+- Accountancy Forum (https://www.accountancy.com.pk/forum)
+-- Forum: The Profession (https://www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/forum-the-profession)
+--- Forum: Students (https://www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/forum-students)
+--- Thread: Is ICMAP bigger than CIMA? (/thread-is-icmap-bigger-than-cima)
- awaisaftab - 12-03-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by yasir_live</i>
<br />Well with regards to your question! " Is ICMAP is Bigger than CIMA "
I would say yes ICMAP is bigger than CIMA, which is I think very Clear!
See closely!!! AND understood the fact given below, And decide for yourself
ICMAP = 5 Alphabets...........WhereaS
CIMA = 4 Alphabets...........Hence Proved.
Hope, that I helped you.
Regards.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yasir good perception.
- tariqsohail - 12-04-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by yasir_live</i>
<br />Well with regards to your question! " Is ICMAP is Bigger than CIMA "
I would say yes ICMAP is bigger than CIMA, which is I think very Clear!
See closely!!! AND understood the fact given below, And decide for yourself
ICMAP = 5 Alphabets...........WhereaS
CIMA = 4 Alphabets...........Hence Proved.
Hope, that I helped you.
Regards.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Good analysis Yasir..keep on this approach definitely you will go a long way.
Regards,
Sohail
- kamranACA - 12-16-2009
Awais
Story has vanished. Do you notice?
It's a nice gesture from moderators to control indecency on this forum.
Regards,
Kamran.
- umair_cma - 01-24-2010
As far as i feel ( my personal viws) there is a bias amonst the lawmakers of Pakistan about CMA,s.I am saying it because in all the countries of the world the cost audit is only done by the CMA<s but is Pakistan CA,s also has authrity to do cost audit. It is wrong in my point of view.
What are your views.
And i also hope that ICAP would allow to change its name to be Charterd Mnagement accountants.
Regards,
- awaisaftab - 02-08-2010
Well, umair good question raised by you.
No Lawmakers are not biased if we go through the legal framework of financial and corporate laws we find that usually law making is not initiated by the Members of Parliament. The MOP are much interested in constitutional amendments and other laws relating to political, tax or revenue, social and religious issues. Actually the regulatory bodies formulate the drafts and forward these drafts to Ministry of Law. In more than 90% case the commercial, corporate and business law approved by the Parliment word by word as recommended by regulators.
As we discuss the profession of cost and management accountancy in Pakistan then we should keep it in mind that the concept of cost audit was introduced in 1998 through enactment of Companies (Audit of Cost Accounts) Rules 1998 and surprisingly the right of cost audit was also assigned to Charted Accountants. So while comparing CMA profession with any other profession we should keep it in mind that although ICMAP had established in 1951 but we came in market with audit rights and some power in 1998 and in later years. In September, 2009 or in latter months the full fledge tax audit rights were assigned to ACMAâs..So we can say that CMA profession is new in the country (in my view we are right to say it). Contrarily ICAP was established by Federal Govt after some years of establishment of ICAP but CAâs have audit right for many decades before CMAâs.
This is why even some qualified persons do not know about CMAâs( So it is suggested by some CMAâs that the name of ICMA should be changed it should be Institute of Chartered Management Accountants of Pakistan and the designation of Associate/Fellow Chartered Management Accountant should be assigned to CMAâs) . But we are making our space in the competitive job market as we move further the regulator and lawmakers will Compulsive to assign more and more powers to CMAâs.
I am still optimistic about the future of cost and management accountants in the country.
- tariqsohail - 02-09-2010
One should be optimistic because this is the only force which can take us to upward stage.
Though movement is pretty slow but one day things will change.
- kamranACA - 02-09-2010
Awais
To be more precise, it's not Tax Audit Right. Such rights have not been given to any one including even CAs as people normally construe about generalized practicing rights.
For Tax audits CMAs have been given an eligibility (like CAs), on the prerogative of FBR for making an appointment. Right rests with FBR and not with any generalized clients of CAs or CMAs (in practice) to make such appointment.
