Hi dears,
How is Anjum Asim Shahid Rehman in lahore?
Further,What do you advise about income estimation department
to join in AASR lhr,Which one is better of income estimation,
audit or tax to join in start of articles?
Please reply
Regards
Dear,
AASR is good enough to be joined at Lahore.
Income estimation is not much of fun. Its sick students have met me and were totally fed-up. Infact Income Estimation is a thrill, but the estimation of students never reaps till the end in its true sense and so much is changed for so many reasons which normally discourages the new immature students and they feel just fed-up of this fruitless non-innovative exercise.
I always recommend AUDIT for students.
However, now trainning regulations issued by ICAP have stipulated so much for firms and now hopefully you guys will get better trainning oppurtunities.
Best regards,
Kamran.
There canât be any comparison between Income estimation and audit, and the way this income estimation department is working in various firms including one mentioned here has made it totally worse. A student, if left on his own choice, should advisedly go for audit.
I hope Kamran that new training regulations stipulated by ICAP bring some better working opportunity for students. Time sheets are to be uploaded on ICAP's web on regular basis. Generally, students consider these time sheets as an additional burden on them. However, I think if these time sheets if properly serve the purpose for which they are devised can prove to be quite beneficial for students. As some of the deep concerns of students including inter-departmental shuffling and record of overtime may be removed.
In most of firms a student keeps on working in a single department for almost all of his training period. And those who start with other departments than audit remain most unlucky.
In addition to this, a student has normally work for additional leaves he has availed after the completion of his training period. So unjust it is that at many places the excess leaves are not adjusted against over time. Even worse is that some students are compelled to work after completion of their training period and are illegitimately black mailed for non issuance of training completion certificate if they don't complete any designated assignment.
I wish that the new concept of time sheets can lessen the myseries of students but I'm not very hopeful.
Regards
Shoaib
Shoaib,
I hope things will get better with time.
It's very crual if some one is not relieved after completion of his articles unless he is paid for it and also if he consents to work so. However, normally students are encourged to complete their in hand jobs before leaving the firm and it is not a bad idea becoz they know much better about what they have done in any specific job. In my view the firms should do it with the sweet will of students, if it is inevitable, and students must be paid as professional employees as per their caliber. The important thing is the will of students to work.
Regards,
Kamran.
Paying remuneration equal to professional is something very rarely seen in this case. And who would consent to work after four or five years of exploitation. Any sort of assignment can be done with out the single individual no matter how crucial his role had been. Firms continue to work in the absence of an actively involved partner of manager.
Your firm may give you an objection letter instead of an NOC, and it may be seen when students like to transfer without the will of the firm's management. Even worse, you could be given a training completion certificate with an objection. The authority to terminate is also there, a couple of examples are there when articles were terminated without a very major reason. Given these circumstances, a student is left with no choice except getting exploited
Dear,
There had been cases of denying to give NOCs which were attended by ICAP very well. Can u plz let me know of any case of Objection Certificate? Can you give the reference of any section of Chartered Accountants Ordinance or Bye laws providing for the possibility of Objection Certificate? If by any means it has to happen, it will never be easier. In all such cases ICAP intervenes and hears both parties and then give the decision. It's ICAP's decision which prevails. It would be addition to my knowledge if you prove ur statement as I required above.
Had there been a single case in the history of Pakistan where any objection has been added in the period completion certificate? Would any employer ask for a copy of period completion certficate when you apply for a job with full or partial qualification? Practically speaking it is for the record of ICAP and is not normally added to the CVs and application documents of a qualified professional.
Termination cannot be done so easily. ICAP always intervenes and we have seen instances of justice. It is not that easier.
Student principal relationship is based upon an agreement and if it is breached, this agreement can be terminated. However, it is not that easier Shoaib. Note my words and tell me a single case where it had happen in innocent student's case. One of my student got exam leaves and left Pakistan for a job in UAE without informing me. Even then I did not terminate the trainning agreement. Rather I obtained from him an application for NOC through mail and issued him NOC instead of terminating his contract. It was an easier solution for me.
