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+--- Thread: ICAP humiliating itself (/showthread.php?tid=5249)
- kamranACA - 01-30-2009
Dear Shoaib,
If we compare the local deterioration with UAE, I guess Pakistan is lesser affected. IMF's reaction on our economy's performance until December 2008 also remained satisfactory though it is not related with the subject matter we are discussing.
I feel job market in Pakistan has not gone that worst which we can see at UAE. There are no substantial instances of firing out of staff members by local companies due to the crises except in textile sector where certain workers have been laid off due mainly due to power/gas crises. The financial crises has mainly hit the capital markets and we can see little bit of down sizing by a few stock brokers. However, overall job conditions, specially for qualified accounting professionals have not been that ruined.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- kamranACA - 01-30-2009
Dears,
Today I got a chance to discuss the matter of MOU of ICAEW with one of the senior officials of ICAP. He explained that there is some difference in the membership rights that have been allowed to ICAI people with the membership rights permissible to ICAP members, provided they complete respective formalities. ICAP people will be given full rights including the right to get into public practice for audit at UK and EU etc while such rights would be restricted for ICAI members. Therefore, he said the scenario of both institutes is different. ICAI did not ask for such rights while ICAP considered it necessary that our members having ICAEW's qualification should be given full rights. He said, ICAEW has asked to view both cases differently due mainly to the variation in membership rights which is a big difference in fact.
However, he informed that they are in discussion with ICAEW which may result in getting both options for ICAP members i.e. the option which is currently available (3papers+2years training and full membership rights) and the one which has been given to ICAI members i.e. one case study paper and two years of post qualification experience of any where with restrcited membership rights. If this would happen then it would be at discretion of ICAP members which route they will select.
I place on record that this is as per the discussion with that official. I have not so far checked it with ICAEW.
May Khalid or Pracs be in a position to comment on it.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- Schuaeb - 01-31-2009
Dear Kamran,
Thanks for the information. Economic crisis in Pakistan is due to a bit different reasons from the financial crisis world over. Developed economies are more going to be get affected from this global crisis as compared to the developing (or going otherwise) economies like ours. The law and order situation primarily, coupled by the political and electricity crisis is paving the way for this recession to convert into depression. And I fear the situation is going to be worse for one or two years to come.
If we compare our economy with others, layoffs and firing the staff at least now has not become the phenomena here. But new opportunities have shrunk to a great extent. You must be in a better position to compare the opportunities available to professionals accounts or others now a days than those available a couple of years earlier. How do you see the opportunities available to partly qualified accountants?
- Schuaeb - 01-31-2009
Handy info as regards MOU with ICAEW. Your source of information is credible and no one seems to provide anything contradicting information. Provided if the information is correct, what is the worth of the time and efforts wasted by some people on comparison of the MOUs with ICAEW (ICAP and ICAI). And on the basis of this flawed and incomplete information huge conclusion have been claimed to be drawn. Even if this was not the case, I don't reckon comparing ICAP and ICAI on the basis of this memorandum justified. India is much a bigger market and is in a very better position to have favourable bargains on such matters. ICAI being an Indian institute do have got that advantage as well whereas situation is totally different for us. Conclusions about the supremacy of ICAI over ICAP should never be drawn on international recognition as that is primarily dependent upon other issues than the quality of professionals produced by an institute. To the extent of the information available ICAP is a tougher degree than ICAI to qualify and has got more worth and reputation in the local market.
- mroneflower - 01-31-2009
Dear Kamran
Information provided to you by ICAP senior officer and member is totally wrong and misleading. I am having some trouble with my system, as soon as i fix it, I will expalin you situation.
Dear Schuaeb
You mentioned as ICAP is more hard and tough therefore it has more reputation and worth. I am surprised that it is your criteia of judging qualification. Qualification which is upto date and which of high standard should have repuatation and worth. hrader and tougher can never be criteria.
