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who has given this ppp mna vote? - Printable Version

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who has given this ppp mna vote? - nakaiun - 09-20-2009


this is bad yaar who give ashiq awan votes

- nakaiun - 09-20-2009


watch this [(] Pakistan ka Allah hi hafiz hay

- kamranACA - 09-20-2009

By the way Dr. Awan's allegations are not baseless. I am telling this with fullest responsibility and on the basis of believable evidence.


- nakaiun - 09-20-2009

i also know the background of kashmala but i think so this is time to solve people's problem and bythe ways awan is orignally elceted from q

- kamranACA - 09-20-2009


- Odyssee - 09-20-2009

The standards of morality vary from culture to culture and society to society. Test the past and present activities of our legislators by any standard or by any moral compass, and you would be left appalled almost every time. Apparently 'the filth on earth' has been representing us in the Parliament. The credentials of our previous and present MPs range from credit card thieves to heavy weights of corruption, from money launderers to rapists, from tax evaders to terrorists(either in turban or jeans) , from feudal landlords to hoarders, from extortionists to murderers, from land grabbers to patrons of red light districts, from alcoholics to fornicators, and it goes on and on. Has anyone seen the declaration of income and assets of our legislators?

I see the current incident under discussion quite insignificant...I mean, just look at the symbol of our federation... Appalled?

- kamranACA - 09-20-2009


You have rightly pointed out the circle which keeps on surrounding the parliament, politics, army generals, brothels, criminality, jails, and world of sins.

We all know it and have seen so many real examples. Books like "My Feudal Lord", "aur line katt gai" and "parliment say bazaar-e-husn tak" etc have never been challenged by any one in spite of loads of defamatory disclosures. Many os us have gone through these books. We know the character of all the renowned leaders either political or religious.

However, regardless of above, we always vote for the same faces and characters. We have never learnt the lesson. During the currency of their tenure we become vocalists but after a break of 4 to 5 years they again turn up to be angels for us.

In fact we all are a given population which is ruined, full of dirt, filth and corruption. We feel corruption as corruption and imoral as immoral when others do it. When we and our loved ones do it, it gets so many reasons to make justified basis.

I was saying we are a given population. All the filth at parliament or seen elsewhere is a SAMPLE drawn from the same population.

We all need to correct ourselves. If our leaders are sinful, no body but we are sinful.



- Odyssee - 09-21-2009


Though I agree that as a society we are corrupt. It is we who bribe the Govt. officials for various reasons, it is we who do not submit tax returns, it is we who steal electricity etc. But I do not agree that our Parliament is a random sample of the general population. If our country would have been an ideal democracy then this might have been the case. But is Pakistan an ideal democracy?

How can a peasant and a laborer give an independent opinion? Can a peasant cast his vote against his feudal and landlord? I am quite certain that the average income of a parliamentarian is multiple times more than the average income of an ordinary Pakistani citizen. The percentage of population living under poverty line is speculated to be around 40%. How many of our parliamentarians represent that 40% our country? How many of our MPs represent the middle class? How can a feudal solve the problems of a peasant? How can an industrialist find solutions to the woes of a laborer? They are meant to solve our food problems, when they have never ever experienced hunger. They are meant to solve our education problems when their own children study in foreign countries. Their children then return to take over the seats of their fathers. How many of the MPs have ever traveled via public transport? Do they even know the prices of everyday groceries? Do they know what unemployment is? Sir, I for one do not believe that they represent us. They are a separate class distinct from the general population. They are the offspring of the same families which are bound to rule this nation forever because of the feudal and tribal culture prevalent in the rural as well some urban areas of our country. Many of the political parties in our country are formed on the basis of ethnicity and only get votes from people of that very ethnicity they represent. Though I do not consider it racism but I consider it as an evolved form of our tribal mentality. In short, genuine democracy, where the population casts their vote on the basis of policies and performance of the contenders, does not exist in Pakistan.

Our elections never offer any choice. The intelligentsia of our country understands this and thus never cares to vote in the elections because of the above mentioned reasons. I must add that it is only the intelligentsia which can lead any nation to prosperity. But our intelligentsia is either pessimistic about their future in this country or have already migrated to other countries.

Sir, why this isn’t the case in Western democracies? Generally speaking, expatriates from Pakistan are law abiding citizens living in different countries. Why do expatriates from this country, who are products of a corrupt and morally degenerated society, follow the laws of the country to which they immigrate, and live their lives morally as per western standards? (there might be a few exceptions, but only few).

- kamranACA - 09-21-2009


First of all I am of the view that the feudals and capitalists are also part of the population mix which includes poor peasants. They don't come from the skies and occusionally face even worst of the times than a peasant or normal citizen.

Secondly, I wish you to concentrate on number of seats in the parliament the majority of which represents Punjab.

