Dr. Aamir Liaqat - Printable Version

Dr. Aamir Liaqat - Printable Version

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- smraza - 11-03-2004

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Yes I agree there will be 73 sects but then again like I said before we are living in an age of fitnas and it is not easy to live. It is our duty to find the right sect nobody will come and tell you that this sect is on the right path. You have to find it for yourself and for that you have to look into the Quran and Sunnah.
I would say that your knowledge regarding fiqh and sects is very weak like most of the people.
Whoever is on the right path one thing is for sure that no religion teaches you to curse, send lanats, give abuses, disgrace the great companions of Holy Prophet(PBUH) and Umhatulmomineen (RA) except shia ithna ashri.
One golden rule of following a sect is to follow the majority for Allah never let majority of Muslims to stray. So whoever is on majority stick to it. There is also a hadith regarding it.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yes, aliweb, i agree that my knowledge regardign figh and sects is very weak, and i also agree no religion teaches you to curse, send lanats, give abuses, disgrace the great companions of Holy Prophet(PBUH) and Umhatulmomineen,
but dear I would like to add, that ISLAM also prohibits to curse, send lanats, give abuses, disgrace ANYONE (irrespective of his religion), not just the companions of Rasool e Akram.

I have many shia friends, but i donot bear such hatred for them, bcaz i have discussed many things with them regarding their views, to some i agree and to some i dont...

We have some hadiths in our Sihaah e Sitta, by reading those, everybody becomes suspicious about our religion.

and Dear, dont be so agressive about the sects......

The sect which you follow, just tell me dear, WHAT IS YOUR RESEARCH FOR THE ADOPTION OF YOUR SECT????????????????????????NIL
You follow your sect just because YOU WAS BORN BETWEEN THE FOLLOWERS OF THAT SECT.
so dear, dont be agressive,
I REPEAT AGAIN, JUST GO TO THE ANY SHIA MULLA WITH A VIEW THAT IF U WILL QAIL HIM OR OTHERWISE YOU WILL ADOPT HIS SECT

SMR

- Azeem Shah Khan - 11-03-2004

Dear Ali and SMRaza

I dont agree with either of you regarding sects. i dont believe in any sect. i am not going to discuss this over this forum. should you want a constructive discussion please email me on

azeem@accamail.com

Regards

azeem

"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now."

- smraza - 11-04-2004

Dear Azeem,
I myself personally dont believe on the sects, as i told earlier i dont even call myself a muslim...
I dont offer namaz, i dont keep roza, i never go to mosques, but what i try to do is not to harm anybody by any of my act. and thats.
Now why I dont call myself muslim, just bcaz of these kind of people, who always keep mud throwing on each others,
like haath bandh kar namaz kion parhta hai? woh shalwar oonchi kion bandta hai, woh yeh kion karta hai woh kion karta hai, all rubbish,

Once i met Dr. Ghulam Malik Murtaza, he gave very good remarks about the sectarian debates.......he said
"99% of todays muslim who talk about the various sects, like this sect is right and that is wrong, all of them protecting the doings of their ancestors, Suppose if u ask somebody that why he keep open his arms during namaz, he will say 'just bcaz my dad and grandpa did so' "

and the sectarian debate can never be constructive.

SMR

- aliweb - 11-04-2004

Brother AvgJoe, belive me I have no misconception about shias. I have crystal clear view of what there beliefs are. I have got PROOFS from there OWN SOURCES which no body can DENY.
If you have some misconceptions about them then please visit http://http//www.kr-hcy.com.

Brother smraza, all the things you narrated are more heresy then actual. When you will keep in touch with the Islamic scholars then you will come to know that most of such kind of things like keeping ones hand in prayers is forbidden or not, or some mulla calling another mulla calling kafir are misconceptions. I agree there are some incidents of it but they are very FEW and MOST of the scholars do not brand each other kafir. I assure you, you just need to get the company of some scholarly people and then you will know the truth. Most of the people who say MULLAHS are this, MULLAHS are that are just heresy.

- smraza - 11-05-2004

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Brother smraza, all the things you narrated are more heresy then actual. When you will keep in touch with the Islamic scholars then you will come to know that most of such kind of things like keeping ones hand in prayers is forbidden or not, or some mulla calling another mulla calling kafir are misconceptions. I agree there are some incidents of it but they are very FEW and MOST of the scholars do not brand each other kafir. I assure you, you just need to get the company of some scholarly people and then you will know the truth. Most of the people who say MULLAHS are this, MULLAHS are that are just heresy.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Dear Aliweb,
The site which you have mentioned I told about it to my friend, and I also told him about your views,
he said
"The people who say we are kafir, ok we agree that we ll not go to heaven, we are ready to go to hell with our beliefs.
He asked me to told you that we are not greedy of heaven but lovers of Ahl'e bait, and Sahaba Karam are respectable to us, but they have no comparison with Ahl'e bait.
We are the follower of Ahl'e bait, and will keep following them.
The site which you have mentioned contains fatwas and beliefs of your moulvis and Muftis, it is simply like that a Jew gives fatwa that all muslims will go to hell, but who cares about Jews"

Doesnt it seem interesting and funny ????? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

SMR

- Azeem Shah Khan - 11-05-2004

hi

dont know why we are prolonging this debate over this forum.

what if we start believing in ONE ummah and do not consider any sect as it causes hatred among the Ummah.

a simple question to ask, what was Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) sect?

