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+--- Thread: icap has reduced the exemption of acca to c module (/showthread.php?tid=4926)
- accountingunlimited - 03-03-2008
Dear All
Thanks again for spending so much time on the mail.
It seems like by pointing towards the interest of Kamran ACA I have either pushed wrong button or Kamaran ACA has taken it personal offence, which in any case was not my intention.
First of all I started discussing the quality of ACA coming out firms not the firms. I clearly mentioned in second line of my post that leave the statistics, elections etc because I am sure being qualified you know the difference between qualitative and quantitative. So if you dont wonder its good for you.
Being an instructor and teacher I have a habit of giving examples, so if I mention 2-3 people out of majority it doesnt mean they are the only one, that is why I took examples from professional and student level and their mentors / teachers to make it easy.
Secondly your comment 'I think you have just picked up one of my posts and made all your conclusions.......' shows your great psychic abilities that what conclusions I am drawing. If I am not wrong few days ago on the same forum may be under any other thread somone said something similiar regarding your affiliation with firm or test supervision etc and you made a good reply to the person. Now you are doing the same.Interesting.
Coming to ICAEW, if someone is doing it for setteling in UK he should consider
Does he have / will have sufficient experience and knowledge of UK tax and Laws, as people gain these skills and knowledge in articleship in their respective countries according to their laws etc.
Again if some people leave CA for reason of failure and join ACCA and then coming back to ACA.......etc I had mentioned enough in 3rd paragraph of my last post about them.
Thirdly specialisation, you valuable comment
'You are just revolving your feet from your own words where you said specialization is necessary. I agree specialization comes with practice; I am the biggest advocate of this idea. But I also feel that for specialization, it is never a bad idea to have extra qualifications'.
Anyone reading this sentence can conclude who has revolved 360 degrees buy reading it carefuly and identifying the word 'BUT'.
Fourthly Globalisation, you started the paragraph with globalisation and ended again with comparison of ACA and ACCA qualifications. In my opinion this is a established fact that every qualification is different from another and the same thing I mentioned in my first post in last few lines. So repeating it again is a fruitless exercise. As far as students are concerned they have all the means available for them to investigate what is good for them.
Now if you compare ACCA with specific charter holder country then you go into micro prospective. The ACA qualification of every country is focused on the needs of that country, not to mention tax and law which are obvious but also economic conditions, trade treaty etc. When I talk globalisation and you say 'I don't know of which globalization you are talking about', you better consult some ACA who has done foreign secondment, I am sure he will be in a better position to explain you. It is a simple phenomena and you can understand it easily if you take off the dark glasses of the impression that people do ACCA because they fail in ICAP. In other parts of the world nobody think like that.
You dont want to talk about study structure of ACCA or other ACA bodies as you said 'Leave the things like what the study material they developed, how they helped students (who were not getting through other qualifications), and bala bala'. As we are talking about ACCA therefore I mentioned them otherwise ACA offering bodies other than ICAP have very defined structure. No wonder you are not interested in it because you may have never came across with it in you ACA studies.
I do watch BBC but I dont watch other channels for same news. Do you read Dawn and News of the same day for same news?
Lastly your term 'Extra Qualification', My dear qualification is never extra, now you have coined the term its shows the attitute towards the qualification, which is 'Extra'. I was pointing on the same attitute. I also asked what is the use of the qualification which you cannot imply in your practical professional life?
The answer which you didnt provide is 'Nothing' because it is 'Extra' and what we do with extra things
Nothing.
The last paragraph of you post is very good for you to read. You may have written it unconciously but it is very good. Read it and think why people in Pakistan have this mentality? Why an ACA of UK is not willing to get membership of institute of Canada, Austrailia, USA etc or vice versa. Why only Pakistani think like that.
Lastly I dont mind any submission because I take them with open and broad vision. Would expect same from you.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
- kamranACA - 03-04-2008
Dear,
It has been interesting post from you. I already told you that nothing is a question of personal ego. Again 'but' will come. But some posts invite attention and require replies.
You are again standing on only the stance of study materials for ACCA's advocacy.
I already agreed that yes this could be an achievement for ACCA but this does not make it as a best available choice. You quoted examples (just for the sake of example) of Mr. Zaidee and Mr. Sidat. Did they study ACCA text to reach the level on which they are? Did Albert Einstein, Newton, Abdusalam and others like them used such study texts (in their fields)? I submitted to your kind self that to get more you have to put more. By large, the ones who lead are not the ones who only restrict theirsleves to study texts or notes or other restricted materials. Study materials can help some one on some area but making extensive reading could never be concluded as a vague idea. I told you that I inter-alia in my studies used CIMA books. Does CIMA or ACCA or else prohibit any one else to study its books?
You talk about globalization and also restrict the efforts of such institutes on idvidual basis. ACCA born much much after development of double entry accounting system and so many other professional developments. It has used all the work of others (u know ACCA did not propose any new accounting system other than double entry) to develop its own study texts. It's however not bad to use the work of others. Every one is doing the same. You, as you say, are a teacher and should be knowing this fact. It's good to make efforts for students 'but' studies should not be restrcited only to study texts. One should know that these study texts have ben derived from some source books. Is there any issue in going for them.
