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salaam all,
discussions abt ACA n ACCA have always been hot in this forum ... n both the schools of thought r trying 2 degrade or underestimate the other ... well, this is a wild goose chase, bcoz i agree with many of my fellow members tht every qualification has its own value n attitude ... i want 2 share my personal views here n plz dont take it personally ... i m not doing ne of these two things (ACCA or ACA)
i notice tht my fellows from ACA group have a bit more aggressive attitude towards ACCA ... some say tht ACCA is a shortcut, some say tht it iz a back-door-entry into ACA, some say ACCA iz very easier thn ACA etc etc etc.
well, u might think of my comments as biased , but this iz how i feel abt things. let us take two cases tht lead to an ACA
case-A intermediate -> join ICAP -> ACA
case-B intermediate -> graduation(BBA/B.Comm/etc etc) -> get ACCA -> join ICAP -> ACA
here, i think tht a peron from route-B worths more thn a person from route-A ... let me expalin why ...
in route-B, u r not "just" an ACA ... u have internationally covetted ACCA in ur hands, plus, u have a professional graduation degree in ur hand. in case of route-A, u r "just" an ACA. u dont have ne other professional qualification in hand tht is internationally recognized n accepted (like ACCA). n as far as i know (plz correct me if i m wrong), ACA of pakistan iz not recognized in "all" countries. plus, u dont have a professional graduation even.
so dont u think tht route-B is far better by every aspect??? u have every thing in ur hand, from national 2 international??? plus a graduation as well??? n in terms of time???(coz some mmbs commented tht ACCA->ACA route is shorter)??? while in route-A, u r just an inter-pass person with ACA (not even elegibe for elections))???, just kidding!!!)???
so come on friends, do away with this useless discussion tht who is better thn whom. b +ve, do respect n get respected.
this was just how i see the things, no intensions 2 hurt ne1.
salaaaam (Y)
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FARHAN
In the long run, you have to have support and promote your own national qualification if you do not want to carry the yoke of neo-colonialism on your shoulders. If CA of Pakistan fades away, Pakistani qualified accountants will be at the mercy of the likes of ACCA. Have you noticed how complaints are logged ob AABA website? http//visar.csustan.edu/aaba/aaba.htm Also, you will find countries like Malaysia are very nationalistic when comes to accountancy qualification, and they must have decided that after much thought as they are a progressive country. After you have looked at the ACCA section of http//visar.csustan.edu/aaba/aaba.htm it would be interesting to have some informed comment from you.
JM
Salaams all,
Re Jaffers comment about neo-colonialism, I might add that Pakistans ICAP qualification is already a part of that heritage so that argument does not hold water. We are already neo-colonialists in that sense. We practice and copy our "masters" already!!
In the UK the perception is that people going for articleships/traineeships of ICAEW are usually graduates with higher academic qualifications. Further, the breadth of experience gained is wider too.Entry to the ACCA or for that matter even CIMA is not restricted in the academic sense. Further the training is not universally or as well structured as the ICAEW or even ICAP. One could discuss the merits of the content of those structures which may be a more meaningful discussion. All of the qualifications have their merits, but its only those qualifications that are prepared to adapt to the modern business environment and which are relevant which will survive in the long run.
You can discuss which qualification is better until the cows come home, but we all need to wake up to the fact that accounting is changing fast and that the role of accountants needs to be adapted to a more dynamic business environment. The advent of computing systems has largely diminished the accounts prep aspect of accounting and other traditional accounting themes.
My suggestion is that if you want to prove your worth, you prove it in the work place.
Coming back to Jaffers point about neo-colonialism, its about time the Muslim world started looking at its own roots and started to define accounting and related subjects in its own light. The Enrons of this world prove that its not the "superior" qualification that counts, its the basic ethics of the system we practice. I find that accounting is teaching the world to be greedy and amoral when it tries to persuade the public that a set of accounts is a set of honest reporting. My experience of Pakistani (and other Muslim accountants) is that they are damn good at their work and that they have the intellectual capacity to to be brilliant and original in thought. So, lets stop this "I am better than you" argument and focus on the reality of the work place, which is that the letters at the end of your name do not really signify a superiority. If anything, these are disguises for an insecure lot. May be we should be pioneering a qualification that other people want, rather than trying to be copy cats of our "masters" the ex and current colonialists.
Quotable quotes bout ACCAs
ACCA is like a person doing a druggist (compounder) course and pretending that he/she will become a doctor.
Well ACCA also requires lots of professional hands on training for example u can complete ur 3 year training by preparing books for a beauty parlor. (true in UK). A STR can be signed by any tom dick and harry, nobody cares.