I wonder of which world you are talking. Had I not completed articleship from Pakistan. I wonder how students persume such ideas.
Firms should never have any interest in retaining any of students without his will. As far as work is concerned I had ever been of opinion that work makes a professional gold. And whoever feels the work as burden on his-self never finds the targets so easily. I can never call it exploitation. In my view, we join firms to learn and to get the greater / tougher and enormous oppurtunities to learn and we should look on them as a blessing. Note my words. You will recall these words in your life on various occussions. I have seen guys who were qualified, article completed, on fresh jobs with big tags but who were learning on-job works from their clerks. I remember a man who is now financial controller of a biggest insurance concern. When he came to his first job (in some other company), he was learning how to account for store consumption vouchers with reference to cost centers for monthly accounts purposes from clerks. Of course this did not make him worst than a clerk but it was quite disgracing.
I once before said that the profession is mafia. It is not so easy to do every thing as annoyed young generation with own will and methodology. MAUJ HAI DARYA MAIN AUR BAIROON-E-DARYA KUCH NAHI. I have seen instances where people took NOCs and then remained much behind than their targets. They could have been much better in their original position, had they been developed some acceptability. However, I am not talking about rare cases.
Hope you can understand.
Best regards,
Kamran.
Interesting post Kamran. I will require some time to get the information regarding objection certificate and completion certificate with objection. I have not seen these, however, the information I got came from some reliable resources. I hope that I am wrong; otherwise no body will leave with any logics to justify CA firms.
Another important point in your post is this mysterious word "LEARNING". I will come back to the point shortly when I have some free time. Some points immensely need to be clarified.
Regards.
Dear,
I just wanted to convey the message of acceptability. In every case there remains a difference between the independent and the dependent. At all stages, a man could be analysed as independent and dependent simultaneously.
Students should be focussed on their goals instead of having worries about what can happen. You know if we just concentrate on what can happen, then we will do nothing in our life. Hope is vital for moving ahead. Beleive you me in no case any firm kicks its innocent student. Firms are selling man hours, they are suppliers of professionals' time and their cost mainly represent the time of students and professionals they devote to an assignment. Accordingly they earn against the sale of time. Time which represents the man hours.
Firms cannot, therefore, do it without men. I know hard working, efficient, easy going and obedient students are liked by every one. No one calls or makes a student to join a firm forcibly. It is with mutual consent. If you feel it totally a valid right of a student to terminate the contract at any time, if he dont feel the environment expedient for him. Then it must also be the right of the principal to do so. Here you must note a point. What would be the ratio of the students taking NOCs and changing firms against the ratio of principals kicking out their students. I think you will have to adjoin so many zeros after the decimal point to define this ratio (on principal's side).
I have also been hearing of Objection Certificate when I was a student. However, I never had seen any such case in last 13 years not any such case has ever been reported in any newspaper, pakistan accountant and ICAP Newsletter. Yes there had been one or two cases of contract termination by principals which were intervened by ICAP and justice was done. Though not apparently seen in CA Ordinance or Bye Laws, still if there has been any option to modify the NOC certificate's format given in BYE LAWS, even then no such case has so far been witnessed by me. If this is a reality then why a normal innocent student should always have worries of such nature. It is not understandable.
As far as Learning is concerned, I am very much clear on it. In this matter, my soul pertains to old school of thought and I always remember the relationship defined by PROPHET P.B.U.H between USTAAD and SHAAGIRD and I also cannot forget the reflections from Hazrat Ali Karamallah Wajho. Further, I feel that learning is the sole responsibility of a student. Teacher / senior / principal (or by whatever name we call it) has the responsibility of teaching and guiding either directly or indirectly or through other sources. Learning cannot adopt any other meaning with the passage of time. Similarly, guidance can also not take any other shape, whatever words we use for it. It has nothing to do with jugglery of words. It is a live reality.
