Abb ACCA k Bad log CA ko monh Nahien Lagaengae.

Abb ACCA k Bad log CA ko monh Nahien Lagaengae. - Printable Version

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- accountingunlimited - 04-12-2008

Dear Friends
I think it is good that we are identifying areas for improvements. As I mentioned earlier at other forum that after teaching both ACCA and ICAP students I found that no doubt the education structure and paper setting of ACCA is far more better than ICAP. I know many very senior teachers (FCAs) recommend ACCA papers for practice to ICAP students for exam preparation.
Now coming to the professional development, I would like to mention that before professional development it is important to get some personal development. This I recommend both to ACA and ACCA students/members. I agree with Amir that ACCA management is not doing enough for them. I would like to ask that what actions you (ACCA students) have taken to push them to arrange events and seminars for you guys. I am sure if you bring this matter in the knowledge of ACCA Head Office, they will take immediate action. I remember few years ago the ACCA students were unhappy about the services of ACCA office at karachi. They complained against it and the then incharge found reasonable to quit instead of removal by ACCA.
As far as employer market is concerned, unless ACCA members take key posts in good organisations, the situation will remain same. If in an organisation key posts are held by ACAs/MBAs then forget that there are good chances for ACCA students/members generally speaking.
It is very important to cover point 1 because it is a root of most of the other problems, for that personal development is crucial.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards

- Schuaeb - 04-12-2008

Everything on similar subject starts a similar debate.

Coming of ICAEW in Pakistani can be taken as an opportunity by ACCAs. Those (ACCAs) who intend to remain in Pakistan ACCA + ICAEW + ICAP will be a good combination and perhaps it would be easier than the earlier route available ACCA + ICAP. However, still things can't be as easily done as said. This route may be cost prohibitive as well for many.

If we are discussing opportunities outside Pakistan the debate will be altogether a different story. In this case ACCA and articles from big 4 may be worthy. In Pakistan comparison of ACCA and CA is never required, those who have any idea may very well understand the difference. And this is not only the practicing issue that makes the difference.

Another point very often raised by ACCA student is that they claim they study a much comprehensive syllabus and their examination standard is much better. Now this may be very well a matter of personal judgment and it will not be easy to prove things by arguments.

The point missed in this thread so far is how ICAEW will affect CA students. Old professionals are not going to be affected by any means, similarly as Kamran mentioned for members like him itâs only a matter of choice and no compulsion at all. However, things may be a bit different for current ICAP's students. In coming years they will have to face more competition as I reckon a large no. of ACCAs will go for ICAEW. And how things will settle the future will tell.

Regards
Shoaib

- Muhammad Amir - 04-13-2008

Dear Accounting Unlimited,

You have used the word "Personal Development" more than one time in you previous post, May i respectfully ask you to elaborate this word further for students like me.

I and other students of ACCA will be thankful to you.

As far as shoaib's concerns over ICAP's future are concerned i would say "SUBHA KA BHOLA SHAM KO GHAR A HE GYA", definitely things will not be in favor in near future for ICAPs Practitioners.

One thing that has been impliedly taken by my previous posts is that i do not accept ICAPs worth, in order to remove this confusion about me i on the record say that ICAP is still one of the best Accountancy Body in the World and the members of this body has really proved the worth of Pakistanies in whole world especially in Middle East and UK.

I salute to All ACAs, FCAs of this body, they are really hard working people and i and other pakistanies are proud of them, although these great people do not need my words.

Regards,

Muhammad Amir

- Schuaeb - 04-13-2008

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Muhammad Amir
 
One thing that has been impliedly taken by my previous posts is that i do not accept ICAPs worth, in order to remove this confusion about me i on the record say that ICAP is still one of the best Accountancy Body in the World and the members of this body has really proved the worth of Pakistanies in whole world especially in Middle East and UK.

I salute to All ACAs, FCAs of this body, they are really hard working people and i and other pakistanies are proud of them, although these great people do not need my words.

Regards,

Muhammad Amir

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now may I say that you have taken much time before admitting reality, and during the meanwhile innumerable futile debates wasted a lot of time on this forum. And just to add here nothing has been impliedly taken by anyone, your emphatic point of view in this regard has been seen a number of times.

Or I should I take it as just another U turn of approach like MMA politicians, the following parts of your post suggests that later is the case.
<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Muhammad Amir
 
As far as shoaib's concerns over ICAP's future are concerned i would say "SUBHA KA BHOLA SHAM KO GHAR A HE GYA", definitely things will not be in favor in near future for ICAPs Practitioners.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A little bit or a great deal of contradiction in the very same post. I have no idea that how that maxim can be associated with my concern.

I think I should clarify my concern further, it was intended to take the opinion of members on foreseeable competition which future ICAP's members may face.