In Punjab most of parliamentarians (in National as well as Provincial setups) do not come from feudal families. I agree there are certain exceptions like Faisal Saleh Hayat and Abida Hussain (from Jhang), Khar family (kot addu) and Laghari family (from DGKhan and Fort Minro etc) but majority has a back ground of common citizens. As an example the parliamentarians from my constituency since the Junejo regime had been from the middle class families.

In NWFP most of parliamentarians had been from religious school of thought and were not the feudals. Even ANP is mostly represented by high middle class people.

In Sindh, MQM (whatever it is and however it wins) does not relate to feudal setup or elite class. MQM, we should not forget, has second majority in Sindh (Karachi, Hyderabad and Sukkur etc).

The capitalists who are in billions, were in past, the normal businessmen. You can search every one's history.

Feudal setup, elite class differential and other variants are a fact of life. However, entire parliament is not their representative. Further, the Establishment which has a major part in governance does not necessarily relate to such elite back ground. We can quote hundreds of examples.

The problems which you have pointed out are in fact the major obstacle but this, in my view, does not prove that entire parliament is not representative of the population.

The inteligensia, I believe, does not exist in our country. One day you will find this fact as well, I hope. They all are blackmailers and criticise various setups for their personal benefits. You name a few inteligensia and then institute a research on their recent past. You will figure them out. Your inteligensia (majority) is also not in a position to reflect truthful wealth and income. I know even they can't reconcile it with taxes.

This is a lengthy topic and may entail face to face discussions to prove a point. I hope we are not geared up to such an exercise.

Eid mubarik to you and all forum members!



- Sitara - 09-21-2009

EID MUBARAK from my sight as well

- Odyssee - 09-21-2009


My argument in the above post might have given an impression that I see the politics as a 'feudal vs peasant' or 'capitalist vs worker' debate; though i assure you that I do not believe in this crude generalization and oversimplification.

I agree that this a lengthy topic which requires a detailed discussion. The dynamics of each province of our country are quite different and the study of the politics in all four provinces, including the rural and urban divide, requires an in-depth analysis in order to develop concrete conclusions. I still have certain points in my mind which I would like to discuss such as the role of ethnicity and dynasty politics prevalent within our political system. But lets keep that activity for some other day.

During my criticism of politicians I completely overlooked the role of our bureaucracy in governance. Thank You for reminding that to me.

I might have some utopian views about our 'intelligentsia'; maybe that view would change with the passage of time.

I wish you and all the members of this forum Eid Mubarak and I hope that peace and happiness prevails on the occasion of this auspicious festival.


- kamranACA - 09-21-2009


Thank you for the reply.

Caste system has shown its severe impact on driving the results of elections for many terms. I understand what do you mean by "genuine democracy" and agree to the point you have made. However, it's not "merely" due to involvment of ethnic groups, caste drivin system, feudal or capitalist involvement. Yes, these contribute in deteriorating the situation further.

You wrote in your post that we are those who bribe the officials, who don't file returns and who steal electricity. I agree! However, I may also mention that we are those who accept bribe from public and create reasons for it, we are those who close our eyes when people don't comply what is required by them. Our entire public sector is corrupt. They are not aliens; rather our own Chacha, Maamoo, phoopha are sitting over there. Wherever feasible our private sector also contribute fullest share to every negativity. The corporate frauds are the examples. We know this happens cross the border as well but in our country we have crossed the limits since we don't have corrective system in place to compensate for its effects.

So, I am of the confirmed view that we all have to correct ourselves. Unless and until we do it, the SAMPLE of the random POPULATION will never change.

Establishment also includes armed forces and other such stakeholders like ISI, IB, agencies and also judiciary if it is not independent.

Thanks for correcting the spellings of Intelligentsia. We will discuss the basis of my conclusion about them.

Thanks again.


Thank you.



- Odyssee - 09-23-2009


I hope you had a wonderful Eid.

An article published in the recent issue of Forbes Asia Magazine dated 21 September 2009 caught my attention. The article was about Saif Group, one of the leading business conglomerates of Pakistan with a strong presence in the Textiles, Power Generation, Oil & Gas Exploration, Real Estate Development, Healthcare, Environmental Technology, Telecommunications and Information Technology industries. The history of Saif Group and its involvement in politics interested me deeply as I had a discussion with you on a somehow related topic, a day before.

I would like to quote a few excerpts from that article, which I believe you would find interesting

"<i>[Saif]</i>clan claim<i>(s)</i> to be among Pakistan's wealthiest."

"Khan Faizullah Khan<i>(the founder of the Group)</i>, was a contractor, and the British used him to build roads and the cantonment areas in the district of Dera Ismail Khan and in present-day Waziristan. Locals were hostile to the colonial rulers, but Faizullah was a welcome visitor. Before starting any project, he would build a mosque and a surface well for the faithful to do their ablutions. "He was very pious, and people liked that," says Javed Khan."

