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+--- Thread: High Court Notice of ICAP/CA FIRM Malpractice (/showthread.php?tid=7860)
- kamranACA - 07-13-2010
Dard
Buddy you are perhaps unaware of the things you are talking about; so wait, let the time come, go through the phases and then make out your opinions.
No one is exploiting any one and the people always TAKE OUT MORE THAN WHAT THEY PUT IN during this phase of life. This is my confirmed opinion, a positive snap, and a feeling that is based upon not only my experience of life but also on the exposure of my family members who are also CAs, family friends, professional friends and others.
At the same time if we look at other picture, we can see that everyone is exploiting the other and everyone is concerned for ONLY his benefit. When it comes to me, I call it "objective", "question of career", "my future" etc but if similar thing is on some other's shoulders, I tend to call it "lack of ethics", "exploitation" etc. So, this is "me" who is judge. One is said to be a best judge for his own-self but typically the fairness and logic vanishes in most of the cases when one is his own judge. Mind it; whenever this is "me" who is judge, and the fairness is dropped out, things will look in the way I wish to look them. When this is "me" who has to judge in such a way then everything appears as per image I create or my circumstances create in my mind. I believe I need not to go in further details and you will understand it without doing so.
You know, we see the INNOCENT students daily who are always so deep, unpredictable and extremely vibrant for their benefit ONLY that they lay off every single practice of ethics and moral values which they preach for the firms. Just one example; many times a student pressurizes the firm with 10s of references for an entry and/or he is entertained for the sake of his desperation to find out place in ANY firm; he is interviewed, inducted and trained (believe you me at many occasions just to save his future). As soon as he finds a place in EVEN a bit better firm, he jumps out forgetting how out of the way he was entertained by the firm when he was frustrated. The firms can stop them doing so, simply by giving a phone call to other members in practice; but you will not see a single case where this has been done by the firms. There are so many examples which can be quoted regarding the so-called ethics of students as well. Firms find such instances in routine and at most of times simply ignore them because it's the matter of a student who has to undergo many phases.
So, as I said, if it is "me" who has to be the judge (with a prejudiced mind) then justice is also the one that is visible to "me" only and same would be the saga of ethics, moral values, exploitation, and what not and what not.
I normally don't tend to go in details of this issue because I believe a variety of behaviors, cultures and practices have to continue for all the times. We all are humans, the people who can differ due to personality differences, past personalized experiences and mindsets developed over the times pursuant to the culture, society and experience we are subject to on individual basis in different phases of life.
Ultimately, whatever someone is doing is aimed at to achieve one's targets (again personal objective and benefit) so, a student should focus on his target and take the positioning to develop his career in a best possible manner keeping in view all those ethics which he loves to preach for others. Self assessment and clarity of the objective is extremely important. One should make efforts to remain honest, sincere, focused, robust and ethical to a maximum extent he can do.
If one feels that hardworking, pressure facing, making extraordinary efforts etc is unethical at the part of firms then he should better leave the profession since this profession is known for it. Crying for stipends, 60 or 70 thousand salary is nothing but a way to find refuge from the personal misconceived future career. One does not know few months back what he will be getting after being a CA and this has unfolded at once, when he decided to leave the profession. I at the outset said that the people who raise these questions are devoid of logic, objectivity and the essence of achieving their targets.
We understand that grapes of a highly demanding career (that requires extra ordinary efforts) are usually sour for all those who don't have height to capture the branches carrying such fruit of future elevation. We usually donât measure ourselves and try to adjust where we cannot. You can see a student around you who always took 3rd division (lowest marks) throughout his career and in his imagination always sees himself to be a doctor or engineer or chartered accountant etc. Most of such people imprudently join the fields that do not suit to their abilities and ultimately leave it abusing the environment and circumstances and declaring such situation as the cause of their failure. They will design a hundred thousand reasons to beat about the bush but will never THROUGHOUT their career make any unified effort to achieve something. I place on record that this observation is very much generalized and is not focused on any member or poster of this forum at all.
