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+--- Thread: icap has reduced the exemption of acca to c module (/showthread.php?tid=4926)
- Muhammad Amir - 02-04-2008
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I donât know why a totally un-worried person is so worried about absurd things. Why he so anxiously counts on exemptions, why he so precisely keeps record of percentages, papers and else concerning the exemptions from ICAP. Wonders!!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A totally un-worried person is so worried about these exemptions because he is not the only student of ACCA here in pakistan and there are so many students who have started their ACCA just their route to CA, after these changes in ICAP's policies their future become uncertain, when i was planning to start my career in accountancy my parents and other family members fully pressurized me to start CA but i was prudent enough to know the real things about this body and i don't want to waste the golden era of my life in ICAP's policies.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Another concept is too much rubbed here on this forum. ACCAs are business advisors/planners rather than simply the accountants. Mashallah. On the same time one friend has pointed out that ACCA becomes ACCA only when he has undergone the training and an affiliate is not ACCA as such. I feel amused while reading such stuff. On one hand it is not even agreed that affiliate who lacks the training is ACCA and on the other hand it is claimed that ACCA on its own is business advisor/planner. [means no role training plays]. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think you have to re-read the article that you have pointed.
Regards,
Muhammad Amir
- kamranACA - 02-04-2008
Ok dear,
I will re-read when will have such time and will again get to feel amusement.
Regards,
Kamran.
- Pracs - 02-05-2008
and the saga continues
- Schuaeb - 02-05-2008
The saga is really amusing as Kamran said
- Schuaeb - 02-05-2008
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Muhammad Amir</i>
[when i was planning to start my career in accountancy my parents and other family members fully pressurized me to start CA but i was prudent enough to know the real things about this body
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Nice to know bout ur prudence Amir
- Astute Accountant - 02-05-2008
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pracs</i>
<br />and the saga continues
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Schuaeb</i>
<br />The saga is really amusing as Kamran said
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yeah, the saga is amusing to a cinsiderable lot. Waise confess karne ki kia zaroorat thi; we all already knew..... P
- kamranACA - 02-06-2008
Dears,
I just smile on ur comments.
In my view, the one who does not speak on an issue, means to have accepted it.
Justice Tariq Rtd has recommended Pakistani nation to watch indian movie "HALLA BOLE". It's not my suggestion. I just inform you.
Regards,
Kamran.
- Astute Accountant - 02-06-2008
Yes yes Bhai keep on smiling, it increases one's face value. )
By the way, sometimes we keep quite, intentionally, to mean that we have concurred to some one's viewpoint because in my view, kabhi kabhi iss tarha 'haar' ker bhi insaan wo kuch jeet jata hai jo jeet ker nahi jeet sakta. Howzatt???
- kamranACA - 02-07-2008
Dear,
In controversies, no one could evaluate to whom this concurrence is aimed at. )
Therefore, I donât agree to you on this conclusion. However, if anything, indirectly is solving your problem, then I can't say anything.
)
Regards,
Kamran.
- accountingunlimited - 02-26-2008
Salam to all of you
I enjoyed the debate, however I came up with some intersting observations as well. As Mr. Kamran mentioned a long list of skills (specifically of sectors) which our ACA's learn in 'jabri mashaqat', I would like to know how many CA firms in Pakistan train their trainees to acquire most of these sector specific skills (offcourse not all of them). According to my knowledge there are more than 250 firms in Pakistan beside big 4 or top 10. So what about the quality of ACA coming out of a small firm as compare to ACA of big 4. Offcourse a huge difference they dont have same level of skill and competency. So pointing the ACCA regarding skill and competency is not appropriate.
The world is moving towards specialisation and ACA and ACCA are not exemption, many people are making in career in auditing, tax, consultancy etc. Even in big firms here in London the partners are specialised in different sectors.
On the other hand if we talk about financial sector in UK, there are dozen of institutes offering dozen of qualifications and they never compare each other. They simply focus on their strength. For e.g Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland and Institute of Chartered Accountants of England and Wales. The ICAS has 6hours case study paper as compare to 4hours of ICAEW because they are of the view that the importance of the subject requrie more comprehnesive knowledge and its production in exam. I have never seen students of these bodies arguing with each other.
