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+--- Thread: Abb ACCA k Bad log CA ko monh Nahien Lagaengae. (/showthread.php?tid=5063)
- accountingunlimited - 04-18-2008
Hi Everybody
I would like to mention few things which I have learned through experience and from seniors. Most importantly anywhere in the world the main institutes like ICAP, ICAEW, ICAS, ICAA etc device policies to protect their and their member's interest rather than any other body which is fair enough. Unfortunately in some countries some so called professionals develop superiority or inferiority complexes for no reason and then they try to degrade others. Which in principal is not appropriate.It has been a long time for me to be in london where beside ICAEW, ICAS, ACCA, IPFA and other dozen of institutes and their students/members are learning and working without any conflict in a professional manner.
Some statistical records have been produced without mentioning the source and of the fact that there is a large number of part qualified ICAP students which were not able to qualify due to any reason are also working in industry and practice and they are in thousands. They neither pursued ACA studies nor they tried to join any other body to get professional qualifications. They are also favored by ACA and FCA bosses over ACCA.
Unfortunately in our nation the problem of degrading other person for no reason is found very often. People say that ACCA students/members lack behind training etc so they get lesser pay. Well, in UK the highly paid accountants are of CIMA, which in comparison with ICAEW and other professional accountancy bodies have no training or articles structure nor they have firms etc to train CIMA students/members, but still they are highly paid people.
I mentioned earlier that things take time to settle. People are happy with the ages of institutes and thinking that this will prevail but they have forgotten that in early 1950's Pakistan, Japan and Malaysia were experiencing same economic conditions but what about now? Few years ago PTV was the only source of any kind of television activity, what about now? etc So nothing is forever. Lets treat each other with respect and dignity because all of us belong to same profession.
If someone would have criticized or have passed remarks that students/members of x body are less intelligent/competent or people tend to join them after failing exams of y body etc in here UK, he/she would have been fined/prosecuted by his/her own institute in breech of professional and ethical conduct.
I am sure we all can think about it and can appreciate inclusion of more people in the profession as whole rather than of professional bodies.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
- Schuaeb - 04-18-2008
I have no idea where the above post intended to lead. I can swere that in my professional experience I have found no superiority or inferiority complex anywhere.
Things change with time. I think it is known to everyone, neither any of the examples seemed new. Entrance of professional bodies creates more competition, this is beyond any doubt. However, if we talk in the context of ACCA and ICAP, this points doesn't sound very relevant.
I think it will be more objective by analyzing the situation on the basis of the present condition instead of one's own prophesies about the future. And yes sure, if things do not change today future can be predicted to be the same
- 4thelement - 04-18-2008
WELL I THINK WE ALL SHUD STOP THIS THREAD COZ THERE ISNT ANY RESULT OF THIS THREAD
- kamranACA - 04-23-2008
Dears,
Inferiority complex is basically the problem of those who always tend to adopt the cultural, social, religious and other values of the others without having analyzed the merits and de-merits in a given environment. Islam says that "Hikmat ke baat moman kee gumshuda meeraas hai" but for meeting this criteria the BAAT should be of HIKMAT. It must not be "BHAID CHAAL" or needless inspiration from other nations without considering what priviliges our own values have and how much efficiently we can make our ownselves presentable in the worldwide scenario. We can apply this guidance on both spirtual as well as worldly issues becoz for us nothing two criterias are there to make such decisions differently.
In my view ICAEW, ACCA or any other foreign institution may have developed certain things in which we are behind them. We should try to know it by studying, discussing and exploring. We can even get to have such education / qualification, for knowledge, prominance or elevation purpose. The theme behind doing this should be explicit and purposeful.
Doing such things due to failure in certain area/field/qualification does not meet such criteria. I always said who makes a decision of his own to have such qualification, it's good for him. But whoever, who do so due to failure in CA and then make allegation on policies of ICAP by the reason of sour grapes is not praisable for any reason. Moreover, advocating such things merely becoz one has some specific interests is also strange thing. We should be fair enough to accept what is real and what exists. How much we debate to support what is expected to exist. Why not we accept what exists? Is it not strange? Does not it show some sort of complex?
So this can, if focussed, portray the true picture of people who are in inferiority complex.