Khalid
- mroneflower - 01-31-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pracs</i>
<br />Rabia your analysis is correct re ICAEW, although firms like E&Y train ICAS and ACCA (have discontinued ICAEW) They are regulated by ICAEW and therefore follow its rules and regulations. My understanding is ICAI and ICAS members have no problem in registering with ICAEW (if the need is, although not sure completely how that works)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Pracs
You mentioned firms train ACCA and ICAS students, but are regulated by ICAEW. You further mentioned you are not sure how system works. If you wish I can let you and others knows how system works, but again after reading my post, people especially ICAP seniors will take wrong meaning and misguide people even its own members. Therefore I am purposely not answering it.
Khalid
- Pracs - 01-31-2009
We await your post Khaild
- mroneflower - 01-31-2009
Kamran
Thanks God. I fixed my system
Senior ICAP member gave you wrong information. As I have already mentioned that one does not need to be member of any accountancy body recognised by EU Directive to become auditors in UK. Department of Trade can issue audit certificate to anyone who is consider fit for audit.
When someone becomes ACCA, ICAEW, ICAS, ICAI the person is not given audit certificate immediately. To get audit certificate in UK one needs to have total of 5 yrs experience while working under the supervision of qualified auditor and 2 yrs of these 5 yrs of must be post membership experience. After having 5 yrs audit experience, audit certificate is not issued. Person has to pass audit test conducted by his professional body. In short if ACCA or ICAEW member wants to get audit certificate then, he needs to have total o five yrs experience under supervision of qualified auditor and 2 yrs of experience of these 5 yrs must be obtained after becoming full member of ACCA or ICAEW. After having 5 yrs of total experience person need to pass audit test of ICAEW if person is ICAEW member or ACCA audit test if person is ACCA member.
Please note that according to my knowledge ICAEW audit test is not available outside UK(correct me if I am wrong), therefore there is no way that ICAP and ICAI(India) will get UK audit certificate by sitting in Pakistan and India, they have to fly to UK.Therefore ICAP and ICAI(India) members who will become ICAEW member will further need two yrs of audit experience after becoming ICAEW full member. If ICAP and ICAI(India) do not have 3 yrs of audit experience( because they did their training in tax, accounts etc) at the time they become ICAEW member, then they will need total of 5 yrs audit experience to be eligible to take audit test.
Further more, argument by ICAP senior member about ICAEW MOU with ICAI(India) is wrong as ICAEW does not make such distinction. If we suppose ICAEW is making such distinction it means ICAEW is making two classes/types of membership which is itself not good for ICAEW Actually such distinction is not in the hands of ICAEW.
Its is my unbiased post and once again information provided my ICAP senior member is totally wrong. I do not know y people in Pakistan understand that in Pakistan we have class system everywhere and ICAP and its members are also part of Pakistan. That is why I say ICAP is trying to continue policy of class system, for example distinction made by ICAP that ACCA UK qualified and ACCA Pakistan qualified. I am by no means blaming ICAP, it is part of our society. We all need to change it. I hope people are getting my point.
I also suspect that ICAEW brand in Pakistan will be diluted in coming yrs as ICAEW is going to conduct its examinations in Pakistan therefore in future there will be ICAEW UK qualified and ICAEW Pakistan qualified. Please do try to understand what is going wrong in our society.
ICAP senior member should not try to hide facts and should accept MOU which ICAP singed with ICAEW is not based on equality and ICAP needs to negotiate with ICAEW for better deal. However I seriously think ICAP will not get what ICAI(India) got because of number game. ICAI(India) has 145,000 members whereas ICAP has only about 4,300 members. Remember ICAEW did not sign MOU with ICAP and ICAI(india) so that Pakistani and Indian get good qualification. Main purpose of ICAEW these MOUs to increase its membership as ICAEW loosing number game to ACCA. If ICAEW will not catch up with ACCA in number game then ICAEW will be in BIG BIG problem in 10 yrs time. So Try to understand what is going on.
Further analyses ICAP senior member and officer claim. Now Kamran is ICAP member, suppose he goes through all headache and become ICAEW member and get audit certificate issued by ICAEW. He will still not be able to sign audit report in UK (even though he holds audit certificate issued by ICAEW). To sign audit report in UK, he will either needs UK work Permit, British national or national of any state that is member of European Union.