He called himself a MUSLIM, cant we do the same........

i will be obliged if we could end our discussion here and if need be discuss this issue using personal emails.

regards

azeem

"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now."

- smraza - 11-05-2004

Agreed Azeem <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

SMR

- aliweb - 11-05-2004

smraza

You think Iamam Abu Hainf(ra), Imam Malik(ra), Imama of Masjid-e-Nabvi, Hazrat Ali (ra) e.t.s. were naouzubillah jews!? Wow great thinking!
By the way the originator of shia religion was a jew named Abdullah ibn Sabah.
As for Ahley Bait, I know your version of Ahley Bait very well.

Azeem Shah Khan, shia sunni cannot be one ummah because they are two separate religions. They have entirely different beliefs. It is like asking christian and jews and muslims to become one ummah.

For you information shias

1. Do not believe in present Quran.
2. Do not believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad(Peace and blessings be upon him). Although they won't say it directly just like qadiyanis when you will ask them they will say that we do believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad(Peace and blessings be upon him) but there beliefs will negate this. Same is the case with shias. They believe in 12 prophets after Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him).

- majsonline - 11-05-2004

Igreed with you Ali.
By the way, your study about sects is really commendable.

- Azeem Shah Khan - 11-05-2004

Dear Ali

I am not stopping you to discuss this issue, I am just urging you to discuss it personally and not over the forum.

I am not sure if our Shia members are going to enjoy your fatwas here. This is no place to discuss it.

If you believe you know the ULTIMATE ISLAM then stick to it but dont FORCE it on others.

As for Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik and all other Imams, they were great scholars but were NO BETTER than Prophet (PBUH). I know you respect all these Imams and I am sure all Shias respect their Imams the same way coz they believe in them........i dont see any point you using offensive language against them.

You must have got smraza's and my email addresses. Just put an invitation for members who want to discuss this issue and send your CRYSTAL CLEAR views to all of them using their personal email ids.

I am sure you would try to understand what I am trying to say.

Kind Regards

Azeem

"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now."

- smraza - 11-05-2004

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
You think Iamam Abu Hainf(ra), Imam Malik(ra), Imama of Masjid-e-Nabvi, Hazrat Ali (ra) e.t.s. were naouzubillah jews!? Wow great thinking!
By the way the originator of shia religion was a jew named Abdullah ibn Sabah.
As for Ahley Bait, I know your version of Ahley Bait very well.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Dear ali,
Read my post again and then tell me about my thinking, please tell me the version of Ahle bait, i m interested in knowing all the versions of Ahle bait, as I think there is only version of Ahle Bait,
I am not aware of different verions, you might have created some.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Azeem Shah Khan, shia sunni cannot be one ummah because they are two separate religions. They have entirely different beliefs. It is like asking christian and jews and muslims to become one ummah.

For you information shias

1. Do not believe in present Quran.
2. Do not believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad(Peace and blessings be upon him).
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
you told you dear that these are the belief of Shias, just go to any shia masjid and pick the Jild of quran from there and compare it with any Jild of quran from masjid of any other sect,
Shia do believe in the finality of Propeht Muhammad Sal'la ho elehe wassallam, who told you that they dont believe in that??? That must be a munafiq person who wants to spread fitna among the sects of islam.
While visiting the website which you have mentioned, i found another website www.answering-ansar.org I request you to visit the site, you will get all the answers of the evidences given by you against the shia community.

secondly you compared Shias with Qadyanis, Qadyani dont beleive in the finality of Muhammad (PBUH) as in their religion you will find various persons claiming to be the Prophet after Muhammad (Naaoozobillah)
but you will not find anyone in Shia community. If somebody does so, he is not only out of the circle of a particular sect, he is also out of the circle of Islam.

Btw. i just finished the discussion but i could not stop myself after viewing your thinkings about shias.
I just called my that friend to discuss your views with him, but unfortunately could not talk to him, as he is busy in Jaloos of Shahadat of our last Caliph Hazrat Ali (R.A)

SMR

- Azeem Shah Khan - 11-05-2004

since no body is listening.......I AM OUT OF IT!

azeem

"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now."