People are using the works of ancient writers in all areas. Research is always carried this way. You know ICAP also developed or got developed its study texts some 12 years back (may be more than it). Have you thrown an eye on them. There could be some deficiency in it but it would be removed with the passage of time. Still, ICAP officially recommends so many quality source books to be studied. It's not bad at all.
I don't know if news channels categorise the news and divide them among theirselves so that each news channel give different news for viewers like you so that you leave BBC and go on CNN for watching some other sort of news (materially speaking). In Pakistan their are now almost 10 (or more) news channel and I hardly see them giving materially different news. Still people watch these all channels. You case could be different. There could be special channels for special people.
The word 'extra' has been much rubbed by you. It's just an effort to deduce a wrong meaning. I could not understand while deducing the meaning this why way you forgot the term "extra-ordinary". Can you put 'extra' used here to a meaning of your choice. You say you are a teacher. I did not see a teacher deducing meanings this way. There could be so many examples where 'extra' instead of reducing the importance has increased it rather. The one who does not have any "extra-curricular" activities was not liked by our teachers. They called them book worms. There was a class-period during our college times that was probably called "tutorial period" where such "EXTRA-CURRICULAR" activities / discussions were carried out in the presence of teachers. I don't know how have you been teaching. There might be some different standards you have. Don't mis-use the things mentioned by others. This cannot enhance your ego. Rather, come up with good points please. The Hadees that "Even go to China for the sake of knowledge and education" shows something if we concentrate. There is a push to get extra-ordinary and "extra" knowledge and education and qualifications. There is no restriction. It was not said in Hadees that only get what is available in ARAB and then keep on practicing it. Pitty on this thought.
You say that from small firms you meant to point out where from the CAs are coming. You don't take into account my reply to this fact. I told you that CAs are coming in very very short quantum from such firms. I gave you some figures for which you mentioned
"As far as statistics and council members, elections etc are concerned leave it for the time being, I know many council members (present and ex) and partners of large firms (again present and retired)."
I don't argue about ur knowledge regarding council and partners. Also as per my view if you are not a partner in such a firm it would be a matter of preference or opportunities. This cannot undermine your worth. Still, CAs don't at large come from those very small firms who don't have qulaity work. I argue that quality work is not restricted to just big 4 firms.
As regards to any CA who 'may' plan (not certainly) he should know all rules and regulations of the particular country to which he is proceeding, I can only draw attention to 888 CAs already working aboad (you would be one of them) out of 4110 in total. This is approximately 22 % of total CAs produced by ICAP in over 60 years. I must say they are very much welcomed in Pakistan if they are not getting right what they expected before leaving Pakistan. If they are staying at other destinations they must be doing well. Yes, there could be some rare adverse examples but I am talking about large sample of the population. So, if any body would plan to do so, will be doing so keeping in view all factors as you feel that even students know everything in this era (I think there would be many who don't and this could be seen from the posts they mail here on this forum).
I cannot understand why you feel CAs from ICAEW don't get memberships of other institutes. I feel if they move to some other country they definitely do it. Don't you see so many ICAEW qualified CAs and ACCA qualified people who are members of ICAP? Same is the situation at other places. Check ICAEW and others' members working abroad and see it. ICAEW's membership is "almost" available to chartered accountants of Australia and many of them do get such membership. Find it out at Australia. I can tell you so many foreign CAs and other professionals who while settling down at USA get to do CPA.
CPA is also available in China and some other countries. Now I dont know whether or not it is under USA.
I already explained and again place on record that when I say people (in Pakistan particularly) go to ACCA due to failure in CA, I never categories those who did ACCA after CA or did CA after ACCA. "Extra" (additional, more, increasing) qualifications is not a bad idea. It could be bad in your opinion.
Now as far as submissions are concerned. You have not pressed any such button, becoz had you done this, the button might have given you some shock. I estimate you are not shocked. Either the button was very much safe or you did not touch it. Did you touch? Have it shocked?
This discussion is becoming again un-ending and without getting to a right conclusion since I don't agree what you say and you don't agree to what I say. Would it not be better to close down this topic?
If not, let me know.If you wish to press some button also let me know.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- accountingunlimited - 03-04-2008
Dear Kamran ACA
I am very disappointed with your latest post, you missed out so many things in anger.
Firstly your claim that I am on the only stance of study materialof ACCA is incorrect. Please see 3rd last paragraph of my last post.
Secondly your evaluation of ACCA's age is based on its existence in Pakistan. For your kind information ACCA was established between 1903-1906. I am sure you are aware when ICAP was formed. So you can decide who's research is older and more tested?
Thirdly your analysis regarding news channels is very funny. I dont blame you because whenever I have taught any ICAP student, they ask same question in 99% cases that 'Sir, what if we do the same topic from Gupta and thereafter from Spicer and Pegler etc to get better understanding,. I have to tell them you can get better practice by doing the same topic from different sources but understanding you get from basic concepts and that is what you use in every question. So I am not surprised.