Suppose he gets UK work permit, in such situation he will only be able to sign audit report in UK and not outside UK. ICAEW audit certificate holders sign audit report within EU cause such rights are given to them by EU 8th Directive. EU 8th Directive says to use its powers person needs to have national o any of state which is member of EU.
All ICAEW members are equal like ACCA all members are equal. I do not know why ICAP is making such distinction and this is the reason I say ICAEW brand will be diluted in Pakistan over next few yrs. ACCA nor ICAEW can make any distinction amonst their members otherwise people will go to court and institute has to face embracement in court.
I do not know why ICAP senior officers misguiding even ICAP members.
Khalid
- mroneflower - 01-31-2009
Dear Pracs
Do you still think(after reading my above post) I should expalin how system in big firms. I suspect if I eaxplin thi sthen again ICAP will try to find lame excuses.
Khalid
- mroneflower - 01-31-2009
Dear Kamran
I have alraedy answered you question about ACCA and big firms. I do not want to repeat thinks againa nd again. I hope you will understand. And I serious thinks that young qualiied members o ICAP should take it in right direction as there is no point in hiding facts.
Khalid
- kamranACA - 01-31-2009
Dear Khalid,
I wonder how to comment on your skills to prioritise and analyze the issues. Please don't take it offencive but I could not help laughing on seeing your above effort.
Certainly every one needs visa, work permits etc and has to comply the basic requirements of a country for exactly suiting in a given environment. What a great point you made buddy. This in fact has nothing to do with what I posted as a result of my discussion with some official of ICAP. Now, it has come up with all the required clarity that what makes you to blame ICAP and Pakistan. In fact you are unable to understand the basics and you mix up irrelavant things to make a point against other institutes and specially against Pakistan.
Full membership rights including permission to practice audit no where mentions that one will be absolved of complying all the associated or other legal and statutory requirements of a given location. Did I say it in my previous post? Did I say, the ICAP official has said something like that? Full membership rights meant, to my understanding, that one would be permitted to get into audit practice under "ICAEW's licensing/certificate/regulation" subject to other requirements like, work permit, visa, citizenship etc which are always there irrespective of whatever country we may talk about.
This is an initial response to your cute analysis given in second last post, however, I will sort out some time to compare both MOUs in detail and would come back with detailed findings.
Varaiation of rights and different membership classes of same institutes can be seen in so many other cases and this is not something out of this world or something specific to Pakistan. If you fail to find out examples, let me know, I will hopefully inform you some examples. However, in Pakistan such restricted membership rights are also available for ICAEW members. They can become ICAP's member without going for any test or training but they can't get into public practice of audit. For doing so they have to qualify the required exam. You should try to understand it.
There is also a need to mention that we should not debate on comparison of countries since this discussion does not revolve against such issue. If we will go on to compare nations, countries, people and so on, there would be a mess around. You know everything exists every where.
I will come back after studying the MOUs at my own in detail.
In response to your other post, I must say that no reply has so far come specific to the question. The other things have been elaborated, to which I agree, and those things are common for so many other qualifications and do not specifically depict any superiority or merit of ACCA over others at all. I wish we should not repeat same things and accept what is real.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- mroneflower - 01-31-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Dears,
Today I got a chance to discuss the matter of MOU of ICAEW with one of the senior officials of ICAP. He explained that there is some difference in the membership rights that have been allowed to ICAI people with the membership rights permissible to ICAP members, provided they complete respective formalities. ICAP people will be given full rights including the right to get into public practice for audit at UK and EU etc while such rights would be restricted for ICAI members. Therefore, he said the scenario of both institutes is different. ICAI did not ask for such rights while ICAP considered it necessary that our members having ICAEW's qualification should be given full rights. He said, ICAEW has asked to view both cases differently due mainly to the variation in membership rights which is a big difference in fact.