This is a time of learning, accepting and following for you. You cannot take a lead at this moment. This is what a student should do.
Best regards,
Kamran
By getting through your post one thing comes to my mind is that difference of opinions by virtue of different positions will remain. You sound like very effectively conveying the managementâs point of view.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
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Students should be focussed on their goals instead of having worries about what can happen. You know if we just concentrate on what can happen, then we will do nothing in our life. Hope is vital for moving ahead. Beleive you me in no case any firm kicks its innocent student. Firms are selling man hours, they are suppliers of professionals' time and their cost mainly represent the time of students and professionals they devote to an assignment. Accordingly they earn against the sale of time. Time which represents the man hours.
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Definitely the things I mentioned does not mean to distract one of his goals or living with the fear of what can happen. I just tried to highlight some injustice that can take place or does take place is CA firms.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
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Here you must note a point. What would be the ratio of the students taking NOCs and changing firms against the ratio of principals kicking out their students.
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This was new for me to know that a student takes the NOC and when the management does the same it means kicking out the students. Shun't same words be used for both occasions
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
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I have also been hearing of Objection Certificate when I was a student. However, I never had seen any such case in last 13 years not any such case has ever been reported in any newspaper, pakistan accountant and ICAP Newsletter. Yes there had been one or two cases of contract termination by principals which were intervened by ICAP and justice was done. Though not apparently seen in CA Ordinance or Bye Laws, still if there has been any option to modify the NOC certificate's format given in BYE LAWS, even then no such case has so far been witnessed by me. If this is a reality then why a normal innocent student should always have worries of such nature. It is not understandable
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I don't know how one can justify the case of Objection Certificate. And, I think you must have your own definition of innocence that is who is considered innocent by the management. And he or she might be the one who never dares to speak anything in front of the management.
Very right you are as indulging in a debate with someone older in age is a taboo in our society and can be easily considered badtamizi.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
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my soul pertains to old school of thought and I always remember the relationship defined by PROPHET P.B.U.H between USTAAD and SHAAGIRD and I also cannot forget the reflections from Hazrat Ali Karamallah Wajho. Further, I feel that learning is the sole responsibility of a student. Teacher / senior / principal (or by whatever name we call it) has the responsibility of teaching and guiding either directly or indirectly or through other sources. Learning cannot adopt any other meaning with the passage of time. Similarly, guidance can also not take any other shape, whatever words we use for it. It has nothing to do with jugglery of words. It is a live reality.
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I totally disagree in this regard. This is my personal view no matter right or wrong. As per my view the relation of USTAAD and SHAGIRD does not exist in CA firms.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
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This is a time of learning, accepting and following for you. You cannot take a lead at this moment. This is what a student should do.
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Its never the matter of taking the lead. What is right or wrong does not change when you are among the management or a student. And I think one should not follow and accept what is not right and just.
Kamran Sb I always fear while saying such things because people may easily mind and take things personal but I am sure you are not among those so I sometimes take the opportunity of being blunt while putting forward my point.
Regards
Shoaib
Dear Shoaib,
I always liked your style of arguing that's why I once advised you to remain in profession after completing the articles. Further, argument and view point does not make the things to be taken personally. It's a professional debate you know. Therefore, I dont feel any one's viewpoint personally.
As far as your above post is concerned, it has been clarified that on one facet we need not to discuss any more and that is the due respect for principals/seniors by the students in the CA firms. Still, I would just like to give my viewpoint for those who read this message.
I told you that regarding this area, I pertain to old school of thought. I never said that seniors should not respect the students. Rather, my view point is that the respect of seniors is much more due on students than the expected reciprocal respect they await from the seniors. And yes, they should be "the one who never dares to speak anything in front of the management" in so far this "anything" surrounds unjustified immature ideas of those brains who are at the very first step of practical life and in so many cases who cannot even think and decide about their own good and bad.
