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+--- Thread: ACCA to be ousted from Pakistan within 1.5 - 2 yrs (/showthread.php?tid=8329)
- arsenal.gooner - 07-14-2010
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ciapk</i>
<br />Groundless propaganda about ICAP and ACCA as well. I dont conceive such an ****eyed gossips a qualified professional ( teacher ) could say to his students it may be a rumour from someone else.
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i was present in the class when he said this
- kamranACA - 07-14-2010
Do we feel ACCA was ever "in" or was not previously "ousted" at/from Pakistan?
I know it looks indecent question so regrets are due from my side in advance. Yet, this question is critical and carries an answer to the question raised in this thread.
I don't think legally some one will send ACCA to exile or cause a closure of its local chapter at all. ACCA is not a threat to any one in professional meaning. There are thousands of ACCA students and such number has not changed the situation even a bit till now. This means a lot, if we tend to understand.
Yes, ICAP can reduce its exemptions further or totally eliminate all exemptions as a matter of its own policy, if it would be necessary. This can create problem and this is what people feel as a threat. Obviously CAs don't need any exemption from ACCA. They have exemptions from much better institute i.e. ICAEW (where further dialogues are in progress) and where dialogue with CICA has also been initiated; but regretfully on other side this is not a case as ACCA in Pakistan needs exemptions for CA.
If I am wrong and ACCA does not need any exemption from ICAP and any such reduction or elimination is not of any significance for them, then there are no worries.
However, in my opinion ICAP will not eliminate exemptions entirely.
Let's see what future unfolds.
Regards,
- ink0p0la - 07-15-2010
1. According to NARIC, ACCA is equivalent to a UK Masters degree and ACA (ICAP) is equivalent to a UK Bachelors degree, hence ACCA gets more points for UK immigration purposes;
2. At present ACCA members get more exemptions from the ICAEW than ACA (ICAP) as ACCA is a UK Chartered Body and is a member of CCAB;
3. ACCA has much more recognition all over the world (including US/Canada, Middle East, Australia) compared to ICAP.
4. ACCA has MRAs in place with a number of major accountancy bodies around the world, unlike ICAP.
No wonder ICAP is scared of ACCA. And there isn't much they can do about it!
Inko
London
- Dard - 07-15-2010
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Do we feel ACCA was ever "in" or was not previously "ousted" at/from Pakistan?
I know it looks indecent question so regrets are due from my side in advance. Yet, this question is critical and carries an answer to the question raised in this thread.
I don't think legally some one will send ACCA to exile or cause a closure of its local chapter at all. ACCA is not a threat to any one in professional meaning. There are thousands of ACCA students and such number has not changed the situation even a bit till now. This means a lot, if we tend to understand.
Yes, ICAP can reduce its exemptions further or totally eliminate all exemptions as a matter of its own policy, if it would be necessary. This can create problem and this is what people feel as a threat. Obviously CAs don't need any exemption from ACCA. They have exemptions from much better institute i.e. ICAEW (where further dialogues are in progress) and where dialogue with CICA has also been initiated; but regretfully on other side this is not a case as ACCA in Pakistan needs exemptions for CA.
If I am wrong and ACCA does not need any exemption from ICAP and any such reduction or elimination is not of any significance for them, then there are no worries.
However, in my opinion ICAP will not eliminate exemptions entirely.
Let's see what future unfolds.
Regards,
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I have two questions
On what basis do you say ICAEW is a "better" qualification than ACCA?
Why is ICAP reducing exemptions to ACCA to half or even none? Just because it "thinks" ACCA is lower?
- VITAL - 07-15-2010
Is it sensible to rank any qualification of one institute on the basis of extent of exemptions given by other institutes?
The answer to this question will solve all the problems until a new kid comes up a topic âCA or ACCA, which one is bestâ
My answer to the given question is in negative.
For example, if Bangladeshi CA institute do not have policy of giving any exemption to ICAP (of course ICAP donât want exemption from it), should we draw a stupid conclusion that CA of Pakistan is not good as compared to CA of Bangladesh?
Absolutely not
The same is the case here.
Kamran Bhai used the phrase âas a matter of policyâ.
This phase is meaningful if we go at the depth of it.
If ICAP withdraws some exemptions given to ACCA, then it will do so as a matter of policy, not because of ICAP is scared of ACCA or ICAP rank ACCA qualification as low, or whatever.
Then the question is why ICAP will frame and pursue such a policy?
The answer is, as I said before, it because of huge numbers of ACCA students. You all should notice that with the passage of time there is a tremendous increase in ACCA students, and because of this the extent of exemptions is reduced with the passage of time.