Making CMAs eligible is good but we cannot name even a few good CMA firms in Pakistan having desired number of partners, qualified and support staff, number of offices, other resources to carry out audit practice, and international renowned affiliation etc that are pre-requistes to establish audit practice in this age. Certainly we are not living in dark ages.
ICMAP has not introduced any quality assurance system so far to ensure the effective and positive usage of any such eligibility. Can any of you explain any such self-regulation introduced?
Personally I am in favor of open competition. This, in my view, clarifies so much which otherwise remains hidden behind the walls of grouses and complaints.
I always have been requesting all aspirant ACCAs and CMAs that if they wish to get some thing then at least try to prove yourself. For professional accountants, Audit is not the only one facet of carrying out business and practice. There is lot more to do on advisory and consultancy side. I can here let you know 100 avenues of professional practice. Why they don't first establish such practices, combine resources, get affiliations, implement internal quality assurance system and procedures and (may be at some later stage) ask ICMAP (or local chapter of ACCA in their case) to institute such external quality assurance system as well.
When this all will be in place, people will be bound to look at these professionals as well. Without doing this all, if some one will complaint, it will be wastage of time.
You know what happened in tax audits for tax year 2008 (latest audit appointments being made by FBR these days). CMAs might have been given any eligibility but in practice not even a single audit has been allocated to any CMA or his firm. I said not even a single audit. To me reasons are obvious. CMA firms don't carry resources to do it. There may be one or two firms working on any specific front but one has to see their strength and resources. What eligibility will do in such circumstances?
So, dears one has to endeavor to get what he believes he should get.
I hope time has come when CMAs and the institute should make innovative changes, change the direction, discard worthless politics at institute level that we see in elections, focus on strengthened practices, self regulation system, quality assurance system, audit procedures development, proper training of professionals being produced (that is vital and is most ignored todate) and lot more. This will fetch the results which CMAs are looking for.
Keeping yourself distanced from improvements, developments, changes, and requisites that are vital to do something cannot produce good results.
I request to readers not to take it negatively. This in fact is the only recourse.
And yes, no one is doing any injustice. If you will read this post carefully and honestly, then you will certainly realise what is resposnible for the things you are discussing.
Wishing you all best future.
Regards,
Kamran.
- awaisaftab - 02-09-2010
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tariqsohail</i>
<br />One should be optimistic because this is the only force which can take us to upward stage.
Though movement is pretty slow but one day things will change.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
@ Tariq Sohail
Yes,although the things are changing slowly but I am optimistic that in near future we prove ourselves.
@ kamran
Mr.Kamran, good points have been raised by you. I will reply you in near future. Would you like to respond my post that was posted by me on the thread relating to result of ICAP .
Regards,
Awais Aftab
- tariqsohail - 02-09-2010
Dear Awais,
I don't think Mr. Kamran raise any new point, because everybody having different opinion, every institute have different approach. I guess its pretty easy to raise few points from outside but the real sense of the situation can be realized when you are part of that situation.
Though ICMAP is not going as fast as we need or want but it is also not like what Mr. Kamrran portrait in the above post.
- awaisaftab - 02-09-2010
Dear Tariq
I am 100% agree with you.I was saying that good points raised by Kamran in the sense that he is talking about the establishment of quality review programe by ICMAP like ICAP's Quality Review Programe for Audit Firms. If ICMAP initiate the Quality Review Programe for Cost Audit Firms then the CA firms conducting cost audit will also liable to follow the guidelines of ICMAP and will also answerable to the institute. I am not expecting that this situation will be ideal for ICAP.
- Ajnabi - 02-10-2010
Dears,
Chartered Accountants and Management/cost Accountant should never be compared with each other in such a way as has been done in the foregoing posts, since both of the fields are different and should have no concern with each other. CAs are considered better option as far as the Audit of financial accounts is concerned, similarly, there is no alternative option available except to avail services of CMA as far as the Management Accountancy or cost Audit is concerned.