Setting targets, getting inspiration, idealising some positive and successfull personalities and following what is asked for are normal features of a student's life. No one is typically that much Jesus in his capabilities in the childhood / boyhood that he denies this principle. Youngers have ever been dependent on elders and this the nature's rule. This is the universal truth which is not going to be changed merely if I argue in its favor or you argue against it.
I just advise the general readers who are students at the moment that they can achieve what they aim, largely, if they develope acceptability for what they are asked for, accept the challenges during training period becoz this will never come back, work that much hard both on practice as well as on study as much they can, never stick to normal routine clients if they are given a choice and always try to do something new, different and generally considered hard, and dont develope a hidden or expressed thought inside that they have more knowledge and expertise than their principals or managers irrespective if they might have on some areas.
Dear Shoaib,
When a student takes NOC, its his own will that is consented by the principal. This happens in extremely substantial majority of the cases where NOC is given. No student, how much he is efficient and tees maar khan, is that much important for a firm that can caus ethe principal to deny him to give the NOC. {If in some cases things had ever happened to the contrary, I dont consider the act of principal justified.} Since it is very casual and as per the will of a student thats why I call it taking NOC.
However, when I used the words Kicking out some one, these were to point out the cases, if any, where NOCs are given against the will of the student. This should not happen except in cases of extreme misconduct (to which you may call TABOO or BADTAMEEZI). If it happens without a reason, I dont claim it a justified act.
And yes, none of the above view point of mine has been developed or changed after completion of my articles. I since the very outset had have same idealogy regarding the attitude of a student and a firm.
Notwithstanding the above, you have not so far produced any example of termination of contract by the principal (where ICAP has not intervened or where it was done without student's will) or any case of Objection Crtificate, to enhance my knowledge. I am still waiting for it.
I once again say to conclude this post that
MAUJ HAI DARYA MAIN AUR BAIROON-E-DARYA KUCH NAHI
Hoping to have its impact on some of the readers, only in their own future's interest.
Otherwise, Kamran is going to lose nothing, you know.
Bets regards,
Kamran.
Dear Kamran,
You started with a little praise of my stlyle of argument, so very effectively you draw my frame of mind in your favor at the outset of the post by putting me in the seventh heaven. (I never am trying to that this was a diplomatic effort to persuade). However, after that you put forward your point in the best possible way. Having a point of view, may be right or wrong, is something else, but the art of very effectively translating your thoughts into words that leaves the reader with a very little margin to disagree is a quality of a few. Another thing which I will like to clarify is this is not for the sake of a mere argument, and you need not to be explained the difference between an argument for the sake of argument and healthy discussion.
Coming to the point, even if I do have some differences, I would say this is the best advice for students starting or doing articleship, or in other walk of life are in a similar position.
I have to agree that I may not have similar abilities (as yours) of giving words to my thoughts in such a pursuasive manner. Furthermore, I am not at par with you while discussing such things due to the difference in our experience, qualification and maturity. However, at the same time this difference should not stop me from expressing my view point.
I started with saying that you don't leave others with a big margin to disagree, and in respect of this very thread it seems that you are advising to BE GOOD, and I am arguing for the contrary. Also, if such discussion are meant for new comers in the field my arguments completely loose weight in front of yours. One things has been clarified that we belong to two different extremes in this case and complete reconcilitation of views may never be possible. However, there may be something which the other can be made to accept by means of logical argument.
Enough of TAMHEED and circumlocation is there, and I might sound digressing from the main idea. So, I jump to the main idea
Your opinion SUBMIT TO NORMS
I say CHALLENGE THE NORMS. (Of course, not merely challenging due to the sake of challenging, there got to be some reasons.)
Your opinion BE HUMBLE
I say BE BOLD; I never mean that one should unabashedly keep on repeating one's immature and illogical reasoning. (I may sound doing the same here)
Your opinion SENIORS SHOULD BE TREATED WITH UTMOST RESPECT.
My opinion THEY ARE JUST COLLEGUES. I mean it should not always be the case that it got to be always the junior who pick up the file and give it to senior no matter that picking up the file himself required half the effort by the senior. Stewpid prestige that comes into play should never be the case.
