Accountancy Forum

Dear Amir,

I don't doubt that you may have some more knowledge about Javed Iqbal. However, I wonder if you claim to have more knowledge of a father than his son in the particular context of Iqbal and Javed Iqbal.

I have also some time earlier tried to clarify you that majority of Pakistan's founders wished it to be a secular country. A mullah cannot accept it because the existence and exploration of this fact leads to curtailment of his bread and butter which he has to earn by always creating conflicting religious issues. I again mention that the term mullah is very specific and must not be mistaken to again raise new foolish allegations and arguments. Still I feel, we should not go into a long debate on this issue becoz it is not co-inciding with the subject matter.

You quoted following words of my previous e-mail

"he carried the character of a common man"

and

"I know so many of us believe him a Waliallah which he was not probably."

Is there any doubt on above statements? What you want to highlight? I could not apprehend the cultivation of your mind by making such quotation. Yes, in my view, Allama Iqbal carried character of a common man. What do you feel contrary to this statement? Do you feel every common man is a bad creature? In my view, he is not Waliallah. Do you feel that every man who is not waliallah is a bad creature? I at my own accepted that so many of us believe him Waliallah. What you want to find out? Was he a Waliallah in your opinion? If yes I have already said so manys believe so. What is new in your analysis? Can you please explain? I don't try to become over smart as you have requested. Now its your turn. Become over smart and explain your view point.

Whatever you wrote about the female's education may not be wrong theoratically but whatever actions your fellows have taken and intend to take are not in line with their words. Further, if Pakistan's conditions are not correct then start correcting it from our ownselves (I mean indviduals). It has no fault of females in fact. I wonder how we can suggest to impose restrition on females due to the fault of males. Bad condition rests with men and restriction is to be imposed on women. ) It's quite a strange mentality which does not match the words.

I in fact dont throw mud on any one. Mud may be exisiting in the air and some peoples have developed bad allergy conditions against such mud. I recommend such persons to get treatment and I pray for their earlier cure and recovery. )

Yes, I will try to give you reference of some Hadees book (out of seven) whenever I will manage to visit some library. It's a promise.

Thank you for taking out time to reply my posts.


Regards,


KAMRAN.

Yar App Kay Sath Problem Kia Hay [(!].

If majority of the leaders wanted to make pakistan a "Secular" state then what was the meaning of "Pakistan Ka Matlab Kia LA ILAHA ILLALLAH" and who was the promoter of this idea in muslim youth, furthermore, what was the reason behind two nation ideology given by Allama Iqbal(Rehmatullah-e-Allih). Who was the promoter of the idea that Muslims and Hindus both are different nations according to their religious beliefs and they can't survive with each other. Who in his speeches said that the basis of pakistan will be "Islam". If the agenda of majority of the leaders was a secular state then what was the need to break India in to two states because "Congress" already declared that the basis of india will be secularism. People of your category want to make pakistan a secular state because they want to promote free sex culture in pakistan and they want to promote nudism in this country which was made in the name of Allah. People of your category do not miss any chance to throw mud on Mullahs because these Mullahs are the only hurdle in the fulfillment of your satan agenda to promote fornication in this GOD Gifted country. By the way how many dollars are you receiving from CIA and Indian R&AW in promoting this idea? All pakistanies should beware of people like you who want to cut the roots of Pakistan.

As I have already said and i am once again saying that those who read your posts are not jugglers, they can understand your hatred feelings about pakistan and its leaders. So, I think there is no need to comment any further on who was and who wasn't Wliallah.

Islam does not disallow women to learn basic religious education nor does it disallow women from trade and employment but current situation of the world is not in favour of working women. You are promoting the idea of women employment because of two reasons.

<b>1)WAJOOD-E-ZAN SAY HAY KAINAAT MAIN RANG. [})]</b>

<b>2)Neither you have any knowledge of Islam and Shriat nor you can consider the consequences of women employment on society.</b>

My request to you is that please do not inject your obnoxious ideas in the youth of Pakistan.

Time Out

Dear Amir,

There was a time when your posts were supposed to be replied with full strength and logics. However, with the passage of days, now your posts have become a source of amusement for others. You are in fact crazy and I can give some name of this brimming over tendency apparent in your personality. However, I don't name you at a public forum.