Beside that there are many other reasons which requrie both time and patience for consturctive debate.
When I was in Pakistan I proposed that medium and small firm should form a consortium and exchange the skills and knowledge by having combined training for their trainees as they cannot afford to conduct at their own. It will provide a good experience to trainees of small and medium firms and will also increase their level. However you people know that politics is everywhere in Pakistan even in professionals.......
I got the opportunity to teach the students of ICAP an ACCA (some of them are qualifed now as ACA and ACCA)and I found that ACCA text is more conceptual. On the other hand ICAP even dont have official text and they provide a long list of books in which different authors are discussing same thing in their own style, confusing the student. I must say that studying for ACA is not difficult but has been made difficult by not providing adequate guidance.
Some of my friends who are qualified as ACA and ACCA and working outside Pakistan are of opinion that ACCA and ACCA studies has helped them a lot to stay in International scene, otherwise it would have been difficult (not impossible).
I would appreciate if students and professionals of both institutions work with each other in harmony as world is becoming global and everyone has something different to offer.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
- kamranACA - 02-27-2008
Dear Accounting Unlimited,
You have rightly said that there are numerous firms in practice at Pakistan and only few (may be 20 or 30 as I donât focus only on big 4) would have quality work.
Still, you have to analyze that what is the status of each firm which is not falling in the definition of a good firm. If you will analyze in detail, such firms have very few students registered with them and even some small practices have no student at all. Now in turn you will also be required to analyze that, as per given passing rate of ICAP, how many students of these small firms (which have few number of registered students) qualify each year and how many of them have so far qualified.
The latest ICAP members' directory shows that at the moment total qualified members of ICAP within Pakistan are 3,222 whilst outside Pakistan ICAP members are 888 thus giving a total of 4110.
I have no doubt in saying that very lower percentage of this number is expected to have qualified from those small firms which you are pointing out. Majority of them remains in Intermediate level or even below this level. Just come down to check what is really going on. Now, if some one is so hard working and challenge accepting that even working in such small firms he qualifies the ICAP exams and become a member then you must appreciate he would have something extra ordinary in his personality. He must has something to compete the others.
I have personally witnessed such examples. I donât just want to quote any one's name but I have seen few such ICAP members who were from small firms but when question of competence came I saw them having a big upper hand over the students of top ten firms. This can happen and this actually happens. Yes I totally agree that these are very rare cases. You will appreciate that in fact the qualifying cases in such firms are very rare. So rare has to produce rare. Is not it??
You know in Pakistan when ICAP council elections are held the qualified people of only very big firms win the elections. Just see the break of present council. Almost half (even more than it) are from AFF currently or at least historically. Remaining are from other big firms in majority or are the Govt nominees. Only one or two are out of them and even those are not from very small firms that you have pointed out. Why? Just becoz out of these 3,222 qualified members in Pakistan majority (I say clear majority) is from those big firms. Very few are those (I again say very few) who do not belong to such firms. Check the historical record of ICAP's council and you will find my statement true. Why this happens? Just becoz qualified members from small firms are very very fewer and elections represent where majority lies. Is there a need to prove it?
Now again the problem which appears from your e-mail is that you may not completely understand the current situation at Pakistan. I don't have to argue against ACCA's text, its number of students, it output on international level or other efforts it has made or benefits people have obtained from it. I have personally studied CIMA's books during my finals and found them very nice study material (although I read all other stuff which I could). The thing which I always want to explain is the mind-set of students of accountancy in Pakistan at large. One thing should be clear and understandable that to get something you always have to lose something.
People here try to get over night or AT LEAST easiest way outs to become a professional. I donât criticize any one who feels ACCA as his career and works hard in it. I only criticize those who feel that CA is much demanding, very difficult, having wrong policies, and will never be easier to qualify so ACCA should be opted. They practically don't qualify CA even after taking so many attempts and then they say "GRAPES ARE SOUR" and move on to ACCA which they (every one knows) do easily. I personally have no doubt that criteriaâs of ACCA are much easier than CA. It is never that challenging as much the CA is. I don't only speak for Pakistani CA in this case. However, I normally limit my discussion to Pakistani market as every one cannot leave the country.