I said earlier that first of all the career must be selected with a thoughtful mind and based upon assessment of oneâs own capabilities, practices and economic situation. Secondly, for CA training, one should be very careful for selecting a firm and should find out the required details and watch carefully if he can survive in the culture firm is offering. At the end, if in any case a firm is not up to the mark and one finds some severe reservations (however correct or incorrect these reservations may be) the student can get an NOC and find out a new firm with better prospects. However, I personally believe that it is a student who has to mold himself as per environment ultimately. So, it is better if such adoption is practiced at the outset.
This is the matter of one's interior how he wishes to comment on it. By the way you will not see any firm abusing the students on internet forums. Just a food for thought to analyze the ethics being preached.
I hope the people who wish to concentrate on what they want to do can get a few beneficial messages after reading the above sentences. Otherwise no one is ever bothered to even give an ear to the grouses people raise without a logic or defendable reason.
Regards,
- hadeedian - 07-14-2010
Dear Mr Kamran
Just for your information, I completed CA inter in FIRST ATTEMPT......
- hadeedian - 07-14-2010
Dear Mr Kamran
The way you say that i was not capable for this field and my decision for CA was just an illusion or i am a FOX who says grapes are sour because i can not reach them, so let me tell you that i cleared all the modules in first attempt. The principal reason behind leaving this profession is my financial crisis and second reason for leaving this profession is "Exploitation". Third reason for leaving this career is not getting selected in BIG 10 firms because i did not have any reference and the fourth reason for leaving this profession is decreasing trend of salaries for CAs in Pakistan.. why should i do so much hard work without money when i know i will end up not more than 50 thousand. "agr faaltu ki mehant krnay ka etna hi shook hey tu mey kyo na Quran or Hadees ki taleem hasil kr lun, at least i would be better off in my ultimate second life.
Mr Kamran... in this world, we do hard work just to earn. okay....
There are plenty of fields available which will yield much more good results with less hard work and without any exploitation.
After doing 13 months of article ship, i developed hatred for my profession because of malpractice done by firms. These firms do not have even balls to qualify audit report of "Mosque" despite the open corruption and irregularities in financial statement. Yes, I have seen such things with my own eyes during my training. I used to love Chartered Accountancy like "Ranjha" loved his "Heer" and that LOVE is the only reason i cleared Module C and Module D in first attempt on self study basis without taking any tuition but now there is no respect in my heart for this profession whose prime work is to convert black money into white money..
Mr Kamran !
Just answer my one question.... Just one question,,, i sincerely request you please...
Why you people don't have courage to issue adverse opinions specially for institutions like Steel Mills or PIA etc... aik doodh peta bacha b jaanta hey k en institutions k andr kitni corruption hey, lekn aap chartered accountants aandhay kyo hein?
Why you chartered accountants get so blind doing audits of such corrupted entities?
Please answer me...
Thanks
- kamranACA - 07-14-2010
Hadeedian
I specifically mentioned in my post that those comments were not for any member of this forum. I do understand your frustration and know what you wish to express. That's why from the outset I am only wasting my time to bring you on track. Otherwise, I am not obliged to do it.
However, I am of confirmed opinion that if your financial position was not supportive, it is your own problem (not of any body else) and if you feel CAs are not earning handsome you should have assessed at the outset and still you have fullest right to change your path and learn Quran and Hadees or choose some other lucrative field. If the firm was not good you did have a right to change it. Everything has its solution; however, there is no solution to misconceptions and wrong self-assessments.
You are too young to decide whose audit report should be disclaimed or qualified or given adverse remarks. Believe you me you are none of the authority not only for your position but also for your expsoure and understanding level. Doing CA Inter in first attempts is good but not an arrow towards skies. Mind it; we have gold medalist people who always bow their heads for the blessings of Allah and name their successes to the guidance and role modeling of their seniors. I name my all successes in life to the character and guidance of my seniors. I know those all from whom I learnt anything in life were the real blessed people. People here get many gold medals but remain humble and never call in question the BALLS (or similar yelling) of the profession and their "spirtual fathers". These "BALLS" produce people like you. Did you ever see any one rising without a mentor, a teacher, a spirtual father??? You should revisit your attitude; the attitude I am trying to point out since inception. You, believe you me, don't have depth, courage, and patience to do CA which opinion emerges based upon your posts. This attitude will not make you successful on ay corner of the world and in any field of life. Eventually somewhere you will have to accept the strength of your spirtual fathers and somewhere you will have to be adoptable. I am not criticisng you; rather like an elder brother, I am trying to convince you for the right track. I am saying it for some solid reasons. Adverse opinion is not something out of the world. I am witness of many reports for this latest year where adverse opinions have been issued by firms. There are a number of modified opinions as well. Yet, for giving adverse opinion none of the firms require your guidance. I would again say that you are TOO young to conclude such things. I don't and can't ask you to change your style or questions but if you will keep on doing it, it will ruine none but you and people will laugh at you.
