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Is recession really here?
12-22-2009, 05:23 AM
Post: #16
 
Dear T.O Boy,

It is really very unfortunate. We shold not expect Accountants & bankers to be an Economist as happens in Pakistan, but accountants must have a deep insight on economic issues surrounding the business environment.

Regards,
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12-23-2009, 01:38 AM
Post: #17
 
Dears

I must say that the comments of maqszaman about economists in Pakistan are very interesting.

Brother, in Pakistan, unfortunately the education in generalized set up is of too low quality to produce what you or others anticipate while focusing Canada or USA in comparison. Let me tell you that doing M.A. Economic in Pakistan by a competent person does not require the study of more than 12 to 15 days (in extreme case 30 days). In some cases this demand will go even down. This I am not telling you without a reason to believe on my statement. You can assess what would be the situation of our economists.

Very rare persons take it as a serious future objective and opt for M. Phil or Ph.D. and the ones who do it are taken over by others in a brain draining quest.

So, given the level of expertise found in our economists, we should thank to the Lord that there is some one who is doing the needful.

This post is not to undermine any one individually. Rather, it is based on facts where individually capabilities can certainly differ.

Just to share,

Some days back there was a conference of South Asian Federation of Exchanges (SAFE) at Karachi. People were wondering how to expand the base for capital market operations in Pakistan and SOuth Asian Region. They were providing ideas to educate the people in urban as well as rural areas to come up with their savings and invest in stocks.

I wonder no one was discussing that how people would come to stocks even if they are educated on it. There is no balance in banking and capital market in Pakistan at all. Every one, at urban as well as rural areas, is over leveraged individually. This is a fact. There is un-ending race among banks; and between banking sector and automobile sector. Our previous years' declared growth rates were largely affected by the fictitious growth of these two sectors only where banks were leveraging and automobile was producing and selling. (At other places similar was issue with mortgage). When the over leveraging collapsed (that was always expected) it affected the both sectors. However, still no one is taking care of this area to regularize it.

We don't at large have a habit of saving. Spending though generates the economic activity but without national savings and without creating balances how could we succeed raising capital markets.

There were so many representations on the said conference but no one specifically talked about creating balance between banking sector and capital markets. No one talked about un-ending credit and leveraging that is ruining our generatations to come.

Regards,


KAMRAN.
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12-23-2009, 04:30 PM
Post: #18
 
"Let me tell you that doing M.A. Economic in Pakistan by a competent person does not require the study of more than 12 to 15 days (in extreme case 30 days)"

This can be said for many degrees for instance all M.A degrees and LLB. One of my cousine who is doing Ph.D from Islamic International University have the view that Ph. D Economics more difficult than ICMA and CA. It depends upon one's perception. One thing is mentionable that ussually B.Commers show very bad performance in M.A Economics. Because of the fact the syllabus of Economics of B.Com is very easy.
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12-23-2009, 05:11 PM
Post: #19
 
Dear Awais

In my view, your cousin is right as far as difficulty is concerned, though these are not comparable as other two are designations not degrees. I think PhD in Economics should be compared to PhD in Accounting or Finance. I don't think we have any concept of PhD's in accounting or finance in Pakistan. Perhaps IBA or LUMS offer those, but never saw actual person getting it from there. Also, not even in Pakistan but also abroad, PhD from even a normal university is very difficult. However, reasons for its difficulty in Pakistan are different than universities in abroad. I don't know exactly what the current situation is in Pakistan after Dr. Atta ur Rahman's initiatives, but certainly before him, conditions were not so good in Pakistan.

