Emergency Imposed by a Dictator

Emergency Imposed by a Dictator - Printable Version

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- Astute Accountant - 11-15-2007

@ Israr
Well, I hadnât denied the democratic right of the Kashmiris. I just meant that itâs not just the humanitarian or religious aspects rather there are some other interests also that make a nation interfere in some other countryâs affairs and so do Pakistan has. And by sharing the story of an Indian army man I wasnât to conclude that Pakistan should immediately withdraw its forces from Kashmir and leave the region at the mercy of the Indian forces. What I meant actually; was to share the number of Pakistani-trained mujahedeen being killed or arrested by the enemy. I mean its ok; if someone submits himself voluntarily to this cause. But there is no need to kidnap someone to train. OK, I agree this may be noble cause to help your Muslim brother across the border but at the same time I donât find it fair to kidnap people for this cause. Can you imagine, how difficult and painful the situation would it be for old parents, the siblings and other family members of someone to search for the missing person? This is what I donât agree with!!!
And BTW Iâm not going to contest for the seat of Minister, CM, PM or President so that I may get any sort of benefit by making such âirresponsible statementsâ. Had we been interested in such seats, we wonât have let this seat gone, in the first place. These ministries are nothing new for us. The Grandfather of my grandfather was a Minister but we just left this field because we canât play a double game for our personal interests. It may not always be feasible to disclose the sources of information but let me make one thing very much clear that I donât have any personal ill-will for MMA. If Iâve any differences with them, they are just over some ideologies and that should not be taken to mean that Iâm an âenlightened moderateâ supporting all the policies of the govt.

***If someone wants to believe in my words, he/she can and if someone doesnât want, I wonât force him/her. And similarly I wonât like to be forced to disclose âeach and every source of informationâ because no rule of law bounds me to do soâ¦!!!

- israrhere - 11-16-2007

quote
"Here I dont know what the comments Israr has about Jamhooriyet."

Dear Kamran bhi when I used democratic rights it means that I am in favour of democracy everywhere because I don't find it unislamic.Even I think that if there is MASHWARA system in Islam then how can democracy be unislamic.
Further you said that;
"Jehadies dont accept democracy, then why they want democratic rights of Kashmiries?"
Dear sir I don't know that Jehadies are against democracy but if you mixup all the fighters who according to them are doing jehad,for example if you mixup those who are involved in bomb blasts or those who are fighting in swat(who in my view are not jehadies) with hesbulmujahedeen or others (who are doing jehad in real sense) then you may be right.
Kuch dino pehle commander salahuddin(head of hisbulmujahideen) ne jang bandi ka ilan kia tha due to improvement in dialague,it means that they are not against dialogue and democracy.
One more thing is that if ISI is doing its activities in kashmir or helping mujahideen for only political or regional purpose its Ok but it doesn't mean that all those who are fighting with the crual indian army have the same purpose aur ye Allah behtar janta hai ke kis ka kia maqsad hai.
Aur Kamran bhi gujrat ya dusre jagho mai jaha musalmano par zulm horaha hai wo maamla kashmir se bilkul mukhtalif hai kyon ke tqseeme hind ke mutabiq kashmir ko pakistan ke hisse mai ana chahye tha aur kashmerion ko decide karne ka moqa milna chahye tha jo nahi mila isleye jehad ka mazboot jawaz banta hai.
And Kamran bhi You said that you were an active member of IJT it is not much surprising but why did you become against them kyon ke I think jo aik bar en mai in hota hai bahir itni asani se nahi hota...am I correct?

Dear Astute I didn't try to force you to disclose proofs instead I requested to share your story with proofs and make us aware of such KIDNAPPERS(which I don't beleive to be so without a genuine proof and Islam also does'nt allow us to to do so without proof) ta ke ainda hum kabhi en logo ko support na kare.But yes you are right ,no one can force you becoz there is no such law.But dear still If you hurt please accept my sorry.