We donât have to debate on what is playing what role and what study material is available for what studies. To hell with this. Of course to get more you have to put in more. Is it some out of the world issue which does not come in our mind's digestive system? And for a typical Pakistani whose parents are not running factories and who is not a big land lord, everything is his career, qualification and future professional life. Is it not? Now I am not talking about the ones who are religious people and whose preference is not the worldly things. I donât much argue about their thoughts. They may be very much right in feeling what they say.
So the people who have to invest everything in the career and qualification should not be diverted from the right track just becoz of propaganda of others in respect of CA. I tell you that I am qualified CA, I am also member of a few other professional institutes of Pakistan. I am also looking to do CA from ICAEW (as it is coming to Pakistan) and I will INSHALLAH do it certainly. I am also studying and planning for CFA (in personal capacity so far). It makes no difference for me whatever any body else do for his life. I am not hurt just becoz of listening something against CA. Mind it. It's not a matter of ego.
I just don't want the others to divert and deviate from the right track just becoz of few people who don't know the facts. The practical reality which they would shortly (in 4 or 5 years) be facing in their professional life. I did save a guy (who is member of this forum) who was almost deciding to quit CA and join ACCA due to failures in initial exams of CA. He kept on asking me so that I may advise him to do ACCA. I never advised and now Mashallah he has almost achieved his targets and he offers thanks to me who saved his future. In fact this credit goes to him who kept on working hard. I don't even wish to get thanks from others. I never expect. I wish to help others to the extent possible for me. Yes knowledge is not limited to me and I may have not comprehensive knowledge of every thing. This is a combined quest. Thatâs what this forum is meant for.
While living in Pakistan (I am not talking about UK) and wishing to do the best in this profession and even then choosing something else can ruin the futures and astray the expectations. Thatâs why I ask people to do the best and to concentrate on what would be best in a given environment. This is not a question of debate for merely the sake of debate. I do it sometimes but on this issue it is the matter of future of students who donât know much. Please note one thing please. More jobs for a given qualification is not a criteria for concluding it best. In Pakistan B.Com gets more opportunities than M.Com or ACMA. This does not make them more attractive than higher and better qualifications. You must appreciate that the best and precious is always in short quantum. So the persons who wish to be the best and precious and invest time for their future should not be deviated from their objectives.
Thatâs what I want. Still if some one feels any other qualification better, he/she should have the test of it. Who cares and who is affected. In fact the number of professionals (high quality) if remains lower, it will benefit the existing such professionals. They are not going to face losses. You know demand supply forces. Am I wrong?
I appreciate the owners of this forum who have put in such a great effort and gave such a big platform for professionals to get the benefits which they rarely utilize. I request qualified people like you (and like others like Goodman, Mr. Mahmood Ch and Pracs etc) to participate in forum activities so that its standard could be improved.
Hope you can understand my point of view.
Best regards,
KAMRAN.
- kamranACA - 02-27-2008
Dear Accounting Unlimited,
ICAP has issued necessary directive for NETWORKING of small scale firms/practices. It has also issued training regulations which will bring the good results.
Hopes should not be down.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- accountingunlimited - 03-01-2008
Dear Mr. Kamran ACA
Thank you very much for your time and efforts which you put in your mail. Its good to see that ICAP has started thinking for the students'der ayed durst ayed'. As far as statistics and council members, elections etc are concerned leave it for the time being, I know many council members (present and ex) and partners of large firms (again present and retired). The point which is under debate or discussion is ACA and ACCA qualification and standard of students/professionals.
I think we all are trying to establish same opinion in different ways i.e It does not matter a person is ACA or ACCA, it is his work, skill, competence and knowledge which plays key role in his recognition. Similiarly it does not matter how many qualifications you have because if there is a tax issue you are most likely to run to Shabbar Zaidi and if you are a student to Khalid Petiwala. For audit issues Ibrahim Sidat and if you are a student then Javid Hanif Zuberi or Naveed Bukhari (when I say you it does not mean Kamran ACA). These guys dont have a long list of qualifications but expertiese in relevent field.
As you mentioned that people have fantasy to get successful overnightly and for this they opt ACCA after failing or being unsuccessful in ACA qualification.I can assure you they will not be successful in ACA if they have plan to go for ACCA and get exemptions from foundation (or whatever stage) and then go for ACA.
