Dear,
Escape is no solution if we are talking professionally. I believe it. I was just avoiding a lengthy discussion particular to one of your queries that what efforts ICAP has made and which local standards/pronouncement it has issued.
That's why I asked you about financial reporting framework. If you know it in detail, you must come to know what ICAP has so far done despite taking the lead in adopting IFRSs/IASs which is considered most logical across the globe and is also pursuant to decisions taken by the Govt. (CLA/SECP).
Why an economy need to follow IFRSs is also a thing to be understood properly and needs lots of inputs for getting explained. This is an era of GDRs/ADRs and cross border deals of listed securities. World is striving for a worldwide common stock market where securities could be traded beyond the barriers of borders and lines of control etc. IOSCO always wanted a global convergence of financial reporting standards to facilitate easier cross border offerings and deals. World is getting the shape of a global village. IFAC is assiduously trying to reach harmony with US standard setters for such convergence. Pakistani companies like OGDCL and MCB have experienced GDR issuance and have taken all the benefits of such deals.
In whole scenario the ones who say that national standards should be developed and IFRSs must not be followed are just pulling the economy and the nation to a dark age. What a joke, first develop all localized standards then start their convergence and put the world in a new game, despite your are not even a teddy bear in front of those mammoths. Who will come to deal with your markets if you will be using a different reporting framework. This needs research to know why developing nations opt for using IFRSs, specially those whose economy is not that strong and advantageous.
Still, I agree there could be some areas where compliance with IFRSs may not be possible for a country. Even in Pakistan, ICAP has always been issuing Technical Releases (TRs and ATRs) where some difference was apparent more specifically due to overriding impact of companies law. One needs to understand what status such TRs have in applicable financial reporting framework.
Apart from this historical effort, a need was felt that medium and small entities (there are certain parameters to define what is included in such entities) may not be in a position to fulfill all the complete requirements of IFRSs. ICAP therefore devised Accounting and Financial Reporting Standards for Medium and Small entities locally which have been made part of legally enforceable financial reporting framework by SECP through Companies Ordinance, 1984. Such entities are allowed to deviate from IFRSs and opt such applicable standards, unless they become significant entities, in which case they will have to follow IFRSs. This is quite logical as these medium/small entities have no bearing when we talk in globalize perspective. However, it may be noted that such local standards do not materially variate from IFRSs. Only the complicated and complex requirements have been taken out and these have been made very concise and short.
ICAP has an advisory role and SECP, SBP, FBR (in specific) and industry at large (in general) have been getting advices on all technical matters. A complete set of such technical opinions is available on ICAP's website. For professional firms, ICAP has developed guidelines, manuals, programs, procedures, ICQs and so much apart from the self regulation through directives and bylaws.
Remember, this is not a complete picture. I have just picked some points to direct your attention towards the answer of your question.
I have replied your question in the Tax sub-forum.
I am doing nothing here except to encourage the part qualified or newly entered students as well as joining hands with professionals to promote the knowledge and professional understanding. I have all the regards for all of professionals and students. However, I feel students may not have a full grip of a given subject. (Even qualified people can lack some areas). This is not a disgrace.
I am also endeavoring to form a real life forum where the selective qualified professionals from firms (mainly partners) will participate to discuss their issues. Idea behind this effort is to find the issues and problems which one may not be identifying at its own by sharing them and to provide solutions developed through a readily available consensus. This idea has been conceived by the partner of a big firm. I mean its not my idea. A forum will be formed and participants would be available to each other through mails and by having monthly or bi-monthly meetings.
I know no body can compel any one to post here or reply any query.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
Mr Kamran
I am not escaping from any discussion. I have said that the Federal Govt and SECP are responsible for drawing framework of financial reporting standards for all type of companies.
You said that I am ignoring your queries? You have also ignored my many queries. I asked from you the accounting books which have written by the CA's and also said that the text books relating to tax and corporate law written by ACMAs/FCMAs are being taught in ICAP.
You also misinterpreted that I written about the Part qualified ACMAs and CAs. In fact I was discussing about the problem of equivalent qualification faced by part qualified ACMA/CA.
