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High Court Notice of ICAP/CA FIRM Malpractice - Printable Version

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- an_aamir - 05-25-2010

AOA, thank you for your interest in this case

Well! Many persons misunderstood the issue. I am not against the late sittings and working during overtime hours. I believe, sometimes late sittings are healthy for professional development. Simply in my point of view, these late sittings and overtimes must be compensated either in the form of credit leaves or in monetary terms for many good reasons and most importantly because it is the requirement of training contract. It is all about the right not any favor being a student.

I know many qualified accountants in practice may not be agreed with me because they think that this tough training make worthy professionals. I suggest them to request the Council to update the Byelaws accordingly (for example extending the training period, extending hours per week from 40 to 80, etc.) rather to find unfair means of implementing their damn brilliant ideas for the training of students and humiliate them.

Best regards,
Aamir Manzoor

- bizmen - 05-25-2010

In my opinion, the issue is not the overtime, late sittings or payments. The main issue is the feeling of 'Exploitation'. This is the culture in Pakistan, you are bound to do whatever you are asked, you cannot change the firm or (as they say) your career is over. How can a trainee who is working in any Big 4, take the risk to refuse anything? This norm and practice should be stopped but I guess, in most of the cases, extra burden is demanded by 'Seniors' and 'Managers' and not by 'Partners'. The same Junior who has once been a victim continues the same practice with his juniors and this never ends. I never remember a partner asking me to work till late night and if he ever did, in extremely rare cases, that is because the manager or supervisor is telling him that more work is required. I have observed many supervisors and seniors involved in 'Gup Shup' during the first half and the second half is also not full time work. The same amount of work done in 16-18 hours can be performed in 8 hours if properly utilized.

Without any reference to Amir Manzoor, I do agree that the practice of late sittings and overtime should be stopped but I believe this can be done by Senior Trainees and Managers...Not the Partners or the Firm.


- Nav33d - 06-18-2010

the decission from the court should come in favour of the students, as most of the firms are exploiting CA students by doing overtime work without overtime payment. If the decission is not come in favour of the student then all the firms would start to practice overtime in thier firms. Also as discussed above by someone else that it would reduce the intake of trainee students, the ICAP should fix a specific quota for the firms that they will take trainee stuednts in a single attempt otherwise the future of CA students will be destroyed by ICAP....

- kamranACA - 06-19-2010

The matter is subjudiced in LHC and it's unwise to say that bala bala should be the decision. Courts are independent and justice should be expected. However, I am least hopeful for the trainee since it is not a matter to be governed by Labor laws on which lawyers do fight every day.

In my very much personal view firms should arrange proper mealing and official entertainment provisions while students sit late on various assignments. They should be paid somewhat travelling allowance if not allowed to leave on due time. If overtime is not to be paid, at least credit hours should be given and enhanced exam leaves should be allowed in easier days. This is the way to motivate the students.

As said by others late sittings should be avoided and a culture should be changed which is needed to be contributed by every one.

Students who are affected by firms' practices should reconsider joining/continuing with such firms based upon a fair judgment of the need of late sittings and the way they are compensated and the comparison with other practices in the market.

If needed NOC can be obtained and firm can be changed. There is no room for acting like HEROs in the firms (sorry if sounds hard) and this is what we witnessed in whole of our careers. Why? Because trainees have to get something from firms and they are the prime beneficiaries.

Firms are scarce and trainees are in abundance. The thing the supply of which exceeds its demand is always found to be cheaply available in market. Firms have heaps of CVs in their waiting-list files ranging from qualified people in various disciplines to part qualified ones and the ones who wish to join trainings under different streams. There is no such HEAP in the files of any trainee student. If I am saying wrong, let me correct please. So, one should judge his position, trade offs, other practices and everything before taking a step. That's why nothing is expected out of the case being discussed here.

These are economic facts regardless of whatever speeches we deliver in the name of professionalism and humanity etc.

I personally have no hopes for the case being discussed since it is based on heroic stance instead of any reasonable legal/well witnessed/supported grounds.

In general, I believe there is no room for heroic stance in firms. Heroes are usually found doing their personal businesses afterwards.


- noman - 06-19-2010

i guess what mr. kamran is saying is that...
the rule is 'survival of the fittest' everyone got to bear with it....either become the fittest or suffer at the hands of the fittest...

professionalism, ethics, morals are not of any weightage when compared to economics of any matter..

its plain and simple

- kamranACA - 06-19-2010

Survival of the fittest is a universal truth the denial of which will not serve any purpose to any one.

However, here the issue is much complex. Here professional work, contract, mentor/trainee relationship (ustaad/shaagird), mutual understanding and dependence, reliance, reverence and respect every thing has its involvement in one way or other.