If your approach i.e. SUBHA KA BHOOLA... bala bala is taken correct then I think it will be fine for ICAP's members that after all they are home, but what is gonna be future of ACCAs who do not opt to for Chartered Accountancy or any other reputed qualification. I mean to say in Pakistan they will worth a bit more than b.coms. I think you may have an idea of current market situation and in future situation it is very likely to get worsen for ACCAs. I don't want to prove that ACCA is worthless but my suggestion for ACCA student who plan to seek career in Pakistan is that they should go for further qualification after ACCA. As ACCA alone may not very well serve the purpose of getting some prestigious position in the job market.

- accountingunlimited - 04-14-2008

Dear Amir thank you very much for your post.
You have inquired my prespective of personal development. Well in a nut shell I would like to describe it to change one's thinking pattern from conventional one. For example the points mentioned in your post regarding ACCA students/affiliates about complexity, focus on big 4, fear of failure (point 10)etc.
Do you know Mr. Kazim Abbas started teaching way back in 1998 on Khalid Bin Waleed road over a car showroom (not the current one) in a small place with less than 5 students in his class? At the same time he was competing with Mr.Sharif Tabani, Mr. M.Siddiq and many others. And now you know better.
You might be surprised to know that the current institute of Mr.Kazim Abbas was the TSA few years ago. Now you know the scale of TSA.
On the other hand if you look at CMS it is almost of same size and quality which it was in 1996.
Why is the difference?
The difference is of positive thinking, determination and self belief. So anyone, from any field or professional body can achieve same fame and success like of another. Provided that they can identify what is stopping him from doing so and they have courage to take step to rectify that.
If you are more interested in exploring your potential, I would higly recommend you take few free introductory programs at www.fist-institute.com.
Many thank
Kind Regards

- Muhammad Amir - 04-14-2008

Dear Accounting Unlimited,

Thanks for your clarification and i also relate your post to answer shoaib's post as personal development is necessary for CAs also and for every one including ACCAs.

Shoaib has asked that i have taken too much time to realize that members of ICAP are our asset and that they are representative of pakistan in the whole world.

The answer to this question is that i have praised ICAP members not ICAP polices they both are different things and must be seen in different perspectives. Shoaib will agree with me on this point that most of the ICAP members and current students are also against their policies(and he is also one of them).

I hope shoaib that your efforts to mix-up some simple things did not work here.

You are asking about the future of ACCAs.

It is also very simple to understand for anyone as long as he tries to understand things in the state of what they are not in the state of what they have to be?

Except Audit Profession ACCA's future is bright here in pakistan, I ask him about the future of ICAP in fields except audit.

ACCAs usually qualify this profession with 3 years of internship at the age of 24 to 25 on the other hand CA students qualify on an average at the age of 30 to ____.

So Mr Shoaib can you compare the worth of a young professionals of ACCA and your ACAs of 30s,40s,50s and so on; apparently this difference of years will allow ACCAs to pursue some other qualifications even they can be able to do specialization in any field but what about CAs?????? a huge question mark .

One thing that is still out of my apprehension is that what is something special in ICAP which made current students and trainees of ICAP so proud on them even after knowing the fact that their policy making group have seen "NOUSHTA-E-DEWAR".

Regards,

Muhammad Amir

- 4thelement - 04-14-2008

Dear all

i am totally agreed with amir's opinion but dear am seeking career in audit profession thats why am concerned with the market of ACCA's, they are no doubt at par in terms of skills, knowledge and professionalism with CA's and they have better future opportunities and as they are progressing they will definately replace many of the members of ICAP atleast but again i wud say as i mentioned earlier in my post these monoply guyz will never let us being part of the audit firms, well i cant understand that an acca member studied same audit and financial reporting paper infact a better one which an ICAP member has studied has to wait for five years or more after becoming a member i.e qualification + 3yrs articles to become a manager at a reputable audit firm and thats why am in favour of qualifying as an ICAP member to be able to sign audit reports as its a law in Pakistan.

regards

- 4thelement - 04-14-2008

Bravo effort by amir
i have never compared exam papers of ICAP and ACCA, its really heartning to know that ACCA's education standard and setting of exam paper is far better than ICAP and another myth created by ICAP's students is that they delibrately fails their students in order to improve the standard of ICAP in local industry, how ridiculous and disgusting approach.

regards

- kamranACA - 04-14-2008

Dears,

ACCA basically related to a market where financial products and issues, in practice, are at advanced stage than Pakistan. Every thing comes to the developing countries after some gap of time.

Dr. Salam's theory (although he was a Pakistani) found place in Pakistani study materials after almost 15 to 20 years and even then it is in very short form although it has shaked the theory of Sir Ein Stien. This cannot change the reality that such theory was developed by a Pakistani mind. This fact shows the time gap which we have with other nations.

