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Absolutly True INDEED......

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I am really surprisedâ¦it is sex discrimination. Boys and girls should be given equal opportunities toward their jobs<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't agree with this girls should sit in home their is no need for them to come to fields like CA or ACCA (Yeh Sinf-e-Nazuk) kay bas ka roog nahi hay......further how can a girl supposed to study for 6 to 7 years(What will happen to merrage Plans "Laugh Out Loud" I am Affraid with the future of CA or ACCA Girls) that is "AZDAWAJI FUTURE".......

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">knowledge and I am 100% in favor of gals to work in various professions to boost up the economy<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What economy you are talking about dear......Girls have to sit at home they are not supposed to earn money the "NAN-NAFQA(Mantenance Expense)" of girls is the resonsibility of MAN.......

Dear KamranACA sahib could you tell me about late sittings in Firms what girls will do with this is how they cope with this and if girls will off their duty at 5 pm then it will be SEX DISCRIMINATION aginst Man....isn't it.....

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In my view, there is a need for gals to improve their image in the eyes of such firms<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
this is insult of girls by the way what do you mean by this.......

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Further, dont mind but I have personally experienced that female students are prone to so much casual leaves, which I could never understand are why so much compulsory to manage their family affairs.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

ISSHI LIAY ALLAH(S.W.T) NAY KAHA HAY KAY AUORAT KA ASAL MAQAM CHAR DEWWARI HAY.....be enlightned people have srong reservations init..

I am not indulging in the debate that what is the right place for a girl.

Articles, I think, is a tough experience, and for girls situation is tougher. But I have personally seen girls doing articles, effectively managing late sittings and out station assignments. At the same time, they are, to some extent, accommodated by the management. However, reluctance to induct female students is there in quite some firms, and there are reason for that as explained by Kamran. If a female student wants to do articles, many firms are willing to recruit them. Situation may be tough but the things can be managed as 100s of such examples are there.

girls don't have to go outstation...
they never get harsh bisti from seniors/management
they are not forced for late sittings

as result they get more time to study...and less tension than boys...

its all discrimination against boys....

Keeping in view your system, such things should never be considered as discrimination against boys. Such steps to accommodate female students should be commended.

However, the situation you mentioned may not always be the case.

Dears,

I personally do not like to discuss girls on the basis of sex differentiation with males. They are human beings and as such have full rights in all societies of the world (except Talibaan Society). I have been witness of some girls who did CA and were and are the most competent in their professional capacity. They have sacrificed even more than boys in this field.

I dont know what Maulvies have ideas about the role of females in an Islamic society. But I know one thing. When Pakistan was founded, no apparently known Maulvi was with Quaid-e-Azam. The Maulvies like Mr. Fazal-ur-Rehman, his father (Mr. Mufti Mahmood) and like Mr. Abu-al-Kalam Azad (and many more) have used indicent language about Mr. Jinnah. I understand that such language is commonly used in politics. Further, as per their agenda/idealogy, the basis for making Pakistan might not be very sound. It may be their opinion. But one thing is very much important and apparent. So many brothers may not like this but it is a reality. Any one is invited to check the history.

This is

Pakistan was not declared to be a Mullah state. Quid-e-Azam said, "Ohh the people of Pakistan, we have made you (by founding Pakistan) to get rid of British, Hindus and Mullahs".

So the people who came along Mr. Jinnah were never of the concept of Mullahism or Talibanism. So many of the Maulvies and their HAM KHAYAL group did not leave India just becoz they knew Mr. Jinnah has to establish a secular, modernized and progressive democratic islamic state where rigid minded Maulvies will not be given much importance. These strict, rigid minded people were never wanted by Pakistan at the time of Mr. Jinnah and they always opposed Pakistan. One can see the history.

I dont have to go into details and bother to reply the expected posts on this thread from such people, becoz every one knows what has ever happened.

So, this Pakistan has to be modernised and open minded. If some one does not like this, he should know that this country was made on these basis and this opnness of minds was ever desired here in Pakistan. Now he should think about his residential preferences. Pakistan is not going to be changed by the empowerment of Maulvies becoz Maulvies cant even unite their ownselves. Pakistan's foundation was not based upon Mullahism. This is not something newly introduced by Musharraf. It is what Mr. Jinnah wished our Pakistan to be.