"The family started dabbling in politics from the time of Faizullah. In 1936 the government held elections, and he was chosen for the legislative assembly. Javed's father, too, was elected to the national assembly in 1962, and his mother, who is today 84, succeeded him. Javed's brothers have taken up that calling. One <i>[Salim Saifullah]</i> has held positions of leadership with the Pakistan Muslim League (Q), which was set up by the former dictator Pervez Musharraf. Another, Anwar, 63, is a member of the provincial assembly and a member of the party in power, the Pakistan People's Party (the party of Benazir Bhutto, which is now led by her widower, Asif Ali Zardari). Anwar is also on the short list for the next governor of the province."

The webpage of Saif Group states that
"Our founder Khan Faizullah Khan had considerable land holdings and influence in the region."

The purpose of quoting the above article is not to prove any point but to share some recently published information which you and the members of this forum would find interesting. One can reach to his own conclusions and make up his own mind after reading the whole article, the links of which I have provided.

I completely agree with you that the only way to improve and correct our society is to first of all improve and correct ourselves.

I would definitely like to know the basis of your conclusion about intelligentsia in Pakistan.

Sir, I must mention that I have learned a lot from this discussion for which I would like to thank you.


- kamranACA - 09-23-2009

Dear Odyssee

Saif group is a sound business hub and I am looking forward to their upcoming 200 MW power project for some reasons.

We have certain big names of landlords in Punjab like I mentioned earlier. I don't know if Faizullah had any holding in Punjab since D I Khan is in NWFP.

I am still of the view that the wealth concentration and socially unjustified system is a biggest hurdle in development. But! But it is not solely responsible for everything, specially what is happening at the locations charged with governance.

Correction at basic unit level is the primary requirement. If we are habitual of selling our votes, doing injustice to our duties, being the worst example of dishonesty, giving to this country far lesser than what we intend to take out, looting public resources, hiding income to understate taxes etc etc, we will never take a step forward to any improvement.

I did not cast my vote in most of the election terms. No body came to hang me. Similarly, if some one will not mis-use his/her statutory right, at most of places, he will not be compelled to do otherwise. MQM is not in existence every where. I don't know about them; I believe they are backed by peoples' voice. This sentence is just precautionary. Like wise every area is not the tribal area. Punjab is the major part, as I said earlier and public at most of its areas is so independent. At NWFP, recent win by ANP against MMA shows that people are independent at large. I normally don't comment about Baluchistan since I don't know its situation practically. When we saw defeat of biggest pillars in last elections nothing went against the people for their decision.

Odyssee, believe you me it's simply a lack of positive intent. How can we deny it after reinstatement of CJ; a recent history making event. If we are geared to do something we can do it even if USA and agencies don't wish it. we have to do everything, we have to correct everything.

Riches, poors, common and figures exist every where. Believe me in the longer run such variants can't do a major damage.

The damage is done by our hands and only we can repair it. What lacks is unity and a positive intention.



- Odyssee - 09-24-2009


I just wanted to clarify one thing. My criticism of feudals and landlords wasn't Punjab specific. Though I can understand why some people associate the term 'feudal' and 'landlords' only with Punjab.

I wasn't eligible to vote during the elections in 2008 because I wasn't 18 years old during the registration in the voters list. I wouldn't have cast my vote anyways. Since I am a non-partisan person who does not have any sympathies with any political party , I am in a position to freely criticize any party. But I don't want to criticize a specific party as it would give a biased impression, but I must say that whether it is ANP in NWFP or MQM in urban Sindh , they all receive votes only from the people of the ethnicity, caste or language they represent. Such examples could be given from other provinces as well. So generally speaking, I see elections as basically a clash of castes and ethnicities or a clash of feudals. The case is different for religious parties but yet again it would require a lot of time for an in-depth analysis. You would agree that castes, language and ethnicity plays a major role in our politics. When elections are fought on that very basis, how can we have national unity? Secondly, the role of establishment and commitments with foreign countries cannot be ignored in the outcome of the elections.

I agree that there is a lack of positive intent in the general population. Though I do not consider myself as a pessimist(reading Cowasjee makes me pessimistic) but at least there should be realistic reasons available to back our positive intentions. But still, I would like to say that I found your views quite inspirational and optimistic.

Sir, I would like to know that why do you think that intelligentsia does not exist in Pakistan? Is it because of our educational system, social system or simply 'The System'? Secondly, why is it that the same very people who do not file tax returns, bribe officials as well as accept bribes themselves, steal electricity etc.(in short, ACT ILLEGALLY most of the time) change their habits as soon as they migrate to another country?

Since my views are based upon extremely limited and negligible knowledge and data, I consider this as an opportunity to learn from senior members who have a vast experience, knowledge and a broader understanding of the subject. I hope you forgive me for my bad manners.