ICAP cannot produce same number of members as is produced by ACCA because it is not good for the profession of Chartered Accountancy in Pakistan.
Thatâs why more exemptions will be withdrawn. Only few sensible and realistic ACCA students realize this.
So, unrealistic ACCA students should stop propaganda against ICAP and raise their voice to the ACCA whose only objective to become the worldâs largest institute by size.
The main aim or mission of ICAP is to safeguard the profession of Chartered Accountancy and to keep up the scope of CA in all those places where CAs want to work (not all around the world). Thatâs why the main focus of ICAP, as I said, before, is to get maximum possible exemptions from ICAEW, CICA and ICAA (not every institute of every country) because many ICAP members work there in those countries.
Actually it was intentionally started CA vs ACCA debate and this inko donât want an end of it. I donât think he is a newcomer. He wrote this in two different places and the other place being ACCA vs CA topic of Career Forum.
This inko is comparing CA with ACCA on the basis of UK immigration points.
It is the biggest stupidity of the world to compare two qualifications on the basis of immigration points.
- Dard - 07-15-2010
LøL! If ICAP adopts ICAEW's syllabus, the fair thing would be to award more exemptions to ACCA, isn't it?
Vital, if Icap is reducing exemptions to ACCA students because of large numbers of ACCA students, that means ICAP does feel a threat. This is not again a C.A vs ACCA debate
- Osama Rules - 07-16-2010
Salam,
Interesting debate!
Well,I think that doing CA through ACCA will now become less & less popular for obvious reasons so those starting ACCA recently should go to uk only.
Regards.
- VITAL - 07-16-2010
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dard</i>
<br />I don't see any reason for ICAP to fear ACCA. In Pakistan ICAP is the regularity body
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
you said, as above, you dont see any reason for ICAP to fear ACCA. Right. Now what changed your mind? Have you not seen huge numbers of ACCA students before.
Second, what ICAEW is doing here again? ICAP never made any official statement regarding the taking up of ICAEW system. It is just proposal. We just discussed.
Third, exemptions are not given on the basis of fairness, they are given a matter of policy. I cannot write again and again. PLZ re-read. I accept the reality and say withdrawing of exemptions is not fair.
Mr. Dard, I do respect ACCA students. Its ICAP, man. Its ICAP, understand its working and system. We CA students are not living in paradise. We faced bad failure. Was that fair? It was introduced as a matter of policy and abolished as a matter of policy. I still not get the logic of its abolishment. Whatever ICAP is doing, it is just of because of well-being of profession.
Here a person said that 80% ACCA students take ACCA as shortcut. You did not disagree with him. If those 80% come in CA firms, where we go? and if those 80% become members, what about the scope of CA in its own country. CA firms cannot induct those 80%. I think you people are taking this as threat for the ICAP. It is not a threat. It is problem. These numbers are problem. The huge supply in the market cause the low price of the commodity. ICAP has to keep that supply in check. You said that ACCA has no much scope in Pakistan. Why Beause of that supply.
Pak CA profession cannot absorb huge supply. The economic conditions should also be considerd in the given context.
Otherwise,qualifications donot pose any threat on each other.
I hope you understand now. If not, I dont care.
- ink0p0la - 07-16-2010
Dear Mr/Ms VITAL, this inko is not an ACCA student. This inko runs an accountancy firm in London and has trained many ICAEW and ACCA students, and was merely trying to answer the question posed at this forum, i.e. is ICAP threatened by ACCA? and if so, why? I felt that my earlier comment was self explanatory but it seems that I need to spell it out for some forum members. The answer in plain English is, yes ICAP is threatened and the reason being that before you know there will be more ACCA members in Pakistan compared to ICAP members. And these ACCA members, with the passage of time will reach senior positions in industry and practice. In accounts departments around the country, they will be in majority and being loyal to their own professional body, will recruit more ACCA trainees in preference to ICAP trainees. This obviously, will be a very undesirable position for ICAP. Hope this answers the question.
Furthermore, ACCA students in Pakistan don't need to worry about exemptions from ICAP. If they want to be CAs, they can always join my favourite accountancy body, the ICAEW under its Pathway Scheme for the ACCA and CIMA members. Unfortunately, ICAP members are not yet being offered this option by the ICAEW!
- VITAL - 07-16-2010
Dear Mr/Ms Inko, this Mr VITAL is a CA student who lives in Pakistan and is fully aware of the ground realities found in Pakistan. I think you are extremely unaware of those ground realities. Sorry for that.
I also felt that my earlier comments were sufficient, but I think you need some knowledge.
You said that with the passage of time ACCA members will reach senior positions in industry and practice. But these ACCA students are themselves saying that ACCA has no much scope in Pakistan. How they can reach senior positions?
