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CONGRATS - MUSHARRAF GOES - kamranACA - 08-18-2008


I congratulate the forum members on the resignation of Musharraf.

I, however, see very big challenges ahead for the political government the responsibility of which, now onwards, cannot be put on the shoulders of Musharraf.

Let's hope for something better.



- EnslavedSpirit - 08-18-2008

<font color="red"><b>Congratulations!</b></font id="red">
Now prosperity and success of nation has come on the shoulders of Nawaz and Zardari...OH! what and alternate !!!

One is the <b><font color="red">Chief of DACOITS </font id="red"> </b> and one is the<b> <font color="red">LEADER of Thieves</font id="red"></b>.
<b>GOOD Choice indeed!!!</b>

Musharraf was '<b>Bad</b>' for the country, BUT Zardari and Nawaz are even <b>WORST</b>!!!

Musharraf '<b>May</b>' have lead the country to DECLINE, YET these two will rather intensify the speed of Sinking!!!

Nation has really <b>improved to the superlative degree</b>...<font color="red">from '<b>BAD</b>' <b>to 'WOR</b>ST'</font id="red">...GREAT Nation...Great Leaders )

<font color="red"><b>Congratulations....YESSS!!!</b></font id="red">

- nakaiun - 08-18-2008

assalam o alaiqum
congratulation to all Pakistanis but this is not the end he should bought in the court and if im not wrong this is the best time to implemetation of article 6 that is capital punishment of the constitution inorder to get army out from the politics and also to implement law for all and supermessy of law

- nakaiun - 08-18-2008

and most importantly restore the pre2 nov judiciary

- kamranACA - 08-19-2008


I, in essence, agree to what Enslavedspirit has pointed out above.

This is really what we should feel our challenge as a nation. Lack of appropriate choice and lack of political and patriotic vision coupled with severe illiteracy ratio is the basic problem of our nation. We have baseless, vision-less, too-emotional intimacies and political attachments.

I have been conveying my humble views about the army and politicians of Pakistan on this forum and I believe most of them have same mentality and approach towards the country and nation.

Still, irrespective of whatever the politicians are, after all they are the choice of the nation. An army general has no right to intervene democracy for any pitfall on the personal character of politicians. This is the job of the public to monitor the performance of their elected people. In history, 33 years are covered under army rule. This period has been ruled by the persons having different mindsets e.g. extreme of modernism (it was not moderate-ism) like Musharraf, extreme of personal low character like Yahya, fair personality like Ayub and Mullah minded general Zia. Did we see any of them sincere with the nation? Did we see any of them not working for external forces? Did any of them succeed to correct the society? Answer to every question will come in negative. If they could not correct it during 33 years, they will never be able to or should be expected to correct it. If we feel otherwise, I cannot comment on such feelings.

The politicians on the other hand had always been represented by feudal lords, jaageerdaars, robbers, criminals, and the guys who had been imposed on the nation by army or by external forces. We produced only three national level politicians in last 61 years. This is amazing situation. We must know why we could not develop proper leadership in our country? There is the biggest hand of Army rulers in such deficiency. Further, the evergreen threat of losing the governments to army rulers has contributed a lot in making the politicians dishonest. We should not ignore this fact. I wonder if some one feels that Army has pulled its hand out of the politics in current scenario. Never!!! Mind it. Army is still very much into the governmental decisions. The example of withdrawal of notification regarding ISI is sufficient to correct our belief. One could also see how army gave guard of honor on the resignation of Musharraf and how army is supporting him by providing army house and desired security levels. The only reason for army not to maintain Musharraf's government is USA. Why USA wanted to change Musharraf is another story and we can discuss it some other time. Certainly it is also meant for further de-stabilization of Pakistan. [Here I indirectly conclude what Enslavedspirit has pointed out]. Prime Minister when talks about supremacy of Parliament I just wish to laugh or cry and it is difficult to decide what is the better expression.

I agree that politicians are corrupt to same extent, but I have strong reasons to believe that the credit of such corruption also goes to army. I have reasons to believe that effectively politicians have never ruled Pakistan and everything is done with the consent of army. Army is the most corrupt institution of Pakistan and has now become a monster for the nation.

I am sorry if any one is hurt by these words.



- EnslavedSpirit - 08-19-2008

<font color="red"><b>Agreed with Kamran</b></font id="red">

Perhaps we need to EDUCATE our NATION from every aspect,
we [as a nation] are very wise in dealing with our personal individual issues YET extremely ignorant in choosing the future of the country
becz we are TOO sensitive for our personal lives, YET TOO reckless for our collective interests.
becz getting careless for personal issues would consequently HURT our personal interests, we remain calm and quite until something tends to be a threat to our OWN LIVES [Individually] ………… soon as anything remains NO THREAT for us personally we damn care how dangerous it could be for our Country !!!
<font color="red"><b>Selfish we are!!!</b></font id="red">

Our individuals are running for getting maximum worldly benefits and perks, GOOD Jobs, promising careers, increasing bank accounts, lavish cars…
QUOTE “Listen price of property is reducing these days…just rush to buy a plot…otherwise in next few years you will not be able to buy it” UNQUOTE…said to the person who is already having bungalows, Cottages, Huts and Villas in posh areas of the city!!!
Hey! Go for the accountancy field….it has a great SCOPE!!!
Oh Doctors?? Good earning yaar…
Engineers??….don’t ask they make money in dollars.

Educated doesn’t mean to be a “Well mannered, Righteous and Noble person”, it means to be Well “Money Making Machine”.

That’s the motto of our individuals….Just EARN EARN & EARN so much that your successors should fill the stomach with currency notes.

