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+--- Thread: ICAP humiliating itself (/showthread.php?tid=5249)
- kamranACA - 01-04-2009
Dear,
Yes you don't know what you want to prove. I can understand. Most of the confused people don't know what they want to prove.
I wonder why you wanted to listen the fact which was known to you. Is it due to the short term memory loss which I felt you are sick of? I gave a sincere advice to maintain a diary and keep writing everything. This will help memorising the things.
I wonder if ACCA, as a body, is so poor that to prove its worth it officially announces on its website how many of its members are working on what positions. It would have been more graceful for you to advise the others to see ACCA members' directory. Personally I have no major doubts because I know ACCAs are working at good positions in UK and I could also believe on your statement. I don't know why ACCA had to announce it on its website. However, in professional practices they are not good at their own. They don't run any mentionable professional firm. Do they? I actually asked you what starting pay ACCAs normally draw these days at UK and again you ignored this aspect. How can I offer you a corresponding thanks buddy?
Almost 1/4th of ICAP members are working abroad and majority of them are working on the basis of CA only. One of such persons is a very close friend of mine. I also know a few of others who are my personal contacts.
You again could not understand my post (as was expected), about earnings. It did not mean I was comparing Pakistani CAs with ACCAs at large. I was just giving an example that everything is possible in profession.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- kamranACA - 01-04-2009
Khalid,
By the way can you plz tell why did you left Pakistan? I mean you may tell if you have no resErvation with this question.
Otherwise just ignore it
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- mroneflower - 01-05-2009
Starting salary to ACCA without any experience range from £18,000 to £25,000 depending on size of company or firm.
You said 1/4 of ICAP members are working abroad, it means according to you 1/4x4,242= 1,060 ICAP members are working abroad. This is wrong as only about 200 ICAP members are working abroad and amongst these 200 about 150 are in middle East, So only 50 ICAP memberrs are working in some other places.
Why ACCA is advertising its members sucess on it web site, because ACCA is operating internationally. This process in know as marketing and any organisation which operates globally dose it, ICAEW also does it. AS ICAP is local institute and does not know value of marketing that is why ICAP is not doing it, secondly it also proves that ICAP is operating in monoploy.ICAP is not doing it because ICAP members are not working in Muti-National at top level. ICAP can only advertise such things if ICAP has something to advertise, SIMPLE.
I left Pakistan for studies and planning to move back to Paksitan next yr.
Khalid
- dreamsunlimited - 01-05-2009
Mr. Khalid,.... All ur posts just portray how confused u r and how desperate u r in trying to defend ur ACCA.....Keep it up mate...
Rather than replying to the points mentioned in my post, u kept on giving the same baseless statements. Dude! rest assured u r not the only one been to UK. U need to re check ur numbers about ICAP members working abroad....For your ease (as we have checked the calibre of an ACCA), I'm copying a link below where u can find the number of ICAP members working abroad.
http//www.icap.org.pk/directory200708/statistics.pdf
Hope that will ease out the stress somewhat.
There are cases, where ACCA granted exemptions for its 1.1, 1.2 1.3 papers (the previous scheme) to a science graduates, who never studied Accounting before. Mind it these papers specifically deals with the introductory parts of financial and management accounting, this speaks alot about the quality.....
One more suggestion, don't make assumptions about whether I'm an ICAP student or not. This a forum and we are expressing our views on a particular subject. Don't go beyond that....
- khani - 01-05-2009
Mr Kamran and all others I want to request you to please see the Mou signed between ICAI(India) and ICAEW in november,I do think that ICAI has secured a much respectful agreement with ICAEW. please compare the mou signed with ICAEW by India/Pakistan.
- mroneflower - 01-05-2009
Dear dreamsunlimited
Thanks for your link and document. Anyway last diagram say Public practice overseas members 13. So Only ICAP 13 members are working in Public practice (doing Audit) overseas. I think these ICAP 13 members also hold other qualifications means putting picture on someone else passport.
