Accountancy Forum - interest and islam

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Dear Mobin and Whapaa

this is one of the topics which cannot be covered by way of discussion and that is the reason you haven't yet seen any CONCLUSIVE post from any member.

as a starting point i would advise you to understand the true meaning of RIBA/INTEREST and then build on ur knowledge about Islamic Banking System.

among my favourites

- RIBA (by Maulana Maudoodi) this will help you understand what Riba really is? and why prohibited in Islam?

- Islamic Banking by Maulana Taqi Usmani to understand the modes and basics of Islamic Financing.

thats not it, there are plenty of books/articles available in the market and over the internet which can help you decide what is RIGHT and what is WRONG and what is IN-BETWEEN. at the end of the day you will be respnsible for your own actions. please read the above books, if you dont understand anything please come back to the forum with ur exact queries and we will inshAllah help you out.

best regards

azeem

"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now."

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Azeem Shah Khan
 Dear Mobin and Whapaa

this is one of the topics which cannot be covered by way of discussion and that is the reason you haven't yet seen any CONCLUSIVE post from any member.

as a starting point i would advise you to understand the true meaning of RIBA/INTEREST and then build on ur knowledge about Islamic Banking System.

among my favourites

- RIBA (by Maulana Maudoodi) this will help you understand what Riba really is? and why prohibited in Islam?

- Islamic Banking by Maulana Taqi Usmani to understand the modes and basics of Islamic Financing.

thats not it, there are plenty of books/articles available in the market and over the internet which can help you decide what is RIGHT and what is WRONG and what is IN-BETWEEN. at the end of the day you will be respnsible for your own actions. please read the above books, if you dont understand anything please come back to the forum with ur exact queries and we will inshAllah help you out.

best regards

azeem

"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
salaam all...
as some one said..."WHERE THERE IS A WILL, THERE IS A WAY.."
SO, WHAT I THINK IS.., THAT WE SHOULD FIND THE WAY TO SOLVE SIMPLE PROBLEMS BY OUR SELVES...
THE GREAT BOOK OF HOLY QURAN guides you in everey way of life...
and also... clearly describes the meanings of INTEREST/ RIBA.
i think its good to understand what we recited some time..
i once used a software 3 years ago in my bachlors...
called "WINDOWS ALIM" WHAT THEY CALL "WORLDS MOST USEFUL ISLAMIC SOFTWARE...
IT CONTAINS ALL POPULAR HADITH BOOKS, AND ALSO OTHER NARRATIONS BY SAHABA KARAM
AND SPECIFICALLY.... 3 TRANSLATIONS OF "THE HOLY QURAN"
I HAD A PROJEST ON SIN AND INTEREST THAT TIME...

I DONT REMEMBER THE EXACT SURAH AND THE VERSE NO.
BUT A SUMMERY OF THE FINDINGS WITH THE HOLY BOOK'S TRANSLATION
IS AS FOLLOWS...
"WHEN ONE RETURNS THE BORROWED MONEY TO THE LENDER...
1- IF HE GIVES INTEREST with the ORIGINAL amount with PERSONAL INTENTION AND NO EXTERNAL PRESSURE OR (THE LENDER'S PRESSURE...)"
(ITS NEVER CALLED AS HARAAM and is completely fare and allowed buy islam)
on the other hand....
when ever there exists an element of "intention or pressure"
then its the opposite...
so.... the general INTEREST ON DEPOSIT IS NEVER BE CALLED AS HARAAM.
IF YOU WANT TO GIVE SOME PART OF THE BENEFIT/PROFIT YOU GET HAPPILY..
THEN I DONT THINK ITS ANY THING WRONG WITH IT...

IT VERY EASY TO BUY CD's for music etc...and so is to buy this CD's
(se the CD name above)
so..., DO CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG
coz we can never be perfect...
and the only perfect were the MESSENGERS sent by ALLAH and their teachings...

regards...
syedhassan..