As far as practice is concerned, ACCA members are not allowed to conduct an audit of public companies, and even private companies having capital of three million rupees or more.
ACCA members are not aware of Pakistani Tax and Corporate Laws, how they can provide consultancy in this area and how they can reach senior positions in Practice also?
You said that in the accounts department, your future ACCAs will recruit more ACCA trainees in preference to ICAP trainees.
For your knowledge, ICAP trainees donât get training from Accounts departments. In Pakistan there are CA firms for that purpose. The partners of those firms are ICAP members and they are not going to die overnight.
You said that ACCA students donât need to worry about exemptions. But the truth is that 80% of them are in ACCA only because to become CA in future and they are just taking ACCA as a Shortcut. They are of view that CA is the best option in Pakistan.
You advised them to join ICAEW. For your knowledge, Mr/Ms inko, I already advised them to go for ICAEW and even CFA if they want. But ACCA students like to work here, not in UK. So they like to become CA.
Best Regards,
Vital
- kamranACA - 07-16-2010
ICAP was established in 1961 and some other localized institutes were also brought into existence in similar times. Todate after around Half a Century have gone, the other institutes have not reached a point where they can compete ICAP and its professionals; not even 10% of the market share when quality and senior positions in industry come into question. This is not to disgrace any one; but a fact on ground.
ACCA has been introduced in early 90s perhaps in Pakistan, and I don't see them changing the situation a bit in at least in next one century in Pakistan unless they take the shortcut and do CA from Pakistan. If they do, they will no more be privileged for being ACCA. Beyond a century in future there is no need to discuss anything presently.
I wonder if you have ever seen a topic on this forum where some CA might have said that "ICAP to be Ousted from pakistan in 2 years", so the public opinion is evidencing what is in a threat although I feel this is not a matter of threat for ACCA, rather I have an outright question on the valid existence of the discussed body in professional meanings.
If somebody has to opine against the privileges CAs are enjoying due to legal framework or whatever, it will make no difference. Every country has fullest right to frame its policies to provide its local market due privilege or protection wherever required. The Anti-Dumping Duty and Tariff Protection sort of things invented by the WEST have been invented for same purposes and for similar reasons to regulate the "situation".
The "situation" that doe snot have to change. Mind it, this situation has the age roughly equal to the age of Pakistan and this situation will be there for ever.
Regards,
- Dard - 07-16-2010
Vital, there was a condition in my last post, "if"
ACCA has Pakistani law and tax variants. So now that is not gonna be a problem
- masroorahmed - 07-17-2010
@vital
well vital u advised me to go wid CA or CFA after ACCA
nw can u tell me which tution provider wud be ideal fr CFA...
n wat are the pre requisite to enter CFA.... i mean to say the eligibility req....
i dont want to be part of CA vs ACCA discussion....thts y plz consider me out of ths topic.... who want u to share ur knowledge .... wy8ng fr ur rep...
thanx
- VITAL - 07-17-2010
Masroor Ahmed you are a good person. This CA VS ACCA is not my hobby.
Look I am just a CA student. I cannot advise you in this regard.
You should visit CFA website.
CFAs are the kings in mutual fund industry. They earn high salary. In Lahore CFE is a good institute for CFA. All this is I know about CFA.
- ink0p0la - 07-17-2010
Mansoor Do CFA after ACCA!? CFA is an investment management qualification, and not an accountancy qualification. It would be a career change from accountancy to financial services. One can do CFA without the ACCA qualification so why go through all the unnecessary hassle? You either want to be an accountant or an investment manager. Please take some time, do some soul searching and make up your mind before progressing any further with your studies!
VITAL Enjoy your tiny world of ICAP while the ICAEW, CIMA and ACCA conquer the world of accountancy including Pakistan. No one's even heard of ICAP outside Pakistan. Ask your colleagues who tried to transfer to the Big 4 offices in the UK or USA. They were told to pass ICAEW, ACCA or AICPA exams first.
And one more thing, only a tiny proportion of accountants are auditors, the rest aspire to become FDs and CFOs in multinational corporations or work as corporate finance consultants. So not being able to audit is not really a hurdle to progress in the field of accountancy.
I am in no way taking part in the CA v ACCA debate. I am a CA myself but am just sick of 'some' ICAP members' unjustified arrogance. And being a teacher, I am merely trying to motivate non-ICAP accountancy students in Pakistan that they do not need to tolerate the ICAP monopoly in Pakistan (which is about to be shattered within a few years by much bigger international players, ICAEW, ACCA, CIMA and AICPA are all planning their worldwide domination agendas). ICAP can be completely bypassed by ambitious accountants with these overseas qualifications.