Only 13 ICAP members are in Public Practice (overseas) and there is no information at what position they are working. Even in Pakistan there are only 616 ICAP members in Public Practice.
Non-practicing overseas ICAP members are 857 there is no information what jobs they are doing. They might be accounts clerk, who knows.
Obviously 13 is big number for ICAP.
Khalid
- mroneflower - 01-05-2009
Dear khani
There is no doubt that ICAI(India) signed much respectful MOU with ICAEW, cause it is better institute than ICAP.
That is why I say ICAP is not recognised at internatinal level and the only reason is that ICAP and its members thinks they are the best. ICAP members used to say that they are better than
ICAI(India) members.
So ICAP is gateway to ICAEW.
Khalid
- kamranACA - 01-05-2009
Dear Khani,
I hope you can understand why India has entered in some-what different MOU than Pakistan. Pracs has made a good analysis on this thread. You can go back and check.
However, you must also know that India has always been getting better than us in whatever terms we discuss. India was an ally of USSR but it has always been getting more favors from even USA (that was our ally) when compared to us. I mean this is not a similar example but we must admit the facts while looking at the things. Yes, I am of the opinion that the quality of ICAP is better than ICAI. I have seen Indian CAs and while I have fullest regard for them I know the difference as well. This could be wrong in the view of so many others. Still, even with this situation they may be getting good from others which is not merely because of their bravery or quality or grace. This all finds its roots in so many political, economical, regional and financial factors which are basically the deriving force.
You know there had been a time when India was the biggest cosmetics consumption market for the world. During all such times, all the miss universe, miss Asia pacific and miss world titles were won by Indian girls. I wonder if they were better than rest of all in majority of the cases. The moment India placed barriers on cosmetics imports the situation has changed to a greater extent. Again, this is just to elaborate the facts. This has nothing to do with our profession but I want you to understand the facts.
Mutual recognitions and MOUs do not largely depend merely upon quality. There are so many other factors which are not surfaced for the general public. This has to be understood. Internationally speaking we had never been in any advantageous, blackmailing or superior position as a whole nation. Now I wonder, if some one does not find his-self a part of this nation. We are fighting back the bias and we must hope that we will get through this phase once we get some honest persons in the leadership.
I know some people cannot understand it.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- mroneflower - 01-05-2009
Dear Readers
One can make arguments in many ways, but the botton line is ICAP does not have any standing in the world. Only ICAP members are persuading everyone about the quality of ICAP members while degarding institutes with strong voice internationally and no one is listening ICAP. ICAP members used to say ICAP is better than ICAI(India) and time have proven otherwise. I do not know why ICAP and its members fooling themseleves. In reality no one cares about ICAP in world. ICAP sign MOU with ICAEW in March-April 2008 while ICAI(India) waited untill ICAEW signed MOU with ICAI(India) on its conditions. It means ICAI(India) was not keen in signing MOU with ICAEW as ICAP was.
Its also nice to see that ICAP members started saying MOU does not means quality of one institute members is lower than others but it is something to do with politics, however ICAP has been doing politics. If MOU is nothing to do with quality of ICAP members then why ICAP signed this MOU with ICAEW which states ICAP members are inferiors to others.Remember no one forced ICAP to sign this MOU. Actually by sigining this MOU, ICAP has admitted its members are inferior in quality and ICAP has no standing in the world. POOR ICAP.
One can understand what will be value of institute (ICAP) that has only 13 members working in public practice outside Pakistan. Remember these 13 people are not working in practice outseide Pakistan because they are ICAP members. They are working oversaes cause they are member of other institutes.
I hope time will come when ICAP will open its eyes and see reality. I can just pray.
Anyway it is ICAP members calim, ICapian unparallel without any standing in the world.
Khalid
- rabia-k - 01-05-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mroneflower</i>
<br />I think it better to completely ignore Kamran. Iwill therefore not reply to his post.
For people information I was offered training contract leading to examinations of ICAEW and ICAI (Ireland) after my ACCA, in UK. But I decided not to go for these qualifications as they do not add any value to one CV after ACCA.