ACCA

Dear Hasan

I won't say that i disagree with you, you rightly said that QURAN is the ultimate guide and we should consult Quran what it says about the topic. There is NO doubt whatsoever that it prohibits Riba, the issue is what RIBA really is? If i agree with your interpretation of Riba then it will become very difficult to prohibit most kinds of interest prevailing in the market, whether it is on a commercial loan or a personal/mortgage loan as in both the cases borrower is usually happy to pay the interest. For e.g I am a business man and i want a loan for xxxx amounts, i will be more than happy to pay interest on it because i know i will be able to ROLL OVER the lended money several times in a year thus able to generate money in excess of the interest rate (i hope you are aware with the concept of Velocity Of Money).

to cut the long story short, there is a need to understand the true meaning of Riba, and if possible avoid it as much as possible.

kind regards

"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now."

don;t want to say any thing b/c we r just a muslims not (MOMIEN)

mfarrukh.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Azeem Shah Khan
 Dear Hasan

I won't say that i disagree with you, you rightly said that QURAN is the ultimate guide and we should consult Quran what it says about the topic. There is NO doubt whatsoever that it prohibits Riba, the issue is what RIBA really is? If i agree with your interpretation of Riba then it will become very difficult to prohibit most kinds of interest prevailing in the market, whether it is on a commercial loan or a personal/mortgage loan as in both the cases borrower is usually happy to pay the interest. For e.g I am a business man and i want a loan for xxxx amounts, i will be more than happy to pay interest on it because i know i will be able to ROLL OVER the lended money several times in a year thus able to generate money in excess of the interest rate (i hope you are aware with the concept of Velocity Of Money).

to cut the long story short, there is a need to understand the true meaning of Riba, and if possible avoid it as much as possible.

kind regards

"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
hi back.. AZIM BHAI..
i just felt that i missed some thing in my post, as soon as i had clicked...but couldnt figure it out..
what i actually missed was...
"THE ONLY DIALLOWED IN ISLAM IS.. THE INTEREST ON LOAN OR THE MONEY LENT"
AND
"ITEREST ON DEPOSIT (AMANAT) ON THE OTHER HAND, IS FAIR AND PURE..
AS THE AMANAT REMAINS AMANAT and the INTEREST IS some PART OF the BENEFIT EARNED.."
AND ABOUT MR CANADA... HE ALSO SEEMS MUCH RIGHT, AS I SURELY... ONCE READ ABOUT INTEREST AND USERY IN THE TRANSLATION OF the HOLY QURAN..

I DONT SAY I'M ABSOLUTELY RIGHT,
COZ YOU KNOW UR NEVER PERFECT...
REGARDS...
SYEDHASSAN..

ACCA

[
hi back.. AZIM BHAI..
i feel it is'nt clear, please do help your self with this
"THE ONLY DISALLOWED IN ISLAM IS.. THE INTEREST ON LOAN OR, ON THE MONEY LENT"
AND
"ITEREST ON DEPOSIT (AMANAT) ON THE OTHER HAND, IS FAIR AND PURE..
AS THE AMANAT REMAINS AMANAT and the INTEREST IS some PART OF the BENEFIT EARNED.."
AND ABOUT MR CANADA... HE ALSO SEEMS MUCH RIGHT, AS I SURELY... ONCE READ ABOUT INTEREST AND USERY IN THE TRANSLATION OF the HOLY QURAN..

I DONT SAY I'M ABSOLUTELY RIGHT,
COZ YOU KNOW UR NEVER PERFECT...
REGARDS...
SYEDHASSAN..

ACCA
[/quote]

ACCA

Hello people

I have noticed the absence of some regular posters and I have also noticed the emergence and re-emergence of certain posters.

This is a medium to share information, no one is senior or junior to anybody and we all visit to learn and share information. Kindly do not make this place our national assembly (where you cant hear or say anything serious). Irresponsible behaviour is a trait needs eliminating otherwise it will definitely land you in to difficulty sooner or later in your professional and social life - - - Please help us to learn something from your experiences and knowledge.

For an understanding of interest and economy, one should read the Quran and the history and discuss it with as many people as possible. Ask everybody his/her understanding of the subject matter and then form your own opinion without taking sides (unbiased is a better word).

Azeem is correct, it cannot be discussed in one post or sitting, lets see if we are disciplined enough to even start thinking about this.

I thought and meant to ask if somebody knew how Pracs father is doing. He was not feeling well, is he ok now? May Allah bless him and everybody with good health.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Goodman
 Hello people

I have noticed the absence of some regular posters and I have also noticed the emergence and re-emergence of certain posters.

