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ICAP humiliating itself - Printable Version

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- kamranACA - 01-21-2009

Dear Khalid,

I no where replied your stupid comparisons of my earlier posts based upon idiotic impressions you have developed. However, some issues which need to be elaborated for other forum members, are replied. I understand you cannot figure out the difference.

It's indicative of so much, however, when you expressed your feelings about some thing weird done by ICAP members with ACCA for a decade. You have such feelings and still you believe ACCA is going to engulf the whole world in just couple of years. Did you forget the decade? Is the God of universe going to be changed now (Naoozbillah)? This, I have written, because this decade issue is raised by you. I don’t believe on this statement in fact. You said


"My friend ICAP members have been doing this for almost a decade as far as ACCA is concerned"


In Pakistan ICEAW members cannot get into practice. If some one can't understand this fact what can others do? The partners you referred are in practice only because they are ICAP members. Having more than one membership/designation/qualification, I know, is a taboo for you. Some one did ICEAW's CA and then became ICAP's member, can you figure out the prestige, by applying your own criteria? No, you cannot, I know, because you are an ACCA. In my view these are not the matters of prestige or, as you say, humiliation at all. These are way outs to find the solutions. The MRAs are like that as well.

No body can help you buddy. If you feel you are leader, come to Pakistan and check your worth. What goes wrong with it? It would however be a favor if you let this forum know your experience at Pakistan.

You mentioned that the references given by you were only for ACCA firms and not for top 50 firms.


As far as top 50 firms in UK are concerned, Kamran asked me to provide links of only those firms which are only run by ACCA. ACCA members are partners in top 50 firms in UK, this could be checked.


However, while discussing what Pracs told you about ICAP members working with big firms internationally, you forgot that it has an importance as well. For this you need to know the firms established by ICAP members. Mashallah. I guessed you have short term memory loss problem. Notwithstanding this, I agree you just referred names of ACCA firms without keeping in view top 50 list, can you now provide the name of any firm within such a ranking? Rabia, has also shown concern over it. Do something for her at least. Will you? Please.

The post of Toronto_Boy would be based upon facts as he is located at Canada and knows Canada better than any one else on this thread. However, no ACCA can run any firm at Canada as well and no ACCA can call his self as chartered accountant at Canada as well. For doing so they have to become the CGA under MRA referred on this thread. I know you cannot identify this important difference. I also know you will again start rubbing the MRAs and MOUs to support your illusions ignoring the fact that what such MRA will do for the ones who are not in even top 50 within their homeland using their own name. If you will do something under MRA, you will be doing as CGA not ACCA. Mind it. Earlier, people felt that they will be flying to UK after doing ACCA because they can't get the anticipated returns locally. Now would you like to give an impression that this may not be possible by switching over to UK market as well and one should go to Canada for getting the benefit of MRA, specially when you are not within top 50 at UK.

As far as size of the firms mentioned by me and their services to small entities etc are concerned, these all may be the right points. However, if you wander around the whole UK markets and find out all so-called ACCA firms, you will find majority of such ACCA cases even at the homeland of ACCA. One of your referred firms even mentions it on its website that they are good at dealing with small entities. Now what is meant by small entities, you must have its definition? Do you feel big shot beauty saloons are not within that definition? However, when this matter of beauty saloons was raised, I no where said that it's any disgrace. Rather, I explained that there could be some beauty saloons which could be taken seriously in financial terms. This is your own insecurity which speaks. No ICAP member scared you by saying this. However, it's a valid point that some one who claims to be internationally recognized should at least have its representation in top 10 any where on the globe or at least at the homeland. Do you have such representation even in top 50s. I will wait for the answer.

Rabia is a student, at very early stage, and I know she has been influenced by the ideas of "being globally recognized", "engulfing the whole world", "taken up the market", etc etc spread out by people like you. That's why I keep on replying her to show her other side of picture. This should not cause inconvenience to you buddy.