I know that the MCB is listed at London Stock Exchange but I dont know about OGDCL.
I never heared about Accounting and Financial Reporting Standards for Medium and Small designed by the ICAP. I think you are mixing the financial reporting framework of companies with the AOP's and Sole Props.
ICAP even not issued guideline for adopting one accounting school of thought for financial reporting purpose.Some companies in pakistan use British Accounting Terminologies and some use American Accounting terminologies in their financial staments. At B.Com,BBA Level and M.B.A american terminologies used in cost accounting and british terminologies are used in financial accounting. Even some students of universities think that they are two complete different subjects and have no linkage. This is the duty of ICAp to draw guideline for the teaching of accounting also.
Infact due to narrow and limited thinking of CAs ICAP is not playing its role properly.
Regards
Awais
Awais,
"Escaping" was not mentioned for you. Rather you said I may not reply if don't like, so I responded to that line.
If you feel I am mixing the standards for medium and small entities you need to learn all the accounting from scratch. This is just an advice. Would you like to study latest Fifth Scedule to the Companies Ordinance, 1984. Keep in mind you are arguing with a practicing CA working for a top ten firm. Don't behave childish. This part of your post suggest that I should not reply you since you don't know alphabets. Still, I give some replies to your queries.
The professional In-equivalence is market driven situation. You and I cannot change it. Keep it in your record for all the times to come. Mind it, everything is market driven. ICAP does not ask any one to recruit its part qualified people. Your posts depcit why people prefer CA part qualified ones. No offence. You don't even know about what are the accounting anf financial reporting standards for medium and small sized entities and you want to get good positions in the competition. Decision is yours. If you feel you are better in the competition then one day you will get the better. No one in the world can snatch it from you.
While I believe book writing is no magic (in Pakistan's scenario; if you need explanation what does this mean I can go in detail) and I can point out so many mistakes in the books you are refering, still, you should understand that book writing does not make some one a better professional. However, if you have not seen the books written by CAs, it is your fault. The whole tax and corporate laws (in past) remained dependent on S.A.Salam publications. Do you know who was he? I mean Mr. S.A. Salam? Do you know who are the writers of PBP and BPP publishers, the people like Muhammad Maqbool and Eugene Stanley Williams (Pakistani CAs)? There are some people having common memberships like Kh. Amjad Saeed. There could be produced a long list of such writers. Still, I believe book writing is very good thing but is not a measure of professional competence. Theoratical and practical aspects do vary a lot sometimes. We have seen very good teachers and writers but when they come to professional work they fail to manage their share of work.
Don't base your challenges on the ground of your ignorance. I just suggest.
The issues of american and british terminology do not practically exist. Can you tell me where such a distinction is made. Yes, there is difference on recognition, derecognition, measurement, subsequent to initial measurement, presentation and disclosures requirements for certain things between IFRSs and US standards. IFAC is working on convergence I pointed out. But what you are discussing is a story which is commonly known to B Com students. If you prepare income statement, its USA method, if you prepare trading profit and loss account it is british. If you make out this statement this way it is british otherwise it is american. If you call "stocks" it is british and if you call inventories or merchandise it is american. What a joke. Can you list down such differences which you are pointing out? I would wait for. Remember ICAP or ICMAP cannot sit in any one's mind to remove his illusions or make him to learn and then speak.
If you don't know about OGDCL, then try to know about it. There are certain others in the row if you would try you will come to know.
I would not be going to reply any childish queries from you now hereon. If you need professional insights you are at liberty to discuss.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
@Awaisaftab
Bhai I think you haven't read the books written by FCAs like Khwaja Amjad Saeed, Javed H Zuberi and Khalid Petiwala aka KP. They are good in explaining things. Though Javed H Zuberi books have some printing mistakes but they are good writers on the subject of accounts, audit and taxation. Even ICMA students use their books.
Regards,
Syed Muhammad Shahbaz
Dear Kamran
Thanks a lot. When I was writing the topic ACMA Vs CA I was thinking that it is unethical or unprofessional. But thanks you very much you have endorsed my opinion that a war initiated by the CAâs exists in Pakistan.
