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+--- Thread: ACCA Affiliate stipend slashed? in Big4 (/showthread.php?tid=5460)
- rabia-k - 02-25-2009
Mr Toronto Boy thanks , it will definetly help.
- Pracs - 02-25-2009
Kamran,
The problem with various members here is their lack of experience (I know people will start lynching me on this, but that my dear friends is the truth) and some members have never worked in Pakistan, but feel they are fully qualified to comment, infact advocate. As an ICAP student I (and believe me all students have done this, if some one denies it they are just in denial) too cursed the Institute and the CA Articles system, stipend, work load and the burden of trying to juggle two qualifications together. However, once you are pass your articles (having gone through the rigorous experience)and qualify you appreciate the training, the skills you acquire and the knowledge. Nothing will prepare you for practical professional life than an articles in Pakistan. What people fail to understand is articleship is training its an apprenticeship you are not paid for it, the stipend you receive is a stipend ! it does not come under the purview of minimum wage. I have quoted this on this forum before and will do so again what the Late Ashfaque sb. of PAC used to tell students on the first day
"Consider yourself to have joined the army, you have no social life here on, the only wedding you are permitted to go to is yours (if you are stupid enough to get married during your articles)gentleman you have joined the army!"
That is all you need to understand, really.
On a lighter note a freshly qualified ACCA is paid some thing over 35k in Financial Services, perhaps a little less outside of London and other industries,the 18k seems to be a very low figure that is some thing trainees in Big4 make.
Rabia, this 80 countries mantra is, well,how do I put it delicately get real. There are only a few countries where you can actually make a career, the Anglo Saxon / Commonwealth, UK, Canada, Australia, South Africa (not really people are migrating out, the Gulf (not included US, given the complexities), I am sure no one plans to move to Nigeria or Belize for that matter. So be rest assured you are getting the ingredients of an A Class career, its upto you how you use these ingredients.
- kamranACA - 02-25-2009
Dear Mr. Pracha,
I can understand what you have mentioned. However, there are certain things to add on.
The stipend rate for all ICAP students (at all entry streams and part qualification levels) is now more than the minimum wages stipulated in law. However, personally I believe that the stipend paid to students (at least in Pakistan) must not be considered as salary. If we feel it is salary then in some cases it must be beyond the 5 digit figures which of course cannot happen. In such cases anything below that figure may be considered a professional disgrace if we take the stipends in the meaning of salary. I know so many people living out cannot understand this difference.
For ACCAs, the stipend rates are settled by ACCA chapter on firm to firm basis, and if any firm is paying lesser in whatever category it is, this would be the fault of ACCA. If some body says that ACCA chapter does not have a similar influence on firms like what ICAP has, then it should be understood that such dissimilarity is natural and may be witnessed all around the globe in such situations. If it is a disgrace for ACCAs, (which in my view is not), be sure, this is done by ACCA chapter. I said things get reacted in response to how these have been acted upon. ACCA had never been fair with ICAP and as a matter of fact it does not harm the ICAP members. That's why you don't witness ICAP members complaining for it. This is a point to be understood. It is of vital importance. That's why I quoted the example of Hudaibia Pact. It is in fact an issue for poor ACCAs obliged to stay at Pakistan. The ones who leave may have a better deal in those 80 countries.
The point clarified by you regarding how the students feel during currency of their studies and training is a real picture of the situation. I wonder why it is indigestible for our fellows like Rafay. We know even in families the parents sometime become harsher with their kids to which kids never like and they protest against it, normally sons have lesser understanding/intimacy with fathers and more with mothers for the similar reasons (a famous Pakistani writer Mamtaz Mufti has explained this issue in a great deal in one of his books), in schools and colleges no one likes the hard nut teacher regardless of however efficient he is, in army trainings people even cry for the attitude of their trainers, in sports the disciplined coaches are rarely liked by the players (one can watch Chak Dey India); and this happens invariably in all cases without considering that the ultimate benefit is going to the so-called victims. Similarly, during the phase of studies and training people speak against ICAP, but eventually when they qualify, their views transform to those which this forum witnesses from Pracs and Kamran. This has to be understood. If one fails to grasp this idea, I don't have to argue with him.
As far as the matter of salaries for fresh ACCAs at UK is concerned, I may be totally wrong in quoting such figure of 18K pounds per annum since I am not at U.K. However, this is the feed back of some people known to me who have departed Pakistan recently for UK on the basis of their ACCA. One of extremely pro-ACCA member of this forum, in his post at another thread, confirmed this 18K figure at his own. I will search it and post the link for your review. Still, I feel your observation must be valid. I have already excluded UK and UAE from 80 countries being quoted by our fellows, although I am of the view that there are least opportunities at the moment.