You are apparently from those who used to nominate specific lobbies (of which you are greatly feared of) for every thing happening around. For example if you got up of COLD AND FEVER it would not be strange of you to declare it a conspiracy of R&AW or CIA etc. Can you analyze who are the people that have caused reasons for USA and NATO's invasion / intrusion in our regions, which they always wanted to do. Can this help visualizing something to you?

There were so many reasons of demanding a separate country than the Indians. I also agree about the slogans like "Pakistan Ka Matlab Kiyaa Laa Illa Ha Illa-Allah" and the "two nation formula" etc. Of course Pakistan was demanded as a separate country for muslims where muslims were supposed to survive of the cruelties they were facing as a weak nation from hindus and sikhs. There was a long standing hatred among such nations based upon a struggle of acquisition of power spreading over centuries from the time of Babar's penetration in this region. This is a very long story. Further, general people, some religious persons and emotions of so many sects were involved in whole of this process. That’s why the basic agenda remained to get rid of a striking factor in empowerment and whenever you have such situations particular religious emotions remain attached with major concerns.

However, the political leaders of that time who gave this basic idea were personally secular minded. If you doubt, see each and every one's personal life and mindset. For example so many speeches and acts of Mr. Jinnah reflected this idea. You can also see the appointment of people Like Sir Zafarullah Khan and M.M. Ahmed in that initial period on the key posts. This was always liked by Mr. Jinnah (and many of his fellows and followers) becoz secularism speaks of merit and demolishes other differences. The son of Iqbal witnesses that his father was secular minded. The secular concept did not mean that Pakistan was not for muslims. Rather the purpose was to get a country mainly for muslims (plus other communities that may opt to live in Pakistan) where major concept of life would be based upon secular rules. This was also the main reason of facing opposition from Ulemaa's of that time. You should study what Maulana Azad had been saying against Pakistan. To understand this requires a deep study of Pakistan's creation and back ground. It cannot be proved in one or two mails by any one. We just need to take our minds out of the pre-determined/pre-set state to understand it. However, I know for some people the crow has to remain white and everything explained would be like playing some instrument in front of a useful animal.

I, like I always prefer to do, wish to restrict commenting on the statements you passed on me personally, to a certain limited extent.

I wonder how much the thought of Mullah mindset focuses on free sex culture, nudism, satan agenda, and dollars etc. Why your minds are stuck up into it. Why don't the minds of you people go any where else on positive sides. Did you see any body talking about sex, nudism etc on this forum so frequently except yourself. Dollars ke baat tu samajh main aati hai becoz these enhance the HALWA buying capacity. By the way you never bothered to reply how the Assets of Top Cream of Laskar-e-Tayyuba were frozen in USA? In fact we wish to know how they made their assets in USA? This may be a deciding factor about who is CIA's funded.

Thank you for so "wisely" requesting me not to inject my idea in the youth.

Regards,



KAMRAN.

You previous post was once again too absurd for me. This is another evidence of your lack of knowledge of subject matter. If any one wants to title you previous post he/she could title it as "Secular Islam in Pakistan".

Anyway, you have written in your previous post;

<b>"The secular concept did not mean that Pakistan was not for muslims. Rather the purpose was to get a country mainly for muslims (plus other communities that may opt to live in Pakistan) where major concept of life would be based upon secular rules."</b>

First of all let me clear one thing that the founder of Pakistan has lot of times said in his speeches that the basis of pakistan will be islam, secondly, secularism discourages any state religion, however, if there is a state religion then it only possess a symbolic character with no intervention in the life of individuals. But islam on the other hand tackles every thing in society, it manages the whole life of humans including economic system, political system, social system, cultural orientation and philanthropic responsibilities. Islam as a complete religion orders its followers to stick to what Allah says and avoid any concoction and guile amendments(like Ban-e-Israel), Allah says "Ay Eman Waloon Deen my Poray Kay Poray Dakhil Ho Jao" at another occasion Allah says "Allah Nay Islam Ko Batoor-e-Mazhab tumharay liay Pasnd Kar Lia Hay". So, Muslims should stick to divine laws and avoid any parallel system. Secularism says that if there is a state religion then it will only act as dummy and secular laws will prevail over it but Islam says that Divine laws and Sharia rulings will always prevail and there is no need to adopt any parallel system, whoever adopts parallel system would revoke the covenant which he made to Allah.