Ethics! I no where asked you to be ethical. I know you can’t be. If I have committed this fault by asking, do forgive me please.


You are shocked for which I express my grief. You still feel you are globally recognized. It's good. You understand CA and ACCA earn equally good at UAE, still, you feel ACCA is going to engulf the gulf at least; its again good, at least for you. You cannot understand why other qualifications come to a given market if the resident one has all what is required. If we follow your formula then CGA, CPA and CA at Canada should also be considered at stake. Yes, this is the biggest impression, rather false impression some stupid ACCAs carry.


I have all the regards for you and your achievements and nothing is to be taken as a reference for people like you who are quite professional and mature. However, I am contended to know that you have seen your ACCAs. This thread is quite reflective. I would love to see you whenever you would be on Pakistan’s visit. In the words of my respected brother Goodman (Mr. Zubair), it will be nice to enjoy a QULFI together.



- ali_boy9 - 01-21-2009

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pracs</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ali_boy9</i>
<br />well pracs i got my keys adjusted.. )
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks buddy, you made my day,..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh Pracs i had no idea my CAPS key meant that much to you p
anyways you are always welcome.

- mroneflower - 01-22-2009

Dear Toronto_Boy

Thanks for explaining ACCA MRA with CGA Canada.

I have received following email from CAP(PAK) that states

<b>Dear Mr.Khalid, Yes, we have taken the matter before FBR Minsitry of Fianance and Commerce, AGPR and the same is in process. Yes, apart from other international institutions, we have also communicated to ACCA for grant of maximum exemptions to CPA qualified members. Their replies is still awaited. Thank you, Tahir IqbalSecretary</b>

Please remember I emailed ICAP almost three times and they never replied. I emailed CPA(PAK) and they replied.

My this post is not conflicting with Toronto_Boy, I fully agree with him as far as CPA(PAK) is concerned.

I agree with Toronto_Boy that this process will take time. But what I am saying if this institute is real and incorparted by pakistani law, then in future they will allowed audit of plc in Pakistan.

Once again I am not saying that students should go for CPA(PAK) as I personally do not have any information about this institute.


- Toronto_Boy - 01-22-2009

Dear rabia-k

You asked, “i have heard that ACCA's can also work in BIG 4's in USA. do we have to sit for any CPA exams??? any1 any 1 having any idea about this ???.”

Well, you have to understand first the difference between working in Big 4 as Staff Accountant or Audit Manager and signing off audit report, and preference given by employers in Big4, public accounting and industry. Just working as Staff Accountant/ Audit Manager and signing audit reports are two different things. In USA and Canada both, any one can work in Big4 as a part of audit team in capacity of Staff Accountant/ Audit Manager as a regular employee of the firm for rest of the life, but can’t sign audited financials/ report unless he/she is a member of AICPA/ CICA/ CGA in respective jurisdictions. Any of graduate of accounting and other business degrees and other non-recognized members of other foreign accounting associations including CAs (of ICAP) and ACCAs can get the job in these capacities in Big4 or other public accounting firms as well as in industry. But, usually due to stern competition, un-awareness and non-recognition of foreign qualifications by employers and various other reasons, in both public accounting and industry, employers usually do not prefer less qualified, non-recognized, non-designated by local associations employees, first to hire and then to consider later for internal promotions. Therefore, to avoid these obstacles, employees consider achieving local designations through MRAs, exemptions, and even by starting over again from scratch in case of Pakistani designations.

Specifically speaking, ACCA can work in Big4 in USA, as I have explained in above para, but cannot sign audited financials/ report. Moreover, as far as I know, at-least State Board of Accounting of Colorado accepts ACCA for satisfaction of educational requirements for exams/ license both. There are some other requirements also. Please visit their website for other details. Further, a candidate for CPA exams would have to go to USA. Also, please search this forum for “CPA”.

Last words for all. Neither my car is better than your car kind of discussion is taking readers specially students anywhere, nor repetition of same ideas in different words is serving any purpose. All qualifications are good and have their pros and cons. Life and circumstances are dynamic, and it is upto the individual how he uses his qualification in ever changing situations. There is no perfect solution available for all situations.