Here I see some members overwhelmingly participate, respond and comment on the one sided prejudiced views of a specific class of ACCAs (I don't know what induces them to do it in that fashion) but whenever a reply or clarification is given by some body else to correct the things on record they declare it "useless ACCA v/s CA debate" and try to dilute the matter and get it escaped. I wonder what the dual policy they have and why they are feared of the issues getting explained. When some one will bring into question ICAP or CAs or local firms, the matter will definitely lead towards making the things clearer in the context of localized legislative framework and the facts on ground. Why it creates hitch to the ones who just want to endorse a baseless one sided view. No body can understand I guess.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- Pracs - 02-26-2009
Kamran
My observation is from personal experience Pakistani ACCAs with Big4 experience (Pakistan and/or Gulf) and local ACCAs here, However,I believe you and I'd rather you not quote that person's thread (as a matter of courtesy). Perhaps this person may not have had requisite experience etc. Well, not important really.
Toronto boy,
I don't see how I was personal in any manner, I simply mentioned a fact about people not having experience of the Pakistani market and about ACCA students in Pakistan but still commenting. Incidentally, I did not have you in mind (assuming you had recently migrated to Canada etc.) but certain other members, I guess this validates my point then.
I am not much of a writer, but would like to say that not being in Pakistan does not make me forget my experiences of the country and the ground realities prevalent there, more so I have a number of friends working in Pakistan a very close friend and relative of mine is an ACCA with Big4 training so I speak from first hand knowledge. Would you be surprised if I'd say the first job I landed in UK was based on my Pakistani ACA and not ACCA!
The country ACCA originated from ie UK, took the government's initiative ie DTI's (Department of Trade and Industry) initiative, regulation and policies to equate it to ICAEW. Had it been on ICAEW, they would have preferred their monopoly. I am a member of ACCA and it is in my interest to see it flourish all over, but there are certain ground realities which as ADULT, PROFESSIONALS one must come to terms with. (Remember I have not touched upon CGA vs. CICA). If you take a look at top industry leaders (Big4 is all ICAEW anyways), you will find that CFOs of FTSE 100 companies are 70% ICAEW members, the rest being ACCAs, CIMAs and foreign qualified accountants. Now, this may change going forward, but as of today this is the ground reality.
http//www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage/Home_page/Find_graduate_employers/p!emgfk?mode=displayprofile&adno=19244&from=D
Here is a more updated independent survey from Accountancy age showing ICAEWs 51% and ACCAs 5%
http//www.accountancymagazine.com/Accy_Mag/features/FD%20Focus_FTSE%20100paysurvey.pdf
My purpose is not to compare qualifications as a cost-benefit/Market share/skills analysis but to show how the market still perceives ICAEW years after ACCA was given equal rights. Things are one step behind in Pakistan for ACCA since it does not have the regulatory backing, in all fairness I do not think ACCA will ever get that kind of recognition in Pakistan. Look around the world no developed or developing (larger economies like Pakistan or India) have or will ever let a foreign institute have regulatory status. Despite ACCAs recognition in Australia, Canada and South Africa the local qualifications have regulatory backing, Period.
Having said that, the CCAB route for ACCA to ICAEW speaks volume of how things are progressing, after all we do live in interesting times
- Toronto_Boy - 02-26-2009
Dear Pracs
I do appreciate your response. You would notice that I had already trashed my post, before your above post, in response of which you wrote these lines.
My presence here is just for all students of accounting including ACCA's who in my view are not on equal playing field in Pakistan. Even my objective is, not to promote ACCA in Pakistan, but to support for competition based on abilities and market forces, and to plead for not curbing it through administrative measures. I thinks, this way, not only the accounting profession would flourish further in Pakistan but also would be better for Pakistan and Pakistani associations in long run.
I do agree with you about your logic in above post, though we can discuss things further. Unfortunately, discussion on this forum, quickly goes beyond civil limits.
As last words, I would say that some people on this forum, eventually ends-up on poster with personal comments rather than confining themselves to reasons/ querries/ logics they were responding to.
Regards
- kamranACA - 02-26-2009
Dear Pracs,
Thank you for believing in the words. I do understand that your view point is based upon personal experience and observation.
I also agree that any debate should not cross the moral limits. However, I wonder why no such comments come when pro-ACCA people do it. Is there a need to quote examples when such things did happen and our kind fellows responded to such posts gladly without giving any note of criticism? I don't even expect it. However, it was just to remind something. Actions should speak instead of words, I think. These limits should also be kept in view while calling the others as Janoo German. Every one is very much honored and must be doing well in his own sphere of professional life. However, the people calling others as Janoo German, if at any moment of their life will come back to the home-land, will have to depend on such Janoo Germans. It is matter of fact regardless of its acceptance or non-acceptance. For so manys such matter of fact is a reason to criticize others. We have witnessed such cases.