I see here one member said that "its right and not a favor". While saying this he might have forgotton that "favor" starts from the day he is intaken in the firm. So many fittest might have been ignored when such a favor is given. When you learn a word from your mentor (senior, manager, partner whoever), the favor starts for which you cannot pay back for the entire life time. And favor starts when you are given an environment which makes you what you are supposed to be. I know when people join firms, they don't even know alphabets. This environment of course has to be as per firm's level and the differences among firms is not an issue since a firm joined by student reflects his own decision.

So if we come on to count favors we will enlist a long detail. Similarly the reverence, understanding, hardwork, obedience, discipline and positive attitude of trainees is what can pay back for the "favors"; otherwise it is impossible.

So, these all motivational and ethical speeches are fine till the time mutual respect remains un-affected. Once this is put behind, then DAURNAY KO MAIDAAN SAB KAY LIYE AIK JAISA HOTA HAI; means survival of the fittest and brutal economic factors will play their role.

You try to apply it even at your very much personalized life back at homes and you will find same conclusions.

People have all the right to dis-agree. We in our daily life see the cases where sons go to courts against their real fathers. So, its not a point of discussion.

As far as motivational benefits and training regulations are concerned, I am of the confirmed view that the requirements should be met in the sense these are desired. There are no two opinions.

I hope you all can understand what I wanted to say besides explaining the truth of survival of the fittest.


- noman - 06-19-2010

would you care to explain to us how does the training go about in the advanced countries??

i mean what kind of contract (training or employment) is given to the trainees in those countries?

whether labour laws are applicable on the trainees there?

anything like minimum remuneration/stipend for trainees in those countries?

regulation of firms by the professional bodies, specifically relating to training/mentoring etc

since everything done in our country is like 20-50 years behind what the advanced countries are if you tell us those things we can anticipate what will happen here in 20-30 years time..

- kamranACA - 06-20-2010

Practices could be found quite different at different places. I may be wrong but firmly believe that stipend has no linkage with minimum pay, yet this concept is prevelant in other countries and till date this is also being complied indirectly in Pak. I dont find a significant issue between 6500 and 7000 and this 500 increase does not mean anything.

Further, dont mind to remember that yet the Budget is in a proposal phase.

As far as what other advanced countries are doing has nothing to do with us and we have to live with what we have been gifted. If some one is inspired of advanced countries, he can take a flight. Doing so has also a lot of trade offs.

I agree and find nothing hestitation to agree that things should be corrected over the period, yet this correction does not ONLY revolve around stipend thingy. In my view correction starts from our ownselves and if we will think on it we will find lots of things very much important than this stipend issue which we don't even look at.

I have a habit to produce checklists in my daily routine work and if this self assessment is required every one can prepare a checklist.

Stipend has increased from Rs. 1100 (our times) to Rs 6500 in your times (although it is still a stipend) and yet it may increase to minimum wage announced. I tend to avoid calling it minimum wages since I know CA intermediates are supposedly disgraced if we apply minimum wage to their professional competence. Stipend is much appropriate word and concept. You can differ.

Still if it matters a lot, students can take up their point at appropriate forum and things may improve over time.


- kamranACA - 06-28-2010


I liked your posts by the way. Your questions are very basic and at so many times reflect a genuine feeling arising from the core of heart.

The behavior of your managers at some areas does not appear to be too professional honestly speaking, yet I believe this is one side's snap. The firms should compensate their students for their extra effort by some means, and these "some means" are defined in training regulations. There are no two opinions. So, here I am not opposing anything which you are complaining. I wonder why you are compelled to sit so late; and even if it is done, why you are not being compensated by some means. You should discuss this matter with the management without losing the level of respect and I hope it can serve a purpose.

My firm never did these things with us when we were students. This may be a lack of observation at our part or our extra loyalty with the firm that never let us to feel any deficiency pertaining to our rights. You can also say that might they have done something but our motive was not to concentrate on these areas. Rather we knew our objective and we concentrated more on that area instead of singing classical saga of rights and duties. We might be wrong but I am writing what has happened. This is not to disgrace you, rather is a food for thought.

You are wishing the stipend to be Rs. 10,000 per month so that it can cover inter-alia the travelling cost. I wonder if any of students at a good firm would be getting any materially lower figure than this 10,000 when their travelling bills are reimbursed with the stipend. Anyway, this is not the point which I wish to discuss. I oftenly say that complaining is easier than correcting ourselves. Your firm may not be right, your stipend may not be sufficient BUT if you qualify your E and F module in time, you will certainly get the increase which you are perceiving to be sufficient. I think you should pay more attention to achieve that target.

When I discussed increase in stipend from 1100 to 6500, it was to discuss inflationary increase. I mentioned that still it is a stipend. Personally I don’t feel that this stipend should be converted to salary, yet people might have different views and I tend to honor every one’s feeling. However, everyone who is module D can increase his stipend by his own effort. This is the area where students never pay any attention.