This is a medium to share information, no one is senior or junior to anybody and we all visit to learn and share information. Kindly do not make this place our national assembly (where you cant hear or say anything serious). Irresponsible behaviour is a trait needs eliminating otherwise it will definitely land you in to difficulty sooner or later in your professional and social life - - - Please help us to learn something from your experiences and knowledge.

For an understanding of interest and economy, one should read the Quran and the history and discuss it with as many people as possible. Ask everybody his/her understanding of the subject matter and then form your own opinion without taking sides (unbiased is a better word).

Azeem is correct, it cannot be discussed in one post or sitting, lets see if we are disciplined enough to even start thinking about this.

I thought and meant to ask if somebody knew how Pracs father is doing. He was not feeling well, is he ok now? May Allah bless him and everybody with good health.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
salaam...
my dear friend...
you could ask this streight forward...than a looooong discussion above...
and about my post,,,
i only posted my research some years back...and i did say that i might not be fully correct...maybee..
and i cant force you to follow you...
so, keep calm...
cheers...
syedhassan...
if you

ACCA

Code:
salaam...

my dear friend...

you could ask this streight forward...than a looooong discussion above...

and about my post,,,

i only posted my research some years back...and i did say that i might not be fully correct...maybee..

and i cant force you to follow you...

so, keep calm...

cheers...

syedhassan...

if you 

ACCA

?????

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Goodman

Code:
salaam...

my dear friend...

you could ask this streight forward...than a looooong discussion above...

and about my post,,,

i only posted my research some years back...and i did say that i might not be fully correct...maybee..

and i cant force you to follow...

so, keep calm...

cheers...

syedhassan...

ACCA

?????.....!!!!!(do check it out now now,was problem with some keys )
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

ACCA

Code:
salaam...

my dear friend...

you could ask this streight forward...than a looooong discussion above...

and about my post,,,

i only posted my research some years back...and i did say that i might not be fully correct...maybee..

and i cant force you to follow...

so, keep calm...

cheers...

syedhassan...

ACCA

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by syedhassan
 <blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by syedhassan
 <blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Goodman

Code:
salaam...

my dear friend...

you could ask this streight forward...than a looooong discussion above...

and about my post,,,

i only posted my research some years back...and i did say that i might not be fully correct...maybee..

and i cant force you to follow...

so, keep calm...

cheers...

syedhassan...

ACCA

?????.....!!!!!(do check it out now now,was problem with some keys )
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

ACCA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
hello there...
i think that, when people translate THE HOLY QURAN, evereyone forms his/her own meanings, that he/she understands...
and translating THE HOLY BOOK, correctly and as per the topic, needs much more..., as a singe AAYAH of the HOLY QURAN, may have many meanings and for different topics.
so, it depends...
regards...
syedhassan...

ACCA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
salaam all....
AZIM BHAI AND GOODMAN...please help your self with the following....
First of all, i think, all muslimes(regardless of sect) believe that.. THE LIFE OF HOLY PROPHET IS AN EMBODIMENT OF THE HOLY QURAN..
i found some thing interesting in SAHIH AL_BUKHARI...
PROPHET PAID AN "EXTRA AMOUNT" 

In the Sahih Al-Bukhari, under Hadith number 3579 narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah it is recorded that the Prophet repaid his debt that he owed Jabir plus he paid him "an extra amount". The scholars who do advocate "zero tolerance" explain; A borrower is permitted to pay an "extra amount" to the principal sum borrowed, while repaying his debt, provided it is given of his own free will and is not stipulated as a condition of the borrowing. Such a payment is neither Interest nor Riba.
One may tend to argue; it is likely that the above "extra amount" on the debt owing was paid by the Prophet before the Command for Riba was Revealed. Another may reason; since the Prophet was "giving" the "extra amount" and not taking "extra money", there was no iniquity.

THE LAW OF NECESSITY 

Under certain prescribed circumstances the prohibited things become permissible. Even a Haram food becomes Halal, if there is "dire necessity". That proves; in Islam there are exemptions to the Shari'a Laws depending upon the gravity of the necessity since Allah does not want His creation to bear a burden that it cannot. The questions often posed are Does the paying of a basic normal interest on a Government Loan for Education by a deserving student who cannot continue his studies without such a borrowing or by an employee whose job requires a car and the wages offered include a car allowance but the car has to be purchased from a bank loan, constitute as the grave necessities of life? Can cases similar to these from our daily lives be also qualified as the grave "necessities" of life? The question is Who can be the judge of such "exemptions"? And, where does he draw the line between the honest necessity and the deceitful circumventing?

regards..
syedhassan...