The other issue of superiority complex has also been discussed in some of above posts. The people having inferiority complex always feel that the better ones have such complex. This is just a feeling of those who are in inferiority complex. In fact nothing like this happens. This could be a matter of self aspiration but there exists no such complex in fact. This is the by-product of inferiority complex.
I also wish to make it clear that it is a forum for open dicussion, explosring merits and demarits for new comers etc and no one is degrading the other. Nothing is a professional opinion given on the letter head of a qualified professional. Further, how funny is to make a comparison of so-called "advanced nations" on such issues. What not and what not they do on their media and forums. The whole muslim world cannot push such nations even for one inch on the issues of blasphemy while their masses know such things are worst at their part. Of which nations such people are inspired of and are talking about their character.
Every thing has a sphere of relevance and every sphere has to be adjudged differently. A man who is a police man should not be in such role at his home. A man who is a professional can go beyond limitations on private places and specially where he does not give his identity.
The vague statements and conclusions depict the mental situation. This is just like the thing where some one was pointed out to be calling the others for his help in a critical debate. Although he did not accept, he was doing so.
I must say we should endeavor to remain within the perspective for which the discussion is going on. It would be good to make a good debate for common knowledge building and knowing each other through such debates.
No one here is going to judge the abilities in person by making identifications. Rather, it is purposed at to explore which opportunity is better in a given environment, what should be the objective/goal, what attitude our common students have towards their objectives, how / why some one is de-tracked from his main goal etc.
Definitely every one can have different opinion and basis to conclude the things.
However, no one can fly beyond the limits of the skies. It has to be a limitation. We just have to know the limits.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- Muhammad Amir - 04-24-2008
Meray Bhai KamranACA Sahab Kahien Ka Ghussa Kahien Nikalna kia "HIKMAT KI BATT HAY"???????
further more Inferiority is having no meaning for me and i think this is the disaster for any person or nation and if they think they are inferior to others then this the start of their end. so Good Bye to Inferiors.
Superiority is another extreme of utter foolishness and the offence of superiority must have to be defended in ethical manner.
I have to say that I have Alhamdilillah never been the victim of ICAP policies nor i have some specific interests rather i have to defend the offence and slow poisoning of others and this is my ethical duty.
If you accept that ACCA is having more advanced curriculum and their exam techniques are fine then why you people are resisting them in pursuing their careers in a friendly, professional and ethical environment?, why you people become hurdle in their way if they want to start their own practice?, why CA firms are having prejudice against ACCAs? why they recruit 7 to 8 attempts CA-Inter in audit sector and one or two papers lapse ACCA in Financial Services, Risk Management and other irrelevent sectors? and last but not the least why they become hurdle in the way of beard people(I will not disclose the name of firm, there are some clear evidences of this)?
Regards,
Muhammad Amir
- kamranACA - 04-24-2008
Dear Amir,
You typically misinterpret and misconsture the things. This is called "Chore Kee Daarhi Main Tinka".
My above post was not a reply to any of your message. Every one who is going through this thread can understand it.
In this context, your all words have become vague and meaningless since you are not specifically being responded in my above post.
Your all grouses against CA firms, their attitude, and limitations on ACCAs to conduct audits etc are basically reflecting immature style of thinking. May you be in understanding of the facts after some time.
No one is against beard people. You can see such beard people in all top 20 firms. If you need I can figure out the names of people at partner/Manager level. At the moment my 4 partners are beard persons. Beard is a Sunnah and no muslim can in principle hate this Sunnah Naoozbillah. If some one is not practising it, it is something different.