Best regards,
Israr

- kamranACA - 11-16-2007

Dear Israr,

God created me with some inclination to remain independent and to take and make my own decisions. No body can abstain me as I am citizen of an independent country (though it is shattered independence). By sub-nation, this is in our nature not to accept 'undue dominance'. I opened my eyes in an environment where guns and riffles were a casual part of life although these were 'mainly' licensed and were never used for offensive purposes. Not until now in my life time. While I was in age group of Ninth or Matric, I was used to participate hunting of swines and of birds.

So this IJT was neither able to include me in them nor abstain me going out of it. If somebody will say it for me, it would be a joke. college life is very different and students do what appeals their minds without considering fairness and corectness of underlying causes of various activities. During FSc I was a member of MSF (Muslim Student Federation) and in graduation I joined IJT. This was not a planned act. It happened spontaneously.

I agree we should take care of law and order and we should not do anything critical to our country and our religion. This is what our social responsibilities require from us. I never did grossly illegal things.

Rest of your post does not require lengthy replies from me becoz I know it is un-ending discussion.

Imran Khan has been handed over to government agencies by IJT at Punjab University while he was about to participate some agitation against this government and not by any one else. If some one knows Punjab University he should be aware that at Punjab University Chirrya bhi IJT sey Poochay Binaa Parr Nai Maar Sakti. I know it myself. This could never be a conspiracy against JI or IJT by some one else.

So dear Israr, does not it makes a sense for you or for all of us to conclude that what Astute has been pointing out is materially correct. You know despite everything MMA is still united. Why it is so. Every one is one and the same thing.

You can make a linkage of this act of IJT for the cause of government with that what Astute was saying about Qazi's petition against President that was allegedly governments own action for DOOR RASS results.

We should apply mind now. It may not be a college life at the moment.

Regards,

Kamran.

- Muhammad Amir - 11-16-2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Rather so manys of us appreciate such killings and bomb explosions and create reasons for justifying BAROOD and BLOOD even at Pakistan<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mr Kamran If your eyes are seeing properly, if your mind is properly working(I wonder how could it be), if your heart is unbiased then you should have to read my lines once again "what it requires only "BLOOD" and "BAROOD" and i can confirm their are very few who can afford to loss their lives..." these words are used for those who want "NIFAZ-E-SHARIAT" that means they have to loss their lives because they will be trated with BAROOD from KUFFARS and their agents as heppening in AFGHANISTAN, and in WAZIRISTAN and in SAWAT...so try to read with open eyes...May ALLAH protect from FITNA..

Dear Astute Accountant anyone having a little sense can't disagree with you and you are absolutly right and i also said this lot of times in other threads that these ALL JEHADI Organisations and movements were products of ISI and pakistan Army and the JEHAD of Afghanistan was financed fully by USA. once Russians invaded in Afghanistan the local tibes started JEHAD against russians latter americans and pakistani governments found their interests in this war and therfore they start supporting that JEHAD, American Government financed all of the Jehad to Pakistan and Pakistani Government granted it to Jehadists, pakistan used their Militry personnel to train JEHADI Militants to go to afhgan jehad, all of these are real facts and one can't deny them but dear Astute can you tell me what would be your likely reaction when you are fighting with your enemy and the enemy of your enemy start supporting you and he start financing you, he start giving you war weapons with advanced technology what would you do, would you reject his offer or accept it my dear similar was the case in afghan Jehad, thus Afghan Tribes accepted every aid from americans, and Pakistani government at that time start supporting Jehadies for solely their interset because the relations of India were very friendly with Russians...

One thing more i want to tell you that after 2001 lot of things have changed, Jehadies are decleared as Terrorists, lot of Arab Mujahedeens who left their land just for the sake of Jehad and to help their muslim brothers in Afghnnistan are declered as ASKARIAT PASAND and etc, Heroes of past are now titled as Terrorists, those who have been trained by Pakistani Army are now killed by same Army...