Due to such facts, those nations are taking lead from us in development of various concepts. Why ACCA text is more advanced in so-called options/convertibles/bonds/hedges/modes of financing / derivatives and other such areas, is due to the reason that such things are practically adopted and are in use by some nations and still we are far behind even in its practice. I am saying "even in practice". As people say that CFA (which is far ahead) has lesser market in Pakistan (although at this very moment I donât agree with this statement) was only due to lesser amount of practice of such concepts in Pakistani markets.

Since necessity is mother of invention, whenever a product is introduced in the market, people start exploring it. However, since ICAP is well versed with International requirements, it has included in its curriculum the required areas to make its members well informed about all such products. None of ICAP members would be ignorant of such developments.

So if in some areas, we as a nation are behind them, it's not an allegation specific to ICAP. ICAP is still having great pace to develop itself as compared to other fields. Just check out what ICMAP is doing as compared to CIMA.

However, I don't agree to those who feel there is some prejudice used by ICAP in declaring results. It must not be called a disgusting approach. Yes, calling it this way is quite disgusting from a person who at the moment is nothing in his own. This would merely be a state of "grapes are sour" and nothing else. Believe you me.

I had been a student of ICAP and I must say I never got failure when I knew I have done well in exams and I never got success when I knew that my performance was not satisfactory or up to the required standard. I give this statement feeling my GOD in front of me. I never felt that any of my results in the whole CA was not as per expectation.

This is the matter of self appraisal. I know so manys even in my close circle that oftenly say that "Our performance was outstanding but we had to face the failure and we don't know what has happened" and whenever I listen such comments I donât find a way to control smile on my face.

So dears blaming ICAP for its result declaring policies is a lame excuse to satisfy own minds. It has nothing to do with facts. Believe you me. Only those people do it who have not been successful in getting this qualification or the ones who have embedded fear of failure in their minds.

Just for instance

I never saw a CA qualified who entered CA just for the reason that he could not got through ACCA exams. (Have you guys such examples with you???).

Yes, I can quote many ACCAs qualified as example who entered ACCA just for the reason that they could not make both ends meet in CA exams. Do any one has some doubt?????

Do you feel that the people who qualify ICAP exams are relatives of ICAP authorities. What an approach to mix-up the things. If some one is not upto the mark, he declares the policies and procedures as responsible for his failure. Yaar why don't you people grow up to make a better self appraisal and improve your own deficiencies.

I wonder how the people who cannot get through from the so-called easy (HALWA) exams of CA can manage to pass the most advanced, difficult and knowledgeable ACCA and then find no other way to criticise ICAP policies. ICAP has its own criteria and standard and it does not allow any one to over rule the passing criteria. If some one has that level, he gets qualified and if some one does not have he does not. Even I faced failure in ICAP exam and I surely know it was deficiency on my part when I faced it. There was no fault on ICAP's side. I have no doubt over it.

However, I place on record that these lines don't aim at undermining the importance of any other qualification. ACCA "could" be a very good qualification as well. I only said what we typically see in Pakistan and if some one feels the situation contrary to this analysis then why he talks about leaving Pakistan. This advice has not come from ICAP students. Mind it.

Some one said here, that ACCA people should plan to leave Pakistan, (I don't say this), yes, there could be some good market for Pakistani ACCAs in UAE or else but even that will not be matchable to CAs. I can prove it with figures.

This has nothing to do with which curriculum is better. This is to recall the figures and facts. If any body wishes I can give the comparison at UAE.

Rest assured at UK local ACCAs are in abundance (as accountancy field is considered easier in UK) and there is lesser room for Pakistani ACCAs. I don't say there is no room. Rather I say there is lesser room. Even some Pakistani ACCAs having firms in UK don't wish to employee Pakistani ACCAs. Check out with such firms to get the proof.

If somebody feels that all what I say is incorrect then he must keep on having such feelings. I will appreciate any one's strong stance over his ideas.

The biggest issue of ACCAs (in Pakistan) is that they don't look forward to have a good utility without qualifying CA either it is from ICAEW or ICAP or else. Why it is so? This should be analyzed. Why should we not concentrate on this fact rather than talking on other aspects.

Some one said here that leaving AUDIT behind, what is left for ICAP members. I can only request such fellow to open his eyes. ACCAs must not at the moment talk this way for two reasons. Firstly, they are straightforwardly the neonates in this economy. Secondly, they are facing very tough competition which will in my view not let them take the lead even in next 50 years. I don't at this stage wish to see beyond this time limit. I am talking about ACCAs and not about "ACCA plus CA from ICAEW plus CA from ICAP" etc. Mind it !!! Check the markets and don't get into simple battle of words. Check what is happening in fact.

One other important thing. Did we ever see any conflict of ideas between CAs of ICAP and CAs or CPAs of any other institute. Should we not find reasons for this fact?

I know nothing improved should be expected.

Best regards,

KAMRAN.