- smraza - 11-05-2004

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
since no body is listening.......I AM OUT OF IT!

azeem

"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

OK OK OK I AM OUT OF IT <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

SMR

- aliweb - 11-05-2004

JazakAllah brother mojsonline.

Azeem,I am not here to convert someone. Neither I am here to talk in private. I am here to beware my sunni brothers of shia. If I will do it in private with you or smraza or someone else then what is the purpose? As I said I am here to tell my sunni brothers the real face of shia.

Regarding Hazrat Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) he himself warned us about shias. Here is the link.
http://http//www.kr-hcy.com/Historicald/Fatawa/01.JPG

smraza, I have a gift for you regarding Quran and the finality of Prophet Muhammad(Peace and blessings be upon him).

Shias belief regarding Quran

Proof 1
The Supreme Islamic Council of Shi'tes in Lebanon issued the following Fatwa
Ref http://http//www.shiitecouncil.gov.lb/aqaedia/tahrif%20koran.htm

Question
Is the current (version of) Qur'an, which is in our hands, distorted?

Answer
The question is whether the (version of) Qur'an presently in our hands is the same (version) which was revealed to the Messenger [saw] without any additions or deletions.
There is no way to quote a textual evidence out of the narrations by the Messenger or the Imams or the Companions. However; it is right to say that they could have said that whatever they had in their era was the exact Qur'an which was revealed. It suffices in this respect that there are narrations exceed hundreds stem and encourage the recitation of this Qur'an, to hold on to it, act upon it, and refer each Hadith back to it. See Nahjul-Balaghah and al-Kafi (for this matter). The amount of narrations therein is more than one can count. But, to find in their speeches what may indicate that the Qur'an annot be altered or changed by anyone, then no. This has not been said neither by Allah, His Messenger, nor the Imams , His Messenger, nor the Imams [as] and (actually) no one can claim that.

Comment
What Quran do these guys read?
Allah has said in Quran that Verily We It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption). [159]
Maybe they got hold of the "original" Quran that doesn't have this ayat! hmm......

Proof 2
Before I write proof no. 2 I would like to tell everyone about Asul Al-kafi from which I will quote most of the reference as it the most IMPORTANT shia book.


Al-Kafi is the MOST reliable Shia Book, as the reliable Shia Scholars said and declared . Its author is Thiqat al-Islam Muhamad Ibn Yaqoob AlKulayni (A VERY reliable Shia Scholar, died in 328 H). Some Shi'ites scholars believe usool Al-Kafi was presented to the legendary Imam Qaem who liked it and said "It suffices our Shi'ites" (al-Tharee'ah ela Tasaneef al-Shi'a Agha Buzurg al-Tahraani; vol.17, p.245)

Al-Kafi is a collection of Hadiths attributed to the Prophet Muhamad(Peace and blessing be upon him) and The Infallible Imams -according to Shia- and like AhlSunnah, who give much importance to their Hadith book (Saheeh AlBukhari), Shia give the same or maybe even more importance to their Book (Al-Kafi). According to shias Al-Kafi is a blessed book.


continued in next post.....

- aliweb - 11-05-2004

continued from previous post...


EXAMPLES of the CONTENTS of AL-KAFI

[1] The Imams have knowledge of All that was given to the angels and the prophets. ( Al-Kafi vol.1 p.255 )

[2] The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. ( Al-Kafi vol.1 p.258 )

[3] The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. ( Al-Kafi vol.1 p.260 )

[4] "Bad'ah" ALLAH tells a lie. (Al Kafi, Vol. No.1, Page No. 148. A Shia doctrine.)

[5] We are the eyes of the God in his creature and the final authority in all human beings. (Al Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 145)


Now lets see what shia books say about the present Quran

1. There are seventeen thousand Ayah in real Quran. (Al Shafi, Vol. No. 2, Page No. 616)

2. The comparison between the Holy Quran and Shia's Quran. (which was compiled by Hazrat Ali R.A. and will be brought by Imam-e-Ghaib near Qayamat. (Asool Kaafi, Vol. No. 2, Page No. 123)

3. No one possess complete knowledge of Holy Quran except Imams. (Asool Kaafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 228)


4. Quran is altered corrupted and in perverted form (Shia belief).(Fatuhat-e-Shia, Page No. 129)

5. Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulaini on the authority of Jabir that he heard Abu Ja'far saying "Whoever claims from amongst the people that he has collected the entire Qur'an as Allah has revealed it is a liar. Only 'Ali and the Imams after him had collected it and memorized it as Allah had revealed it." (Usul al-Kafi, Chapter that the Qur'an was not entirely collected except by the Imams, and they only have all knowledge).