However, he informed that they are in discussion with ICAEW which may result in getting both options for ICAP members i.e. the option which is currently available (3papers+2years training and full membership rights) and the one which has been given to ICAI members i.e. one case study paper and two years of post qualification experience of any where with restrcited membership rights. If this would happen then it would be at discretion of ICAP members which route they will select.
I place on record that this is as per the discussion with that official. I have not so far checked it with ICAEW.
May Khalid or Pracs be in a position to comment on it.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
All you are saying in your above post that ICAi(India) member who will become ICAEW member through MOU between ICAI and ICAEW will not get ICAEW audit certificate and ICAP members who will become ICAEW member will get ICAEW audit certificate and will be able to audit in UK and EU. Remember its not ICAEW which allows EU national to audit in EU on the basis of ICAEW certiciate its EU 8th Directive which allows EU national(who are auditors in UK) to audit in EU.
ICAP senior oficer who told you ICAI(India) member who will become ICAEW member will never not get ICAEW audit certificate is wrong and misleading.
If you want to become auditor in UK then you can get audit certiiacte from Britsih govet on the basais of ICAP membership if you satisfy britsih Government. And i you are EU national then this certifiacte is more than enough to audit anywhere in EU.
ICAI(India) and ICAP members who will become ICAEW using MOUs will have to go throught same stages if they want ICAEW Audit certificate. The main difference is that ICAI(India) members can become ICAEW member by passing one paper of ICAEW whereas ICAP members has to undergo 2 yrs ICAEW training plus need to pass ICAEW 4 papers.
Anyway I will wait for ICAP another lie.
Khalid
- mroneflower - 01-31-2009
kamran
Keep on fooling yourself and justifying degarding MOU which ICAP signed with ICAEW. Howver it clear from you post that ICAP lie even to its members. GREAT
Khalid
- kamranACA - 01-31-2009
Dear Khalid,
It depicts you cannot understand what I said. It's always likely from you.
If some ICAP member or member of any other institute gets audit certificate by doing what is legally needed, he will have to be regulated by some institute for this purpose. If it is wrong then why the ACCA firm referred by you specifically mentioned they are regulated by ACCA? Why there is a concept of being regulated by ICAEW or ACCA or ICAS or ICAI etc.
I wonder if such professions are least regulated and every thing has been left open for the ones who get that legal audit certificate. Can you define the role of such institutes and advantage of having membership of any such institute in the absence of any such licensing / authorization / regulation which can by any mean give their members a continuous professional status and identification.
If this is true, then professional institutes should abandon the concept of memberships and start awarding merely the degrees. You are feeling this because you are an ACCA which is a certification in fact (this could be biased view in response to your CREDIBALE language). What a man you are? What should I say? Still you allege the others.
However, if some how its true, then I must feel pitty for the profession in UK.
I believe the institutes have specific membership rights that's why these are called memberships. There could be more than one class of memberships, having restricted or full rights etc and there is always a role of such institutes in regulating their members.
I said I will come up with details of MOU. I wonder why you are feared of it and why you call it a lie. Can you confirm what I said from ICAEW directly? If you can't I will do it and post here what they will say.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- mroneflower - 01-31-2009
Dear Kamran
I never said you lie, I said ICAP lie even to its own member like what is said to you by ICAP senior officer.
Yes it true Department of trade can issue audit certificate to anyone considered fit for Audit, but still in this case person have to pass ACCA, ICAEW or ICAS audit test and the institute which will take person test regulate person even person will not be institute member. Relevant institute only takes person audit test as instructed by Department of trade.
Suppsoe Departmemt of Trade member of ACA(aus) for audit test, and given audit certificate. in this case if ICAA will take any action against its member then certificate will ne withdrawn.
There are clear rule, if you want further inforamtion plz consult lawyer or conatct Englsih relevant department.
I also said in my first post where I disclosed this inforamtion that it normally does not happen, but still its possible.
Yes you should closely review MOU which ICAEW signed with ICAP.
what are the requirement for getting ICAP audit certificate.
Khalid