+- Accountancy Forum (https://www.accountancy.com.pk/forum)
+-- Forum: The Profession (https://www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Students (https://www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: 2 years ICAEW training waived to ICAP members (/showthread.php?tid=6221)
2 years ICAEW training waived to ICAP members - UzairCh - 07-19-2009
Several of Firms and employers in Pakistan became approve training offices (ATOs) for ICAEW training and it was repeated asserted that this is only for ICAP members and training will not be offered to others.
I wonder what will happen now as ICAP qualified CAs are out of the race for ICAEW Training contract because they are waived off 2 years additional training. They only need to pass 4 exams now.
Although it was false to say that ICAEW in Pakistan is only for ICAP members as I am CIMA qualified and currently on an ICAEW Training contract at Ernst and Young in Pakistan. Now I feel it will make it more easy for ACCAs and CIMAs to get ICAEW training in these firms and in long term this can create problems for ICAP because CA England and Wales will increase rapidly. It will also ruin ICAEW's worth.
- Odyssee - 07-19-2009
ICAEW contract in pakistan? thats a great news!!! May i know since how long are you on ICAEW training contract?
- UzairCh - 07-19-2009
Since March 2009. I registered with ICAEW in December 2007 and claimed my free exemptions in June 2008.
- Odyssee - 07-20-2009
do u know any ACCA Affiliate who also has an ICAEW training contract?
- kamranACA - 07-20-2009
Dears,
It is good to see how effective is the banning from Admin.
ICAEW's approval to larger number of firms was merely for the sake of training ACA students who wish to do it from ICAEW after CA from ICAP. It was not for generalized ICAEW contracts. EY might have been approved for this purpose like technobeavers. I cannot comment unless I discuss with PM or some one else at EY. I will comment on the arrangement after some clarity.
However, the ones who never accepted the difference of UK qualified ACCA and Pak qualified ACCA, for whatever reasons, are now acceding to what was told to them.
It's no wonder if they have kept their ill will alive for ICAP. They have their 2 years to prove the things. We will wait for them.
I know it's impossible for some buddies to understand how things act and react. Today ICAEW has waived training to ICAP then there may come a day when all papers except case study will be exempeted to them then may come a day when India will allow ICAEW's training. But nothing will make them understand. This is a changing world. End of days has not come!!! It's hard to understand.
Some one was banned for using ACCA designation at the time when he was not even affiliate. I remind he became affiliate in DEC 2008 while he used this designation in 2006 at this forum with his name. This is discreditable to profession and was a major reason of getting banned.
I invite attention of Admin to fix this problem if they have some time spare for the well being of the forum.
Regards,
Kamran.
- ausmanpk2001 - 07-20-2009
Do all ATO's sign ICAEW contracts to non ICAP students? I'm an ACCA student. Plz give information
Regards
- hanifasif - 07-20-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by UzairCh</i>
<br />
Now I feel it will make it more easy for ACCAs and CIMAs to get ICAEW training in these firms and in long term this can create problems for ICAP because CA England and Wales will increase rapidly. It will also ruin ICAEW's worth.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes, I agree, it will ruin ICAEW's worth. With hundreds of ACA (ICAEW) to-be churned out in Pakistan every year will surely infest the job market with qualified accountants (ACCAs, ACAs(ICAP) and now of ICAEW's).
Well, lets see...
- UzairCh - 07-21-2009
The very first day when ICAEW was launched in Pakistan, I telephoned ICAEW contact person in UK and they said their ATOs are ATOs for all. They donot differentiate on the basis that this ATO is only for ICAP this is only for ACCA and this is only for inducting graduates. Whether to recruit anyone or not, is the decision the firm has to make itself. ICAEW or ICAP or Emile Woolf cannot dictate them to recruit people from one qualification and dont accept others. Just for example EY UK has a policy that they will only train for ICAS (institute of Chartered Accountants in Scotland) and not train for ICAEW. ICAS has not forced EY UK to make this decision but its EYs internal policy.
I can confirm that I personally know 5 ACCA affiliates who are on ICAEW Training contract in 3 different firms in Lahore. (one firm not big 4 but in big 10).
So the decision is based on how strong a reference you have with the partner, believe me there is no such policy like NOT Allowed for ACCAs.!!! and by the way ICAP CAs dont need articls NOW SO ITS ONLY LEFT WITH ACCAs to go for ICAEW articles in these approved firms.