According to my personal observation in Pakistan person learn more practically rather than text books because of different learning and working standards. As he has to work in the market, so the working standard is more relevant to him.
Why do you think ICAEW is coming to Pakistan?
What interest do they have in Pakistan?
Do you think ICAP can start a program in UK?
My dear, the answer is globalisation. As you mentioned that you are not thinking in international scenario but only Pakistani market, it astonishes me. You are a responsible member of a professional body with intention to become member of other professional bodies (both of them are international).
The last two papers which you are likely to take in ICAEW exams does not have full practical implication in Pakistan, on the other hand CFA which specialises in Investment Market will require you to appear in exams with questions on Derevative market, Options, Bonds etc which again do not exist in Pakistan. So whats the point?
I am not trying to crticise but I am trying to figure out the reason why people in Pakistan are crazy about qualifications, rather than emphasising on their skill in a respective field? Are you guys not confident enough about you qualification?
On one hand we acuse others to plan to take short route on the other hand we are doing it ourself to gain membership of another body.Whats the difference?
Think about that.
Take care
Best Regards
- kamranACA - 03-03-2008
Dear Accounting Unlimited,
There must be some personal reason of your opinions and conclusions you have drawn in your latest post.
Last time you started discussing from the small firms as a major issue. And now you say leave this topic for the time being. No wonders. Let it go.
As far as Mr. Zaidee or Mr. Sidat are concerned, it is no wonder why people go to them while they donât have so many qualifications. {first of all, extra qualifications have some other driving factors and not the ones you estimate}. Yes, you are right that Mr. Zaidee has very good expertise in taxation. He had been working on different government committees, remained ICAP president and is now SAFA president. Why? Has he done this all solely in the individual capacity? I know he is extra ordinary man. But did it work individually?
I will say certainly not. Besides his abilities, his position to work with the biggest ever firm of Pakistan having biggest ever international affiliation has worked for him along with his personal extra ordinary capabilities. Both things worked side by side. He remained among the toppers since his childhood. He got gold medal when he was doing B. Com in Hailey College, Lahore. He had been the best speaker. [In my view this is his biggest quality which has made him such a nice professional. The way he expresses the things is unique.]. His abilities could be enormous but when this was coupled with the position and opportunities he got, that made him the Zaidee of this time. This could be materially wrong but I feel that had he been a partner of some other small firm, he might have not gone to such a stage.
Apart from one's abilities, still, so much is publicized, politicized and overwhelmingly accepted. There could be so many other big names that might have more exposure and knowledge than any renowned person. Do you feel Musharraf (as he is leading the country) is the most qualified, efficient and suitable person in whole of Pakistan. But fact is, he is leading and governing it. Brain storming!!! I know some others who in my view if not more than Mr. Zaidee would also not be less than him. He is a good example but is not the only example. The issue is of preferences. What Mr. Zaidee is doing what is his preference and could be due to specific opportunities found by him which made him Mr. Zaidee. Others may have other preferences and opportunities and may have accordingly achieved their own objectives.
This is exactly what I was telling on this forum on some other thread. Every one has his own preferences and gets specific opportunities. If some one is Mr. Zaidee and if some one is not Mr. Zaidee mainly depends upon preferences and opportunities.
Now coming to the question of having extra qualifications. You pointed out Mr. Sidat. Do you know the son of Mr. Sidat is a chartered accountant as well as a qualified practicing actuary. These both things have quite different and far ending expertise. Mr. Sidat never hampered his son to have various qualifications on the basis of exposure of his life (as you point out he is best in audit to which I may not agree).
By the way, you first were talking about 4110 (almost) CAs from 160 million population of Pakistan, and now you are talking about only 2 out of those 4110. Where you want to take this discussion in fact. Let's see.
I think you have just picked up one of my posts and made all your conclusions. I so many times said that having extra qualifications never shows a lack of confidence, adopting short routes (obviously for a man who is already qualified this can never be wisely speaking a short route rather could be a quest), short sightedness, cowardice and anything else. I don't know which corner of mind deduces that a person who is already qualified and would probably be getting good returns could be declared as selecting short routes if he wants to do something extra even after securing the best already. Who told you so precisely that I may not be doing very good in my professional obligations or I donât have good exposure? I know I donât need to explain but itâs strange that you got all the desired info. Out upon the way of making this conclusion.