George Holyoke the theorist of secularism says that Secularism was intended for those who found theology inadequate, indefinite, unreliable and unbelievable. Now, if you find islam as inadequate, indefinite, unreliable and unbelievable then no one can stop you from accepting secularism but mind it this is a mistake of your shortsightedness not the mistake of islam.

So, Mr. SOS (Sycophant of Secularism) neither you have any knowledge of Islamic laws nor you seem to have any idea about secularism and its laws and their impact on societies specially on muslim majority nations. So, it is always good if you keep your mouth shut on these topics.

Sycophant Secularists are always against hard line mullahs because these mullahs are the only hurdle in the satan business of these sycophants.

Dear Amir,

Your www.google.com based info is good about secularism. )

Although the top leaders of the history were secular minded, still, the point of difference with illiterate guys like you is just that, what we have to implement? You guys show such sort of picture of Islam and stress to prove your own understanding which does not base on factual teachings of Islam. There is of course a compulsion for the followers of Islam to follow everything that has been stipulated there-in and I am not an exception to this rule. However, the definition of Islam your mindset wishes to spread out in the whole world is totally one sided and Islam strictly guides to adopt the mid-ways. You just don't understand this fact and I know you don't have a capacity to understand it.

Secularism, on the other hand, is a blessing in disguise for the muslims living in secular countries. You again cannot understand it because you have a destructive mind. Muslims are not up to the level to challenge the other nations because of two main things. One is their backwardness on every technical/financial/educational/economic fronts (at the moment) and the other is the rigidity spread out by the MULLAH category which affects the progress badly. You can see (although cannot digest) that every Pakistani wishes to leave it for USA, Canada, UK, Australia and other advanced countries. The main reasons (which also include monetary benefits) are the security threats and the endangered future of their kids due to the existence of minds like you. I will, sometime, post an e-mail received by me from a qualified specialist doctor (my friend) who left Pakistan for some advanced country. What does he feel about Pakistan and what the difference he has seen in that other country is sufficient to know how people living there feel about it. Secularism in fact means peace for those who live there. This is what Islam in fact teaches us. And this is what minds like you have ruined badly.

Secular countries, although they are enemies of Islam, still take care to a considerable extent for all those muslims who are their community. This is because they are secular for their own citizens. If they are harsh/bad for other nations this is again for the sake of their residents. The treatment which Pakistanis working in so-called religious countries like Pakistan or KSA get cannot even be dreamed for those who are residing in the so-called SECULAR countries. One should note the reason of the difference instead of rigidly commenting on the feelings of others who truthfully portray the facts.

Therefore, you must know that secularism is a blessing, at least in non-muslim countries. There are so many positive facets of secularism which we should also adopt. There is no harm in it. When Islam came so much positive, that was prevalent in Arab society, was as it is taken as a rule of Islamic society. This created the balance. In fact the balance supposed to be created by secularism (as you pointed out) is not dissimilar from the balance created by Islam in so many of its positive sides. I already told you that the good is for those who adopt it by giving it whatever name. All the advanced nations have adopted so much of Islam because they felt it good. Regrets for us who don't follow it and just talk and intend to spread destruction. Secularism is not a religion. Therefore, it cannot be criticized that way. It is human created ideology of social set-up and may be a mixture of good and bad.

You, in some earlier post, said that you want to kill each and every one of some religion followers and you did not agree that some one of them could be innocent. I also agree that those western nations are our enemy. This is not new. This was told to us by our Prophet PBUH. Still for example if they decide to kill each and every muslim, would it be a great act at their part? This has to be understood because we are not empowered at this stage. If they are cruel at some part of muslim world, we must not forget this is because we are illiterate, backward, incompetent, poor and dependent. And at the most such muslim world (like Saddam and Talibaan) by their own hands created the reasons for them to penetrate and such rigid muslims are continuing to maintain this opportunity for them by promoting the idea of rigidity further like your fellows are doing in Pakistan. This is aimed at nothing except to prolong the reasons for their ships to stay in the gulf sea on our heads.