I said if ACCA would be given audit charter here in Pakistan, I would be the first to vote for such a proposal. I agree it will enhance a good professional competition. It will also expose the ones who make big claims behind this wall.
ICAP, as I have been explaining earlier, is not a reason of any obstacle that the other designation-holders believe in or doubt for. It's extremely co-operative, pro-active and look forward to follow all the best professional practices.
One of the ICAP members suggested European Commission (Director General, Internal Market and Services) to discuss the issue of establishment of Independent Public Oversight System for Audit of Listed Companies with the regulators of Pakistan. This concerns cases where a client company of auditors is registered in a non-EU country but its securities are listed on European Capital markets. This may entail detailed registration requirements for auditors (in Pakistan) since they fall under the oversight of the EU Member State concerned (ref European Directive on Statutory Audit 2006/43/EC). The principles to be based for such an Independent Public Oversight System are
- the systems are independent from the audit profession;
- they ensure adequate oversight for audits of listed companies;
- their operation is transparent and ensures that the outcome of quality assurance reviews is reliable;
- they are supported by investigations and penalties in an effective way.
It may be noted that our audit firms can get registered even if such oversight system is not brought in place. Still, the ICAP representative (Council member, at his own has asked EC to discuss the issue with Pakistani regulators so that a step forward could be taken for a better system.
Let's see if such a system comes into existence and what other things will it bring with. I am foreseeing some good news for certain other designation-holders as well, provided the scenario changes after introduction of the new system. However, so far it is only a suggestion.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- seesamad - 03-13-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Toronto_Boy</i>
<br />
To become CGA Canada, an ACCA member needs to satisfy very minimal requirements, like two days online Canadian Law review course.
Regards
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Toronto boy .. Are you sure that ACCA member could be CGA after fulfiling 2 days law course ? Kindly confirm or let me know the official link so that i may confirm myself.
Thanks Abdul samad
http//www.linkedin.com/in/seesamad
- Toronto_Boy - 03-13-2009
Dear seesamad
I have provided the link for FAQs in one of my above posts that should have contact info too. However, I repeat this link here again;
http//www.cga-canada.org/en-ca/International/StrategicAlliances/MraAccaCga/Pages/ca_mra_faq_acca.aspx
For further help, contact your association directly. That would be more authentic way.
I hope it helps.
Regards
- Toronto_Boy - 03-13-2009
Yes, the above link has forms to download. FAQ# 6 to 9 pertains to your specific question. Here are more links;
https//www.cga-pdnet.org/en-CA/PDResources/Pages/OverviewofCanadianTaxandLaw-2008.aspx
https//www.cga-pdnet.org/en-CA/degrees_designations/Pages/ACCA.aspx
Best Wishes
- Bilal Sulehri - 04-11-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Toronto_Boy</i>
<br />Dears
If I am not wrong, the minimum wage is Pak Rs. 6000/month. How come professional firms, professional institutes, and their members which should be advocate of rule of law in the country can ignore minimum wages regulations? Someone said that firms do not pay any thing in initial months. Is it true?
If it is true, then is it ethical and professional approach? What happens to advocacy for rule of law when it comes to our own interests?
Some points to ponder...
Regards
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Aoa
Minimum wage rule doesnt apply to trainees!
- sk8erboiME - 04-14-2009
hello
firstly i wanna thank you all for finding solutions of man created problems, i have been reading concerning threads to get help. Now there is something i wanna ask.
ICAEW is now in pakistan, i contacted the college providing tuition, i told em my situation that i am an ACCA student with two papers left to become an affiliate, what they have told me is that if i apply for ICAEW exemptions now before appearing for next ACCA exams, there will be no exemption fee but if i apply for exemptions after becoming ACCA affiliate i will have to pay exemption fee.
My simplest question is what if i apply for exemptions now and register in ICAEW now is it a good idea?
and if i start my training after that, will my training period counts for both AccA and ICAEW?
whats the truth guys?
regards-
- kamranACA - 04-16-2011
Recalling of a discussion of the times left behind.
Regards
- cs007 - 04-16-2011
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Recalling of a discussion of the times left behind.
Regards
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Plz plz answer my qs Sir ...Aff's Sections (Karchi) Plz reply KmaranACA... on Firms forum by cs007 ..plz it wuld b very kind of you