However, being muslims as well, Pakistani girls should take care of their responsibilities as muslims. There dresses and behaviours should not just be a picture of western life. We have our own heritage and traditions and we can wear everything which appears to be respectable for us. I have already clarified that VEILS have never been made compulsory in Islam. I have very strong arguments in support of my statement. Boys should offer due respect to girls as we have for our sisters and cousins becoz all such girls are first of all Pakistanies and then muslims and being so are respectable for us. This does not make any sex discrimination. Respect always begets respect.

Our Ulemas, were united at Muthidda Majlis-e-Amal. Mr. Sami-ul-Haq last night said that efectively this Majlis has been dissolved. I have never seen such a BAY AMAL MAJLIS which cant even unite on their own issues. Same Majlis is agitating in all provinces for the issue of Musharraf's uniform and Chief Justice of Pakistan. But this Majlis did not do so in Balochistan becoz at Balochistan they have their own government and any agitation will create problems for them. I bet this Musharraf, if gives them (even powerless) government in whole of Pakistan, they will all be in support of Musharraf and his policies and will criticise all other political parties.

Anyways, this is not the topic of this thread.

In my view CA articles are quite difficult for girlz. Still, marriage or other issues are their personal affairs and we should not poke our nose into their personal lives. What gives us right to do so and comment in this style. They may get married in early or later stage of their life. One should not be harmed by the acts of others in their personal life sphere.

When I said that there is a need for gals to improve their image in the eyes of such firms, I meant that they should take the work seriously. They should avail lesser casual leaves and observe the timings strictly etc. This has nothing to do with anything else. It does not disgrace any one, in my view.

Yes, any girl who accepts the challenge and feels that she can do it, should do CA. And females should enhance their education and work shoulder to shoulder with men in Pakistan. This is what Mr. Jinnah and Miss Fatima Jinnah actually did. There is a big role of that female in establishing the foundation of Pakistan. We should not forget it. If some rigid mind feels it to be odd or against his Islam, he should study the history and basis of establishment of Pakistan and should reconsider his elders decision to get into Pakistan along with Mr. Jinnah.

Best regards,

Kamran.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 There is a big role of that female in establishing the foundation of Pakistan. We should not forget it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sir, don't repeat these GHISI PITI things which we are repeatedly taught from grade one to our final year. And what was the role of women in making of Pakistan??

Majority of members, I hope, are too mature to be obscured by role of Maulvis, so I think we didn't need to waste time discussing them.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
However, being muslims as well, Pakistani girls should take care of their responsibilities as muslims. There dresses and behaviours should not just be a picture of western life. We have our own heritage and traditions and we can wear everything which appears to be respectable for us.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Everybody has his/her own perception of this, the dresses and behaviors you referred to be as unislamic may not be so in manys opinion.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 

So many of the Maulvies and their HAM KHAYAL group did not leave India just becoz they knew Mr. Jinnah has to establish a secular, modernized and progressive democratic islamic state where rigid minded Maulvies will not be given much importance. These strict, rigid minded people were never wanted by Pakistan at the time of Mr. Jinnah and they always opposed Pakistan. One can see the history.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Looking at the history is another matter, but if Quaid was of this opinion then what was the logic in making Pakistan.

After composing such posts I often think these only mean to disagree. And, I had a never ending and inconclusive discussion with Pracs on similar issue. I never want myself to get indulged in such discussion, but am really irritated by some common but false perceptions majority of us have.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
I dont have to go into details and bother to reply the expected posts on this thread from such people, becoz every one knows what has ever happened.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I hope I was not the one pointed out.

Shoaib

In short there is hardly a firm having equal preference for both sex. It is true that firms prefered male students over female because females cant provide the firms what male can. For example Late Sittings, Out station audits, free interactions with cliets, hard work in exploitation etc.

Dear Shoaib,

If we get into debate that who made Pakistan then there come the names of millions who have sacrificed so much that we cannot even imagine. But of course, all over the world, the main credit (bad as well as good) goes to the leaders. Just like Altaf is sitting at UK and all what has been done at Karachi is labelled on him. You must also know that how bravely our common citizens and army NAAIKs sacrificed their lives in the war of 1965 but NISHAN-E-HAIDER was given to a few persons. That's why I conclude that credit has to be given to Mr. Jinnah and his fellows specially his sister.

However, if some one has adverse views about the creation of Pakistan then these all facts do not matter him at all. Then a new debate could be started which of course is not desired at the moment.

Infact if you see my message, I was not commenting on the role of women in the creation of Pakistan. I was basically discusisng the role of Fatima Jinnah only. However, I still believe that the role of females cannot be ignored. Males eventually do the things which are desired by their females. Females take the edge of being mothers of all males and as such, normally, have influence on one's brought up and mindset.