You talked about muslim Caliph and Halakoo in another thread. You compared that era of muslims with the current situation. To that extent I agree with what you have said. However, as you also promote the idea of talibaanism in this era, while quoting the example of Baghdad's Caliph and Changez Khan or Halakoo, you should have not forgotten that even at that time there were men who really fought for their nation with their hearts and faith but what happened? Do you know? Yes you know what happened, even the fact was that, muslims were not so weak as are in this era. They fought and were killed entirely. 1.4 million human cranium was used to make towers by Changez and his followers. Now if we know, we are not up to such fight, we are backward and incompetent, we cannot win by fighting so-called BEY TAIGH, we have MEERS inside us, our economies cannot survive for one week in such fights, (you have seen what happened when BB was killed), our enemy is much resourceful and can create towers by using millions of our skulls then what would be the result of such fight? Would we be able to get success by few guns, rockets and atom BUMBBIES (I call them playing balls) that are also gifted by such other advanced nations indirectly? Will such fight not lead to a whole destruction? Do you think otherwise? I wonder if you think otherwise. And if you say that such shahaadat would be the best destination then mind it, it may not be shahaadat, it could be a suicide. Islam did not aim at to make us to do it this way.

I would again say that there is no solution to this problem except to get progressed by being faithful, honest, progressive, hard working, constructive (rather than destructive), diplomatic and by doing all this to get all the technical and economic empowerment that is required for the needful. Once we will achieve it, we would be able to do what is desired from us.

Otherwise, if you (and we at large) don't understand it and keep on doing the same things, there would not be any one survived to curse on our mindset in the times to come. Mind it, when we would be surviving, what would be doing for ALLAH and ALLAH’s Deen? Aur agar ALLAH ko sirf hamaari jaano kee qurbaani required hoti tu woh Eid-ul-Azha par animals kee qurbaani naa maangtaa. Hamarai garndanein kaati jaatein. Agar sab kuch tabah he kar denaa required hai tu duniyaa ka aur Islam kaa purpose hee kiyaa hai Naoozbillah? This is what you don't try to understand.


And I hope you cannot understand it.

Thank you for giving me various alleged names.

Readers, sorry for the lengthy post. And, yes I know this is just to smack the head against a stone.


Regards,



KAMRAN.

Kamran, has been quite appropriate in saying that Amir's posts are devoid of logic and as I read them on an ongoing basis,these are a source of amusement and at the same time of concern, for I fear more and more of our youth are falling into this trap and propoganda.

Amir, I would suggest you do some research on the ideology and history of Pakistan. You also need to understand what the difference is between an Islamic (I don't believe we as a Muslim nation have been or presently are in a condition of creating an Islamic state, the only exceptions were Khulfae Rashedeen)Iqbal, Jinnah and all others were working for a Muslim state, read the original texts of their speeches (mostly in English)and not doctored versions in URDU for a better understanding. The word 'Islam' has been used as to identify the relegion of Muslims and not as the Caliphate or Islamic emirate that you are dreaming of. The objectives Resolution, that was passed on added to our first set of constitutions and the many thereafter was done so after Jinnah and Liaqat Ali Khan. All our relegious parties joined the bandwagon half heartidly on to Pakistan, when there was no choice of staying in a United India!! They have been behind this propoganda and thanks to Zia ul Haq's era.

I would be interested in other people's view on this. Amir before you attempt to reply to this, please understand it is possible to be a good practising muslim living within a muslim majority, even if a secular state. That is how a billion plus muslims live today (and have been for 1400 years).

<font color="green"><font face="Verdana">Assalamoalaikum Warahmatullah-e-Wabarakatuhu,

Haye haye pracs..aakhri line nahee likhni chahiye thii. Khair
Waisay Kamran aur Amir bhai dono k liye aik hadith hai zara dhiyaan se parhein.

Raool Allah SAW ne farmaya Tum mein se koi us waqt tak momin nahee jab tak k uski zaban aur haath se doosra musalmaan mehfooz na ho.