If ACCA is better or even equal to ACA why do most of the ACCAs opt for CA. Isnât ACCA enough!!!. Why do very few ACA opt for ACCA. Is it because u donât need an ACCA after CA.
Wats the minimum starting pay for an ACCA, donât know ? why there isnât any market. Fresh CA pays are well defined and very few are jobless if any.
Profession is identified by audits but paper 3.1 audit and assurance services is optional. Meaning a person can be an ACCA without studying audit at an advanced stage.
U r sure of passing ACCA, gr8 so anyone can do it. Gr8 quality na.
My own opinion the problem with ACCAs is that they always consider that they are equal or better that an ACA but they donât try to prove it in the market. I am sure that an ACA will never promote an ACCA but ACCAs will have to remember that they have to fight to make their own market. If they donât they can never be equal or better in Pakistan. Its just like ACMAs they can only advertise that they are the best paid in UK. Wat bout Pakistan.
ACCA's earn respect donât ask for it
compete and fight
respect earned cannot be taken back
there is a difference is between smelling and having success
both require different caliber and type of a person
hoping for some response on the qoutes
ACCAs wake up
Nascar
Well, the quotes you posted say well enough, and besides, since i belong to the CA group, i think that i should keep quiet for some time to allow my ACCA friends to ponder over these quotes. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
"ACCA is like a person doing a druggist (compounder) course and pretending that he/she will become a doctor."
Lol... maybe i should make this quote my forum signature.
________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!
Dear all
to start with, one cannot compare professional qualifications with eachother, they are all good and difficult thats why they are recognised as Professional Qualifications unlike degrees.
now if we are talking in a pakistani scenerio then there is nothing much but a professional prejudice and tussel between all the the pak prof qualifications, CA is always on the winning end mostly because of our monetary policies backed by our Finance Ministers who usually happen to be CAs. Personally i give credit to ICAP for establishing such an atmosphere where no employer thinks of other than CAs. as far as other countries are concerned (being living abroad i can say this with absolute surety) ACCA is considered at par with CA or CMA.
now all i can say that either the whole world is stupid or only pakistani employers specially CAs (most intelligent creature) are genius. people who believe in later part of my sentence need a good psychatrist to unfold there ego problem of superiority.
i do believe CA (pak) is difficult to complete so as CMA (pak) but this is not because it is tough or it encompasses something which is not taught in ACCA, it is only because of the UNFAIR examination system of these institutes, have u ever considered why examination sheets are Graded as A, B , C or whatever, why dont they publish the exact marks as ACCA and other professional qualifications do. if u never thought of that before.....think now. secondly the the stage (part) pass system makes CA and CMA more difficult to do unlike ACCA where u can pass individual papers.
coming back to who is genius who is not, u cannot judge it by the qualification one has, it all depends upon the person itself, i know many CAs who know nothing what they do, i know many ACCAs who are far better than anyother prof qualified person.....so this declines the argument.
yes CAs do have a edge over others mainly because of the training they get while doing their articles, which is more important than the book knowledge which CMA (pak) students have more than anyone i have seen.
i rest my case with the forum, and would request members of this group to think rationally, talking high can never make u superior unless u prove it.
Kind Regards
Azeem Shah Khan
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in response to above
Dear all
EVERY BODY compares professional qualifications even same qualifications from different institutions(in our case firms), so comparing is on, no Question bout it. Even if u consider that every qualification is equal the market does not consider that even in UK. Apply in a big multinational u will understand it very quickly. As far as difficulty goes the passing ratio most certainly is a measure especially people failing in CA and doing ACCA easily (why isn't it the other way round - ever wonder) . CFA is very relevant they openly say that passing percentage is determined based on the difficulty of the paper and market conditions.
As for Finance Ministers doing it for CA one has to become one to do it. sitting on the side complaining wonât solve your problems - dear ACCA's. Credit must go to ICAP as well as CAs themselves for performing in a manner that intelligent employers think of no other than CAs. i hope ACCAs try to do the same not just complain.
If ACCA is considered at par with CA or CIMA people wonât become members of ICAEW or CIMA - why bother to take the longer more difficult route to get to the same destination. I would love to see the earning figures and position held by same experienced ACCAs and ICAEWs or CIMAs. Earning a big amount when converted into RS is not an indication of success or equality. ACCA's in UK telling CAs in Pakistan they earn a lot when converted in RS - perhaps level of job and position held is more pertinent here or perhaps ACCA need to come back to Pakistan and try to earn the same amount here. that would sure solve the problem.
the ego problem of ACCAs is that they want to be just like CAs or perhaps want an equal status without trying as much. ACCA most certainly need a doctor to solve their ego issue and develop some self esteem.