As far as MA Economics is concerned I think the action of your firm is correct. You cannot engage in such studies without the consent of your firm. To the top of all other things, to me such actions by CA students, convey a message that they are not sincere to their objective i.e. completing CA. You can differ to my view point but the thing I am telling you is a fact. Again you don't know what you are complaining about. When you will be doing MAs instead of your CA, how will you get your stipend increased? Again food for thought. I daily see the students who are engaged in CA studies and never get through CA exams, they keep on grousing about late sittings and stiff conditions; but at the same time engage their-selves in MAs and MBAs sort of things and qualify those exams regardless of same bottle-necks being faced. What is this? This is simply lack of interest for their core profession, absence of genuine effort and dishonesty with their own-selves and their families. Believe you me the one who is engaged in CA studies/training and is simultaneously doing some MA sort of thing, He is making a heartless and dishonest effort for his CA career that is his primary goal. Time will come when you will feel the meanings of my words.

You must not forget that choosing CA has not been imposed on you. You outrightly knew the associated hardships, difficulties and stiff training requirements. You also at the outset knew the stipend rates as well. You know you entered into a contract after knowing everything deeply. Where I did not argue against the points raised by you about your firm’s behavior (assuming them to be correct), I also cannot accept your version on this point being grounded on faulty basis. It is strange if you now start comparing Rs. 20,000 and grousing about the family financial issues. You should have evaluated this all before stepping in and should have taken a right decision at the outset. Did you not know what will you be getting while joining CA training?

If your family needed you to earn Rs 20,000 per month or Rs. 1,200 per days (as you compared) then why you joined this training at all. This all is the product of a confused thought. Our students don’t know what life requires from them, what they wish to achieve, what is their own objective and target; and start complaining about life and about others. To me, this again shows lack of interest, and objectivity. Students usually are seen extremely worrying about everything that is spanning MERELY over a very short tenure of 3 years, but totally ignoring the goals which they need to achieve within these 3 years on which your life has to base.

Buddy, I don’t mean to hurt your sentiments, but feel like making you to realize that the life is tough; economic realities are always there; what is going on at our homes is always known to us; and the people can vary in whatever they are putting in and taking out at their jobs; yet, survival at every corner is only for the fittest, and one has to undergo all problems, difficulties and issues to achieve his target. Therefore, you need to focus on your target and ignore the impediments and obstacles you are facing. We can change ourselves, if we fail to change the world.

Hoping you a best career.



- aimaad22 - 07-02-2010

I see that one person here is a student while the other one probably is a senior person in a firm. So you are on opposisite sides of the table and so have very differet views, so I suggest you take that into account. However Kamran Bhai has also been through what we are undergoing so we should pay special attention to his advice.

I think there is no doubt some firms are very harsh with students, I have now heard countless example of it. I hope this is a trend that will change with time. We can be the ones to drive this change when inshAllah we become experienced professionals.

However I agree that we should not expect firms to take care of our financial difficulties. If they are holding back the stipend that is very wrong, but apart from paying stipend on time they cannot do much.

- kamranACA - 07-02-2010


I do not write anything with a prejudiced mind owing to my current capacity or position. If you can find something which I might have written 9-10 years back, you will not find anything different than what currently is being conveyed.

I know when talking to a student, I need to come to his level. That's why I told him my personal story of the times when I was a student.

Hadeedian will realize the depth of my words once he will pass through this phase.


- Dard - 07-12-2010

Agreed that there are many CVs pending in the offices of firms, but that doesn't mean those who are selected should be exploited. It doesn't mean the managers can do whatever they want to because they know there is no other alternative for the trainee, except for leaving! Ethics is part of a qualification, which is not followed in this case

- hadeedian - 07-13-2010

and due to such exploitation, i m leaving firm after completing my 13 months of registered training.... and gonna change my field.... This ICAP and firms are simply pathetic.....
Exploitation..... Exploitation..... Just Exploitation

- hadeedian - 07-13-2010

one thing more..... at the end of such exploitation, what do we get? i mean after getting qualified, how much salary? not more than 60 or 70 thousand.... there are others fields available which require less "Khuwari" and eventually yield more rewards......
F**K ICAP and Firms.....
i don't know why Pakistani Aawaam is going crazy for such a pathetic field.....

- hadeedian - 07-13-2010

And tell me, how many qualified or Adverse opinions are given despite the enormous and uncontrollable corruptions going on specially in institutions like Steel Mills, PIA, KESC, WAPDA etc.... These retarded firms and ICAP does not have courage and 'BALLS' to issue an adverse audit report despite the fact that whole nation is suffering from corruption.... I joined CA because i thought things would be just as fair as they seem in books....BUT... regretfully, ICAP and these Firms are the ones who are converting black money into white money by giving unqualified reports...

let me tell u, if ICAP and these 5000 retarded chartered accountants start doing the same as written in their books, our country would be amongst the top 10 nations in the world by not more than 20 years... but if they start doing "true & fair" practice as written in their own laws, these firms think that they will lose their client.... how pathetic..... ridiculous... sham on these firms