In my one of previous posting I have written CA's was unchallenged till the early eighties. You said that you donât have any hate for any profession but dear your heat toward ACMA, atleast apparent and very visible at many pleases, both your replies to my recent topic and also at many topic on the Accountancy Forum.
I have read the section 234 of Companies Ordinance, 1984 and the Schedule fifth of the said Ordinance. I found not a single sentence about its applicability to the other type of business organization except companies. If Fed Govt or the SECP have made applicable the requirements of Schedule Fifth of the company ordinance on other type of business organization through any of its circular or order please give the reference of such circular.
Dear Sir, I am also a part qualified ACMA and hold a managerial position in second largest advertising company of Pakistan. No doubt, you have much knowledge and experience and a practicing member beside it you are a qualified C.A. Sir I have worked thought my career with the qualified CAâs and ACMAâs. Let me tell you a joke of one of your qualified CHARTED ACCOUNTANT. One of a very skilled and energetic CA wanted to get audited his account without preparing Bank Reconciliation Statements. I can give his membership number to you but I think it will too unethical. So donât throw stones on others you also live in GLASS ROOM.
You say
âThe issues of american and british terminology do not practically exist.â
Mind it the basic purpose of finical statements is to allow users of finical statements to make more informed decision making while making investment decisions.
Yes this is not a big issue for an ACA but it is a big and disturbing issue for the shareholders who are all not ACA or ACMA instead even some of them are partially literate.
The one of basic difference is that the American Accountant donât treat P & L A/C as ledger A/C but the British Accountants use P & L A/C as general ledger account even in Cost Accountant. <font color="red">I know no course of Advance Cost Accounting is not being taught at CA (But they can conduct the Cost Audit according to CO what a big Contradiction and Joke ACMA cannot conduct financial audit even they have advance course of audit and accounts) but for your kind information please consult the most well known book âManagement and Cost Accountingâ written by âColin Doryâ</font id="red">
Mind it the basic purpose of finical statements is to allow users of finical statements to make more informed decision making while making investment decisions.
Your also say about me
<font color="red">âIf you don't know about OGDCL, then try to know about it. There are certain others in the row if you would try you will come to know.â</font id="red">
But one of your posting of 4th Feb you said
<font color="red">âI in fact am unaware of such verdict given by the court. However, I had an understanding that ACMAs can audit below that limit. But the governing rule was not in my memory. Can you provide me some reference to download it from somewhereâ.</font id="red">
I think you assume all other top professionals as Kids thatâs why you frequently use following words not only for me but also for others (Rabia and Khalid)
<font color="orange">Kidding
Kid
Child
Childish</font id="orange">
Sir I want to talk you on REAL ISSUES of account and finance rather than NON âISSUES on equality basis.
Thanks and Regards
Awais Aftab
Dear Awais,
I can just request you to please get matured and correct your ideas by conceiving knwoledge which is off course no one's property.
You still argue about Accounting and Financial Reporting Standards for Medium and Small Sized Entities and don't realise how much crucial these standards would be for your accounts. You are in doubt about them even after reading 5th schedule to the CO84.
The shareholders, are expected to know at large, the basics, specially if they are active investors. Other stakeholders are definitely at a lead.
Mind it, there is no issue of american/british terminology, which you are pointing out without quoting a single practical example. Read the revised IAS-1 and compare it with US standards. There is only one remaining dissenting issue as far as presentation under IAS or US standards is concerned which was raised by Professor Barth and Messrs Cope, Garnett and Leisenring that two statement approach is not correct because it provides choices, reduces comparability and provides prominance to one component of financial statements over the others. As far as presentation is concerned there remains no other conflict. This is the process of convergence I explained to you. I hope you would understand it.
There is no war between any one. Facts cannot be changed and demands for professionals is market driven. I wonder you say that CAs were unchallenged in 80s. So you mean now they are challenged. If you feel they are challenged then why you are unhappy. Keep on with the challenge because in challenges we cannot complain why others are not accepting us or getting kind to us for the reason that we need a job for our family reasons etc. I must place on record that there is no such situation practically and this paragraph is only a reply to make you understand.