I don't argue that there can be malpractices on all spheres of life; yet, just like a bad muslim does not make Islam bad (Naoozbillah), some bad people cannot render the whole profession bad. You should not pass absolute comments. A student should remain focused, humble, easy going, adoptable, and sincere. Where such quality would lack, it will lead to the things which you use to write on this forum.
If you have changed your filed I wish you best of luck in the new attempt and if you have not so far done so, I advise you to change your mindset and improve your attitude.
Nothing is imposed and you are obviously indepedent in your decisions, behavior and whatever thoughts you wish to crop up.
Regards,
- Dard - 07-14-2010
Just because someone is professionally junior doesn't mean the junior is always wrong and you say to him "you are still too young to understand". We have understanding too. When most PpL say the same thing, there has to be some truth in it.
Mr.Kamran Sir, maybe at the times you did your articleship, it was different. Now it's different
As far as your mentioning of student desperation by references is concerned, reference is a neccessity these these day
- hadeedian - 07-15-2010
I am not at all disrespecting any of my mentor or teacher. I am just mentioning the scenario of Pakistan and general practices done by firms.
Mr Kamran
The most of the things you say are absolutely right in a sense that in our country nothing will ever change. The one who speak against this ridiculous system is cornered off. You are right if i do not change this behavior, I wont be able to survive in this system. And you can not say a single word against your profession because i know your limitations. As long as you are depicting the thoughts of your so called rulers, you are well off and your survival is guaranteed and the day you speak against this system, your future gets Bleak....
Now you are part of this profession, you will always speak in its favor, and you have to, because its your survival. Not at a single place in this whole thread, i saw your any comment accepting any matter against your profession. You have always defended your profession with general rules and theories but has never accepted the ground realities.
I ask you on the behalf of general Pakistani public and not as a CA student or trainee... Just put your hand on your Heart and answer to this nation.....
1. Kya CA profession responsible hey for legalizing all the corruption in this country?
2. Kya agr ye 5000 Pakistani Chartered Accountants honesty say kaam karein without any fear, tu kya hamaray country say corruption khatam nahi ho skti?
3. Each and every entity and sector is get audited by these firms, tu agr hm chartered accountants true and fair practice start kr dein tu kya Pakistan ki kismat nahi badal skti?
4. Whole world knows that Pakistan is one of the most corrupted nation but why this is not reflected in our audit reports?
Sir Kamran
Please i need your answers in YES or NO, this nation does not need any theory, long explanations or stories... Just answer in Yes or No.... Just place your hand on your heart and answer.
I feel enormous pain for my country, for my nation and for the ones who saw dreams for this nation and eventually created this country but OUR SYSTEM DOES NOT REFLECT THEIR DREAMS.....
It has been 63 years, and some one has to answer or we will be lost forever.....
Thanks
- hadeedian - 07-15-2010
I invite all the others on this forum to please provide your valuable comments specially on the above questions....
- Nauman - 07-16-2010
Dont want to get into this argument but just for the record a qualified opinion does not mean that corruption is exposed. You have to understand that audit is done within confines of laws, regulations and standards we are not supposed to be the moral police of this nation. As it is said all over the world, auditor is a Watch Dog not a Blood Hound )
- kamranACA - 07-16-2010
Dard
The one who is junior or short in experience is a junior and short in experience. There is nowhere to run of universal truths. However, juniors can be correct in some specific observations but not in such broader allegations. The experience of my life tells that in majority of cases this is only our own misunderstanding which portrays the things incorrectly to our eyes. Saying this does not mean that I am too senior; no, I am also in the phase of learning and I believe it is a life time process. Yet, the difference in each stage of life counts and there is no alternative of experience at all.