<b>Information for Pakistani students who want to do ACA from ICAEW</b>
Let me clear that to do ACA from ICAEW students does not need to first do CA from ICAP or ACCA. Students do not have to be in training contract to start taking ICAEW exams. In fact students can take and pass 14 out of 15 exams of ICAEW outside training contract, means ICAEW 14 out of 15 exams can be taken and passed by studying full time and without joining any ICAEW authorised CA firm. But to take ICAEW final exam students have to be in final yr of their training (articleship).
Benefits of ICAEW over ICAP for students.
1)ICAEW does not take any admission or PPT test.
2)ICAEW does not require students to register with college (RAETs). Students can study privately or can register with more than one college (RAETs) at a same time.
3)If students do register with college (RAETs), students do not need to provide ICAEW college attendance record.
4)ICAEW marks papers according to standard and not to quta.
5)Students can take and pass papers one by one and students do not need to take and pass group of papers in one sitting.
6)If student pass any of ICAEW paper, student will retain this paper forever.
7) ICAEW professonal stage cosists of two levels Knowledge Level and Application level.
8)Knowledge level consists of 6 papers and duaration of exam at knowledge level is 1.5 hours and are computer based exams. It means students can chose date and time which is convenient to them.students does not require to take and and pass papers at Knowledge level at any particular sequence means student can chose to take and pass paper 6 (last Knowledge paper) first and paper 1 (first knowledge paper) at the end. So student can pick and chose.
9) Aplication level also cosists of 6 papers which are assessed in paper based exams of 2.5 hours. Again at application level student can pick and chose papers.
8) Adavance level consist of 3 papers and students can take and pass these 3 papers in one sitting.these papers can also be taken and passed separately.
<b>Students can register with ICAEW if they do have following qualifications</b>.
1)Four yrs bachelors from Pakistan.
2)Two yrs bachelors WITH two yrs Masters from Pakistan.
3)Two yrs Bachelors from Pakistan
4)ICAP students who have passed Module D (this need to checked with ICAEW).
5)AAT qualified (I think CAT qualified can also register)
<b>Entry rout for 4 yrs Bachelors from Pakistan OR Two yrs bachelors WITH two yrs Masters from Pakistan</b>
Student just register with ICAEW and therefore will be no need to pass or claim exemption from PPT (as ICAEW does not take PPT at all). Student can register with ICAEW by filling student registration form and sending registration fee to ICAEW. ICAEW may also give exemption in one or 2 papers if student has scored more than 60% marks in relevant subject.
Moreover students does not need degree in accounting or accounting related subjects to register with ICAEW. If students do not have degree in accounting or accounting related subjects then ICAEW will not give any exemption.
After registration with ICAEW student can start preparing to ICAEW exams by studying privately or at more than one college. Students does not need to provide their attendance record to ICAEW. Students pass 14 papers of ICAEW without starting training. After passing 14 papers students start 3 yrs training with ICAEW authorised firm in Pakistan and take final and last paper of ICAEW when they are in last (3rd) yr of training (articleship).
After passing last (paper no 15) paper and completing three yrs training (articleship) students apply for ICAEW membership and get ICAEW members.
NOTE Students can start their training at any time during their studies or at the same time with they register with ICAEW. Students can also leave one CA firm and join another CA firm, but in that case students need to join second CA firm within three months (I am not sure abt time period but it is definitely in months) of leaving their first firm. Students also does not need to take NOC from the firm which they are leaving as ICAEW does not require it.
<b>Entry route for Two yrs Bachelors from Pakistan</b>
Students need to take same steps which 4 yrs bachelors students Or 2 yrs Bachelors with 2 yrs Master students require to take. But in case of only two yrs Bachelors from Pakistan students will not be able to claim any exemption and training (articleship) period will be 5 yrs.
Students can take and pass 14 out of 15 papers inside or outside training contract, but student can take and pass ICAEW last paper in final yr of their training (articleship) contract i.e fifth yr.