Fourthly, the 'extra' which acted as a catalyst. Your valuable comment 'There could be so many examples where 'extra' instead of reducing the importance has increased it rather' is a very good one. Please reconsider your previous post where you have used it. The holy hadith emphasises on 'knowledge' and its importance. If you are using holy hadith as reason for obtaining memebership of professional bodies, then feel pitty for yourself.
Fifthly, The small firms issue, I asked you to leave it because this is a seperate debate that why the internees of small firms do not qualify or do not go upto the final stages? (You have clearly mentioned this in your post that it is fact).You have argued quite often that quality work is not restricted to big firms but you were unable to provide proper basis. Yes you have mentioned rare cases, with which I fully agree. However, they are exceptions and we are talking about masses.
As far as ACA's from Pakistan working in international scenario are very competent and you are right they are sticking in their jobs because of their competency. One fact which you should accept is, that, they have to undertake certain papers to equip themselves with appropriate knowledge of the local market.
Now your concern about ICAEW members. You have answered it yourself i.e if they are moving to any other territory only then they are interested. It is because of compulsory nature. Same is the case with Pakistani ACA which are working abroad or have migrated as mentioned above. I was pointing the ACA's which are in Pakistan, very happy and satisfied with their profession and at the same time struggling to get memebership of another foreign institute of same nature to add few more letters against their name. You will not find this culture in memebers of professional bodies of another countries.
I reproduce a line from my post
It seems like by pointing towards the interest of Kamran ACA I have either pushed wrong button or Kamaran ACA has taken it personal offence, which in any case was not my intention.
I have mentioned two possibilities clearly distincting with 'or'. In the second last paragraph of your post, you have proved one is correct. Thank you very much for offering more buttons for pressing. With due respect can I ask what options I have got?
If in your opinion discussion is not proving worthy and you want to withdraw.Its upto you, we dont have any obligation or binding.
I would like to request other members to offer their valuable comments. So we can see a bigger picture.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
- kamranACA - 03-05-2008
Dear Accountingunlimited,
There was no anger as I said at some other thread. It was just like for the like. Don't feel it odd.
Yes, as far as buttons are concerned, you can tell here at this forum, which sort of buttons of other guys, you are typically used to press? You might find some one found of experimenting the same. I, however, have no habit of getting the buttons pressed by the similar stuff. This is again like for the like. Now, you should stop this topic because I donât want to use similar words further.
ICAP is not the only CA institute in the world and I was actually telling you that every one uses the work of others for development and research. You might be knowing what Japan has ever done and what China is now doing. There is no wonder in it. However, if ACCA is so older, it creates further issues about whatever it has so far achieved in over 100 years.
Your Gupta and Spicer examples don't conclude anything. You say that it is better to study both of them but the basic concept is same. You said
"I have to tell them you can get better practice by doing the same topic from different sources but understanding you get from basic concepts and that is what you use in every question. So I am not surprised."
Might some one better understand what you eventually conclude by writing the above lines? You don't oppose reading more than one book though you feel concept cannot be improved by doing so but practice can be improved. What this concludes in nutshell? I am not so wise to understand this wise statement. Does the concept flows from the skies? If one does not get it cleared by reading one book or learning from a learned teacher like you, is there any bar to study more educational material? You are surprised. It's good. Remain surprised.
You typically appear to undermine Pakistani students while discussing their approach as you did in above lines irrespective of the fact that you had been a Pakistani student as well. The problem of guys like you is that you are much impressed from franggies. I know they are very much advanced and we are behind them but still in my view we should not lose our entity. We are not behind them in our personal capabilities and potential. Do you need me to list down those who were not franggies but remained better in their achievements than franggies? Pakistan could have so many issues due to its political and location reasons but Pakistanis are not inferior to anyone in the world in their potential and abilities. It may not be bad to find a future in other countries but please don't over-act against Pakistani students. You may in your own-self have so many problems. Explore and correct them first.
Is it some Fatwa from you that there should be some pity on one who wants to get more qualifications (it's not without having required knowledge and a test of capabilities so it's not simply a membership) in accordance with the HADEES which states that "knowledge should be enhanced/sought even if some one is required to go to China". I did not know you can issue fatwaâs.
You said
"You have argued quite often that quality work is not restricted to big firms but you were unable to provide proper basis. "
Did any body require basis from me at this forum? Certainly no body did. And if you wish to do it I am not bound (though I may do it) to reply you. This needs to conduct a survey by someone unless he knows it due to some other reasons. Have you gone to each firm, that may be from 5 to 30 numbers, and checked which clients, nature of assignments and professional work they are carrying out? For instance, I know a firm that is not among the big 4 but list of their clients and assignments (in brief) is normally covered on almost 100 pages when they prepare their profile for upcoming clients and one may not find any big area and client which is not included in it. This could be seen in so many cases which don't fall in big 4.
If you are not in profession you cannot know it in detail. Arguments may not satisfy you. I have seen people going to such firms even after consulting people like Mr. Zaidee. If you really want to know you should make a struggle for it.
Further, a firm which is now in big 4 might have not been among them some time back. MYASCO is in big 4 and was not in them in recent history. They even after going into big 4 have lost one of their offices though it may not make too much difference for them or they don't feel it as such. I don't see huge shift in their clients after getting into big 4. They were already not doing bad. I don't think tag of big 4 has changed their world overnight.