Socho kia aap dono zaban se aik doosray ko beizzat nahee kar rahay? aur pracs bhai...jalti pe tail na dalo yaar. Jhagra khatam karna seekho.. barhaana nahee.. takabbur mitti chatta deta hai.

Teenon mein se kisi ko kuch bura laga ho muafi chahooonga.

</font id="Verdana"></font id="green">

Dear Shahbaz,

The requirement that "Zuban aur hath sey doosra musalman safe rahey" is the basic issue. I just want that the muslims should at least remain safe from the other muslims. This is the main theme of the whole discussion. The opponent idea is to crush every one without differentiating and without considering limitations, restrictions and problems.

However, the effort to abstain the prevalence of non-sense is not aimed at to harm any other muslim. This is to answer the non-sense. It is a discussion and I typically don't tend to involve the others personally or hit some one's personality. There could be some minor departures of this principle of mine due to the reasons beyond the control and such reasons are visible to every one bearing brain and mind.

Pracs nowhere fueled the topic. Like myself, he also has difference of concepts with Amir and such difference has to go on. This difference has not arisen so shortly in the history as some guys depict in their exclamations. This could be seen for the centuries. Extremism and moderate-ism prevails from centuries. Moderate-ism is not to be messed up with US or Musharraf's acts because they have been using this word for their own agendas and benefits. Moderate-ism was the basic message of Islam. We have been told to adopt the mid-ways. Just go to the meanings of MODERATE. These are “reasonable’’, “modest”, “judicious”, “sensible”, “temperate” etc. This is what humanity ideally wishes and this is the basic message of Islam. This is not an abuse.

So the difference of extremism and moderate-ism will go on and you can see that ones who prefer moderate-ism would appear more logical, mature, disciplined, affectionate, amiable and understandable.

I once again say that this should not be messed up with the moderate-ism being stressed by US or Musharraf. Instead, this means the moderate-ism which is desired by Islam.

Further, I don't find anything wrong or beyond the reality, in the last line of the post of Pracs. Do you?

Regards,


KAMRAN.

Again your rubbish post was lengthy in words but free from logic and fully biased against islam. You told us that secularism is a system to handle the society not a divine religion but what would you say about the verses of Qura'an-E-Krim and Ahadees(if you have believe in them) where Allah(S.W.T) and our Prophet(P.B.U.H) says that Islam has dealt everything in Quran and Seerat-e-Muttahirah and Allah has completed this religion for all muslims, which means that Allah has guided us everything relating to our life from our birth till death and not only life but also about the next stages of "BRZAKH" and "MEHSHAR". What would you say about the Hadees where our Prophet(P.B.U.H) says that He is leaving only two things(i.e Quran and Sunnat) among people. Islam is the only religion which devotes its 80% teachings towards general social relations and rest of the 20% towards "EBADAAT". Islam is the only religion which orders its followers to give respect and asylum to the followers of other religions as long as they do not commit any offence on you in which case Jehad will become "FARZ". Islam is the only religion which addresses every part of the life including Political, Economical and social aspects. So, my question is that, is there any need to adopt any parallel man made system even after having a lucid, divine and God gifted system in the form of Shariat-e-Islami which can only be implemented through "KHILAFAT".


On the other hand, Secularism was mainly desired to dilute the importance of religion in western societies because of too much gap between the teachings of priests (i.e. "REHBNIAT" based theology) and their social needs. Now, if you think islam has not dealt everything in Quran and Seerat-E-Aqdas then no one can refrain you from accepting the Secular teachings. As far as penetration of secularism in western countries is concerned this is again because of their theological and spiritual inconsistency which does not able to give direction to their societies and the only reason behind this is that the religion of priests is fake and false and this is why Islam is also penetrating very quickly in these societies.

You both are advocating the idea of secularism in muslim countries because you think it will serve the cause in similar way as it is doing in the western countries but why you forget that their(Western Countries) religions are incomplete, incompetent, unreliable and inadequate in addressing the issues relating to their social life and therefore they need to develop a workable system which they did in the name of secularism(A man made system) but this is not the case with islam(A divine System) because Allah has already addressed each and every issue in the holy Quran. So, there is no need to develop a parallel system.