Consider CFA examination results, they only give the marks range where u lie in not the exact marks and passing percentage varies each attempt so why can't ICAP do it. Do CFAs complain - i think they are mature enough to understand the logic and basis for this.
For a CFA u have to pass all parts of the paper not one, this so because a professional is required to be expert in all areas.
It all depends upon the person itself but majority counts and who has proven what in the market. ACCAs AND CMAs do something.
Well said " talking high can never make u superior unless u prove it"
best wishes
NASCAR
Dear all (specially Nascar)
now u r talking, u have made me clueless, i dont know what else i can say to prove my points....u have made my job even more easier after writing superb pieces of self-contradictory paragraphs which depicts nothing but pure SUPERIORITY COMPLEX. plz dont take it personal, most CAs have it....so nothing to worry about.
let me start again with my very first point that one CANNOT compare prof qulifications. after refering to ur response i would conclude that U dont even recognise the diff b/w a prof qualification and Uni degrees (MBAs), let me quote urself for a second
"EVERY BODY compares professional qualifications even same qualifications from different institutions"
above is not possible in any prof CHARTERED accountancy body.
it is not the qualification but its output (qualified members) that can be compared, there is a BIG diff b/w the two. Two qualified CAs can have diff levels of intellect (if they have any - just kidding).
i would recommend u not to talk about UK scenerio(i m working in a firm of accountants and two qualified CAs and one finalist work under me) i can assure u thats not the case in UK, infact to some extent employers prefer to have ACCA trainees than CA trainees mainly because ACCA trainees can spend more time in office during their courses (well thats not very relevant with our discussion - we can talk about it somewhere else).
passing rate CAN be a judge of examination difficulty ONLY when the examination systems are same, there is NO comparison between ACCA and ICAP examination systems when one system allows paper by paper pass and the other on part basis. thats the reason ACCA is comparabily easy to pass.
i have never comeacross a single valid rational reason for not PUBLISHING the exact marks. if u (being mature) have discovered the justification of it then plz let me know as well.
once again u are behaving like a child, my friend our discussion is about ACCA vs CA, which are similar in context, u cant just bring in CFA for the sake of justifying ur point, CFA is completely diff (a news to u ....isn't it?) and whatever their examination bodies do are irrelevant in our discussion.
regarding ur second paprgraph about Finance Ministers, i have nothing to say except that it clearly dipicts ur complex. i have no complains, i m sitting in the market and competing very well with all other professionally qualified accountants, and i will do the same when i will comeback to pakiland (make sure u dont face me), i m sure there would be many ACCAs who can prove their presence in any company if they are allowed to get into the company by terrified CA employers who are worried about their own positions and dont have the courage to compete with ACCAs on equal grounds, perhaps that is one of the main reasons they dont wanna let ACCAs in the company. i m not complaining....am I? isn't it true? if u think u r better then why dont u take ACCAs inn and compete with them.
now ur so called comparison b/w ACCA - CMA & CA. i know many CMAs who are doing ACCA and CA to add finance/audit and tax areas under their belts. its true that CAs dont normally go for anyother prof qualification which once again prove their self-believed arrogance that they dont need to learn anything else. i feel sad for such people who deliberately put a FULL STOP on their development side.
the salary issue as per the latest survey conducted by HAYS Personel Agency in UK
- CMAs are the highest earners (mainly because they work in industry)
since we are discussing ACCA vs CA i will stick to the salary comparisons b/w the two.
yes CAs are paid HIGHER, want to know WHY? only and only because when they qualify they have got 4 years articles exp to speak for higher package, unfortunately fresh ACCAs dont have this luxury. if u talk about the Trainee Stipends/Salaries, let me surprise u again, most often ACCA trainees are paid higher mainly because of their availibilty in the office.
i dont want to comment upon pak salary comparisons since they are biased and are not a true reflection of ACCA grads abilities.
in UK there is no such prejudice.
to make u please YES ICAEW is more prestigious mainly because it is an old establihed body.
if thats the way all CAs think, then i, being an ACCA would never want to become like a CA. secondlly this is what u think that ACCAs dream of CAs, u r so funny .........i can only laugh on that, see who is talking about self esteem, this can be voted as the joke of the century.
i think the above is enough for u to digest today.
let me apologise if u took anything personally, remember we all belong to the same family of accountants and we should respect eachother. ur experiences could be right but it all depends upon the people u sit with, ur ACCA colleagues/fellow students/friends could have made u think like that but it doesn't mean that all fingers are equal though belong to the same hand. (now dont quote these lines for comparing qualifications - i m talking about INDIVIDUALS)
i thank you for appreciating my words of wisdom
"talking high can never make u superior unless u prove it"
perhaps u must also try to understand it.