[I think you have some psyche problem with the issue of firms. Did anybody deny accepting you as a prominent part of some firm. You may or may not reply it but normally people go into teaching due to such reasons and talk against firms and partners due to their own history.]
I was submitting exact the same thing that if some one is moving or in any part of his plan have the idea to move any where, it would be better if he has the qualification of his destination station. I also feel that even if some one does not have a plan he should do it. Is there any point in not doing so? Say some thing (may God this donât happen) create problems with the country in which one is living and he feels it better to leave or is bound to leave, would it not be better if he already has something like such foreign qualification? I just mean to say what is wrong in it? (By the way have you ever read about disaster recovery plans? If you teach others about this then why donât you personally believe in it). In this latest post now you have restricted the scope of your view point and mentioned that it is only inappropriate for those to have additional qualifications / memberships who don't have to move out of the country. Here you are getting specific to country level while for same thing (though in quite different context) you some where in earlier posts criticized me and said I should not consider the problems of students specifically at Pakistan level due to globalization. I don't know where you will sit with peace. Earlier you said no ICAEW member get additional memberships and now you say this happens if some one goes abroad. Do you need to know those who are ICAEW or ACCA members (UK nationals) working at UK and have more than one qualification without moving to other countries? If I will give you some names then where you will get to find rescue? I just request you not to debate baseless.
Now you are calling the help of others by asking them to participate in discussion to see some big picture. Itâs amazing. Have I not helped you so far in seeing it? Have you ever heard Abrar-ul-Haqâs song âAIDHER AA MAJAAJNIEY NEE AADHA LAA MAJAAJNIEYâ. I am just kidding though there is no such deal between us. Itâs good for you to get help from others.
Thanks God you accepted competency of ICAP members working abroad. If they qualify any thing additional or "extra" it is again their own achievement. Not blessed by you or your ACCA or else.
You see friend, I have a habit to discuss the dissenting / critical issues first. You may find it some impression problem.
Yes, I may anytime decide to leave this purposeless discussion. I just don't want to make you feel that you are teacher to every one. I am by the way not a teacher, rather am a student. Man has to learn life long.
Stay cool.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- accountingunlimited - 03-06-2008
Dear Kamran ACA
No wonder you did not understand the example. You dont need to because you have qualified. In a nut shell it means first get the concept properly and then apply it on any number of questions. Rather than the other way. The practice of large number of questions without proper grip of concept creates confusion. Is it still complicated?.
Now you have somehow managed to find me undermining the Pakistani students. Well you have completely failed in it. Come up with some other idea. If you have come to this conclusion because of my Gupta and Spicer example, you mentioned you did not understand it completely, so you make wrong conclusions in such circumstances.
In next paragraph you declared me Mufti. Just because I pointed the use of holy Hadith by you for acquiring benefits which are for use of this world.
Now I am required to provide basis for you statement. If you qualify a report of a client, do you ask them to provide reasons for your qualifying of report?
I think you missed you my point in last which was about small firms and their internees. Why are you beating about the bush taking big and medium size firms in your latest post?
I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for making me laugh by a funny psycho-analysis of mine.
Now coming to the main point of foreign affiliations. I am sure you ran to the text book to find some good reason for this. Initially when I asked you the reason for going for ICAEW and CFA when you cannot utilize them in Pakistan, there was no such plan. Maybe the current explosions prompted you to think about disaster. I have not only taught but also implied it in my life and that I why I am sitting here. By the way being member of a prestigious institute and planning for foreign affiliations shows who is more inspired by 'frangi'.
I am always in peace, you better ask youself. The people who have peace in themselves never ask others for theirs.
If by asking the opinion of others you think I am asking for help. You are absolutely wrong. I am a person who ask for help only from Almighty Allah. Maybe you believe in other means.
I always take things positively otherwise I could have taken your opinion of ending the disscussion negatively and could have said that you are on your knees and begging to leave you ......... other rubbish etc. But I welcomed it and may be you dont have experience at this time but whenever we (professionals) conclude anything we ask all the members for their say.
I found your habit of disucssing the dissenting / critical issues your way and you want to conclude them in your way.
It doesnt happen all the time.
You wrote you are a student, I would advice you to become a learner rather than student because, Man has to learn life long.
Ice cool like always.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
I am sure you are thinking that I have tried to play with words in 'student' and 'learner', but it is a fact they do differ. I can tell you if you want.
- kamranACA - 03-06-2008
Dear Accounting Unlimited,
First getting the concept properly and then applying it on any number of questions is some other thing and feeling that one should not go to Spicer if he has read Gupta (or vice versa) is some other thing. If some body is not getting the concept by reading one book he should try the other. This carries no bar.
Further, even if the concept is clear by reading one book, is there any restriction to get it more clear by reading some other quality books. What a logic you have my friend? For concept only one book and for practice so many others. Mashallah. If practice in so many other books can give diversified knowledge then why not in concept more than one book can work. Is it banned by some well studied (I will not use learned as you have completed with your studies and I donât) guy like you so that minds are prohibited by default to get the concept further clearer.