Regards
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12-23-2009, 05:47 PM
Post: #20
 
Dear Toronto,
He may be right but things are not so simple. I think if we discuss Ph.D in Accounts and Finance then we shall divert from the point that I want to raise. My point is that M.A Economics is not so simple that one can pass it whithin two weeks. One can pass it within one week but do not generalize the situation or assertion. Although M.A Economics is not so difficult but for those who have enogh knowledge of calculus in other words the students who have done F.Sc with maths.
In my opinion about 1 week is only required for the preparation of paper of Islamic Economics which is one of the easiest subject. Beside it Mathematical Economics, Statistics,Economatrics,Macro and Micro Economics Theries also required indepth studies.
I know about many persons who taken M.A Economics as child's play but they failed very badly.
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12-23-2009, 10:22 PM
Post: #21
 
Dears

I have been defending the quality of our education at other threads where it was criticized by some fellows. However, the issue raised by maqszamnan is of significance. Whenever we will drill down anything to find reasons it will lead to certain conclusions. We have a lesser number of economists in our country which area I guess requires further attention and has depth for the quality people to come.

Nevertheless, simply MA (Eco) is not something to be over-discussed. It was mentioned for assessing the reason of why we don't have the economists which we require and for which reason we always depend upon others (who are bit irrelevant) and upon imported brains. This has been done over the decades. We certainly be producing some quality people but most of such quality is drained out due to foreign visa availability or mis-utilized by us due to our failed system. This is not happening only with economists. Rather this could be witnessed in every field. However, on this area we are really handicapped.

I agree that we are not here to provide a strict yardstick of what any qualification takes. The purpose of mentioning those 12-15 days was to explain how we largely perceive the things and act upon the plans. It is a fact. We don't study for knowledge purpose; I mean at least our majority, even if we ignore the rare cases, don’t do it for the sake of knowledge. I don’t allege others. This starts from me. There is a least research. We don't have opportunities for research in our country. I know most of our MAs are done in the same fashion. It’s not merely MA (Eco), I agree. Others have fullest right to differ on this view but I wrote what I believe and what I can substantiate based upon my real life observation.

Our Ph.Ds (which we have a few) are working on 17 to 21 grades in public sector merely to find out how they can make best out of privileges attached with their jobs. Others are only giving lectures to students adding no value in the research field. Our institutes like NIBGE, Ayub Research, Agri University, Arid-Agri University, Veterinary University, TDAP and many more are only utilizing funds of the nation for no sake. They never contributed top to down despite of making big claims. We have seen some productivity from atomic laboratories although it took 3 to 4 decades of the nation in doing so. Still, what they can do and should have done is not on the scene. We are facing the worst energy crises which we could have managed by using those brains and billions of Rupees that nation invested over the years. But nothing has been done except for a limping Chashma Project, the contribution of which is too meager to add anything.

I have seen lots of instances where we and our culture made us to miss the train and did not properly utilize our brains. This is the situation of a nation that in fact faces a shortage of such persons. One of my late uncle was a Ph.D. (from USA) a scientist and doctor on whose name there are established departments in a famous University of Pakistan. He studied on scholarships in whole of his life even at USA. I wonder if we as a nation could have created any environment to utilize his abilities except for giving him good administrative posts and naming various departments, lobbies, libraries or laboratories to acknowledge his routine service. My first cousin is a Ph.D scientist who was among the team members who first thought and worked on a very aspiring and advanced technology in Pakistan that has been discussed internationally with his name as a main figure of the team. He has written a book that has been published and is studied at USA. He is a Canadian citizen. But what we are doing when he came to his country. Eventually the system put him on an administrative high ranked post where he is doing nothing but to do totally irrelevant things.

As said by Awais, the quality at other degrees and qualifications is also questionable and this is not the case merely with MA (Eco). I was not comparing Ph.D. Eco. with CAs or ICMAs by the way. I agree there is no comparability. Only the reasons of a positioning at our country were discussed.

We have twofold problem; firstly, we are lacking quality output and secondly we misuse or don't use their capabilities. Rather, we detrack them.

Notwithstanding above point of view, I am of strong belief that we should appreciate some one if he has over the time served his country even on the fronts where he had no obligation. This is a different issue.