Watan Kay liye kuch karnay Ki baat Qissa-e-Maazi hui
Main to Haiwan-e-Naatiq hoon buss apni Zaat Janoon

Haiwan-e-Naatiq (An Animal having ability of speech)

- kamranACA - 08-20-2008


- nakaiun - 08-21-2008

Musharraf was 'Bad' for the country, BUT Zardari and Nawaz are even WORST!!! i do not agree from this statement musharraf or any other gernal has no right to capture our country who give them this right ????? there is saying that worst democray is better then bad dictatorship if u go back in the history of pakistan bangladesh appear in the map of world under the period of dictatorship all wars wid india also in dictatorship period
if one go to doctor and he is not good enough to help u then this person go to any other doctor not to any other person (kasaai)who belongs to a field which is totally different there r options available frm my side i think imran khan may be a good leader if people give him a chance
and last but not least justice is very important supermessy of law
follow the constitution

- kamranACA - 08-21-2008


In fact no body is disagreeing with your thinking. To pin point the dishonest politicians does not establish any right of some scoundrel general like Ayub, Yahya, Zia or Musharraf to snatch the government. I, in my above posts, wanted to clarify this fact.

I also tried to clarify that the utmost dishonesty in politicians is also caused by the ever hanging sword of such generals. This is natural for the men who are inclined to make moneys from their fiduciary or other capacities (by whatever means) and what I guess the majority of Pakistanis has such inclinations. Exactly the same thing has been indirectly pointed out by Enslavedspirit in his second post.

As far as Imran Khan or else are concerned, this is dependent on two things. Firstly, the political understanding and approach of the public at large along with their intimacies that are not expected to be changed due to extreme of illiteracy. Secondly, how Imran Khan or else would be proven differently, if somehow they are given a chance.

However, keeping in view the prevailing conditions, there are very meager chances of any positive or educated outcome from the masses. Of course we are also part of it.

I recommend readers to study the book "SAFAID JAZEERA" (white island) written by Naseem Hijaazi. This book, along with the preface, portrays what we are and why we face such rulers.



- nakaiun - 08-21-2008

how corruption is minimized ? it can be done through independent and strong judiciary who does not support feudal and elite class for example judges like mr iftikhar required who took 26000 suo mo notices that why this movement is very important

- kamranACA - 08-22-2008


The honest part of judiciary (I mean honest judges) has always worked in the best interest of the nation. We have very respectable names in our memories.

However, the independence capacity of judiciary has somehow been bifurcated into two kinds. The independence for the issues among the public and the independence for the issues involving those who are aggregately termed as "Establishment".

I hope this all movement will considerably improve our judiciary system for the issues among public. I mean those issues where Establishment would not be involved.

However, I don't foresee any improvement in independence capacity and honesty of judicial set-up wherever the Establishment would be involved.

These words may be felt un-desired but unfortunately these are the facts. All the credit goes to Establishment of which the strongest part is of course the Pak Army and then comes the beaurocracy.

Our army always takes the lead.



- Schuaeb - 10-01-2008

Our army always takes the lead, the lines that concluded the last post.

Once again an interesting situation has emerged. The conflict between present govt. and army is becoming evident. US incursion in Pakistani borders, the political govt. implies to be in agreement. However, security forces seem to have difference design this time. Force has been used for the first time to prevent US fighters to enter Pakistan.

Zardari goes to America, Kayyani to China. The divide is clear. Question is where this divide will lead to. Based on past experience it can be inferred that govt. will try to take control over army, however, chances of success; bleak as ever. I foresee the situation if the conditions remains the same (American election may be the determining factor), army will once again overthrow the govt. (not easy to assume in current state). I reckon if it happens instead of imposing a dictator yet again the army will go for election. Presumably ML-N will emerge as winners.

Pakistani messes are so fed up of army, we all know, they want democracy to survive and prove to be the panacea for the country. Additionally, in or at the end of Musharraf's regime no wanted that army should take control or intervene in political affairs at all ever. Just some months have passed, a new situation has emerged. Once again all eyes are on Gen Kayyani to sack up the govt. it continues its pro American designs. Even those who were totally against any sort of intervention of army in the political affairs seem to say its fine if the army opts for fair elections at that time.

Who is to be blamed for intervention of army in political affairs of the country; the army, the politicians, the masses or the situation.



- kamranACA - 10-04-2008


I am of the view that so far government has no dispute with Kayani.

Visits may have some other reasons or may be the result of some combined strategy.

Let's see what happens in coming days.



- Schuaeb - 10-05-2008

I think a bit differently. All this is based on assumptions so it will be pre mature to conclusively determine something. Time will clarify every thing so need less to establish anything by means of argument. Or even if they divide I feared in my last post exists, may be its not severe enough to lead to such consequences as mentioned. One thing for sure if things proceed like that Pakistani masses will themselves look for intervention of army.

I personally wish to see total harmony among the army and govt only if both are acting in the interest of Pakistan. One thing should be mentioned here. Most armies even of developed countries do not take directions from political govt. This has always been the case in Pakistan, no issue until it is in favor of the country.

- kamranACA - 10-09-2008


I agree with the above conclusion of not having a conclusion.

Yes, armies do have some autonomy but in well groomed and established democartic set-up this is felt to be extremely un-desirable. We have seen examples where a defence minister like George Fernendence calls the army chief in his office for showing cause on certain alleged mischief and where such army chief did not felt it his personal disgrace and did attend the proceedings against him and had to file the required clarifications.

This is what should be desirable and praisable. Not like what we see in our country where on ISI's pressure govt's issued circulars are withdrawn overnight and people hide their faces from accepting responsibility.