The objective to get ICAEW's CA is to have membership of another renowned institute that may work for instance if I wish to settle down at UK as u r probably doing. Yes, even for this purpose my preference is not ACCA as I know ICAEW is better than it. I am searching for better not for the easier. This is the difference. Even if not, having extra memberships (as one does not have to qualify total exams) does not mean that some one is not satisfied with his own qualification. However, leaving one's objective qualification just for the reason of failures and opting the other is some other thing. Can you understand it???
You are just revolving your feet from your own words where you said specialization is necessary. I agree specialization comes with practice; I am the biggest advocate of this idea. But I also feel that for specialization, it is never a bad idea to have extra qualifications. Rather, it gives diversified knowledge which if we are not going to adopt as a profession can also help us in improving our own profession in which we are working. No body that has done ACCA along with ACA was ever covered in my discussions. I always exclude them and treat them genius people in my humble views.
So if I use mind, I can figure out that there is a difference among
- the ones who are qualified and just wish to extend it due to globalization (being discussed by you) or extra knowledge or just (roughly speaking) for the sake of having extra degrees/qualifications on letterhead and visiting cards to enhance the depth of their professional relationships and activities; AND
- the ones who could not do CA and move on to ACCA or other such qualification which they feel easier in getting through.
Hope you can understand it if you wish to do so.
Now coming to the issue of globalization and restriction of my conclusions to Pakistan only. I know every one cannot move out. So first of all he/she has to save the future and then he/she can move to experiment other things. This has nothing to undermine the globalization concept. When I discuss the issues of Pakistani students, I talk in much micro perspective. A student, while he is a student has nothing concern with the professional issues you are discussing while sitting at UK. The first preference for him is to save his future and provide a good return to his elders for their efforts and investment. We would be the biggest hypocrites if we ignore this fact. If some one puts in his 4 to 5 years in ACCA and his parents tell every one that their son is doing chartered accountancy. Now CA has a repute and expectation level generally. When their son will complete ACCA and the results would not be as expected, every one could have a shock. This is what required to be told to the students who feel ACCA and ACA are same things. Whoever discusses with me, I tell him these are not the same.
Globalization!!! If some one is happier with having an ACCA qualification, it is good for him. But do you feel any where in the world it is better than the main (biggest) charter holders of the countries in specific. I mean in Pakistan, is it better than CA honestly?, in UK is it better than ICAEW's CA honestly speaking?, in Autralia is ACCA better than CA of ICAA? Do you think so honestly speaking? In Canada, is it better than CA of Canadian Institute of chartered accountants? Do you really feel ACCA is better than CPA in USA?......and so on..... Leave the things like what the study material they developed, how they helped students (who were not getting through other qualifications), and bala bala. Just tell me with above specific reference, where ACCA is better than the biggest charter holder of any specific country. I don't know of which globalization you are talking about. Do you mean by globalization that wherever some one is faced by failures, ACCA rescues him? I donât have any definite observations against ACCA but these are just the answers of your questions.
Things should be clarified I think.
Here again I don't talk about the ones who have ACCA as an additional qualification. In my view additional qualifications are very good to have international recognitions, vast activities at various forums, having diversified sources of information....[do you close down all other news channel if you have one say BBC].....and getting the benefits of developments made by different minds of different regions.
Why people of Pakistan are crazy for extra qualifications? Is it some thing wrong you feel? If you feel, I donât comment on your personal conclusion. I think we should thank God if some one wishes to educate his-self further. We are basically un-educated nation. Why should we oppose the idea of improving education and qualification? I could not get hold of your thinking and conclusion. After all no one will give his membership freely without testing you as per his standard. Yes, there could be difference in standards and one has to make the choice for the best. This is what I want to convey.
Short route's philosophy has already been well discussed. To a Pakistani CA (at Pakistan) any additional foreign qualification may not pay any material returns. He does not have to adopt a short route to get something overnight. Mind it. He has already done with this craze. Is not he? If you try to understand the reason why people want to have additional qualifications even without having additional returns you can yourself get the answer.
Hope you will not mind my submissions and give them a thoughtful consideration.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- Shahbaz - 03-03-2008
Kamran ACA pai hawla ho jayeen. )