You definiton of RESPECT seems conventional
I count on defining respect as something that is totally independent of one's age and position. Kids are to be respected as are the people of old age. It is something that lies in the heart and not merely displayed by one's behaviour. I can swear that I have more respect for a lot of people than others, however, many other very effectively potrays themselves as much more respecting.
You say that students are immature, illogical so they should follow the things as they are.
Established rules are definitely to be followed as they are evolved after much of experience and a new comer having no experience can never be allowed to challenge them. However, students having lived more than one third of thier lives, having got the pre-requiste knowledge and after gaining some experience can bring thier creativity into play. There are much cases when one working at a lower position can handle the task better than his senior. Presence of mentally incompetent person at managerial level is quite a common phenomena in our society.
It is not the case that I totally disagree with your opinion, there is much may be most of what you said that I have to agree. Developing acceptibility for the assigned tasks, although not easily done as said, may be the key to success and the best of advices for a student. A studnet may be easily disillusioned by the fact that he is better than his seniors. And a slightest over assessment of oneself by one may make him appear totally absurd in front of others.
Coming to the second part of your post, Kamran, it would have been much easier for me if we can explain our viewpoint with some real life examples. To avoid my post getting extra lengthy and boring I will come to some of the points afterwards.
Regards
Shoaib
Dear Shoaib,
It had never been an objective to send some one's mind on seventh sky or eslewhere. I only praise some one, if such praise is justified. Further, telling you for forecasting some capabilities to grow up in the profession is not a big deal at all. Anyways, I dont much like to comment on the words where you took the benefit of my remarks and meant to be a MIAAN MITHOO. )
Arguments are always arguments and these cannot lose their identity either these are purposed for healthy discussion or debate-for-the-sake-of-debate. On same point of discussion/point of law the learnd fellows from law profession give their very solid arguments and so many times the conclusions are very un-predictable. Therefore, in so many such distract discussions, one cannot draw a line of big difference between them.
I hereby clarify my view point about your stance at this thread. It is not something to depict a message of "be bad" or "be good" for the readers from you. Rather, it had been your view that firms in so many cases mis-use their authority/position. You, in your obervation, may be right to some reasonable extent. I dont claim for any perfection at the part of the firms.
However, my "exception list" to your above observation was that
- the ICAP has very active role now a days;
- it intervenes unjustifiable strict actions of the firms/principals;
- the firms do not disregard their efficient and hard working students;
- such students are liked by every one and they dont feel a problem during their articles;
- there are no known cases of objection certificates and if there are some such examples, these would be very very very rare;
- there could be minor differences of opinion/thoughts between seniors and juniors owing to a number of reasons which interalia include undue pressure from seniors as well as immature behaviour of the juniors (here my opinion is, the student should bear such pressure which may appear to be undue in his opinion for the sake of his own benefit and bright future. There is no need to show heroic actions. There is no Collective Bargain Agent CBA, in firms so far, therefore there is no need to become a leader).
- respect is always due for even that person from whom we have learnt anything, either by direct counselling, or by following any one, or by observing someone's style and stragetgies etc or by some other indirect method.
As far as your statement that
"However, students having lived more than one third of thier lives, having got the pre-requiste knowledge and after gaining some experience can bring thier creativity into play."
Yes, nothing contained in any of my above posts put a cap on playing any one's creativity. But one must remember that crossing the limits of skies is only a fiction/illusion. Therefore creativity should be there but always within the acceptable limits. Creativity, motivation, innovation and finding new avenues is liked by every one in senior capacity and normally is not criticised.
You further added
"There are much cases when one working at a lower position can handle the task better than his senior. Presence of mentally incompetent person at managerial level is quite a common phenomena in our society."