One thing I must say that people like you tend to close the minds of their students. I see some students who know IFRS, standards and the things like what you say but when they work they cannot interpret the things practically beyond the limits of IFRS and other things interpretted to them by few books and learned teachers. They dont apply innovative ideas. They cannot offer any solution or product that is not told to them by teachers like you who donât let them or advise them to study and practice vigorously. You know some one has developed these IFRS and some one can (and even has to) change them as well in future. Research is required, problems have to be faced, mind has to be applied. There would never be a single concept technically all over the world and mentioned by all writers in the books.
There could be so much difference in approach and methodology for treating the same thing by different way outs. So complexed transactions and issues have to be faced in practical lives which, a man reading just one book and basing all concepts on merely one book or material, cannot even think about. For being a professional and for being updated, every effort is needed and nothing should be prohibited so far as it pertains to the focused profession and future objectives.
This is a general rule. I don't have a claim to have read all books and got all knowledge. This is a process of studying as well as learning. I am a student (though learner as well) and I don't see it reducing my position. You may see such things. You may one day find some difference between GOD and ALLAH and interfere othersâ language issues. You will appreciate that some difference exists between God and Allah. So you can say anything. This is the matter of what comes to mind. This is not a matter of what is concentrated by mind. You could be much wise and this wisdom is reflected in whatever you say. The extent, to which you feel concerned about words and language, depicts your interests in languages. Why you are wasting your time in accounting. Do opt for language studies and research. You may have some aptitude for it. This is just a friendly advice.
You pointed out that the use of holy Hadith by me for acquiring benefits which are for use of this world is not good. I will think on it. âButâ I feel that these AHADEES and guidance is to be used every where. Had this not been a case, there Naoozbillah would have been no importance for guiding us to go even to China for acquisition of knowledge since it was a worldly issue (as the religious knowledge was at ARAB) and why HADEES was Naoozbillah investing time in such issues. Islam is a lifeâs code. Do you agree? If you agree then there is nothing to disagree. If we will place world somewhere else and AKHRAT some where else then this may lead to worsen the worldly deeds done without the light of such guidance. Will not it? You may have different opinion. So many guys can have.
I have completely failed in saying that you tend to undermine Pakistani students. So you did pass. Congrats. Just to mention that when one says that I always see this problem in bala bala students and not anywhere else at franggiesâ country (while it is every where) then what would it mean for while nothing such thing is prohibited worldly, religiously, logically and conceptually. Do you still have to debate on proving it illogical?
No body was qualifying a report by saying that there could be good firms from number five to (say) number 30. Eyes can see it. In your earlier post you were talking only about big firms, I only clarified that after big there is a category which is not small and small do not typically produce huge number of CAs. I donât say that there is no small firm at all. I just say that their contribution is very meager and rarely any one gets qualified there-from. Eyes can locate and see. Do try for it. Yes for having knowledge after all one has to make an effort. If some one feels it wrong and wants to prove to the contrary he should institute some effort. Should he not? As far as qualifying the reports and reasons are concerned, you should re-visit the whole scenario. It is a two way process. Where the auditors have to state justification and have to quantify the impact of their qualification, the directors do have to, in response, address the issue raised by them in qualification, in their directors report published along with accounts /submitted to authorities. In Pakistan see section 236 of CO84 for Directorsâ responsibility in this regard. So effort has to be made by every one. Sweet dish is not likely to be found. However, no one is auditor here and no one is director. Is it so?
I am not a teacher who would run to texts for finding reasons. This ability rests with teachers only. Yes I get guidance from books to build up concepts and to study and learn. Replies to fellows like you could be given by personal interpretations and understanding. This is what concept is needed for. Yes, you can think that ICAEW and CFA qualifications cannot be used at Pakistan. I donât feel. It could be the matter of knowledge of sector specific requirements. How can I comment on your mindâs data-base regarding what requirements are there in Pakistanâs economy and in other countries. Pakistan is the country where investment of billion dollars had been rushing in recent years. It was at second top during these years among south Asian countries after China. Projects in every sector have been started and privatizations have invited investors of high net-worth in Pakistan.
This is ocean of profession and how one can say there is no application of such qualifications is beyond my apprehension. Reason may be that I am a student and you are a teacher (though not mine). Again I think one has to see whatâs going on to avoid giving vague statements. I can prove everything against what you have said and what you are saying specifically with reference to Pakistan and these qualifications. I can give you number of names of foreign qualified foreigners who are at foreign and have more than one memberships and qualifications. I can give you number of names of firms who are medium and have quality work (5 to 30 numbers probably). I can give you number of references where ICAEW and CFA can have a vast requirement here in Pakistan. But I just donât want to make an effort for a person who is educated ignorant. Had it been a student I might have done this for him. Stay cool. You are not correct. Mind it.
Current explosions could be a reason but I said it by seeing 60 years plus history of Pakistan. What cannot happen here. I love my country and any of such statement cannot reduce patriotism. This was to discuss a thing which may be made a part of plan. Donât you believe in this? Even if we are muslims examples of Habsha, Madina and others were given for humans in general and muslims in specific. There is nothing wrong in having plans. This cannot make any one franggee. However, by proving the âstudents and people of Pakistanâ as inferior to franggies could be termed as some inspiration from them. Yes, I agree that inspiration for good is not wrong. But inspiration for bad and making unjustifiable statements is wrong.