I also believe that time remains same always, and nothing has changed in fact; there is only a need of having strength to find and accept what is what.
Let us discuss the changes you feel time has posed with its passage. What the all grouses are about? Stipend? Excessive working hours? Stiff conditions? Pressures? etc etc etc....... Brother, do you just dare to take a glimpse of any other "PROFESSIONAL CAREER" in Pakistan as well as in the world? I mean Engineering, Medicine, Science and research, Armed forces, Games or whatever. I am talking about professional career. CA is not a simple academic study; it's one of the stiffest professional careers at least in Pakistan. Look at how difficult are conditions and trainings of other professionals as well, and how meager they are paid DESPITE the fact that they are also among the most elevated beings in a society.
Do you know what stipend is paid to MBBS doctors during their house job and those vigorous night shifts and hard disgracing conditions they face besides studying for their MLE or FCPS etc in similar days? Until too recent time it was Rs. 6,000 pm. (I donât know current rate). If you figure out, you will conclude that a mason or some skillful mechanic or technician can earn more than an MBBS house-job trainee as well. This is not only in Pakistan, rather even at UK or other European countries, situation is same. Do you know what trainee lawyers earn in Pakistan during compulsory training required by Bar Associations before giving them a license to practice? Have you any idea of training environment of professional army officers? Their trainers who are far below than the designation of a commissioned officer earn far better than trainee cadets and freshly commissioned second lieutenants. Do you feel they are doing some JEHAD with their lives? No, all around the world joining Army means joining a professional career. Do you know what they have to put in for being such a professional? I am sorry to say EVEN THEIR LIVES.
Every professional study and career is similar in its conditions. It needs extreme dedication, courage and sincerity and it is not running for your families and earning bread and butter for them. If you feel a mason can earn better bread and butter than a trainee then you are totally wrong; why donât you opt to be a mason or mechanic? Just because your goal is bigger. For getting elevation you have to sacrifice. Do you know what takes to become even a mason or mechanic? Again a stiff training and learning. Do you know what those trainees get who opt to become a Mason or Mechanic. What are you talking about and what the guys compare. I just laugh sometimes. People don't even realize what they have written.
Itâs good for registered students if ICAP increases this amount further, yet, it is not the purpose or objective of your doing CA at all and it will create harder times for new ones to come and join the firms because economics is everywhere and managing oneâs resources and applications is every oneâs basic right.
I believe whoever worries about stipend should worry about his study, because this is the best shortcut to get your stipends increased swiftly. Why students never think on it. I remember, those were ONLY few months when I got the lowest slab of stipend at my time just because I adopted this shortcut. I also believe that whoever worries about the difficulties of training environment, pressures, excessive workload etc during this meager amount of 3 years, he should realize what is happening at other professional careers and what the life requires for achieving any bigger goal.
Believe you me, either it is stipends or working conditions, all professional careers require extra efforts, dedication, humble behavior, sincerity, diligence, and objectivity.
Young generation thinks that life SHOULD BE bed of roses. Buddy, this has never to be a case. Neither this was for the ones who passed away nor for the ones who have to come. You have to undergo all these pressures and difficult times if you wish to be "professional" and if you wish to achieve your objective.
In fact chaps don't even know what is their complaint? There is in fact no complaint at all if one is reasonable and thinks reasonably; this is a frustration we all face during our training that makes us to yell like this.
Dard,
It would be far better if you chaps leave arguing merely for the sake of arguments. Just for a moment think what PERSONAL grouse you have with any firm in fact? Do you have? You are not even into this trade at this point of time. But when JOSHEELEE debate comes, you think it your privilege to declare that grouses are genuine. ) You know in fact the same-thing is happening everywhere when you see complaints against the profession. Kisi ko koi chote lagi hai tu kisi ko koi, and nobody looks into the real problems and keeps on reducing his frustration by doing these irrelevant things. The majority has no factual complaint if you dig out the problems of each of such complainant. We just dump our frustration (in majority of cases caused by our own circumstances) by committing these things and designing the reasons of our failures of whatever nature. This is our nature that we always wish to shift the burden of our responsibilities on the shoulders of others.