Some people are declearing Suicide attackers as "Wild animals" but where these so called "ROSHAN KHAYAL-AMRECI GHULAMS" were when Pakistani army was destroying the houses of Wazistan(Is whole waziristan consists of Talibans), LAL MASJID, BAJOR, MITTA, DAMA DOLA and etc, I am not in favour of suicide attacks but we have to see both sides, as suicide attacks are non islamic and not in favour of country similarly attacking MADARIS,MASAJID,HOUSES of innocents is non islamic and not in favour of country, this KHABEES PERVEZE MUZALLAL(may Allah give him full justice at akhirat) has nearly destroyed whole pakistan, where were those suicide attackers before 2004 were they borned after 2004, no suicide attack was reported in pakistan before 2004...

As far as Jehad-e-Kashmir is concerned some people raised their concerns over it and they are asking questions by providing huge list(may Allah save us from these propagandists) i willtalk for it later as i am busy in my exams...

And remember JIS KI QISMAT MAY ALLAH HI NAY HIDAYAT NAHI LIKHI US KO KOI BHI NAHI SAMJHA SAKTA...

TO ISRAR "IS HIZBUL MUJAHEDEENS real worriers of GOD?(we all know about the type of Jehad they do in Kashmir and how they destroyed the cause of Kashmir)" and i will be greatful if you tell me about the term REAL MUJAHEDDENS...

Regards,

Muhammad Amir

- sajid naveed khan - 11-16-2007

Dear Amir plz dnt carry on this discussion with Kamran it is nothing than time wasting activity,
bcz Kamran alwayz go opposite

- Imran - 11-17-2007

AGree with sajid naveed khan

- kamranACA - 11-17-2007

Dears,

Your words canot help to create sense for the things which were, are and will be insensible, inhuman and against the peace.

If what I concluded about Amir's words regarding BAROOD and BLOOD etc lead to some misunderstanding about what he wants to say, I would regrettfully state that these words in continuety of the relevant para of his post are still not understandable as carrying some different meaning than what I understood. He said

"they (MMA) also produced their DRAMA of "HISBA BILL" just to make people fool, otherwise "ISLAMISATION/TALIBANISATION" requires no "HISBA BILL" what it requires only "BLOOD" and "BAROOD" and i can confirm their are very few who can afford to loss their lives..."

It appears from this statement that he used the words that Islamization/Talibanization requires nothing except BLOOD AND BAROOD. Now I dont know how to deduce a meaning that this BLOOD and BAROOD is what Islamization/Talibanization is facing from opponents (and not requires for flourishing). I am concentrating on words and not what was in mind when Amir wrote it. There could be some problem in understanding of english.

Further, I know rigids cannot be brought to humanity and logic.

I dont oppose what we are doing at Kashmeer since ages, it could be our political requirement and a cause to stregthen our country's existence and a reason to make the indians busy at their home so as to avoid other issues like water storage and political unrest created by indians. I can understand these political and regional strategies and I already said that these are not totally undue.

However, in my view it is wrong that we give these things a name of Jehad as our (sinful) political leaders and matlab parast MMA like religious leaders have been doing since ages. The same were in power when this so-called name of Jehad was on peak and same are in power when it is being called as Terrorism. Only Musharraf cannot do all the things. Why the others so-called faithful are associating him like son of so-called "REHMATUALLAH" General Zia, son of FATEH JEHAD-e-AFGHANISTAN Hamayun Akhter, like Qazi, like MMA, like FAZAL-ur-REHMAN and all others like chaudries and sheikh Rasheed etc who were at some point of time in history calling it Jehad. Can only one MUSHARRAF do all the things if whole of this leadership go against him. If whole of army go against him. Can he do. What the guys are talking about here. USA can only have one option, i.e. to attack muslims if we dont agree to its requirements. Can USA attack whole of the world (muslims) if we get united. I wonder about logics created to satisfy own feelings by declaring some one AMRECAN GHULAM etc who tries to bell the cat. Your substantial political religious leaders are USA ghulams indirectly to whom ur minds dont accept.

Yes, I know for an individual the things done by him have to be dependent on his intention as faith depends upon intentions. Still, grossly wrong things done by good intentions do not lead to good results on national level whatever the intentions are.

As suggested by some "VERY CONSENTING" fellows of the forum it would be better if we dont go far in this discussion as it will never bring results.