<b>Route for AAT Qualified</b>
If students are full members of AAT then ICAEW will give exemptions and training period will be 2 yrs instead of 3 yrs.
<b>ICAP students who have passed Module D</b>
Such students are eligible to register with ICAEW.
Khalid
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
one more benefit of ICAEW is that you can become a member of GAA (GLOBAL ACCOUNTING ALLIANCE) please , all those doing ICAEW should check this website
http//www.globalaccountingalliance.com
- rabia-k - 01-05-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mroneflower</i>
<br />I am saying it again I am not interested in proving ACCA is better than ICAP, If ICAP thinks its better than please keep on thinking.
faizee and Dreamsunlimited are supposely be ICAP students and doing articles.One of them is suggesting that <b>International Federation of Accountants (IFAC), International Accounting Standards Board (IASB), Confederation of Asian & Pacific Accountants (CAPA), International Innovation Network (IIN) and South Asian Federation of Accountants (SAFA)</b> have authorised ICAP members to do audit.
Second one is suggesting beaury Salon requires Audit. Third one is suggestiong CPA are not equal CA. In many countries accountants are know as CPA. In USA accountant are know CPA, in Japan Accountant are know as CPA, in Singapore accountant are know as CPA, in Malaysia accountant are know as CPA. In China accountant are know as CPA, in Hong Kong Accountant are known as CPA. Remember Hong Kong CPA are directly admitted to ICAEW (ICAP yardstick) membership without any exam. In New Zealnd accountant used to be know as Society Accountant before 1995 and New Zealnad Accountant used to be (and still) admitted to ICAEW membership without any exams even when they used to be know as society Accountant.
I think Pakistani accountant like the word Chartered, that is why they replaced word Registered by Chartered (Pakistani accountant used to be know as Registered Accountant). That is why I say ICAP and its members need to come out of box.
I am really not able to answer ICAP members and students questions. Its nice to see caliber of ICAP members and students.
My question is still there in how many countries ICAP is recognised, I would love to know.
I think I am wasting my time in discussing with these people who do not have any knowledge.
Khalid
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
hi khalid if u want to know the worlds leading professional accounting bodies please check the following link
http//www.globalaccountingalliance.com/AboutUs.html
- mroneflower - 01-05-2009
Dear rabia-k
Thanks for your post and thanks for adding more benefit of ICAEW. I have been told that ICAP is not allowing ICAEW to conduct ICAEW professional stage examinations in Pakistan, although I have not checked with ICAEW yet.
I am aware of GAA. GAA was formed after ICAEW failed to merge with CIPFA and CIMA. Secondly want to know what tangible benefits GAA will bring. Could you kindly expalin.
One more thing CPA(USA) is part of GAA and CPA(USA) does not have MRA with any of other institute that are member of GAA, apart from ICAI(Ireland), if i am not wrong. In any case ICAP is not member of GAA.
CPA(Aus) has MRA with CPA(USA) but is not part of GAA.
What are you studying or are you member of any institute.
Khalid
- Shahbaz - 01-06-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mroneflower</i>
<br />Dear Shahbaz
I gave the reference, is it habit of Pakistani people to abuse others. If you r not interested in ICAEW, it does not mean other are also not interested.
Khalid
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dear Khalid bhai,
Unfortunately, Pakistantis also have the habit of following the west. I think this habit is also from the west. d
Regards,
Syed Muhammad Shahbaz
- mroneflower - 01-06-2009
Readers
I will advise all to lick on the link below that a job is advertised on ICAEW web site and employer asked for ACA or ACCA.
http//www.icaewjobs.com/jobs/816397/audit-assurance-aca-acca.asp
Khalid
- mroneflower - 01-06-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dreamsunlimited</i>
<br /> One more suggestion, don't make assumptions about whether I'm an ICAP student or not. This a forum and we are expressing our views on a particular subject. Don't go beyond that....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dear dreamsunlimited
Do you feel shame in being ICAP student or member. I can understand.
Khalid