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+--- Thread: State within state (/showthread.php?tid=4839)
State within state - israrhere - 10-28-2007
Salam to all,hope ke sab khairiat se honge.
I am here in a little confusion and and request u all especially Mr Kamran Aca sahib to let me out of this.
I am basically from swat aur aj kal swat mai jo horaha hai shaid sab ko pata hai.waha per jo muqami taliban hai wo apna qanoon banane ki koshish kar rahe hain.NWFP mai sab se ziada education distt swat mai hai.swat ke 85 to 90 percent log in taliban aur imam derai ke karawayon ke khilaf hain.un ke baz kamo se(in my opinion)maaashere ko fadia bi hai jaise video centres(puramn tariqe se) band karwana(pehle unho ne in ke khilaf puramn muhem chalai lekin jes ne ye karoobar band nahi kia un par hamle shuro kardeye).But in my opinion un ke ziada tar kam gher islami hain jaise hair dressers ko damkhi amez khatoot bejna,schools ke talibat ko zabardasti burqe pehnana(12,13 saal ke bachyo ko be)phir is ke bad girls schools band karwane ke damkia dena etc.
Even if some of their tasks are good, we know that there is no state within state concept in islam aur islam qanoon ko hath mai lene ki ijazat nahi deta.In ke aik haleef ko jab mai ne ye kaha to us ne kaha ke aik hadith sharif ka mafhoom hai ke agar koi ghalat kaam kare to pehle use hath se rokna,agar ye na karsako to zuban se rokna aur agar ye bi na karsako to kam se kam dil mai bura manna aur ye eman ka kamzor tareen darja hai,aur kaha ke in video centres ko bomb se urana ghalat kam ko hath se rokna hai jo eman ka bulandtareen darja hai.
So i am confused about these two situations and u are requested to clarify.
THANKS
- Muhammad Amir - 10-29-2007
Dear Israr First Of All of which state you are talking about...
The State which has given protection to biggest defaulters of the nation and defactors of nation by passing "Quomi Mafahimati Ordinance" jis aurat aur us kay shouhar nay 90 arab rupay lutay us ko protection di ja rahi hay us kay liay security de ja rahi hay...
now first thing must be cleared here that every wrong act ko Taliban kay Khatay my dalna munasib nahi hay...
I am quoting here 2 examples...
some days back i saw a headline in news paper kay "Taliban nay School ki teacher ko Qatal kar dia"... bad may us ki tardeed Hukomat aur Taliban dono nay kardi kay hum nay asa nahi kia hay Taliban nay kaha kay hum nay tamam schools ki teachers aur students to kaha hay kay woh burqa pehan kay bahar niklain layhkin teacher kay qatal say hamara koi taaluq nahi...
second example some days back i saw a headline in news paper kay "30 security Ehalkarron ki Soukhta(Jali hoi) Lashen mili hann"... bad may maqami logon(NON TALIBANS) nay bataya ky lashon ko jalana Humari Qibaili aur Mujhabi Rewayat Kay Khilaf hay...
i want to signify kay "Har buray kam ko Taliban Kay Khtay my Dalna Hukomat aur Amrekion Ki Policy hay aur woh efficiently id ko pora kar rahay hann"...do know who were those people jinhon nay lashoon ko jalaya..they were Planted agents of "Mosad and Raw" ab yeh kay RAW aur Mosad ka wahan kaysay kam chalta hay ius ki seedhinsi example hay kay Northern Alliance(Shumali Etihad) walay hamesha say India aur Rusia kay Ghulam Rahay hann aur ajj kal afghanistan may in Khabees Comuniston ki hukomat hay to afghanistan may Mosad aur Raw kay agents fully pakistan kay halat kharab karnay ki koshish kar rahay hannn kabhi woh school ko bomb say ura detay hay kabhi security forces ko halak kar detay hann...
now what realy Taliban do with security forces "Woh un ko kidnap kar kar kay unka apnay say acha ikram kartay hann un ko acha khana khilatay hann aur jab mutalbat manzoor ho jatay hann to chor detay han app kidnap ehalkaroon ky interviews BBC par dekh saktay hann"
Meray bhai yeh koi Tesri Quwat hay jo Taliban ko Badnam kar rahi hay....
Taliban kay asal Halat un logon say pocho jo wahan jehad kar kay ai hann jinho nay Allah ki madad ko apni Ankhoon say dekha hay yeh sareay kam agencies kay hay woh jab jis ko chahti hann badnam karti hann aur jis ko chahti hay ushay mashoor kar deti hann...
Ap mujh ko sirf itna batao kay yeh intaha pasand 11 september say peshlay kahan that 11 september say pehlay waziristan bhi yahin tha swat bhi yahin tha aur Taliban aur Alqida bhi yahan that to phir yeh 1 dion may hi kahan say intaha pasand pyda ho gai...