Yes, Amir,

I agree to you in so far that

"JIS KI QISMAT MAY ALLAH HI NAY HIDAYAT NAHI LIKHI US KO KOI BHI NAHI SAMJHA SAKTA..."

Becoz you may sitting on left side of God when he wrote in my fate to remain BAY HIDAYAT. And Becoz you may be someone providing consultancy to God. (NAOOZBILLAH). As ur statement reflects.

Regards,

Kamran.

- Schuaeb - 11-18-2007

Why you guys go to such extreme directly commenting on other's personal affairs? Had I been the moderator I would have imposed a ban on any debate/fight with Kamran and Amir.

- israrhere - 11-18-2007

Dear Kamran the explanation which is given by the leadership of jumat-e-islami regarding the incident which is happened in panjab university should also be considered because I think if this was a planned act then the leadership of JI is very much fool to do this in such situations and make it clear that they are with govt(if they are but I donâthink so).And also the relationships of Imran with the leadership of Jumat-e-islami doesnât show that it was a planned act.
And dear sir I think it would be unfair if we conclude about someone in such hurry.Anyways Allah kare waqt ke sath sab kuch clear hojaye.

Dear Amir bhi one thing I would like to mention that I have no direct relationship with either Jumat-e-islami or hisbulmujahideen and I used âhisbulmujahideen and othersâ (who are fighting with Indian army in Kashmir) instead of only "hisbulmujahideen".So neither did I say that only they are the real warriors of God nor I know who are the real mujahideen.And may be you all know about, but I donât know how they destroyed the real cause of Kashmir.

Best regards,

Israr

- nakaiun - 11-18-2007

mma is always supporter of army they support army underground mma should be given a strict punishment regarding imran khan incidant

- Muhammad Amir - 11-18-2007

First Of All Imran Khan's Incident was planned Activity Of Secret Agencies Of Our Pakistan SO Nothing Wrong With Islami Jamiat Talaba(Atleast these guys are not like MQM) And Jamat-e-Islami despite of having differences with them i can't accept that Jamit has treated Imran in such manner...

For Mr KamranACA

I would appologise for my words quoted

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"JIS KI QISMAT MAY ALLAH HI NAY HIDAYAT NAHI LIKHI US KO KOI BHI NAHI SAMJHA SAKTA..."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

and

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Amreci Ghulam<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I only appologise for these words and for nothing else

I should not use them for anyone this is a biggest sin may Allah also Forgive me A'men but for this Mr Kamran have to forgive me...I hope he will....

About Jehad the last words are "JEHAD QYAMAT TAK JARI REHAGA" and Insha-Allah, Allah(S.W.T) Islamists Ko Dominant Rekhay Ga, Islam aur Jehad ko Badname Karnay ki Sari Sazishain Nakam Hoon Gi...

Regards,

Muhammad Amir

- Astute Accountant - 11-18-2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Schuaeb
 Why you guys go to such extreme directly commenting on other's personal affairs? Had I been the moderator I would have imposed a ban on any debate/fight with Kamran and Amir.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmmmm GOOD [)]

BTW Shoaib Bhai, where have you been?
I thought you might be busy at "chourrian teez karna (as per your own statement at the forum)" [)]

- Astute Accountant - 11-18-2007

I think the discussion is a 'drawn game' because everyone has stuck to his guns.

- Schuaeb - 11-19-2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by israrhere
 Dear Kamran the explanation which is given by the leadership of jumat-e-islami regarding the incident which is happened in panjab university should also be considered because I think if this was a planned act then the leadership of JI is very much fool to do this in such situations and make it clear that they are with govt(if they are but I donâthink so).And also the relationships of Imran with the leadership of Jumat-e-islami doesnât show that it was a planned act.
And dear sir I think it would be unfair if we conclude about someone in such hurry.Anyways Allah kare waqt ke sath sab kuch clear hojaye.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If we keep on making our own fact and deliberately close our eyes then it fine, otherwise, facts and incidents themselves have made things pretty clear. The role of MMA during last five years is in front of us, okay we may say apart from last year. At every crucial time a disguised support of MMA leaders was there for government. I think I need not to enlist the issues. MMA came form nowhere and various maulvies joined who at one time seemed that never could form an alliance, and then they succeeded to win a historically high percentage of seats in national as well as provincial assemblies. Previously, these people just managed to win a fraction of that. So, the forming of MMA itself and the way they performed in their first elections raised much suspicions bout them. Situation got clearer as the things progressed, MMA leadership was totally against government policies. However, the enigma of that disguised support explains the concept of Mula Military Alliance.