Within the special context of pakistan, CMAs are given less preference over CAs of pakistan in so many cases due to many disclosed and undisclosed reasons including no mandatory training requirement of CMAs stipulated in the CMA Act, if the mandatory requirement of training is started in pakistan in CMAs' firms then no reason to keep ICAP on the upper hand, since both of the institute provides very well professionals, the close subtitute of which is quite remote, specially in pakistan.
However, ICMAP is getting advanced by it's day to day efforts and have been in a position to be compared with ICAP, as far as the knowledge, syllabus, prestigiousness and production of quality students is concerned, and due to the same, ICMAP is being backed by Law, be it corporate laws or tax laws, in future, it is hoped that ICMAP would further change its strategies to make itself in line with internation stardards.
Last but not least, they should never be compared with each other, however, unfortunately in pakistan, ICAP considers it self as a big brother of ICMAP just due to the reasons that they are given preference on strategy formulation at national level, i.e. be it SECP or FBR, however, future of ICMAP would certainly change the views of ICAP provided that similar efforts are put in by ICMAP in future.
- awaisaftab - 02-10-2010
I will write my comments on tomorrow.
Regards,
Awais Aftab
- kamranACA - 02-10-2010
Awais / Tariq / Ajnabi
I wonder if I portrayed anything that is not factual or was based upon any biase. If some one will come up with any thing specific in my post along with his criticism, I will certainly let him know the basis of my conclusion. And yes, be informed I am not the outsider since I am very much in public practice both on financial and cost sides. I am here to logically defend what I wrote.
I invite discussion on every line of my above post so far it can be of usefulness and of purpose for the readers and is based upon facts and not upon dreams or wishes. Either it is about "tax audit right", "CMA firms in Pakistan and their resources and offices", "none of the tax audits allocated to CMA by FBR in the latest allocations", "some of useful suggestions for estblishing practices and polishing the name of such practices", "development of audit procedures", "self regulation", or "quality control implementation and review system both iinternal and extrenal" etc etc.
However, I am not wishing to start purposeless debate. I was wishing all professionals to adopt required procedures for being instrumental and for acheiving desired targets. I again place on record that every one should be given a chance to prove his-self. However, for achieving this target some of the meat should be depcited by the home work done.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- kamranACA - 02-10-2010
Awais,
You agreed 100% to Tariq where he said that
QUOTE
I don't think Mr. Kamran raise any new point, ..............Though ICMAP is not going as fast as we need or want but it is also not like what Mr. Kamran portrait in the above post.
UNQUOTE
You have clarified what you meant by saying that "Good Points Have Been Raised". However, you did not mention (very much like Tariq) that which bad (incorrect) points I have raised? Afterall you are agreeing 100% without telling us the sort-comings.
I would love to see on which points of my post you tend to agree with Tariq.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- kamranACA - 02-10-2010
(This post is written to clarify an ambiguity so please no body should feel offended)
Dear Ajnabi
It was nice to read your comments. I, however, have a question for you which I hope you would not mind to clarify.
For being professional specialist of a given field there can be contribution of two important most factors. The first is academic and professional education specific to such profession and its specailization. The other one is intensive practical training which provides learning, experience, exposure and so much. When both these elements are combined, a specialist is produced. You can take examples of any field you like and analyse what I am saying.
You have written in your post that
"CAs are considered better option as far as the Audit of financial accounts is concerned, similarly, there is no alternative option available except to avail services of CMA as far as the Management Accountancy or cost Audit is concerned"
I hope you will not disagree on the ingredients that make up a quality professional specialist in a given field. So, I request you to enhance our knowledge and understanding on the other part of your remarks that what makes our CMAs best cost audit and management accounting professionals.
I mean is it their curriculum (have you gone through the curriculums of both CA and CMA particular to Cost and Management Accounting and Auditing)? or some specific training arrangement that the CAs miss during their training tenure?
Please note, I am not denying what you have mentioned. I am just wishing to have some what further clarification on your view point. By doing so you may help us to focus on training aspects or even curricular aspects you find deficient in CAs. In contrast may this post help you to understand that falls out of the normal frame of thought.
I look forward to you to share your experience and understanding with us.
Best regards,
KAMRAN.