ACCA

UNDERSTANDING
"R I B A"
(Usury)

Note Riba happens to be one of the most difficult subjects for the last 1400 years, for Muslims as well as for the Muslim Scholars. Hence, I would appeal to my readers to read the entire article, understand the various issues with an open mind and then make their own decisions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE VERSES OF THE QUR'AN

Here are the verses on the subject of riba (usury)

Those who devour usury will not stand except as stands one whom the Evil One by his touch hath driven to madness. That is because they say "Trade is like usury but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord desist shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (the offence) are companions of the fire they will abide therein (for ever) 2 275
O ye who believe! fear Allah and give up what remains of your demand for usury if ye are indeed believers. 2 278

O ye who believe! devour not usury doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah; that ye may prosper.
Yusuf Ali's translation. 3 130

O ye who believe! Devour not usury, doubling and quadrupling (the sum lent). Observe your duty to Allah, that ye may be successful.
M. Pickthall's translation 3 130.

O believers! Do not live on usury (compound interest) which is compounded over and over again. Have fear of Allah so that you may prosper.
F. Malik's translation. 3 130

For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for
them certain (foods) good and wholesome which
had been lawful for them; in that they hindered
many from Allah's way. That they (Jews) took usury though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully; We have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.
4 160 - 161

Below is the Dictionary meaning of the word Usury

u-su-ry n. , pl. -ries [ME usurie < ML usuria < L usura < usus] the act or practice of lending money at a rate of interest that is excessive or exorbitant esp. at a rate of interest higher than is allowed by law

http//www.mostmerciful.com/riba.htm

---------------------------------------------
If I could... Then I would... Turn back time!!

Code:
Such a payment is neither Interest nor Riba

such payment is profit (share of profit) the principle of Modarba.

The provision under the Law of necessity are the exclusions only provided by Allah SBT. Even the Holy prophet did not provide any exclusions under the Law of Necessity. I dont think the law of necessity can be used to draw out exceptional circumstances and justify int/riba.

You dont have to scroll through loads of material to obtain the basic understanding of int.riba. Its the first quarter of the third para the provisions are crystal clear. The regulation mainly points to charging the int. while paying is left open.

Now its down to your own belief and acceptance as to how you wish to apply it in your own life.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Desert Sleet
 UNDERSTANDING
"R I B A"
(Usury)

Note Riba happens to be one of the most difficult subjects for the last 1400 years, for Muslims as well as for the Muslim Scholars. Hence, I would appeal to my readers to read the entire article, understand the various issues with an open mind and then make their own decisions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE VERSES OF THE QUR'AN

Here are the verses on the subject of riba (usury)

Those who devour usury will not stand except as stands one whom the Evil One by his touch hath driven to madness. That is because they say "Trade is like usury but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord desist shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (the offence) are companions of the fire they will abide therein (for ever) 2 275
O ye who believe! fear Allah and give up what remains of your demand for usury if ye are indeed believers. 2 278

O ye who believe! devour not usury doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah; that ye may prosper.
Yusuf Ali's translation. 3 130

O ye who believe! Devour not usury, doubling and quadrupling (the sum lent). Observe your duty to Allah, that ye may be successful.
M. Pickthall's translation 3 130.

O believers! Do not live on usury (compound interest) which is compounded over and over again. Have fear of Allah so that you may prosper.
F. Malik's translation. 3 130

For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for
them certain (foods) good and wholesome which
had been lawful for them; in that they hindered
many from Allah's way. That they (Jews) took usury though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully; We have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.
4 160 - 161