Hope you can understand.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- 4thelement - 04-24-2008
i wud also like to add there is a firm where i have also seen the same thing which amir has said although i wud also not disclose the names of the individuals.
then, icap is a biased professional body which is diminishing the exemptions for ACCA members, well how foolish it is that an ICAEW member is fully exempted from ICAP and an ACCA member who just has to pass two or three papers in order to become an ICAEW member has to pass 8 papers of ICAP to become its member, i mean there is not logic behind such policies and its an evidence of biased ICAP policies in relation with ACCA.
regards
- accountingunlimited - 04-25-2008
Hello Dears
Its good that people are asking questions to themselves and I hope one day they will come up with answers. A very constructive approach, It is also worthy of going through posts carefully and observe that who is pointing towards a privileged class for a certain education showing his/her complexes.Some people can also find funny things in advanced nations knowingly that the professional education they have obtained is a left over of those advanced nations and beside that they themselves are in queue to gain foreign affiliations by claiming exemptions despite of fact they already have prestigious designation. Some may argue on religious grounds completely forgetting that Muslims specially Saudi Arabia are the biggest buyer of their consumer products, funding them indirectly by purchasing those from them. Islam talks about simplicity but may be it is not for those people or they may have claimed exemption for that as well.
Some people also find very clear and vivid situations very vague which are due to the fact that they don't want to go beyond their defected beliefs and stubbornness, which shows their mental retardedness.This is just like someone was pointed out to be on his knees begging other to leave him/her as it is getting difficult for him/her to fabricate more stupid stories in his version of very critical debate.
I favour constructive debate and not merely repeating the same things again and again, but unfortunately it seems like that some people who advocate knowledge based debate, their knowledge is limited to certain extent and that is the end. How wrong such people are!
It would be better if we leave the choice to the masses rather than handing over them our interpretation, saying rest of the things are wrong and now it is you choice. Let them analyze themselves. It is also encouraging that people are developing tendency to stay in their limits by trying to know them.
Good Luck
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
- kamranACA - 04-25-2008
Dears,
Again the cat which came out of the bag was the issue of exemptions from ICAP for ACCA. It's a childish grouse. If some one is better than ICAP's CAs, why he is so concerned for its exemptions. Is it not a joke. Exemptions is a bilateral issue and finds its logic in mutual benefits, understanding and ultimate objetives. ALthough the political issues could also be there.
Now regarding the comments of some other contributor who is appearing to have fallen in the depths of inferiority complex, I must place on record that the thing was being discussed about masses. Privilged class means those who made this country for theirselves and are still finding all the priviliges over the masses. No one has given his family back ground over this forum. It would be unjustified to give such statements and posts motivating such debates are totally destructive and are based on totally non-professioal and perplexed thinking. The writers still find theirselves most professional and compliant of all the ethics. This is never gonna affect the others.
No worldly man can deny that returns are not important for him. I don't know what makes some one "so privilged" to sit outside the country if returns are not his motive. I don't find a single man here who is studying for only personality and ethics building. These could be the by-produts. But the main issue has to remain of livelihood and returns on investment of anything. No one can mould the situation in his favor by denying this fact.
I don't know of which knowledge suh guys are talking about. They are sitting out of the economic setup and are making big claims. I know the guys who are in teaching field have meager know how of what the profession requires and offers. Their practical exposure is limited to desks, dices, boards, and markers. I know the biggest names in teaching can never make up a good professional aptitude. We can look up on examples and can come to know that none of the renowned professionals are engaged in teachings. Now I being in profession never gave head into tiny issues of teachers. I feel it strange from such poor teachers when they make claims about profession. What more I can say. Any one can understand if he make an analysis. If some one cannot at this moment, he would be able to analyse it after getting into profession practically.
I also know the guys (i dont specify any one) who couldnot make a place in profession due to whatever reasons always have this confusion and complex. This is again a long debate and one cannot understand it and its inference in this debate unless he himself is such a case or has spcifically seen such cases.
So such comments from (closed minded) teacher cannot be asumed as un-expected.
Facts will not be changed by the will of every one. These are changed through a process and this process does not appear to bring any results within next 50 years. I don't wish to estimate beyond this time limit. Is it required?
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- 4thelement - 04-26-2008
Well again its a matter of exemptions coz if one wants to work in public practice he has to be an ICAP member therefore we need exemptions otherwise ICAP do not have any special stigma attached to it.
regards
- Muhammad Amir - 04-26-2008
Dear 4th Element,
I have a conceptual difference with those ACCA-Affiliates who are very keen in having exemptions of ICAP after their ACCA-Affiliate Status and this is the point that motivates me to analyse both qualifications without prejudice, In my opinion CA Module 'E' and 'F' after ACCA is just like doing Inter after Advanced Level because the difference in both bodies is same as that between A-Level and Intermediate and i think i do not need to repeat things.
