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+--- Thread: who has given this ppp mna vote? (/showthread.php?tid=6600)
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- kamranACA - 09-24-2009
Odyssee
Some younger fellows can be far better than so many seniors; however, it's good if you keep every one,s regard. It will benefit noone but you. When I see your posts I recall Iqbal's prayer "khirad ko ghulaami say azaad kar, jawaano ko peeron ka ustaad kar". Keep it up.
I quoted an example of CJ's reinstatement. Do you know who were the persons badly beaten on roads, humiliated, disgraced, banned, and jailed during this movement? The ones who sacrificed respect, dignity, livelihood and so much which we may not be able to measure. The ones who did not care even for their lives and came on roads for a cause in the worst days of expected suicide attacks. Do you know any one's caste or ethnic group? I must say such persons were not merely the lawyers, although no one can undermine their role by any means. Do you feel Establishment was willing for such reinstatement or our Masters voice was leading us to such a direction?
So my friend, the problems you point out always exist and majority, in my opinion, also exists in other countries as well.
As far as caste/ethnic issue is concerned, it is again nothing but our own fault which no one will come to rectify, but us. Here we severely lack a positive intent. We don't go to the voice of our hearts but to the voice of our groups. I agree representatives have to represent the people backing them but in 21st century the concept of such backing should be changed. Who has to change it? Let's find it's answer. To my understanding no Jesus will come to teach us the answer. Certainly this divide, this preference, and this concept has been build up by our hands and only we have to undo it.
Let me assure you no leader will emerge in next thousand years to resolve these problems. We have to realize our faults and we have to mend our ways. Our entire methodology of practicing the life is incorrect. You name any aspect and you will find the pitfalls.
I wonder "gora" ruled this region for lesser than 90 years and gave a bunch of systems, standards and procedures along with the entire infrastructure that was needed. "Gora" used local resources and local labor. The day he left, we have done nothing but destruction on every front. Why we were good in the presence of Gora and bad in his absence? This is a question similar to your query about why we don't create mess abroad but always do locally? It appears we have a slave or follower mindset and we always need a master to guide us and correct us. The day when we will start realizing our shortcomings will be the turning point which your eyes are searching for.
Intelligentsia will be a lengthy discussion unless you name a few of them thereby enabling me to provide you my comments about them. I believe there is no intelligentsia in Pakistan and if there is a bit of it, it has been pushed to the wall. Just check which intelligentsia your media normally invites for commenting on critical issues? You will find reasons to make an appropriate conclusion.
Regards,
Kamran.
- Odyssee - 09-24-2009
Sir,
The 'Slave or follower' explanation provided by you has given me some excellent food for thought. I would definitely try to a have deeper look into this matter.
I must confess that at the moment I do not have any living person in my mind whom I can call as a true intellectual. But when I talk of Intelligentsia; the sort of people I have in my mind are the likes of Ahmed Shah Bokhari also known as Patras Bokhari. A person on whose demise even the New York Times wrote
<i>"Occasionally we have been blessed with the presence of some individual, who could give human form to our abstractions. We have just lost such a person in the untimely death of Prof. Ahmed S. Bokhari, diplomat from Pakistan, who served as chief of information in the United Nations. He was, in the best sense, a citizen of the world."</i>
<i>"...a great human being, witty, urbane, philosophical and immensely warm of heart. He was free from ostentation or vanity. He loved life and the people in it, regardless of their background of nationality, race, religion or occupation. His spirit, like his mind, knew no narrow frontiers."</i>
<i>"The world, today, is poorer for the passing of a man who gave us a better insight into what good things are possible in a better future."</i>
Citizen of the world,Editorial by The New York Times,December 7, 1958
I agree that as a nation we need to find the strength within to deal with all the obstacles rather than waiting for some sort of messiah or a foreign force to solve our problems.
What I have learned from this discussion is that self-correction and self-improvement is vital in order to eliminate the failings of our society. We need to change ourselves first before desiring change in others. The following quotation is meant to emphasize this point
"When I was young and free and my imagination had no limit, I dreamed of changing the world. As I grew older and wiser, I discovered the world would not change, so I shortened my sights somewhat and decide to change only my country. But it, too seemed immovable . As I grew into my twilight years, in one last desperate attempt, I settled for changing only my family, those closest to me , But alas, they would have none of it. As now as I lie on my deathbed, I suddenly realize If I had only changed myself first, then by example I would have changed my family. From their inspiration and encouragement, I would then have been able to better my country and, Who knows, I may have been changed the world." - Anonymous
Sir, I would like to thank you for providing very thoughtful and inspiring answers to my questions. I am very glad and honored for having this discussion with you.