- 4thelement - 04-15-2008

Dear Kamran bhai

u may be right on many debates
firstly i want to know the comparisons of pakistani CAs and ACCAs at UAE then
and as far as UK is concerned i know the ACCA members who are working for PWC london office and one of my senior colleague at BDO is working at Deloitte Dublin, he is also an acca member and another fellow is working for EnY Canada he is also a member of CGA and CICA, so it all depends upon an individual not on a body, but there are some features and characteristics which are attached like a stigma to an association or organisation and that is the case with icap it teaches its students to play monoply and always be prejudiced.

- 4thelement - 04-15-2008

and wat i said in my earlier posts is that "its a myth created by ICAP students" not the ICAPs management and i know that all these students are ridiculous and disgusting in their approach who blames the institute after underporfming in exams.

- 4thelement - 04-15-2008

Most of the ACCA students who wish to work in public practice are willing to obtain otherwise there isnt any need for such qualification coz without getting it under our belts v cant be partners in any firm, this is the only reason why we r more interested in obtaining ICAEW and ICAP the individuals willing to work in industry are not concerned about ICAP and ICAEW at all

- 4thelement - 04-15-2008

well there are some examples with CA students as well who did not joined acca coz they thought its very difficult to pass, coz there are some papers who qualified ICAP members do not opt for like Advanced audit and assurance, advanced financial management, etc

- kamranACA - 04-15-2008

Dear,

First of all let me tell what I mean by saying Pakistani ACCAs. This means ACCAs who did ACCA while living in Pakistan and utilizing Pakistani facilities and then, after qualifying going abroad to find jobs. This does not include Pakistanies who go abroad, get admission and become well versed with that environment and find opportunities. In fact I never particularly discuss this category in any of my post.

Secondly, I already said in my earlier post that such acceptance for Pakistani ACCAs is quite lesser. I specifically added that it cannot be said that there is no such case.

The guys who get articles in UK either for CA or ACCA are luckiest and in most of the cases have very strong backgrounds. No body can negate this fact. I told you the general situation of UK where I said accountancy, and specially ACCA, is considered easier than other high profile professions at UK. Even those who wish to do it under ICAEW normally go to Malaysia or else to find training placements.

Furthermore, the profession specific satisfactory jobs are more complex issue than getting a training arrangement and my earlier post was by and large pin pointing job opportunities of Pakistani ACCAs at UK because you have proposed ACCAs to leave Pakistan and UAE / UK are typical destinations for such persons.

In CANADA, CGA is a prestigious qualification. ACCA cannot have comparison with it in CANADA so this example does not suit at all. The others two/three are understandable but those guys must have a very strong background and family set up.

Almost 202 ICAP members are working at UAE. Members of other CA institutes of various countries are also working over there. Any qualified professional (from any professional body) is quite acceptable at UAE and at the outset the remunerations do not materially variate. Almost fresh qualified CAs and ACCA get ranging from 10,000 to 18,000 depending upon situation. If I am not taken to have monoplistic views, again the higher of this range is for CAs.

However, the experienced CAs (stand alone) earn much better than experienced ACCAs (stand alone). This difference generally reaches even 100% or more in some cases. Experienced ACCAs, I have observed earning upto 25K to 30K in UAE per month. To this comparison, I have seen large amount of instances where experienced CAs (Pakistani and ICAEW) are earning beyond 45K and even 60K per month in UAE, Behrain and KSA etc. (Exchange rates almost similar). Yes, one can find such rare instances of ACCAs as well but in number these are far lesser than CAs of this range.

This observation is for stand alone qualifications. From stand alone I mean CA who does not have any other qualification except CA and ACCA who is also only ACCA.

I can give names of highy profiled / elevated CAs (of various institutes) in great number at UAE but it would be un-ethical to use names on such forums. That's why I prefer to avoid doing this. However, if things will require proof, something further could be discussed keeping the discussion within the boundries of professional ethics.

At the end I again clarify that I am not carrying any monoplisic issues with such qualifications. If you feel ACCA is your destination, you must do it. You must have analysed your requirements and expectations. You may have other professional goals as well. My posts are only for those who don't have the proper info to make a decision and specifically for those who typically wish to make a place within the homeland. However, I don't need to mis-paint the situation beyond the homeland as well.

Best regards,

KAMRAN.

- 4thelement - 04-16-2008

Dear kamran bhai
All of the individuals i mentioned in my earlier post have qualified ACCA while living in Pakistani and the one whose working for Deloitte Dublin is from a remote area Thar somewhere near hyderabad and badin, again i wud say it all depends upon an individual rather than a body and for ur kind information ACCA members are fully exempted by CGA Canada u can check it at CGA's website and u talked about malaysia, MICPA is offering ACCA members complete exemption they only have to sit for tax paper and same is the case wid SICPA u can browse the URLs of both the institutes

regards