In my view a person can do worse with his future by applying for CA exemptions after his ACCA.
An alternative measure for ACCAs to start public practice is that they have to exert pressure on Local Management of ACCA that they should arrange Advanced Taxation paper in local Version(i.e. PKN Variant) and they should also impose a condition on those who want to start their career in public practice that they should complete their ACCA with Advanced Tax and Advanced Audit Papers from Optional Modules and then after these procedures Local Management should use their resources at government level to pressurize Pakistani Regulatory authorities to give ACCAs a chance to operate in Public Practice. I think this alternative will work well in further recognition of ACCA.
What do you say about this course of action.
Regards,
Muhammad Amir
- accountingunlimited - 04-26-2008
Hello
Regretfully to see another example of bankrupted mentality by a contributor by judging the earnings and the priority of money over professionalism and professional ethics. It is a established fact that good professionals earn good money automatically whereas those running after money earn only money. So the depth of inferiority complex can be easily measured. If it is not enough, the pointing towards people who are out of the country and earning handsome amounts due to their professionalism also ponder 'grapes are sour'. Nobody has to tell about his/her backgrounds, however it is sometimes reflected in the conversation of people due to their inferiority complex.
The analysis of the term teacher also reflects their knowledge and perhaps their own experience of teachers. If someone has chance to look into professional journals of good repute or have witnessed some good talk on economic issues, he/she will find those people contributing in such events are directly/indirectly affiliated to education. Even the institute of which they are member (if they really are), the papers are set by professionals with aptitude of teaching and not the practicing teachers (because it is a rule). I think it is enough to wipe dust from some parts of the mind?
Making assumptions by knowing some guys of same aptitude like of own that other person is just limited to one's assumed profession provides good chance of laughing.Keep it up.
Many thanks
Kind Regards
- kamranACA - 04-26-2008
Dear Amir,
In principle I agree to your proposition to ACCAs that they should make stringent efforts to srengthen their own structure as it is at the time being merely a company formed under section 42 of CO 84.
I also add that they should strive for improving their regulations (at the time being members are not properly regularized), regional specific curriculum, whereever required, if they wish to be in practice. Notwithstanding what is the level of their papers, they should revisit their evaluation and passing criteria, which is not as strict as it should be. I know so manys including you will not agree with my view but it is the point of difference to ensure the quality. It is always the point of difference every where.
Apart from these general issues which find their importance at student's basic development, the training regulations and arrangement of facilities, that make up the real professional development, should be the focal area of concern for ACCA in Pakistan. They should consider it and make some clear strategy. If I am not forbidden to say the truth, at the moment ACCA students have been thrown by ACCA on the disposal of CAs. It has nothing to do with any biases or other allegations on CAs generally imposed by ACCA students. You guys must locate your real problem area. Your association does not seem to be taking any big steps for the betterment of your future. If allegedly ICAP is not providing ACCAs expected exemptions or if their are training arrangment problems, these should be a concern for your association and it must do the needful to satisfy its affiliates / members / students.
In my view ACCA affiliates/ members/ students, should make proper recommendations to the Pakistan Chapter to take necessary steps. Further, I feel ACCA will take much time to get a place in the economy.
You have of course full right to disagree with whatever I mentioned above.
....[NOT FOR AMIR].....
In response to other dumb minded message,
I again wish to point out that the tiny thought does not get relieved from the issues of teaching, curriculum, paper setting etc etc. This was what I pointed out.
This could be an important area to the extent of our "compulsory studies" but when we talk in professional perspective, such experts do not appear to be in competition, at large. I don't debate on very rare cases which always exist in every field of life.
We are talking about typical cases and not for rare ones. If some one is not as per the general category it should be depicted from the character, which in this case I regrettfully say, seems to be missing.
I don't hope any dumb mind can understand it.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- accountingunlimited - 04-26-2008
Hi
Its nice to see people are accepting their dumb mindedness and giving explanations.Good job, keep it up.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards
- kamranACA - 04-28-2008
Dears,
I said dumb mind cannot understand it. I am pleased to see the same results.
Regards,
KAMRAN.