- mroneflower - 01-22-2009

Skans link which I provided is not available now and ACCA told me new link with correct information will be available by 31 Jan 2009.


- mroneflower - 01-22-2009

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by SAIFEE</i>
<br />Assalamo aliqum!
Dear mroneflower please read the posts properly. I say that you have passed only functional english and then run away to ACCA.
Secondly you people say that ACCA is growing and recognise in many countries precious stones are less in numbers while the hills are full of useless clifs.
I am giving you traditional examples i think you will be back to the fact.
Thirdly you say that i mail you three time if you hear this idiom of URDU you dont say me that you mail me three time....
I dont want to say you gadha but you.............
Mroneflower you say that i am just start CA and rabia is better than me if you think she is better than me i dont know what is behind of your sayiny or i think you want to get sympathay of........\
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Anyone is understanding what SAIFEE is saying. He really needs to pass functional English paper.

Saifee do not talk like this, if you continue to behave like this then you will be in problem.

People can see when ICAP people run out of words they start abusing others.


- rabia-k - 01-22-2009

dear mr toronto boy

thanks very much for the information.

dear mr khalid gr8 to hear about SKANS, i have almost bombarded them with emails evry day about the incorrect information.

dear all can anyone explain what a "globally recognised" qualification is ??? after reading some posts , which say that ACCA's are not represented in top 50 firms in uk,the homeland of ACCA i am in doubts over its global recognition.

- mroneflower - 01-22-2009

what kind of doubt you have Rabia.

Top firms in UK are working under the banner of ICAEW or ICAS. If you check PWC web site it say Authorised to carry on audit work and investment business by ICAEW, They even do not mention ICAS, same is the case with E&Y but E&Y does not train its students for ICAEW examination its train its students for ICAS and ACCA, so is it mean ICAS is also not good.

ACCAs are partners in TOP firms in UK. I do not know why are you in doubt. Just go to UK top 50 firms web site and check its partners qualifications.

I already expalined to be partner in UK based firm one does not need to be Qualified Accountant.


- mroneflower - 01-22-2009

I am going to report this post pf Saifee to ICAP. I hope ICAP will be brave enough to take action against him.

I have already said ICAP people are expert in abusing, if someone wants to learn how to use abusive language then join ICAP. Saifee this post clearly shows ICAP people caliber


- ali_boy9 - 01-22-2009

well... i guess couple of above posts should be eliminated from the thread... MODERATOR??

anyways.. be calm..

- Toronto_Boy - 01-22-2009

Dear rabia-k

The closest meaning to “globally recognized qualification” could be qualification that is generally acceptable in 80 countries for accounting jobs in public accounting and industry. Whether it is preferable over local designations in all those countries or not is a different story. However, as long as I know, at-least ACCA is more preferable to employers in all those countries but Pakistan (at-least at present) as compared to ICAP or ICMAP. It makes transition easier in each of respective country. It may provide a reasonably good job in Pakistan currently and probably more certainly in other countries.

With my limited knowledge, I don’t know any real global designation in absolute terms. Each of AICPA, ICAEW, CMA(IMA), CIMA, ACCA, CICA, CGA, CMA Canada, ICAA, ICAS, ICAP, and ICMAP has, more or less, limitations in relative terms and pros and cons. The closest truly speaking global designation that I know might be CFA, though it relates to Finance and Investments, not specifically accounting.

To read more about global designations, I would suggest to read the following thread.