Itâs really good if you were not asking help from others. And rest assured no body was on knees if wished to reduce the mess. I told you like gets like. This was just a good gesture to ask you for reduction of mess. If you donât believe in reducing, I will keep on cleaning, for the sake of saving the new generation of Pakistan from wrong ideas spread by teachers like you.
Thanks for all advises and suggestions.
At the end I donât challenge your grip on languages, as said earlier. So stay happier.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- accountingunlimited - 03-07-2008
Dear Kamran ACA
As expected when you get the understanding what I mean by concept and understanding you as usual ruled it out as some other thing as follows
'First getting the concept properly and then applying it on any number of questions is some other thing and feeling that one should not go to Spicer if he has read Gupta (or vice versa) is some other thing'. After that just for the sake of argument you wasted your time on other 2 paragraphs.
As far as IFRS is concerned every professional knows that after the exposure draft the implication of standard is checked and then it is implimented. After implementing and encountering further changes are made. It proves step by step approach. Thats what I am talking about, students should get the grip of the concept, apply it, find difficulty, clear it by further studies. Rather than otherway.
I appreciate you friendly advice regarding languages. I would like to give you a friendly advice as well to join newspaper or digest as story writer, maybe you can start with 'Accountant'.
The problem you mentioned regarding students is everywhere, I am sure you have reasonable grounds saying that, have you met students and professionals all over the world? or you said it just to nullify the argument?
I asked you a simple question that when auditor qualifies a report, who is responsible to give reason for qualification?
simple answer is Auditor. To hide your face you first dived into the firms, then director's responsibility, then Companies Ordinance 1984 and ended up with no body is auditor here. Which we all know.
Finally you admit that concept is important than books in case of disaster recovery plan. In first 3 paragraphs you have different opinion. Can you make up your mind which ideology you support or you are confused.
Its good you feel that ICAEW and CFA qualifications are practically useful in Pakistan at this time, may I repeat my question HOW? Every body knows about flowing of investments and economic growth, but my question to you is how as a professional you can apply that? If you can give statistic of firms, students, professionals (including aborad), even the mindset of farangi students and professionals, why you are finding it difficult to give some example in your own case? So who is giving vague statements?
Your patriotism can been seen by your plans of acquiring foreign affiliations and flee from country.
Proving students and people of Pakistan inferior may be a development of your mind. In my previous posts I have talked enough about good professionals and their hard work. My concern is the inferior approach, which they have adopted by choice.'Eyes cannot locate it' but Vision can.
Its good you want to keep cleaning the mess you created. Good job, keep it up. Infact try not to create mess, so you dont have to clean it.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
- kamranACA - 03-07-2008
Dear,
If your so-called vision can locate the things, I wonder why don't you locate the requirements of foreign qualifications here in Pakistan. Arguments are necessary where something is likey to be clarified. There is no question of doubts over increasing requirements of CA either these are from Pakistan or ICAEW. I told you that only 3222 CAs are available in Pakistan. So any body who would come up with CA will not find any sort of problem. They are always required. There was a time when partners of big firms were only those who were UK qualified. This situation is materially same even at the moment. Multinationals, foreign financed companies, big refineries, international banks etc have CAs of ICAEW. You are at UK, get the statitcs of ICAEW members working at Pakistan. This may broaden your vision.
As far as CFA is concerned, in earlier days its utilization was not enormous. But now there are so many local and international banks who are undertaking major investment projects (you can see that in Pakistan banks have become a commodity and mergers/take overs have become a routine process). Stock markets rarely go down significantly irrespective of political unrest and has touched the historical ever highest limits in 100 index and 30 index. Capital market improvement has lead extreme shift in the securities business / investments, as well as emergence of companies/groups like AKD, Arif Habib, Jahangir Siddiqui etc who always look forward to take up big projects in each sector. Privatization plans of government could be seen from the web of Privatization Commission which gives an extensive length of companies to be privatized among which 26 major big projects are in hand for the current year. Due to this so many foreign companies have established their offices in Pakistan and typically require CFAs being in M&A stage. You can see examples of ABRAAJ, AL-GHURAIR, NOOR FINANCIAL and GULF-CAP etc. I have personaly dealt with assignments of privatization for these comapnies and personally know CFAs working over there. Yes these cannot be in thousands becoz supply is very short but this does not depict a short demand as well.
Apart from above, the business of mutual funds and NBFCs like Asset Management Companies is at peak. In fact the whole financial sector is at peak in Pakistan. People have been fed up of investments in properties due to severely declining returns (as it has gone to such increase over the period which could be called a limit) and now every body is investing in these businesses. Check how the net assets value of these funds is going up. NAFA, NIT, ABAMCO, UBL funds, JS funds and so many could be quoted as examples. Come down and see the CFAs working over there. Further they upcoming have a demand for CFAs. If there does not appear some abundance or they are rare, this is due to issue of supply and not of demand.