Regards
P.S On a lighter note, I would thank Dr. Awan, without whom this discussion would not have been possible.
- kamranACA - 09-24-2009
Odyssee
Mr. Bukhari had been a learned man but unfortunately you named a person who has passed away. I was expecting this name along with a few other names like Sir Syed Ahmed, Ashfaq Ahmad, Mumtaz Mufti, Qudratullah Shahab, Faiz Ahmed Faiz or Habib Jalib etc, all of whom have left us. I said there is no intelligentsia in Pakistan. Let us don't say in a combined voice, "Pidar-e-Mann Sultaan Bood".
I don't feel a need to discuss the acheivements of such renowned persons in detail with specific reference to the question under consideration.
The few names which can currently be quoted are Mustansar Hussain Tarrar, Anwar Maqsood, Dr. Waseem Ahmed, Rasool Bakhsh Palejo, and Aitezaz Ahsan along with some other names like Tariq Azeez who are not active enough to play any role. However, these have either been deliberately engaged in non-productive activities by the circumstances or they personally avoid to do what is required of them.
I hope you will not be interested in having a detailed chit chat on these or similar personalities.
You must be seeing the currently available intelligentsia which oftenly appears on TV channels that includes Gen. Hameed Gul. Gen. Nasir Javed, Gen. Asad Durrani, Col. Imam, Gen. Aslam Baig and few other generals and colonels. Do you feel our army can produce a single intellectual?
Other examples are of a few politicians who are the by-product of entirely a corrupt system. Do you feel our politics can produce a single intellectual?
Alas! we at large believe them to be the major pillars of our itelligentsia, on which, all the thought provoking process is supposed to be based.
At the end, the residual of our intelligentsia is found in Journalists. Again, Alas!!! Let me keep my mouth shut about them.
Do you wish to hear something else about intelligentsia? I think the above is enough for having a broad understanding.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- Odyssee - 09-25-2009
Sir,
I do not believe that our army and the political system in our country can produce a single intellectual. Our army has itself been the reason for majority of our country's problems. We already know the role of our army in the politics as well as business activities of our country through books such as "Military Inc.", so I don't feel the need to further comment on it.
As far as our political system is concerned, I have already made it quite clear that I do not expect any good from the prevalent political system in our country. Though there are a few exceptions such as Aitezaz Ahsan, for whom I have tremendous respect, but we have all witnessed how he has been sidelined from an active role in politics.
I am interested in learning more about some of the renowned names you have mentioned and I would definitely read more of their contributions. But, what I am more interested to know is that why is it that the intellectuals (only the select few whom you consider as intellectuals) are not playing an active role in the development of our society? Have they lost hope? or are they themselves beneficiaries of the current system? To be honest, as a society we are hypocrites. Are our intellectuals hypocrites as well?
Regards
- kamranACA - 09-25-2009
Odyssee
When we say that we don't have any intellectual in Pakistan it does not mean that brains are not being produced or the thought cultivation process has been stopped some where.
The lamers appearing on media (TV, websites, newspapers) are ex-army officials, so-called pillars of establishment, blackmailing journalists and on some fronts failed politicians and a few Maulanas who feel somewhat deprived of the BANDER BAANT process benefiting others like them. These people are given utmost prominance since their entertainers know they will never speak unbiased truth and will always portray what a specific need of time calls for. Unfortunately, majority of us believe them to be heros, focal point for creating a cohesive thought and a ray of hope. This strengthens them further and they keep on being accepted as intellectuals.
As far as some others are concerned, they either have a different preference for expression of their intellect abilities, or lack the critic's attitude or had remained dependent upon the parallel system of corruption which ultimately reduced their voice to minimal and pushed them to the thin corner of existence.
I don't allege such positive mindsets for anything but the circumstances have maligned their abilities or made them far more concerned for their own problems and issues which eventually resulted in maaking them quite ineffective. Most of them are fighting the war of their own existence. Further, as we knowingly elect the corrupts and at so many locations ignore the right contestants, we also knowingly ignore the positive voice of such pressurized brains.
At last but not least, our variant religious schools of thought have accidentally proved to be the biggest negative point and obstacle in our development and thought provoking process. We are not united on any single facet of life. Some-how we have based our every quest on the FACT that this is a temporary world and we have to eventually leave it. We never try to understand that what the temporary world means in fact and what social duties and obligations our religion imposes on us. The one who will be made to learn from the childhood that you are here for few days, you have to die so soon, and you need not to waste your time on worldly matters and issues so forth and so on. My God, what he will create, develope, polish and convey to others for the benefits of the times to come and for the people of the times to come.