As far as Maulvies are concerned, I know a reasonable population knows them well. Still, every one when wants to save his skin from his ill-doings (like Zia-ul-Haq) hides his head in the laps of Ulemas. It's not bad if some one wants to make his deeds better. But first of all every Maulvi is not Alam and capable of doing so. Further, this should not happen only for political intents as most of the people do now-a-days.

You were asking the logic of Quaid to make Pakistan, if he did not want it to be a rigid Maulvi state. I think I have mentioned it in previous message as

"So many of the Maulvies and their HAM KHAYAL group did not leave India just becoz they knew Mr. Jinnah has to establish a secular, modernized and progressive democratic islamic state where rigid minded Maulvies will not be given much importance."

The reply to your query was already embedded in the lines quoted by you. Two nations idealogy was based upon the conflicting principles and traditions of Hindu and Muslim societies. Still, it has nothing to do with rigidity. The matters of importance were of differences in worship places, basic difference of Tauheed and Shirak, sacrificing of cow, eating of meat and other conflicting festivals etc. These were the problems of common men (muslims) who were being crushed on account of such differences. The purpose and logic to make Pakistan was to provide a place to muslims where every common man/woman either muslim or non-muslim can live with independence. Independence meant Independence. Where no one will attack on the other on the basis of religion, caste and other such matters. The basic theme was to provide INDEPENDENCE. Could this be acheived by providing power to rigid Maulvies? Our true Ulemas could not so far reach consensus on the basic issues. We are every year fighting on the matter of seeing HILAL-E-EID after Ramzan. This is just one example. We could not achieve consensus on so many issues (where it is logically required) after the lapse of 60 years almost. What other simple rigid Maulvies would be up to in this scenrio. Just concentrate on this question and you will definitely find reply to your query.

Dear Shoaib,

This might not appear logical to any one else but in my view every society has its own norms. Religions do affect the beliefs and a little bit to norms but the basics of norms (which dont collide with the religion) remain as it is. My views are solely my views and if you or any body else do not agree with them, it makes no difference for me. Likewise if I dont agree with your views it again dont make any difference to you.

Still, in my view, VEIL is not made compulsory by the Holy Quran. This is my view. Further, our females (I mean muslim ones) should take care to maintain the norms of our society which are of course conceptually Islam influenced and should be influenced as such becoz majority of this country is Muslim. For those who are non-muslims, following of the laws of this country is necessary which do not allow for lewdness.

Basically, we need to realize our responsibilities as citizens of this country and we should not be extremely narrow minded for the females.

This is what I want to convey.

Best regards,

Kamran.

One more point.

I did not referred the western dresses in my earlier post. You have mistakenly understood it as such. In fact I commented on western life style and not on dresses. So many of western dresses are very mature looking and respectable. But western life as a whole is not so respectable as per norms of our society. Just for example laying down on benches on beaches by females without any dress is western life and not the western dress. Still, if people have different perceptions and those are within the laws of Pakistan, I dont have any objection on them.

There was a thin line which has been, i think, messed up.

Regards,

After composing such posts, I, always, have to clarity that Alhamdolilah I am a proud Pakistani, and never among those who oppose its making.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kamran
 
If we get into debate that who made Pakistan then there come the names of millions who have sacrificed so much that we cannot even imagine.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wow! I would be glad if you can told me who were the millions who sacrificed their lives for making of Pakistan.

Liberation of sub-continent from colonial rulers was not the result of any strugle because it was a sort of volunteer act. Strugle of Quaid-e-Azam resulted in protection of rights of Muslims. And a think there was no single woman who had a significant role in this. The elite BAIGMAT of that time where given the credit, Fatima Jinah being not the only one. If you talk about the indirect role then they have influence on every walk of life.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kamran
 So many of the Maulvies and their HAM KHAYAL group did not leave India just becoz they knew Mr. Jinnah has to establish a secular, modernized and progressive democratic islamic state where rigid minded Maulvies will not be given much importance
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now you are distorting history, maulvies were not with Quaid very right, but majority of them migrated to Pakistan. Abu Kalam Azad, do was a maulvi look, was never a maulvi.

The example in this reagrd is of Maulana Madoodi, who opposed creation of Pakistan. But if you look at his opinion, it will sound logical.

A lot I have said on this issue. For this purpose you have to take some time to go through the thread created by Pracs "HAVE WE BETRAYED MUSLIMS IN INDIA"

The link is

http//www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=1151

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