Hadeedian's issue is different. I know from where he is speaking and what actually his problem is. He has in fact seen some harsh days, and he has simply misperceived and misunderstood his career requirement. He himself agrees on it. He is not raising the questions which are of his concern nor does he have any grip on the subject matter. I AGAIN TELL YOU THAT HE KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THE SUBJECT MATTER OF HIS QUESTIONS AND HE HAS ALSO NO PROFESSIONAL OR ACADEMIC CONCERN WITH SUCH QUESTION AT THE LEVEL HE IS. This is just to reduce frustration. I have tried to reduce the difference he cropped up in his mind but against the expectation I could not. Still, I wish him every success to his future whatever he wishes to do. After all somewhere one has to be adoptable and this is the thing which human learns only with the passage of time. You cannot be a rebel in any field if you wish to do something in such a field. You have to flow with the system to mend its pitfalls (if any); and if you will adopt a reverse direction, you will eventually be the failure and loser. Any pressure will crush you and we are seeing same thing happening.
I am not supporting the profession illogically for a thing where I should not. Yes, I cannot accept a wrong version as well against the profession because I have seen these all stages as well.
Hope you will understand.
Regards
- kamranACA - 07-16-2010
Hadeedian
I advise you to revisit all International Audit Pronouncements and try to understand the responsibility of auditors, if you are in fact wishing to get the clarity.
Corruption is never documented in majority of the cases, so no one in the world can capture it when he is supposed to base his work on documents and documentary evidences and documented explanations only; and the thing which you are calling as fraud mainly comes under the definition of such malpractices. These are not frauds in fact. All International Pronouncements even agree that a well planned fraud cannot be surfaced even by applying all reasonable testings owing to the nature of audit. You should learn what is the nature of audit.
Notwithstanding this, I don't tend to agree that good firms keep queit if something is surfaced, or apply any lesser than required due procedures to establish the MODERATE ASSURANCE they require for the stakeholders.
Further, auditors no where in the world are supposed to be scoiety cleaners or policemen or NAB officials ) or Jehadis or Commandos or secret agents or anything like Blood-Hounds (appropriate words used by Nauman). Strange expectations you have derived from your profession even after claiming that you did your CA Inter. Their duty is to remain ethical on their work, do appropriate planning and risk assessments (as per Internationally accepted procedures and not strictly as per spys or secret agents), collect appropriate audit evidence of a given documented record of financials setting appropriate materiality levels, using sampling techniques and applying tests of controls or adopting substantive procedures and to provide MODERATE ASSURANCE based upon the audit evidences they gather and conlcude as per Internationally accepted requirements.
Auditors no where have any ABSOLUTE responsibility towards stakeholders and society owing to inherent limitations and test check nature of the audit. Yes, whatever they conclude based upon their audit and keeping in view materiality levels; they should report it at appropriate level. What is appropriate level is again to be checked as per International Standards.
I am not here to impart lectures on auditing and its scope, so the above is only a food for thought. I wonder why did not you learn things about audit even theoratically. Don't mind my words please.
Notwithstanding the above, I advise you to visit any stock exchange (KSE, ISE or LSE), go to its library, invest two three days, check the annual reports of industries and entities of all sectors selecting a good entity mix as sample unbiasedly, and conclude how many qualified / adverse /disclaimed / emphasized reports are available there. You will find the answer to your question to a great extent.
Now after seeing how many modified reports are avialble, also dig out what eventually happened pursuant to that reporting. I believe all good firms perform their work diligently, yet, even after appropriate reporting, check what actually happens. How many had been hanged in past where such reports were issued?
As an instance around 35%-40% of my own clients have been given qualified reports during the last year. Some were even adverse. What are you talking about my friend. You need to learn too much before raising the baseless questions.
Regardless of above suggestion, I tend to agree that auditors (everywhere in the world) are also human beings and the things which exist in all humanity can exist in auditors worldwide as well. That's why events like Enron and Satyam occur. But in most of cases the culprits (if they are proved so) are taken to the task. I wish you to study that Pakistan Accountant (pertaining to almost 6 or 7 months back)in which Corporate Frauds were the theme and an article was published on History of Corporate Frauds in Pakistan. Study that article as the writer got the rare courage of mentioning/uncovering such corporate frauds by name; and find out what happened eventually with such frauds, their auditors and ultimate outcome.