I am once again saying that technological, educational, economical and strategic aspects are of pivotal importance and they should not be compromised but Jehad should be the base point for all these developments in an Islamic country which can only become possible through "KHILAFAT" not through so called "JAMHORIAT" or "SECULARISM" otherwise the example of turkey contains lot of lesson for us.

Not all pakistnies want to leave Pakistan for USA and other western countries but there is a small minority which includes nauseating people of your category whose only task is to earn money and world otherwise majority of the people do not even want to stay a single day in Dar-ul-Kufar(Western Countries).

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><b> You, in some earlier post, said that you want to kill each and every one of some religion followers and you did not agree that some one of them could be innocent. </b><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<b>
I admit that I used the word "All Jews" in that referred post. However, I should not use the word "All Jews" instead I should have used the word "All Zionists" in that post. There is a big difference between Jews and Zionists, all Zionists are Jews but all Jews are not Zionists and those non Zionist Jews are exempted from what I said regarding them in some other thread. I hope you can not understand this concept.</b>

Dear Shahbaz, this Mr KamranACA is injecting his evil, Satan and obnoxious thoughts in muslim youth, he seems to me a member of "free masons movement" or "Fifth Column of US" who has been given a task to promote deterrence(i.e. to make people afraid) from Jehad. His task is to make people astray in the name of secularism and so called Moderatism. This blind and deaf person is saying Taliban, Alqaidah and Saddam Shaheed as terrorists, he is continually abusing these warriors of Allah who are fighting against the swine American crusaders and other mercenaries of west like NATO. This shows his inner rancour against Islamic renaissance movements and Mujhedeens. He might be offering "GHAIBANA NAMAZ-E-JANZA" of "SHAHEED AMERICAN TROOPS". So, we have to beware of these people who are working in the interests of America and Israel.

May Allah protect us from the propaganda of this repulsive servile and sycophant of bush and Co.

At Mr Parcha, Parcha sahib "GORIE CHAMRIE" walon kay sath rehtay hoay banda bad demagh ho hi jata hay aakhir in "GORIE CHAMRIE" waloon ki namak halali bhi to karni hay.

) Aap dono so called qabil hazraat ki posts parh k aaj mujhe lafz 'Parhay likhay jahil' ki samajh aagai. Yaar hadd hai. Saukanon ki tarha lar rahay ho dono. Hadith sun k bhi chup nahee hotay. Itni si bhi sharam nahee hai. Pata nahee kyun aisay logon ko PROFESSIONAL bana dia jata hai jab k in logon ko Rasool Allah S.A.W. ki baat ki bhi parwa nahee. Anaa parast log. Bhonko jitna bhonkna hai. Mein ab waqai tum dono se baat nahee karoonga. Izzat raas hi nahee tumhein.

Yaar Tum Khuah ma Khuah mujh par ghussa kar rahay hoo. Tum maslay ki nazakat ko samajh nahi rahaay hoo.

This haughty man Mr KamranACA becomes very naive. He spurs me wittingly to give clarifications from my side and even after receiving vivid responses from my side he always tries to degrade Mujhedeens. Remember, this not my personal fight and I have always tried to stand for the great cause for Ummah and mind it I can not see the destruction of our youth by any planted agent of whatever agency who tries to inject his cruel and nauseating agenda in muslim and pakistni youth because this is my duty to defend my Ummah and country.

Long live Jehad, Long live Mujahedeen, Long live Ummah and Long live Pakistan.

Dears,


This was what I actually pointed out as “Jahaalat” embedded in the thinking of those who at large call themselves religious in Pakistan. Amir so oftenly don't think what he is writing and eventually corrects his own uttered garbage subsequently. This differentiation between Jews and Zionists clarified by his wise-self is one such example. No wonder if I start debating Zionists with him, he will once again change his stance. He is habitual of doing this. No wonders.

Rest of mess created by the above two guys is also reflective of their mental capacity and carries no wonders at all. The madness when reaches at this stage becomes incurable I think. I will not abuse any of the above two guys because I don't have learnt to do so. SHAHBAZ, MY BROTHER, FORGOT THE GUIDELINE OF THE HADEES WHICH WAS RECENTLY QUOTED BY HIS OWN HANDS. This is again amazing and one must feel something about the difference in teachings and doings at his part. We should remember that we have been told not to prohibit a child from eating sweets if we have ourselves eaten them. I just want people to see what the so-called (closed-ended) religious minds are? People should know the facts on ground. These are the reasons that took us to the point where we are. No body else has any fault.