From 1st July ICAEW waived 2 years addition articles to ICAP members. All those ICAP Chartered accountants who were on their ICAEW articles have had their articles cancelled.!!!
I believe those who qualify ACA (ICAEW) in Pakistan in initial years from any big 4 can benefit as they would be first ones with ACA Englang & Wales and also additional qualifications like ACCA or CIMA. But in later years when ICAEW ACAs increase, worth of ICAEW will start to fall. Get ACA ICAEW in 3 years time and go abroad to set yourself otherwise if you get late there will be many more like you around. Its a very good chance to flourish right now if you are an ACCA affiliate -)
Even though I am CIMA qualified and on ICAEW training contract in Pakistan, I think ICAEW should never have been launched in Pakistan. They are here only to make money in longterm but would end up in destroying their worth.
- Odyssee - 07-21-2009
thanks for the info
- UzairCh - 07-21-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Haider Abbas PWC Partner, Islamabad, has confirmed me that at present they are not accepting ACCA or CIMA for ICAEW Training contract.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dear mroneflower1
Thats what my point is!! Let me narrate my experience. I registered with ICAEW in December 2007 as I told in the first post. After that I contacted firms in Islamabad and Lahore for ICAEW articles and they were all saying like -
"wait we dont know if we can offer you contract or not let us phone our fellows in karachi and confirm what should we do kindly contact us next week"
Then they phoned to their karachi offices and karachi fellows were all saying
"WE DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO LET US CONTACT ICAP KARACHI OFFICE FOR MORE INFORMATION"
And then the directives were coming from ICAP KARACHI OFFICE and they were
"<b>no ICAEW articles for ACCA and CIMA only for ICAP members"</b>
So it was inquiries going from down to top and directions coming from up the hierarchy.
And when I contacted ICAEW they used to say no there is no such rule its open for all and I was very furious about all what was happening.
The funnier thing is that now ICAP ACAs dont require ICAEW articles so now ask Mr Haider Abbas if not for ICAP, not for ACCA and not for CIMA then who for????
I initially thought partners of firms would love have 2 years additional ICAEW articles for ICAP members coz this way they can retain newly qualified talent into firms as managers for sometime. People just qualify CA and leave the firm (though now even newly qualified CAs not leaving firms because of recession). So all ATOs are in confusion now what should they do they have 2 options
1) Allow ACCA and CIMAs in their firms
2) Else cancel their approved firm status which they will feel we should not do when some firms are still continuing it out there.
- rabia-k - 07-22-2009
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mroneflower1</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by UzairCh</i>
<br /> Even though I am CIMA qualified and on ICAEW training contract in Pakistan, I think ICAEW should never have been launched in Pakistan. They are here only to make money in longterm but would end up in destroying their worth.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I will just say there is nothing which can stop ICAEW for lanuching its full qualiication in Pakistan. India is differenct as Indian parliment passed law whereby no oerseas professional body can authorise ATO in India including ACCA and ICAEW.
1) ICAEW UK qualified (Top one)
2) ICAEW Pakistan Qualified (second category)
3) ICAEW Qualified through gateway Qualification (i.e ICAP)
Mroneflower
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
category one - ICAEW UK qualified
category two - ICAEW Pakistan Qualified
third category - (wannabe ACA's) qualified through gateway qualifications CIMA qualified /ACCA qualified cum ICAEW qualified [D][D]
- kamranACA - 07-22-2009
Dear,
Interesting posts and informative material from Uzair.
The confusion was started by ICAEW in fact. It never declared any other streamline for training contracts in Pak except for ICAP members. Had it been the case the people debating here must have pointed out far before since this issue was vigorously discussed. The webpages of ICAEW which now talk about the training opportunities in Pakistan for all students (excluding ICAP members) didn't even on-air this info on their website ever before. I don't say Uzair is not right but am telling you my experience of visiting ICAEW's website which I had been doing frequently, specially in the days when we got authorization of our firm.I am currently posting from my blackberry. I will confirm from my record and let you know if there had been any clarification from ICAEW regarding which categories of students we could intake. I doubt such clarification was sought and given but at the moment I am not confirmed what was the exact outcome.
It's really a question about the status of authorization of our firms if ICAP members are no more required to undergo such training.