Bhai thori aqal say socho jab Zulam barhata hay to TASHADUD Janam layta hay hay to zulm barha to tashadud nay bhi janam lia warna to kuch nahi tha...
App batao kay Moulana Fazal-Ullah aur Moulana Sufi Muhammad Sahib kia abhi pyda hoay hann ya yeh Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Muhammadi Abhi bani hay meray bhai yeh tanzeem 1992 say kam kar rahi hay aur ajj say pehlay kyun unhon nay HAJAM ki dukanon ko bomb say nahi uraya...
Meray dost Sochnay aur dono pehloon ko dekhnay ki zarorat hay aur media to hay he yahodioon ka lehaza media ki batain wohi hann joi khilaf-e-Islam hann...
App yeh mat samjho kay may karachi may beth kar tabsaray kar rahan hon may nay apni ankho say logon ko Tahajud may Islam kay nifaz kay liay rotay dekha hay...
Regards,
Muhammad Amir
- kamranACA - 10-29-2007
Dear Israr,
I can percieve that discussion on the subject matter can lead a big fuss and debate. Still, as u referred it to me more specifically, I will definitely share my ideas with you. I may wish to dont discuss the things which can get no results.
First of all I must say that biggest miracle (Moajza) of Islam is that it is spreading and winning acceptance at large without having regard to a big reality that as a nation muslims are the worst nation in the world. Historically and currently. I have so many times discussed it and have not a bit of doubt over it. This is only due to the ultimate truth of Islam and not due to any character of muslims at all. Others may not accept it which is a big hypocrisy and a matter of "Pidar-e-Mann Sultan Bood", still so many of our brothers have discussed the acts of muslims in islamic history on various threads which could be read by any one at this forum.
Secondly, we are mainly an illiterate nation. This is a matter to be judged as a whole and not on instances basis. Surely, it is against the basic education of Islam which asks every one to obtain knowledge. Knowledge has no where been restricted only to religious knowledge, madrissa knowledge or worldly knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge in its entirety. Otherwise a hint to go to China would Naoozbillah had carried no meanings for muslims.
Thirdly, our condition is of the pigeon who closes down his eyes on seeing a cat coming to him. We nominate various things to find a reason of refuge for our failure or wherever we dont find a reasonable reply to any query. We start it from blaming our fates, then YAHOODI LOBBY, then YAHOODI LOBBY affected MEDIA and then comes many more as per the thinking capacity of each mind on individual or collective basis.
I know jews are our worst enemies and they dont at all develop acceptance for muslims and cant at all see our prosperity. Still, we have been guided to keep an eye on them and have been asked not to rely on them in any matter. It has also been told to us that all Kuffar is same nation. We have been further guided that christians, in relationship for muslims, are better than jews. These all things are known to almost all muslims and need not to be re-called again and again. These are basically our foundation.
Still however, itâs a wonder if we always use these words without any justification for muslims, which may not be upto the mark, in our opinion, as we may also not be upto the mark in any othersâ opinion. Calling GEO or PTV or ARY or AAJ or INUDS VISION or any such other channel run by muslims as a jewish media is not a gud thing at our end. What will happen, if we start saying jewish lobby persons to every one among us. Even to the persons sitting in Madrissas and so-called mujahids and taalibaans and every one else. You know lack of wisdom can lead to uttering of any words. This would be a sin and is not appreciable. This is just like spreading iliteracy and lack of information if we ask others not to give an ear to the media. Media run by muslims (either they are of our viw or not) must not be called as jewish media or jewish influenced media. If we can understand, the media is the biggest blessing of this era. In some peoples' view everything which is not as per their idealogy is jewish in its nature. I wonder why they play the role of a pigeon described above.
Even we should listen what the actual jewish lobby is saying. There is no bar on it.
Swat !!! what a beautiful valley. Heaven on the earth. God's blessing for Pakistan. Matchable to the utmost beauty of switzerland in its landscape. Loving traditions. I cant forget my tours and visits of this valley starting from Islamabad, Noshehra, Mardan, Dargai, Malakand, Butkhela, KhawrzaKhela, Maingora, Sedu shareef, malam jabbah, madyan, behrain, kalam, Ushoo, Mahoodand and what not and what not. It's our ill fate that we are destructing this beauty and throwing it to the depth of killings, chopping down heads of innocents, firing out humans, explosions, wars, fights and imposing one sided islamic concept not acceptable to majority.
I cant totally disagree to what Amir has said about involvement of other enemy agencies in such activities. But we cannot at all rule out the activities of so called Ulemas, Mullahs and Taalibaans in this area. If other agencies are involved, the basic reason for their involvement has been created by these local taalibaans. (I am just using the word Taalibaan for identifying people like Mr. Fazalullah and it may not mean actual Taalibaans). I once explained this stopping of evil by hand or force as being on first grade of faith. It is very much controvercial and critical though it is not a Zaeef Hadees, in so far as, we interpret it for our own use, for making a logic to support our in-peaceful activities and for imposing our own ideas and school of thought on all others. Islam was not aimed at to create big fights among its own followers. Islam never educated us as such.