Below is the Dictionary meaning of the word Usury

u-su-ry n. , pl. -ries [ME usurie < ML usuria < L usura < usus] the act or practice of lending money at a rate of interest that is excessive or exorbitant esp. at a rate of interest higher than is allowed by law

http//www.mostmerciful.com/riba.htm

---------------------------------------------
If I could... Then I would... Turn back time!!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
hi there...
the purpose to post the above by SAHIH AL_BUKHARI and the following material,
is just to make an openion and bringe good knowledge.
yes... its need extreme care, while translating THE HOLY QURAN and later interpreting the meanings...and (i also did the same...)
consulting at-least five well known english and urdu translations....
that is a good variety of sects...
and then, also some good narrations...
and then i pasted here, as i never want to post without research and confirmation...
and about, bieng difficult for over what so ever 1400 years...
i dont think its difficult for any of the muslims from current and future, as well...
as, we make it difficult on our own at times..
but,i think we make it difficult on our own mostly, as we are divided to DIFFERENT SECTS etc.. UNDER THE SINGLE HEAD OF ISLAM "THE RELIGION OF THE COMPLETE and TRUE BOOK AND HOLY PROPHET (S.A.W)"
i think, the COMMON mistake we make in translating correctly, is following a much WORD-to-WORD... approach.
and i thnk...,
, we need to, go into our hearts and KEEP FAILTH AND also, A HONEST COMMITTMENT in resolving any issue we desire to AND KEEP IN MIND THAT "the HOLY QURAN IS THE HOLY BOOK for ALL TIMES AND ALL PEOPLE

Here are SOME OF the verses on the subject of riba (usury)that i studied

Those who devour usury will not stand except as stands one whom the Evil One by his touch hath driven to madness. That is because they say "Trade is like usury but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord desist shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (the offence) are companions of the fire they will abide therein (for ever) 2 275
O ye who believe! fear Allah and give up what remains of your demand for usury if ye are indeed believers. 2 278

O ye who believe! devour not usury doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah; that ye may prosper.
Yusuf Ali's translation. 3 130

O ye who believe! Devour not usury, doubling and quadrupling (the sum lent). Observe your duty to Allah, that ye may be successful.
M. Pickthall's translation 3 130.

O believers! Do not live on usury (compound interest) which is compounded over and over again. Have fear of Allah so that you may prosper.
(which is interest on an princpl+interest)
F. Malik's translation. 3 130

For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for
them certain (foods) good and wholesome which
had been lawful for them; in that they hindered
many from Allah's way. That they (Jews) took usury though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully; We have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.
4 160 - 161

Note The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek"). See the Old Testament Ex. 22 25;
Le. 25 36-37; De. 2319-20; Ne. 5 7/10; Ps. 15 5; Pr. 288

The dilemma before the Ummah is NOT for the actual Command of Allah (s.w.t.) that prohibits the devouring of usury (riba) and/or for the strict condemnation of those who devour it. The dilemma in reality is concerning the correct definition of the term riba and its application, which is quite clear, FOR EVEREYONE, who SEEK THE GUIDANCE...

and i think, those who LAKE CARE AND keep honest COMMITTMENT, FAITH AND ALL ABOVE..,
comment in CRITICISM to THE HOLY QURAN and SUNNA and
SAHIH AL_BUKHARI.. (which many respect in bieng correct with its NARRATIONS)
do read the EXPERT OPENIOS (CRITICISM) by some what SCHOLARS here....

THE TIMING OF THE REVELATION 

The following... so called excerpts from the commentaries to the above verses speak of the timing of the Revelations and the lack of opportunity for acquiring the knowledge of its Shar'i implications, from the Prophet

The commentary # 324 to verse 2 275, by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

Usury is condemned and prohibited in the strongest possible terms. There can be no question about the prohibition. When we come to the definition of Usury there is room for difference of opinion. Hadhrat 'Umar, according to Ibn Kathir, felt some difficulty in the matter, as the Apostle left this world before the details of the question were settled. This was one of the three questions on which he wished he had more light from the Prophet.
The commentary # 35 to verse 30 39, by Scholar Mohammad Asad
Mohammad Asad writes; In the words of Ibn Kathir (in his commentary on 2 275), "the subject of riba is one of the most difficult subjects for many of scholars (ahl al-'ilm)". It should be borne in mind that the passage condemning or prohibiting riba in legal terms [{2 275-281}] was the last revelation received by the Prophet, who died a few days later [cf. note [268] on 2 281; hence the Companions had no opportunity to ask him about the Shar'i implications of the relevant injection - so much so that even 'Umar ibn al-Khattab is reliably reported to have said "The last [of Qur'an] that was revealed was the passage [lit., "the verse"] on riba; and, behold, the Apostle of God passed away without [lit., "before"] having explained its meaning to us" [Ibn Hambal, on the authority of Sa'id ibn al-Musayyab].

regards..
syedhassan...

ACCA

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