Regards,



KAMRAN.
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12-24-2009, 02:12 AM
Post: #22
 
Hi Kamran,

Unfortunately this is a problem in almost every subject. My apprehension with Pakistani education system is that our universities/institutes are not maintaining their education quality. They are not trying to bring students’ upto their standard rather going down to the standard of the students. I visited Pakistan last year where I conducted some lectures in ICMAP and some other institutions. I was really disappointed to see the quality of education. I observed that our educationalist are following the policy of “You scratch my back and I scratch your” or in Udru “Tu mera haji bagoyam main tera haji bago”. This is the secret of success in Pakistan. Do you think it is fair that ICMAP publishing ACCA’s research papers on its website whereas they should do that themselves. Please see these links

http//icmap.com.pk/a1_fca.pdf
http//icmap.com.pk/a2_ieba.pdf
http//icmap.com.pk/a3_fmse.pdf

These are the reasons that despite of completing designation, our members keep striving for ACCA/CIMA/CMA-US etc. It means to me that they are not satisfied with their education and they think that they need further education to be competitive in local and international markets.

Comparison is made between apple to apple. We don’t expect that the education system of Pakistan should come up to the mark of USA/Canada but at least we should expect it to improve over the time. These countries took hundreds of years to reach at this point. We, now, have two options re-invent the wheel or take advantage of from Western success. It is our national culture that we outright reject everything from the West in the name of Jewish conspiracy. And we don’t do anything ourselves.

Kuchh to hotay hain mohabat main junoon kay asar
Aur khuchh log bhi diwana bana day tay hain

We have a lot of potential and resources. Zara nam ho ye mati to bohat zarkhaz hay saqi but I am afraid that if situation prevails for longer time, we won’t have water to make it “nam”. I am sorry if anything hurts your or anyones' feelings but unfortunately this is the “Bitter Truth”.
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12-24-2009, 02:25 PM
Post: #23
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by maqszaman</i>
<br />Hi Kamran,

Unfortunately this is a problem in almost every subject. My apprehension with Pakistani education system is that our universities/institutes are not maintaining their education quality. They are not trying to bring students’ upto their standard rather going down to the standard of the students. I visited Pakistan last year where I conducted some lectures in ICMAP and some other institutions. I was really disappointed to see the quality of education. I observed that our educationalist are following the policy of “You scratch my back and I scratch your” or in Udru “Tu mera haji bagoyam main tera haji bago”. This is the secret of success in Pakistan. Do you think it is fair that ICMAP publishing ACCA’s research papers on its website whereas they should do that themselves. Please see these links

http//icmap.com.pk/a1_fca.pdf
http//icmap.com.pk/a2_ieba.pdf
http//icmap.com.pk/a3_fmse.pdf

These are the reasons that despite of completing designation, our members keep striving for ACCA/CIMA/CMA-US etc. It means to me that they are not satisfied with their education and they think that they need further education to be competitive in local and international markets.

Comparison is made between apple to apple. We don’t expect that the education system of Pakistan should come up to the mark of USA/Canada but at least we should expect it to improve over the time. These countries took hundreds of years to reach at this point. We, now, have two options re-invent the wheel or take advantage of from Western success. It is our national culture that we outright reject everything from the West in the name of Jewish conspiracy. And we don’t do anything ourselves.

Kuchh to hotay hain mohabat main junoon kay asar
Aur khuchh log bhi diwana bana day tay hain

We have a lot of potential and resources. Zara nam ho ye mati to bohat zarkhaz hay saqi but I am afraid that if situation prevails for longer time, we won’t have water to make it “nam”. I am sorry if anything hurts your or anyones' feelings but unfortunately this is the “Bitter Truth”.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dear maqszaman

Top universities of world include the research works of other universities on their web sites. It is not a yardstic. Why you commenting only on ICMAP,for your kind information ICMAP is the member of International Federation of Accountants. The recommended syllabus of the federation is being taught at the institute. We have had our representation also in the International Accounting Standard Board. Our 500 members and hundreds of part qualified students are serving abroad. As far as ACCA is concerned it is considered lowest professional accounting qualification in Pakistan.
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12-24-2009, 03:24 PM
Post: #24
 