- mroneflower - 01-22-2009

Dear Toronto_Boy and rabia

Rabia Toronto_Boy gave definition of "globally recognized qualification”. As far as ACCA is concerned it is allowed to carry out audit work of PLCs in 80 countries of the world. As far as canda is concerned members of ACCA, ICAEW, ICAS and so on cannot call them self accountant unless they become member of CICA or CGA Canda. In USA no accountancy qualification is recognised, only ICAI(Irealnd) has MRA with CPA(USA) but still ACA from ICAI(Ireland) have to pass conversion exams in USA to become qualified accountant in USA. ICAEW, ICAS, ACCA and other qualification are not recognised in USA. ACCA had MRA with CAP(Taxes) but ACCA canceled in in 1999(i am not sure about yr).

In any case ICAP is not recognised anywhere outside pakistan. I know you are talking about GAA. GAA does not provide any benefits to its members. CPA(USA) is member of GAA but does not recognises any other institute which are member of GAA apart from ICAI(Ireland) so what thepoint of forming GAA. GAA was formed by ICAEW after it failed to merge with CIPFA and CIMA.

That is why I have been saying in Europe Accountancy bodies are working towards forming a single qualification or make accountancy qualification like Actuary. Remember Actuary from one country is competely recignised in an other.

Its right CFA is only qualification which is accepted every where in the world. The reason for this is CFA does not have any direct competitor at present.

Rabia what is your understanding of global qualification. Can you please explain


- Toronto_Boy - 01-22-2009

Dear mroneflower

It is not definition, but simply my understanding of globally recognized qualification. Moreover, as far as I know, AICPA has reciprocity (a kind of MRA) with following associations;

Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants (CICA)
Instituto Mexicano De Contadores Publicos (IMCP)
Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland (ICAI)
Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia (ICAA)
CPA Australia

Please see at the bottom of following link;


Also, http//

Similarly, I am writing again that, in USA and Canada both, any one can carry out audit work with any related education in any public accounting firm, big or small no matter. But cannot sign off audit report. At the same time, due to competition, it becomes hard to get job/promotion, if someone does not have local designation. I am not saying that ACCAs or CAs (of ICAP) and of other un-recognized bodies can not call themselves "accountants" in Canada. Yes, they can call themselves accountants and provide services to public as "accountant", but cannot call themselves "CA", simply because it is the brand of CICA. Similarly, a CGA cannot call themselves "CA" and CA of CICA cannot call themselves CGA. These are different brands here.

Further, employers in both USA/ Canada give more value to work experience of the employee rather than designation.


- mroneflower - 01-22-2009

Dear Toronto_Boy

Thanks for your post. I thought only ICAI(Irealnd) and CPA(Aus) has MRA with CPA(USA). its new thing for me that ICAA(Aus) has also MRA with CPA(AUS).

I am not mentioning Instituto Mexicano De Contadores Publicos (IMCP) as it is not relevant in pakistani context.

I said no one call himself qualified accountant unless person is member of CGA or CICA. My understanding is that in canda word "Qualified Accountant" is protected by law (correct me if I am wrong). Members of both CGA Canada and CICA are known as "Qualified Accountant". When i say carrying audit work I mean singing audit report of plc.

- Toronto_Boy - 01-22-2009

Dear mroneflower

Honestly speaking, I don't wanna claim that I know the exact legal definition of term "qualified accountant" with reference to Canada and USA, though generally speaking I think foreign qualified accountant and other graduates can say themselves as qualified accountant here. This is just my understanding that could be wrong strictly legally speaking.

The words "Chartered Accountant", "CA", "CGA", and "CMA Canada" are legally protected though. So, no other CA from foreign countries can write CA with his name, unless he is member of CICA, not even CA of ICAEW. All three Canadian designations are patented brands. It is misrepresentation if some uses CA with his name without having memberships with CICA.

Rules are further restrictive in Canada and USA both, specially more in USA. I think a Canadian CA cannot sign off audited financials in any other province if he is not the member of that provincial CA body, though they can get membership of other province's CA body easily. For sure, I know that member of one State Board of Accounting in USA cannot represent himself as CPA in another State where he is not the member of. So, to perform restricted services in another State, the member of one State must have to get membership and satisfy all other requirements of other State too. All State Board of Accountings are independent of each other, and requirements of all are similar but actually different.