Kind Regards
Azeem Shah Khan
Dear Guybrush
I saw ur first msg on the forum "Interest and Islam" and i thought there r people who can THINK or atleast like to think, on that forum u were condenming a couple of members for not using logic to support their arguments. to be exact u said something like that
"If some members have views other than yours, then convince them by the power of rational argument instead of ridiculing them personally. This is highly degrading and unprofessional behavior. If you want to make a point, then do so by giving logical arguments in a cool and calm manner. And if you don't have the appropriate knowledge on this issue, then please do not force your views on anybody in this fashion."
i dont know how u would justify ur very own Unprofessional attitude on this forum where u applauded Mr Nascar's unethical and degrading quotations, u said
"Well, the quotes you posted say well enough, and besides, since i belong to the CA group, i think that i should keep quiet for some time to allow my ACCA friends to ponder over these quotes."
"ACCA is like a person doing a druggist (compounder) course and pretending that he/she will become a doctor."
"Lol... maybe i should make this quote my forum signature."
i have never seen any better HYPOCRISY than this.......is it what all CAs do or has it got anything to do with a common disease of superiority complex.
Kind Regards
Azeem Shah Khan
Audit and Assurance
Hardy & Company
Chartered Accountants
Dear Azeem,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>let me start again with my very first point that one CANNOT compare prof qulifications. after refering to ur response i would conclude that U dont even recognise the diff b/w a prof qualification and Uni degrees (MBAs), let me quote urself for a second
"EVERY BODY compares professional qualifications even same qualifications from different institutions"
above is not possible in any prof CHARTERED accountancy body.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
I will disagree with your point of view that u cannot compare prof. qualifications,
Every body makes comparison b/w the professional qualifications,
It seems that u are an ACCA, may i ask why did u choose the ACCA??
did u hear about the ACCA and got into it directly????? surely not,
u must have compared the different qualifications which u were going to choose for ur career, even before getting into the CA, I myself compared different qualifications (even i compared MBA fin. with CA) and discussed with my seniors that which qualification should i select for myself.
Now how do we make comparison????? the first thing which we all think is the monetary benefit which we will be getting from a particular qualification, Secondly we think of the difficulty in passing the exams of that qualification, and so on....
Dear azeem, u live in UK, and u think about UK's environment, ACCAs carry worth all over the world, but as far as pakistan is concerned they dont have the worth in front of CAs. there are so many reasons for that which have already been discussed in the forum.
ACCAs will take time to compete with CAs in Pakistan, but currently ICAP's monopoly rules over the Pakistan, which is expected to continue in the future, so beware of ICAP's policies when u will come back.
Regards.
SMR
Hey Azim cool down yaaar
Its almost time that Rip Van Winkles ( Mr.Nascar and Mr.GalFloss et. all ) wake up from their siesta .
What one should ask is to let an advertised Accountancy/Assurance/Finance job ,simply ask all Professionals to apply, be them be an ACA,ACMA, ACCA, CIMA or for that matter a PIPFA AND LET FITTEST GET THE OPPORTUNITY like it is being done in your part of the world .
Simply copying up an I/Tax Ordinance & Regulations of another western country and modifying some excerpts to suit Pakistani needs is one the KARNAMAs of one of our very "Brilliant " FCA .
That relates to the MONOPLY issue .
And yes MR.Nascar this site is for u to check to get a bird eye view of who gets paid off howmuch ( as u think PAY is the sole criteria )
http//workthing-d-aspen.workthing.com/front/channel/accountancy/viewpoints/training_payanddisplay.xml
Shehzad .
A very interesting debate indeed. I do not have much know how of CA environment in Pakistan or whether ACCAs are better or worse than CAs. The marginal knowledge I have is only by comments gathered from pakistani folks working on my clients. Apparently, the argument can be made of the curriculum and how the institutions force the students to attain academic requirements i.e., rutta or understanding of the subject matter. Only thing I can contribute here is that I have dealt with both CAs and ACCAs from Pakistan who have come on rotations on my engagements. One very peculiar thing I have noted about the CAs has been the notorious ability to ruttafi everything and being pretty lame about grasping the big picture and at times a terrible embarrassment in front of the client. On the other hand I found ACCAs (particularly this one chap) generally more adept to thinking out of the box and able to work very well with the teams and issues. Accounting at end of the day is just that. With proper training, motivation and experience you will get it. However, the behavior developed during a person's early years go a far way in future career development. Just my personal observation on people who report to me and this is in no way representing a generalization.
Regards,
Dear all
thank u all for presenting NEUTRAL/RATIONAL views on the subject.
Regards
Azeem
Dear Nascar and Guybrush
Do I take your silence as agreement?
Regards
Azeem