Hi Awais,

I want to let you know that I did CMA from Pakistan in 1993 and I know inside out very well. I just pointed out some short comings. I have no intention to undermine the importance of ICMAP. I can understand your emotion because I was as emotional as you are when I was a student of ICMAP.
I don't want to enter into any battle of words. However, please note that IFAC doesn't recommend syllabuses. I was just expecting a response like this .... so I have already got a confirmation from IASB. You can also get a direct confirmation. I am just copy pasting a response from IASB against your claim that ICMAP is on IASB.

From Macdonald Leilani [mailtolmacdonald@iasb.org]
Sent Tuesday, December 22, 2009 729 AM
To Maqsood Khan
Cc Creighton Ken
Subject FW Member Organizations

Dear Mr Khan,

Thank you for your enquiry. The composition of the IASB is set out in the Constitution of the IASC Foundation (this document is available on our website). According to the Constitution, there must be a geographical diversity within the IASB Board members, however, the IASB members are not country representatives.

There has never been an IASB Board member that is a citizen of Pakistan.

I hope that this answers your question.


Kind regards,

Leilani Macdonald


------------------------------------------------------------------
Leilani Macdonald | Manager, Translation Team Leader

IASB / IASC Foundation
30 Cannon Street | London EC4M 6XH | UK
Direct +44 (0) 20 7332 2744| Switchboard +44 (0) 20 7246 6410 |
Lmacdonald@iasb.org | http://www.iasb.org
Please consider the environment before printing this email.

Hope you would understand and stick to the topic.
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12-24-2009, 04:33 PM
Post: #25
 
Ohoo recession kay asraat kahan kahan say hotay hoay kahan puhanch gay hain, aur ab nai unwanted directions main puhanchna chahtay hain.

Recession na hoa, bay simt ki amar bayl hogai.... Smile guys... we all know the eventual results beforehand.[)][8D][D]
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12-24-2009, 05:12 PM
Post: #26
 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by maqszaman</i>
<br />Hi Awais,

I want to let you know that I did CMA from Pakistan in 1993 and I know inside out very well. I just pointed out some short comings. I have no intention to undermine the importance of ICMAP. I can understand your emotion because I was as emotional as you are when I was a student of ICMAP.
I don't want to enter into any battle of words. However, please note that IFAC doesn't recommend syllabuses. I was just expecting a response like this .... so I have already got a confirmation from IASB. You can also get a direct confirmation. I am just copy pasting a response from IASB against your claim that ICMAP is on IASB.

From Macdonald Leilani [mailtolmacdonald@iasb.org]
Sent Tuesday, December 22, 2009 729 AM
To Maqsood Khan
Cc Creighton Ken
Subject FW Member Organizations

Dear Mr Khan,

Thank you for your enquiry. The composition of the IASB is set out in the Constitution of the IASC Foundation (this document is available on our website). According to the Constitution, there must be a geographical diversity within the IASB Board members, however, the IASB members are not country representatives.

There has never been an IASB Board member that is a citizen of Pakistan.

I hope that this answers your question.


Kind regards,

Leilani Macdonald


------------------------------------------------------------------
Leilani Macdonald | Manager, Translation Team Leader

IASB / IASC Foundation
30 Cannon Street | London EC4M 6XH | UK
Direct +44 (0) 20 7332 2744| Switchboard +44 (0) 20 7246 6410 |
Lmacdonald@iasb.org | http://www.iasb.org
Please consider the environment before printing this email.