However, mind it, anything wrong done by a few does not totally destroy the worth and contribution of a particular profession. Kidneys' illegal trade does not destroy the honor of medicine profession altogether. Cowardness of a general does not destroy the genuinity of entire army. Just an example. Yes I agree that such instances can affect thousands of lives; but what can be done. These are the human limitations and you cannot create an ideal society anywhere.
Although the above discussion was necessary so that you don't feel there is no answer to your questions; still, I advise you to remain focused on your target instead of merely finding out pitfalls of others. If you have to be a CA, try to qualify your exams as early as possible for you and come into professional practice and mend the things which you AT ALL percieve to be incorrect and set an example for others. When I say this, people feel that I am taunting them. No; in fact I don't taunt. It is a fact that you guys have to take the lead in coming times. So, flow with the system, achieve your goal, come in the race and set examples. If you don't courage then please avoid commenting on the courage of others.
Sitting outside the ring and raising comments on the performance of fighters is no bravery; do come in the ring and fight back what you think should be fought back. Otherwise, your claims, objections, statements, abuses etc would be nothing but an example of grapes are sour. Don't mind this connotation. You will one day realize that leaving a profession or any endeavor for the fear of its hardships and for the anamolies one percieves and then commenting on it like this is none of other thing but is what I just wrote. Should we comment how bad some hiker is performing and what ACTUALLY he should do when we don't even dare to put first step on a mountain?
If you think the profession (also adopted by you) is wrong and you don't even hold your thoughts (however these may be misconcieved) with you then why you are running from your duty? Auditors kisi aur jahaan say paida hotay hain? No, tum jaisay he hotay hain. Come and fight back. Otherwise you know what will you be called.
I hope you will not mind anything mentioned above because still I feel you should get out of frustration and you can achieve the target as Allah has given you all the abilities.
Regards,
- Dard - 07-16-2010
Medical trainees of FCPS get around 20000-23000rs pm. And mostly you don't get stipends abroad for training, you get salary. Just to clear
- kamranACA - 07-16-2010
FCPS trainees are fully trained professionals; MBBS doctors licensed to practice in Pakistan under the authority of Pakistan Medical Council.
If you are a fully qualified CA and still in articles, you are supposed to get Rs. 25,000 minimum stipend.
When you will argue about abroad and their salary then you will have to compare that "salary" with the real salary of qualified professionals. You will find the difference. Do you see those trainees earning 200,000 british pounds a year? Compare apple with apple and orange with orange.
Think before writing, I again advise you.
Regards,
- Dard - 07-17-2010
The trainees get salary abroad. Why compare the salary of a "trainee" with the salary of a qualified professional?
- kamranACA - 07-17-2010
Because you are arguing simply for the sake of argument and not for any reasonable purpose.
The point is to analyze the conditions and circumstances which one faces during the training period as per his own cutlture and environment. Whatever one faces or gets in his training period cannot be compared with what the people get after passing through such phase. That's why I said compare apple with apple and orange with orange.
Pakistani trainees have to be compared with the conditions they face during their training keeping in view Pakistani conditions of all similar profession;s and UK trainees have to be compared with the conditions generally prevelant in UK and with other similar professions in UK. You will find things alike in all professional careers at a given place. Same hardships and difficulties!
If cross border comparison is required then you will have to discount all other life's conditions as well. Certainly you cannot do so. And yes, also keep in mind that a Pakistani student does not have free choice to leave Pakistan and be a part of UK if he dislikes his local setup. This requires so much and keeping in view our earlier exchange of posts I know you will not understand it. So advice for you is to, "okay, then go and get training at UK".
One thing I specifically wish to mention for you and ACCA students who feel the firms are too bad, conditions are too hard, and stipends are to meager and should be converted to salary etc. You guys should avoid joining firms. Is it okay with you all?