CFAs can find their place in professional firms offering services of risk management, transaction advisory, corporate finance, valuations and financial modeling, due diligence studies, insolvency and other related areas. Do you have doubts that firms do or not do this business. Recently Karachi Shipyard advertised to get services from consulting consortia for designing, lay outing, financial modeling and option studying regarding two big shipyards to be constructed in public private modaility basis at port Qasim and Gwadar. I contacted big shipyard constructing companies of UK for technical association and come to know that most of them were already contacted by other firms. This is just one example. If you have worked for any transaction advisory assignment you may know how much professional people are required in Pakistan. One man cannot do anything on all fronts. This is in fact the time of collaboration and wide expertise. So this is the situation which grants a big requirement of CFAs in upcoming days even in professional firms. Some are alreday there. The issue again is of supply and not of demand.
I think if you have to understand through your "Vision" you should undersand by now. If you don't want to understand then so many people like you do exist in this world who cannot change the facts but always speak against them. In punjabi there is a phrase "GIRJAAN DAY AAKHIYAAN TAGGEY NAI MARDEY HONDDEY". You can know what I said if you understand punjabi. Otherwise you don't normally understand the things. Your all above efforts show this fact. So my statement is not vague. think about your vision.
Yes , you are right I might have wasted my time in these two paragraphs referred by you becoz these were addressed to a man like you and this is called to play some instrument in front of some one. I agree to you. Still thanks God you agreed that studying additional books may not create problem if concept is not clear. Hope you will now study such books. It's great you know IFRS development process. My effort remained fruitful to this extent. Exposure drafts are developed by consensus and then so much deliberation is made and even dissenting comments are given at the end of IFRS after finalization and periodically IASs have to be improved and changed to bring some global convergence to meet the requirements like reporting for cross border offerings, ADRs and GDRs and other issues of IOSCO. If this is the process, this does not come from skies. Concentrate on it. Don't reply merely for reply. Though I know (keeping in view your aptitude) you will not do what is required.
Thank you for your suggestion for me to write in some journals etc. I do agree on it. I am in the process of doing and will do it in future. Thanks.
Some of your words cast doubt over how many audits you might have seen where auditors have qualified the opinion. Normally auditors no where explain why they qualified except in the qualification itself. Always management has to explain why auditor has qualified. This is what I we see here in Pakistan. There could be some difference in foreign countries. Authorities always inquire irectors why report was qualified. Management has to defend itself becoz the qualification always speaks why it is there. If it does not speak, this would not be a qualification. Have you ever seen some qualified report?
Patriotism cannot be harmed if any body visits other countries and even if migrates due to unavoidable reasons. Your vision may not understand it. So its useless to tell you more on it. And if the case is what you say then where do you personally fall? I just have plan in extreme situation which may or may not be implemented while you are already done with it.
If you say that you don't have negative opinion about Pakistani people then it must be given importance. Try to improve your vision about "approach" as well. The same approach has created worldly heros. Would you require me to give you details as you childishly discussed the requirement of CAs of ICAEW and CFAs in Pak and more than one qualification of foreigners etc. Political unrest and corruption of a specific category of people is a different thing. If you talk about that I agree on it. But if you speak about abilities, you have to revisit your statements.
The one who cleans his own mess is very normal as every one has to do it. It's the time to clean the mess of people like you to save public at large. And this is what we learn from a best code either worldly terms or on religious grounds. Some one should be there to do it.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- accountingunlimited - 03-08-2008
Dear Kamran ACA
By the grace of Almighty Allah I have no doubt on my vision. Again it seems like I have put fingers on the pulse (no buttons)unintentionally.
As far as progress in financial sector in Pakistan is concerned, no doubt it is massive. Even stock exchange (KSE 100 index) crossed 15000 landmark few days ago. All of the above mentioned sectors and developments you have mentioned can be easily handled by ACA's. The biggest privatisation deal in Pakistan of PTC was tackled by them.
If you take a look of the CFA curriculum then you would be in a better position to understand that those markets do not exist in Pakistan at the moment where CFA's actually play their role. The need you are talking about is a job of ACA's which due to non development and poor growth was limited to Audit, Tax and to some extent to consultancy. Now the scope of ACA's has got broaden.
You have again wasted your time in explaining IFRS development procedure when you generously agreed that I have some knowledge of it. It is evident from you previous posts that whenever you have agreed (as there was no other choice) you have tried to elaborate the terms for no reasons and have passed a degrading remark on me, just to satisfy your false ego. It also highlights the person's character that what he has got with himself to offer to others.
As far as qualified opinion is concerned, maybe I have to remind you that it is given when
1) there is a scope limitation.
2) a departure from GAAP exist.
auditor is the one who decides which case implies and then he issues the opinion. Maybe you need to see some qualified reports along with working papers.
Well, as expected you pointed my patriotism under your short vision. Do you have any idea what I am doing here? I am here by choice? what are my future plans? Maybe I am serving the country here? etc. On the other hand you are very satisfied ACA with professional achievements etc (you told that, I didnt guess that). So do you think your and mine case is same? or you are judging things on face value.
The approach I am talking about can be seen through your posts and same with the childish behavior. When children insist on something which is not correct for them at that time, the elders do their best to convince them, but some of them have tendency to get upset and behave in inappropriate manner thinking that they are right. But they learn with passage of time.