There may be some examples of the above observations appearing from their outlook but this is not very simple. I do agree to the power of fate, still every person has reasons to be placed some where which may not be known to the juniors but very well known to his seniors. Moreover, if at any cost it is likely to be agreed that in some case this has actually happened, even then we cannot overrule it since the seat is occupied by such incompenetent person. A wise begger cannot replace an incompetent king. This is not some thing out of this world. Furthermore, in so many cases, childern take a lead to ther fathers in education, postion, status, competence and much more. EVEN THEN FATHER IS THE PERSON WHO IS FATHER AND SON IS THE PERSON WHO IS SON. THIS CANNOT MAKE A SON TO BE FATHER OF HIS FATHER. I think it should not be un-digestbale clarification.
Your discussion on NORMS, HUMBLE/BOLD, RESPECT and AGE etc, I think so much you can conclude form my current and previous osts on this thread, if you really want to grasp my idea. So its not much workable to talk on this more.
At the end, you appear to be substantially agreeing with my opinions. This is good. )
I would wait for your further posts.
Regards,
Kamran
Kamran I guess there is nothing much left for us to discuss on this issue. Had it not been your post I could have come across with a criticall evaluation of this. However, that would have been just for the sake of debate. And I won't like to get in a debate for the sake of debate with you, that would have been just a waste of your precious time. My time as is of a bloody student is never worthy.
I guess that we both have an idea about the environment of CA firms, your experience is definitely much more than mine. So, I hope you very well understand the context in which I am putting things in this thread. You being the representative of managent are got to defend the position of the management. That's what I find you doing here. I mentioned in my earlier post that I would have been able to make my point clearer if I could come across with some real life examples.
Leaving all this aside, let me ask for your opinion about some practices common in firms. I find these nothing else than exploitation.
-Why students are paid just a very lowly stipend, and why this word stipend is used? Is it the worth of thier work or is just a mean adopted by ICAP to provide cheap work force to chartered accountants?
-The duration of articles, it could be max for a period of five years and is normally 3.5 years, isn't it a bit more? I mean there are numerous examples of students who are in the age of earning depends totally on thier home for monthly expense?
-Generally a student have to work some months more than his normal training period. Its due to the time spent as unregistered trainee and at the end of the period compensating for extra leaves?
-Students normally work much more than ICAP's forty hours per week and in most of the cases there are not given any benefit for this? What could be worse that in many cases it is not even allowed to be adjusted against extra leaves availed by the student.
-The threat of Show-cause notice. I swear most of the cases I have seen, such notices are given to students for unjust reasons. Now students are forced to give a receiving. When any occasion arrives when ICAP have to intervene these show-cause received and signed by the student may be a big threat for him.
-Double penalizaion for absents is yet another pretty common tool for exploitation.
-Late sittings, I don't mind it at all if these are for some reasons, however, at most of occaions I find late sittings totally illogical and reason less. For example if your senior or manager is there working you may be ask for a late sitting spreading on hours, no matter you do nnothing in all that time. Or after office hours you are waiting for a manager or partner to get free and get your work reviewed. I personally have been dozens of time made to wait for hours and at 10 o clock the manager says sorry for the wait and the review is postponned on next day. The worth of that sorry becomes very clear when the very next day very same thing recurs. This is how they worth your time, so why should you worth thier time or work.
- A lot lot of examples are there when a student has to sacrifice his classes for some outstation assignment, and the fee wasted belongs to the student.
Sir, these examples are just an iota out of the plethora of common practices. So the word jabri mushakat ideally suits for this thing which is comically called training.
It may not be any more poductive if we progress on this topic, so I suggest to leave things here. If you don't think otherwise I look for a conclusive post from you. However, if you want to go further, then having a debate with you is always fun for me and necessarily entails something for me to learn
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Dear Shoaib,
It had never been an objective to send some one's mind on seventh sky or eslewhere. I only praise some one, if such praise is justified. Further, telling you for forecasting some capabilities to grow up in the profession is not a big deal at all. Anyways, I dont much like to comment on the words where you took the benefit of my remarks and meant to be a MIAAN MITHOO. )
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Did you call me MIAN MITHoo, if I am really happy that someone preceived me this way. I really mean it.