Hope you would understand and stick to the topic.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


Ghar ko Aag Lag Gayee Ghar K Churagh Se


Anyhow, see the following link


http//www.ifac.org/PAIB/bio.php?bio=mnara


Actually there was a misconception on my part
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12-24-2009, 10:44 PM
Post: #27
 
Hi Awais,

I know you are not Ahlay-zuban. However, please correct Misra "Is ghar ko" not "Ghar ko". Dear IFAC is not an Accounting Standard Setting body".

Aina jo dikhaya to bura maan ghay wo

Please watch

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGUaBdib-ok&NR=1

Regards,
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12-24-2009, 11:52 PM
Post: #28
 
Dears

I understand the sentiments of Awais and also find some similarities of my views on certain areas. However, Maqsood appears to be a senior fellow and his personal experiences can also not be ignored.

I think there should not be a hesitation to accept that in all generalized fronts we follow and are bound to follow what west has discovered, invent, found, concluded and disclosed. It's a fact that our sentiments get hurt with this sour fact of life. Still, we rarely do anything to reverse this situation.

Although with respect to professional pronouncements of boards and committees constituted under IFAC we can't deny participation of all stakeholders, still, how much such participation is instrumental, effective and efficient may be seriously questionable.

IAASB has issued consultaion papers on "Complexed Financial Instruments" and "Green House Projects" with reference to audit considerations. We at Pakistan are discussing these consultation papers for an upcoming meeting at some international plateform which has to be attended by a Pakistani who was on IAASB board for last three years and has again been taken on such board for another term of three years starting from 2010. (For interest of Maqsood and Awais, he is ICAP's fellow member and being on board of IAASB for six years is an honor for Pakistan). Let me tell you that these two are yet the consultation papers, and we are discussing, commenting and arranging recommendations on it. Let me tell you this yet has to transform into Exposure Drafts and then Standards. So, there may not be an issue of participation. Yes, effectiveness of participation may needs to be ascertained and quantified and questioned.


I don't want to give this thread a new direction (which it is some how heading to) so I am limiting my comments.

Maqsood, thanks for intro and we hope you will keep posting informative stuff.


Regards,



Kamran.
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12-25-2009, 12:34 AM
Post: #29
 
Hi Kamran,

Thanks for giving a new twist to this discussion. Please let me explain my view. I just want to let you know that I am proud to be Pakistani and sincerely want to see our institutions growing and bring prestige to our nation. If you see most international institutions in the world, they have MRAs amongst them, such as CPA-US, Japan, Australia, CA, CIMA, ACCA UK, CA, CMA,CGA Canada etc. I just want to include ICAP/ICMAP on this list. In this regard, I initiated some negotiation with CMA Canada and had some meeting to offer more exemptions to our institutes. But unfortunately, all those efforts went in vain because off……

Being a member of the institute for a long period, I am aware of many inside out which I think some students are not aware of. There are many things that I just can’t share on public forums. We don’t need to be emotional but analyze weakness of our system and try to improve it. It is not of my personal interest. I have world’s most prestigious accounting designations and I don’t even live in Pakistan. I am doing a fabulous job in Ministry of Finance, Govt. of Ontario. So I need not to worry about myself. I can adopt “I don’t care” or “Sanu Ki”, attitude just as thousands of our members do, if it would please some forum members. But I just want to let them know the sky is too big.

I apologize all of you for any hard feelings. I am sure you guy will never see me on http://www.accountancy.com.pk again.

Wish all of you the best.
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12-25-2009, 01:21 AM
Post: #30
 
Dear Maqsood

Aray bhai aap to bura maan gay... chalain chorain gussa. You have a lot of experience about life. You know that some times some people don't wanna listen your views. So what, ignore such comments and move on. Do your work and let others do their's. As long as you have positive intentions and faith for betterment of your fellows/people/institutions/country, keep continue.

Leave the issues which might be very delicate for some, still there could be many more areas of mutual interests. There could be many people who could be benifited from your ideas/views/life experiences.

I totally agree with you that sky is too big, so we may discuss other infinities which perhaps others wanna explore too.

Smile please...[)][)][8D]

Best Regards
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