As far as differentiating the qualifications with reference to origin, route or exemption mode etc is concerned the fingers raised on Pakistan are simply hilarious and show the affected sentiments about homeland. When 2 years training was a condition then these people used to say that end of times has come, no improvement is possible at all and Pakistan has become worst place for professionals.ICAP was criticised for changing its policies over the time without giving an ear to the clarification that this is a changing world.However, now when training condition has been removed this mentality didn't comment on ICAEW who is non-pak body and has changed their decision in a short while (as it is a changing world), but found new way to portray their mindset against Pakistan and ICAP. I suggest them to take an ACCA from Pak to UK and let him win the quest of finding a job or even training contract in competition with British and with UK qualified ACCAs. Reasons are enormous.I don't discuss rare cases!
Further, if some one will visit ICAEW's website, he/she will see that certain designations are given exemptions for ICAEW's qualification. However, there is a condition that such exemption is not available to such other designation-holders who carry it without qualifying its exams as a result of mutual recognitions with other bodies in the world that are not accepted by ICAEW for exemption or equivalence.
So dears, such treatments are also prevelant all over the globe and are not out of the world at all. Is there a need to quote further examples?
I think no body should abstain others from doing CA after ACCA or CIMA be it from ICAEW or ICAP or whatever. Every qualified person has the wisdom to take such decisions. If some body does not find his-self upto it, it's his personal issue. Every one knows why Pakistan, ICAP, (even ICAEW) and circumstances are criticised by people sitting out. I wonder why ICAI (of Ireland) is not being criticised. The qualification of some guys does not make them to fly back even they are supposed to have qualified from masters' land. They wonder why master slave rule does not apply in their case. The experiences prove that there is confusion and frustration which has been time and again expressed on the forum. Example can be quoted using their own words posted here.
In fact this is not a master slave issue. There could be so many reasons which require lots of time to discuss which I know will be wasted if invested.
By the way if some ACCA (may be affiliate or member presently) will make telephonic calls to the partners of CA firms located in Pakistan, (more specifically Islamabad that is probably the localized residential place of such ACCA), to inquire about the availbility of training arrangements for ICAEW's CA on the basis of ACCA designation, what would it mean for? This is a simple question!!! No offense should be taken.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- rabia-k - 07-22-2009
one fellow on this forum keep advising others not go for ICAEW after ACCA, while himself claims to be in a contract with the ICAI (ireland).!!
might be possible that ICAEW's will loose their worth like ACCA has with
tons of pakistani ACCA's flowing into the gulf, desperately seeking jobs, after failing to attain a decent one in pakistan.
- kamranACA - 07-22-2009
Rabia,
Recent history has shown some instances of using two IDs by same person for favoring the messages posted by him using such IDs alternatively so that people find the false image that two persons on this forum have similar opinions.
We all know that for one ID he had been claiming ACCA designation while for other he used to claim the CA designation of ICAS. At the same time he had been lecturing CA students on morality, professionalism and threatening them to report their so-called cases to ICAP. What a great example of professionalism!
Largely it was proved that a person who qualified as ACCA affiliate in December 2008 claimed to be ACCA member in 2006. Using such designation without having it lawfully is discreditable to the profession.
We know the person referred by you tried his fate at ICAI and left un-successful declaring that he now does not need it being an ACCA. He is still making calls to CA firms in Pakistan inquiring possibilities for ICAEW's contract. This is not what I have mentioned. I am just pointing out.
The man under refernce has so many times advised others to be relevant and not to waste time and energies. We all know he did his M.A. at Pakistan before trying ACCA and strived for CA as well. At least ICAI issue has been admitted by him. We may assume he did his MA just for the sake of thrist of knowledge. May I remind he did his ACCA in 31 plus in December 2008. How relevant and time efficient this example is.
We can discuss more, if it would be needed.
I wonder how Admin has allowed such person to post using third ID. Were 2 IDs not fullfiling his needs. Who knows if he has a fourth one as well!!!
I might have not been posting (at least regularly) here but this man has pulled me back. Interesting!!! At least people will see my presence on his threads unless he uses entirely a different identity through 4th or 5th ID.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- Astute Accountant - 07-23-2009
<font size="4"><font color="red"><b><center>Welcome Dear Brother</center></b></font id="red"></font id="size4">
Good to see you back! Your fans were feeling sad about your departure. But I told them that Bhai must be <b>busy</b> and he'll be back soon Inshallah.