Evil has various definitions from various minds. One thing that may strictly be called as evil from one mind may not be called as such by other and may be termed as only a weakness or even not as such. Further, when we have a setup, a police and law enforcement system (how much it is effective is another question and its inefficiency again ourselves are responsible), a justice system, normal and shariah courts and so much else, then stopping of evil by our own hands remain totally unjustifiable. In existence of Qazi system in initial Islamic set ups, the murderer of one human was never treated as a nice act, irrespective of whatever the reason could be behind it. It is not the responsibility of individuals or specific school of thoughts to enforce their own mind's creation on others and do illegal and unjustifiable things by calling it as revoking the evil by hands. Just consider if you as a pakistani develop some own logic that all these Mr. Fazalullah type people are on wrong path (as I also think them to be) and on such logic u unjustifiablly (if u have power) start firing their properties, and killing them just calling it to stop an eveil, would it be a reciprocally justifiable thing. If we follow those people's mind then it should be justifiable. But in my view it is ruthless, inhuman and brutal. Law is there for sorting out our issues. If it is not working, then we should effort to make it workable. Destroying every thing as an avenge or rsponse is not a solution.
Why these people were not involved in such activities at Pakistan before these incidents. They had always been involved in such activities. How can one say they were not. Yes, they were not doing it with this intesnity in Pakistan becoz Afghanistan was open for them to fullfill their wishes, and they were doing this all stuff at Afghanistan thinking it to be a land of their school of thought only and dream word as well. They have a tendency of doing so. Islam (their school of thought) has only given them a cover. They are fighting since decades and even since centuries. They will not stop it even if you implement every thing which they feel appropriate. Their concentration started in Pakistan soon after they found it difficult at Afghanistan. I wish, God give them power, at least once, so that people could see the effects and eyes could be opened. Eyes should have been opened so far, but sometimes it is hard. If we take an over all view of this whole drama, should we not get a picture of what has come out of it grossly.
I believe that 9/11 was not done by these people. I believe it was jewsih act. I believe that they used it as a reason against muslims. But I very much know (as per my own perception) that who gave them a reason to do this all nasty stuff. Who created this room for them. There is no doubt that jewish lobby or other Kuffar is our enemy. This is absolute reality. But there are so many certain doubts over our own sincerity with muslims and islam and well beings of muslims. To whom we are killing in blasts? To whom we are harming if we fire out hairdressers shops, to who we will be harming if we demolish CD shops (we must make an effort and ask not to promote dirt but in my view CDs at all are not invalid, there cud be so many purposeful CDs as well, we shud stress objectivity and must not try to demolish everything), to whom we are destructing i we kill the scurity forces men? to whom we are harming when so many innocents give their lives in explosions? to whom we will be harming if we stop total tourism activity in these areas (who will go there? and how they will earn livelihoods which is totally dependent on tourism), who will be harmed if earning of the people of this valley will diminish? Every thing will harm muslims and not any one else.
In my absolute view, whatever has been so far done by these people has not at all given any benefit to the cause of Islam.
Things should have definetly been handled and treated differently. Since I am not a politician, or in government and since this forum is not a place to present theories, I cannot list down the methodologies for correction. The concerned people are expected to do it correctly and they have started working on it. I hope we will not cry on it like what we did on Lal Masjid issue.
My love to your land and every one living over there !!!
Best regards and best of luck for Swat.
Kamran.
- israrhere - 10-30-2007
Dear Amir bhi thanks for your reply,
First of all I want to clarify that I am not talking about the talibans which you are talking about and I have only a superficial knowledge about afghan talibans and their history.
Secondly swat is not a tribal area and is not near to afghanistan or waziristan,so the situation of afghaistan has not much effect on swat as it has on waziristan..
Dear Amir you would not beleive but I know some of the followers of Maulana Fazlullah personally,even some people from my own area joined his force(shaheen amn force).Beleive me they are extremely illiterate and are not actually talibelems.Though their love for islam is not ignorable, but in my veiw they followed what they learned from Maulana Fazlullah and his mates. One person who is from my neighbor village has joined Maulana Fazlullah's force.His old mother lives alone and is extremely poor but he visits her only one or two times in a week and says that he devoted himself to so called Islam. I am not saying this from media,I myself seen some of them who doesnât seem residents of swat,now I donât know who are they may be they are from waziristan or from afghan ,may be talibans or agents of Shumali ettihad.