Sometimes children do big mess and due to fear they held others responsible, while offering themselves to clean up so they can get appreciation. Keep up the good work.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
- kamranACA - 03-08-2008
Dear,
It's easier for your "broad vision" to forget the issues where you eventually had to agree with facts and left your baseless argument. If you had continued I could have proven it to your satisfaction or disatisfaction. Beleive you me. But it's good that you left such issues which shows your agreement. So don't forget it.
Whatever CFAs do, and whatever they study is known to me. You just don't know that every thing which they do has been started here although it is somewhat on early stage. I expect it would be here very soon with full swing. If you visit libraries of stock exchanges you can see how many companies have started dealing with derivatives, futures arrangements and hedges etc. etc. Capital market, you have agreed, is already in full swing. Discount rates are higher locally as against abroad and investment accordingly flows here. Beta rates are higher in stocks quoted at exchanges. Excessive risks carry excessive rewards. This requires huge portfolio management issues. This is not an extensive length. CFAs would always be required here. Demand will grow. Remain there to observe.
I know professional qualifications do have over-lapping curriculums and so many of subjects are common. Accordingly so many businesses are common among various professionals in business. Jobs are also common. See advertisments where ACAs and CFAs are invited altogether for the same job. Should I send you detail of some banks where on similar jobs (at different banks) there are CFAs and ACAs working on elevated posts? In other examples, just check out who is leading NIT and who is leading NAFA (two biggest and well managed funds of Pkaistan). The man leading NIT is an FCA (a very kind senior in profession) while the man leading NAFA is a CFA. I just don't want to quote names. Open eyes my brother. Yes they don't ask you or me what to do about such positions and who is more fit. So judge the situation keeping yourself out of it. I know now you will raise some other question to perplex the situation but mind it reality is not to change. I know a man of your vision may not agree to the facts so easily. If I talk about some fronts where CFAs are needed it does not say there are no other fronts in which they get expertise. I only quoted examples. But your broad vision don't understand such things. What to say?
I did not know my agreeing to the development process of IFRS written by you could bring so much amount of pleasure for you. But you ignored that I said IFRSs don't come from skies. To comment on them, to dissent on them and to give new ideas for them requires open minds and wide knowledge and understanding. This is not just a matter of qualifying exams. Teachers like you should now stop giving guesses and tips and quoting study materials of their own choices. Let the people do hard work for their own-selves and for a collective betterment and improvement.
I don't know why you are there and what you would be doing there. You are a teacher who don't see what is said or submitted by other. I just asked you to put yourself in same plate and see where do you fall as per definition of patriotism given by you. You called in question the issue of patriotism. Did you cosult everything before making such comments. In fact you are the so-called decent person who does not see his deeds. I told you "like" is replied by "like". Don't forget the formula. If you would judge merely the words on face value, you will also be judged same way. Stay cool.
When you discuss "Approach" of pakistanis in the way you attempted, I wonder are you happened to be from some other race? Look back, you are also one of them whose approach is narrow in your broad vision. If it is narrow, try to broad it please.
Sometimes the one who is called the child (childish has different meaning; you are master of languages; you may know) proves his-self to the contrary. I don't use specific words.
Keep it up and come with some sound basis.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- idreesdurrani - 03-10-2008
<font color="navy"></font id="navy"><font size="6"></font id="size6"><font face="Arial">Sorry to intrude...Ceasefire is requested.
We shall learn to respect each other! Both of you are the respected members of this forum. All the other members need more positive contributions from your side.
No offence, Plz...</font id="Arial">
- accountingunlimited - 03-11-2008
Dear Idreesdurrani
As I mentioned earlier, I feel no harm in leaving the topic which is not useful for masses and I concluded it on March 05, 2008 by accepting the proposal of Kamran ACA. Once again, owing my words of last post that a person can offer what he has, I would like to restrict myself to these lines only to avoid any other unpleasant or useless reply.
Unconditional ceasefire from my side.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
- idreesdurrani - 03-11-2008
<font color="navy"></font id="navy"><font size="4"><font color="navy"></font id="navy"><font color="maroon"></font id="maroon"><font face="Arial"></font id="Arial">Thank you Accountingunlimited..
Hope 2 receive positive feedback from Mr. KamranACA.
Regards</font id="size4">
- kamranACA - 03-11-2008
Dears,
There was no fire. Was there any?
At least on my side there was no. As accounting-unlimited says, he is a qualified man and as such he should be regarded well.
I was only concerned with any thing which may lead some one to deduce wrong conclusion for his career. So I always try for it.
Yes, indecent language is not well-positioned to get decent language in response. We should (including myself) take care of it.
Regards,
Kamran.
- idreesdurrani - 03-11-2008
<font color="navy"></font id="navy"><font size="5"></font id="size5"><font face="Arial">Itâs good to see things coming back to normal on this thread. But it seems there is hell breaking loose at our dear homeland. The wave of insecurity is reaching a new apex every other dayâ¦
Another series of bomb blasts hit Lahore leaving more than 20 dead. I donât know what is happening in this country?
I think the people are also losing interest or we are gradually turning senseless. It seems we donât care as long as we are alive, no matter who and how many dies.</font id="Arial">