Odyssee, don't ask me more my brother; we cannot have inteligentsia even in future.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- awaisaftab - 09-26-2009
Unfortunately Lotaism is too common in our politics. Firdous Aashiq Awan was elected on the ticket of PML-Q in 2002 election. But in 2007 she joined PPP. I think she belongs from Gujranwala or Sialkot. Unfortunately Bradryism is also very common in our country she won the election with the help of her Bradry.
D.I Khan is not the part of punjab but here majority of population is Saraiki speaking.In rural areas of punjab bradryism is too common. Maulana Fazal ur Rehman has no influence in punjab. He polluted whole MMA. .But Jamate Islami is only party of lower middle class that have some presense in Punjab. In 2002 election JI even won the one seat of Islamabad. Here the main tie was between Dr. Babar Awan of PPP (Now He is Senator and often seen on TV Channels) and Mian Mohammad Asalam of MMA (JI). In the election Mian Aslam defeated Babar Awan by a margin of more than 20,000 votes. In this election Zafar Ali Shah of PML-N got only around 4000 votes.
After general election Babar Awan became senator and usually people do not know that he is a DEFEATED personality on the hands of MIAN MUHMMAD ASLAM. On the event when Mian Aslam won the election from Islamabad then international media highlighted this news as breaking news that one religious party has won a seat from Islamabad.
Babar Awan is a talktive person and has made his place in TV Channels. Contrarily Mian Aslam is not talktive person.Media also do not disclose this fact that Babar Awan badly defeated in 2002 election. Babar Awan is a clever person some year ago no one knows about him.
In 2002 in by election of NA-56 of Rawalpindi Haneef Abbasi of JI defeated nephew of Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed.
- kamranACA - 09-26-2009
Dears,
I know commenting on any specific political or religious party will start a new debate but it is likely to be mentioned for record that none of the election conducted in the presence of army rule was or is un-biased.
MMA (or other Maulanas) could never and can never and will never win any election as a majority party. I don't discuss a few accidental wins. If some one has any ambiguity in his mind he should study the results from 1947. May God bless you all long and healthy lives; this will remain a fact till 2047 and even in perpetuity.
None of the elections since Zia regime has been conducted honestly and without the involvement of rigging. The major part of responsibility, I agree, falls on the shoulders of citizens since we are the ones who knowingly keep our mouths shut.
I, somewhere in my mind, have been wishing that may the Maulanas win in some election with clear majority, so that the people can get all the required clarifications practically. Alas, this never happened and this will never happen.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
- awaisaftab - 09-27-2009
I do not want to comment on the election in other areas of the country but in Islamabad it is very difficult to do rigging in election. There are many reasons due to which any Govt cant do it in Islamabad but I dont want to discuss these reasons. My political knowledge is somehow limited to Rawalpindi and Islamabad politics.
But I believe if Nawaz Sharif and Shebaz Sharif goes from politics then the whole right side vote will go in the pocket of religious parties specially in the urban areas of Punjab as we have seen in Lahore, Gujranwala, Sialkot, Bhawalpur, Texila and Muree in 2002 elections.
Regards,
Awais Aftab
- kamranACA - 09-27-2009
Dear
By the way people like Shaukat Azeez also won 2002 (although a bit later) elections. The people who won in 2002 will never come on surface unless the strategy of a dictator will call for a need to utilize them for certain reasons. We can't quote 2002 as an example.
Nawaz shareef family in fact came on screen after the demise of Zia although Nawaz had earlier been elected (in fact selected) as Chief Minister Punjab in Junejo regime (in fact Zia regime).
These votes have never gone to the pocket of Maulanas even before the times of Nawaz's popularity. So, these will also not go to them even if NML disappears again.
I just remind that in the history of Pakistan whenever these Maulanas have won some seats that was merely the result of some rigging or conspiracy of external or internal factors.
The only one family that had been winning seats since inception is of Mufti Mahmood's family (now Maulana Fazal ur Rehman). Other some examples are of NWFP. However, a bit of fair elections bring ANP or PPP in power even in NWFP. In Sindh JI remained popular (at Karachi only) but emergence of MQM in Zia regime practically closed JI's chapter in Karachi for ever (at least for foreseeable future times).
Still, if you feel they are popular, I have no issue with your feeling and belief.
Regards,
Kamran.