Maulana Fazlullah ka aik sathi hai jo aik dusre gao mai FM radio channel chala raha hai , masjid se FM par apne mukhalif ulama ko galian daitan ta.Kabi jumat-e-islami walon ko aur kabi dusre firqo ko.swat mai sunnis ke ilawa koi aur firqa hain bi nahi is ke bawajood wo shias aur barelio ko galian daita ta.Amir Bhi is ke group mai is type ke mulveis hain ab app khud he soche.
My friend called me yesterday and said that he personally saw those three FC ehelkars(jo muje media se maloom hua)jen ke sar qalam kardeye gaye the aur un ko road par panka gia tha.
Aur ye pehli dafa nahi hua ye kafi arse se FC ko nishana bana rahe hain.wo ghareeb FC ke jawan jo gar chalane ke leye theen char hazar rupai pe naukri karte hain I donât know ke wo islam kaise nafiz kar sakte hain ke ye en ko mar rahe hain,agar in ko islam he nafiz karna hain to pir in ko seedha presedent house jana chaheye(I will appreciate them).I believe ke ye mulk Islam ke naam par bana ta isleye sirf swat mai nahi pure mulk mai Shareiat-e-Muhammadi ka nizam hona chaheye ,lekin is tarah hathyar leke apni force banane se islam to nahi nafiz ho ga.In my opinion it needs a great revolution which is only possible from right use of vote lekin is tehrik wale is ke khilaf hain,may be there are some other ways to revolution but not so simple.Coming to the main point agar pir bi ham tasleem karlen ke in karawayon main agencies mulawis hain to then why Maulana Fazlullah was supporting such activities(he is supporter of bomb blasts and against girls' education,etc)in his speeches on FM radio channel.I did not got it from media but I myself listened some of his speeches.(he was operating an FM radio channel so he has supporters in some areas of lower swat jen ke mali imdad se ye tehreek chal rahee hai jes ke baz hesse se ye aslaha khareedte hain aur baqi ka kuch pata nahi). So even if we say that agencies are involved in all such activities then it is clear that Maulana Fazlullah and some of his freinds(not his supporters and taliban )are also their agents.If they are not(allah knows better)then agencies used them and they at least involuntarily helped them to destroy the peace and beauty of Swat.
Now comming to Tanzeem-e-Nifaze Shariat-e-Muhammadi I know ke ye 1992 mai bani hai.Shaid app ko maloom nahi ho ke Maulana Sufi Muhammad Distt Dir se talluq rakta ta aur jamat-e-islami ke zerenegrani aik masjid ka muhtamem tha lekin un ke sath aik mamooli dunyawi masle par jagra ho gia aur jamat se nikal gia.Jamat se nekalne ke bad ye en ka mukhalif ban gia .Aur dir ke bajaye swat(jo ke nisbatan puramn,khushal aur advanced distt hai) mai nifaze islam ki tehrik shuru ke aur apni foj banaye jes ki FC ke sath baqaeda jurpay bi hui thi and as I already told 90% people were against him. And all this was before 9/11.Now he is against Pakistani law and elections.One more thing is that this Maulana Fazlullah is his nephew jes ne swat mai us ki musalah tehreek ko dubara shuru kia hain aur ab khud baag gia hai aur nuqsan aam admi ko puhnch raha hain, even if they are not involved directly in such activities still they provided the environment by operating such radio channels and supporting such activities.
Amir bhi please donât get angry if I have written something wrong but I wrote what I know about them.
Regards,
Israr
- kamranACA - 10-30-2007
Thank you very much for your reply and offer to contact u on swat's visit.
In fact I did not say that ur query will raise this thread to the fire, but it could be my answer which could do it. Still, I controlled so much and have given very restricted answer as I already said in my post.
Anyways.
Thanks again for ur offer, i will keep it in mind. But I think the people have make it a cause for visitors like me to plan next tours to switzerland instead of swat.
After all every one needs peace of mind.
Love for ur land.
Regards,
Kamran.
- Schuaeb - 10-31-2007
I don't have any intentions to start an endless debate on this thread. However, things have got little clear and may approach to some conclusion as they now are not only based on tabsaras of people from Karachi and Lahore.
What is happening in Swat had left with us with a very little doubt about Taliban. If people still think that their acts are justified then nobody could help them. May Allah provide us all guidance and right path.
Where were these forces before 9/11, a question raised by Amir, who tried to put the Raw and Mosad responsible for all that is happening in Swat. Nothing can be ruled out in today's scenario. However, if it is the case then this fazlullah is also their agent. The Afghan Talibaan were also accused of doing the same, I mean Talibaan in Swat is trying to follow the footstep laid by them.
Someone comes to help you, you kidnap him and even kill him. You don't even pardon women. Now what will you call it valour or extremely selfish act. And what if you are doing all this in the name of Islam. I am referring to the kidnapping of Koreans by Talibaan (majority were women and some were killed). I think we know that Koreans were never the one who imposed war on Afghanistan.