The political drama manufactured by JUI upon dissolution of NWFP and the way things were managed in government's favor leaves no doubt in my mind of loyalties of Mr. Fazalul Rehman for Musharraf. So, I don't know how did you conclude that JUI's supports are not with government. Deliberately closing one's eyes or what!

I thought we were educated and mature enough to realize the role of Jamiat and other students' federation, how immature students are used for political purposes and the way education has been devastated in government universities and colleges. I believe nothing has caused more harm to our education is government institutes than these political student federation. And if we enlist them Jamiat has to placed at first place. I have said at various places that anything that associates itself with Islam never means it is serving for the purpose of Islam. Using the name of Islam is the best way to exploit innocent masses but we should not be that ignorant to make such evil efforts a success. If someone disagrees with the role of Jamiat then I would like to ask him to please let me know what positive they have done so far.

Coming to the recent event, Jamiat betrayed Imran Khan and made a worse example. I should be thankful to you guys as you didn't blame Uncle Sam for this incident in Punjab University. Can you pleas explain how agencies were involved. I believe there might be only one way that this Jamiat is being run by agencies is universities, and if it is the case why to support them. It was Jamiat's member who misbehaved with Imran Khan, locked him up and handed over to police. Now please instead throwing everything on agencies please logically tell me how agencies did all this.
The response of other students which of course were not directly affiliated with Tehrik-e-Insaaf and the way the protested against Jamiat and Jamiat's leadership was embarrassed is something very positive for me. Some hope is there.

- Schuaeb - 11-19-2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Muhammad Amir
 
I would appologise for my words quoted

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"JIS KI QISMAT MAY ALLAH HI NAY HIDAYAT NAHI LIKHI US KO KOI BHI NAHI SAMJHA SAKTA..."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

and

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Amreci Ghulam<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I only appologise for these words and for nothing else

I should not use them for anyone this is a biggest sin may Allah also Forgive me A'men but for this Mr Kamran have to forgive me...I hope he will....

About Jehad the last words are "JEHAD QYAMAT TAK JARI REHAGA" and Insha-Allah, Allah(S.W.T) Islamists Ko Dominant Rekhay Ga, Islam aur Jehad ko Badname Karnay ki Sari Sazishain Nakam Hoon Gi...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There is nothing bad if we applogise for something we consider as a mistake on our part. In fact it something positive and should be considered as courageous effort.

However, coming to your case Amir, if you keep on doing the same thing i.e. passing absolutely bizarre remarks about others and keep on appologising then I don't know how to value your sincerity. You have done it at more than one place and with more than one members. Though Karmran never spares you but I reckon that you are the one who intiates. Later on you appologise and then repeats the same and then appologise and then repeat the same and then appologise and things go on like this. So, KAUL AUR FAIL KE IS TAZAD KO KIA NAAM DO GAY. It seems that you are following footsteps of your favourite JUI, but all such efforts are useless if you are totally exposed.

This may be a bit bitter but I reckon it as reality, however, I have no intentions to offend. Hopefully you will take things positively and consider it as a sincere suggestion.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Astute Accountant
 
quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Schuaeb

Why you guys go to such extreme directly commenting on other's personal affairs? Had I been the moderator I would have imposed a ban on any debate/fight with Kamran and Amir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmmmm GOOD

BTW Shoaib Bhai, where have you been?
I thought you might be busy at "chourrian teez karna (as per your own statement at the forum)"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is because that perhaps main tumahari trha vaila nahin hon aur aur bhi gham hain zamanay main iss forum aur chorrian taiz kerne k elava