Further, I don't hate any one. Remember it. Had I been having some hate, I would have never been replying you. You are a brother like all others.
I called certain things childish because these are childish. We expect professional discussion. If one does not know, he/she should ask. I ask questions some times as well. There is no harm since the purpose of the forum is to share and seek knowledge. However, we should not challenge the things if we don't know them just like you don't know what is financial reporting framework for your company (although you are manager accounts) but you deny the applicability of accounting and financial reporting standards for medium and small sized entities in its entirety. If you can spare time, go to following link, which is revised 5th Schedule to CO84 and read what its paragraph 1A suggests
http//www.secp.gov.pk/notification/pdf/2007/Notifi_Aug21_SRO(5thsch).pdf
You can find further details from SECP and ICAP websites that how these were developed and then notified.
Now you decide what should we call it?
I replied you just because I felt you have a genuine problem and you should get releived of this state. Please try to study the things or consult others where you lack understanding. I personally do it. There is no harm in it. This should be taken as a real purpose of the forum. And yes, please get out of this idea of hates. There is no issue of hate or war at all.
Cheers.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
Dear,
Please also see the following link
http//www.secp.gov.pk/notification/pdf/2007/Notifi_Aug21_SRO.pdf
Regards,
KAMRAN.
Ok
I beleive on your words. As you have used many words of courtesy.
ok
Awais
Dear Kamran
Thanks a lot for your replies to me queries relating to tax issues one of the link you provided is not working.
Cheers
Awais
Dear All,
Please stop fighting. We are here to learn something and share with others. There is no logic of comparing ACMAs and CAs because each one belong to different domain. And It is not the qualification which distinguishes you rather it is your personality and behavior.
Best regards
Awais,
If the link is not working you can visit
www.secp.gov.pk and find out the relevant notification in 'services' section.
Danish, there is no fighting at all. I just communicated what is in essense beneficial to Awais.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
Kamran
I am agree with you. There is no fight between us. But you take too much time to tell me the proof in favour of your opinion. I expect that in future we will talk on the pure issues of accounting.
Regards
Awais
Awais,
I just expected it to be in your knowledge since you are practically handling the accounts.
Welcome to discuss the issues.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by awaisaftab</i>
<br />
An extensive cold war exists between ACMA's and CA's
In Pakistan's job market C.A's have good salary packages and working on better posistions then ACMA's.
I think that it is not due to the reason that CA's have more skills or knowledge than that of ACMA's. But the basic reason is that CA has remained a well known programe since last many decades in Pakistn. Even today many well educated persons don't know about ACMA. But know the environment is chaging ACMA are getting more and more acceptence by the job market
The ACMA's are not less in capabilities than CA's in any way.
Due to the cost reduction strategies the ACMA's has become first choice for manufacturers and service providers who want to adopt cost leadership strategy.
The syllabus of Corporate Laws and Tax Laws of ICMA is more wide than ICAP.
Awais Aftab
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
There could not be a clear cut answer of this question.
Under certain environment and circumstances ACMA proves better and vice versa.
Environments where ACMA are better than CA
1) Theoretical knowledge of ACMA member is more than CA
2) They are less costly to the organization
3) Cost of achieving membership is low (low educational expenses)
4) Easy admission criteria
Environments where CA are better than ACMA
1) Strong practical knowledge
2) Although accounting knowledge is low but they know how to manage
3) Working as junior, then semi-senior, and senior and finally manger polished them to work as manager right from leaving a good firm after four or five years.
4) CA learn how to tackle the people besides there knowledge
5) Their specialty is auditing of financial record, and ACMA learn a very little about it.
CA is normally preferred because of the following reasons
1) Because CA at top managerial post prefer CA.
2) CA is older than ACMA
3) CA from a reputable firm is different from a CA from unknown firm, people normally compare ACMA with CA from any leading firm
4) There is no apparent discrimination between ACMA
5) ACMA accept low salaries to penetrate in to market