Keep in mind one thing, where the competition is open and nothing is regulated then the prices fetched by services are also the open market prices. Since you are an ACCA student, none of the firm is under any moral or legal duty to entertain you at all; and similarly you are also not at all obliged to join the firms only for your training, so your situation draws certain logical inferences. Your debate on this thread altogether does not make sense because you are not the one who should argue for stipends fixed by ICAP and stiff conditions being faced in the ICAP regulated firms. Further, as you can join firms as well as industry so you need not to be adoptable for the so-called bad environment of the firms and meager stipends. Go and join the multinationals, if you worth to and as you all claim. If you wish to join firms and can prove that you have far better market worth, then prove yourself and get as maximum stipend as your worth can bring for you. Mind it, for ACCA trainees there is no minimum stipend and they are an open market competitor, so, test your luck and whatever you will get name it to your capabilities and not to any regulated policies.
We (hadeedian and myself) are discussing CA students and their issues within CA firms in Pakistan. It's not about ACCA trainees.
I hope you will control your thirst of arguing for the sake of argument.
Regards,
- hadeedian - 07-18-2010
Dear Mr Kamran
Thanks for your courtesy and valuable time... By the way, i knew your answer at first place, I knew that you will raise a issue on audit limited and absolute assurance. I agree with most of your points. I know that most firms in Pakistan are completing all the local and international regulations and pronouncements with exceptions of few firms who issue three or more different audited reports. One for FBR, One to take loan from bank and one for their own purpose. But, generally, firms are complying with all the local and international regulations....
Sir, the questions i raised were not from a CA student or Trainee, they were the questions from this nation who knows nothing about AUDIT and Assurance. So your answers should have been written focusing them, not me, a CA trainee who already knows about audit limited assurance and limitations as well. Yes, i am student, but i know little bit... lol
Sir, at some places, we encounter regulations and "Ethics" simultaneously..... What i wanted to say was that "i agree that majority of the firms are complying with all the regulations and not a single question may be raised on their integrity, BUT WHAT ABOUT ETHICS? I mean to say firms use this "limited assurance" clause as an alibi, knowing the fact that there are unlimited irregularities which also come under the umbrella of audit scope, but after all, we are "Well qualified and trained Chartered Accountants" and we are capable enough to ignore or hide such irregularities under the name of "limited assurance" and there are number of loopholes in our regulations or system which we can use as an alibi..... AND WE USE IT UP TO MAXIMUM EXTENT.
Dear Sir
Now, i am not at all want to prolong this useless discussion, i know at the end we will get nothing but just waste of time. I have also taken your so much time, and this is a debt on me..... and i appreciate your courtesy....
I wish you were my teacher or i had some chance to meet you and learn from you.....
I am very sorry for my harsh words and very thankful for your politeness at the same time.
In the last, i want to ask something..... I am standing at the verge of my decision making process, as i told you i am gonna change my field and i told you the reasons.... and in my decision making process, not a single matter is supporting to continue for Chartered Accountancy...
May you create a single enough reason for me to stay with this profession because deep down in my heart, i still feel the same love which i used to feel for my profession. Yeah, i have truly loved my profession but now.....
You know I end up not getting selected in BIG 10 or i might say even BIG 20 firms, WHAT IS MY SCOPE AFTER COMPLETING MY ARTICLES FORM SUCH A SMALL FIRM??? Passing the exams is not an issue for me, and has never been an issue for me in the past, i am quite sure of my abilities. I just want to know "what is my future becoming a chartered accountant having qualified form a small firms who hardly has one or two listed clients?"
Will i be able to still compete in the market with Chartered Accountants who are qualified from BIG 4?
Sir, please i need a sincere answer and a direct answer, not a long theory from which i myself have to dig the answer.... Your support may ease my decision making process.
And let me tell you, getting selected in a small firm is not the ONLY reason for leaving this profession, there are plenty of other reasons but If i get assurance that this small firm wont have a big issue with my career in future, i might regained all my love for this profession again and all the other issues will have no preference over my love.... one thing more, while construction your answer, consider the fact, i have found another lucrative career which i can easily pursue in very short time and this is something which is enticing me..... and this is far more lucrative than CA. lol.... I don't want to put efforts in any field who finally yield not more than 50, 60k.... You can think of me quite negatively, but i told u that we do hard work in this world just to earn, and this is universal truth...
So this is the Pivot Question i have asked you to answer. WILL I STILL BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH BIG 4 QUALIFIED CAs?
Your answer will draw lines for my future....
Thanking you.
Regards
hadeedian