No muslim can disagree that Quran and Sunnah is the best guideline for muslims. Still, if we learn how each of the Khulfaa-e-Rashideen R.Z. have ruled their tenures, we will find so many differences of treatments and methodologies. When we come to Ahadees (that is in fact the explanation of Quran and Sunnah), we find very dissimilar interpretations on so many aspects in various books of Ahadees. This is another issue that we call some Ahadees as Zaeef and some as true. Some of our religious leaders don't even feel God's fear in calling very respectable names among Sahaba-e-Karam and Tabeh Taabe'een as fabricators of Ahadees. [NAOOZBILLAH]. When we further come down to Imaams we further find variety of explanations and methodologies and the disputed issues had been enormous. At the end when we come down the track to the level of Ulema, we find hell of differences in their opinions, methodologies, decisions, fatawa's and so on.

This is not as simple and as emotional as has been tried to be explained by Amir. Just as an example when Qadiyaanies were declared non-muslims, it is the written history that how difficult it proved to be to define the term Muslim. The definition given by each sect of Ulemas was rendering all others as non-muslim. No one was exception. This is a recorded fact. Every one who has doubt should study what actually happened. I have so many times referred such religious ones to study their own history. THAT'S WHY I ALWAYS SAID THAT THIS ACHIEVEMENT WAS ONLY AND ONLY DUE TO BHUTTO'S WISDOM, A CLEAN SHAVED MAN, (irrespective of whatever he was) AND NO AALIM SHOULD BE GIVEN CREDIT FOR THE RESOLUTION OF THIS MATTER.

So, the things require the application of mind. If Quran and Sunnah is the only interpretation then who will decide that which Sunnah and which Hadees and which interpretation was correct and which was fabricated. If this has been the one thing in hand then why the incidence of Imam Hussain Raziallah Ta'ala took place. If this is the only thing to be followed then why there occurred so many conflicts in the outset of Islamic history which took the precious lives of thousands of most noble muslims of that era including three KHULFAA-E-RASHIDEEN RAZIALLAH ANHUMA. If every thing is to be resolved so simply then what was the need of Fiqah's and specially the varying Fiqah's for various sects of Muslims? I know nothing could be understood to illiterate ones.

If the solution is so simple then why Amir and I differ? I don't call him agent of any one as I know this is fool's escape but how he can call me and any one else as agent of other lobbies. This all is just because we have to find out the solution and we have real differences. If solution was so simple then what was the reason of creation of approaches like Taaliban and Anti-Taaliban. Quran and Sunnah are of course the most important guidelines but these require interpretation and explanation more specifically in practical terms. So many Ulemas are trying to do it from ages. Therefore, one must note that this is not as simple as has been concluded.

I stressed that secularism has taken so much from Islamic concepts e.g adopting peace, welfare and mid-ways, which we are lacking in our own societies. We need to find it out. The concept of FALAHI HAKOOMAT adopted by western countries is of initial Muslim state. We can find basic guidelines in Quran but we don't find its practical implementation in the time of Prophet PBUH because there was no settled state at that time. Rather we see its implementation in the era of Hazrat Umer Bin Khattab R.Z. This was a best practice and we cannot leave it calling that it was not a part of Sunnah. This is what I want to point out and what requires application of mind. Western nations have taken this concept for their own nations and we have left it. This has now been made part of secularism and we the muslims, who were its founders are now lacking it just because of the mindsets reflected by people like Amir. This is one of such examples which I see the secularism and west has taken from Islam. We should have no shame in adopting it back. Should we have Amir? There could be so many other examples.

I also quote a Hadees to which Amir can say Zaeef or Fabricated but it is a Hadees to my belief

"HIKMAT KE BAAT MOMAN KE GUMSHUDA MEERAS HAI".

We have been advised to adopt whatever beneficial and logical could we observe generally. Islam is very open. No other religion can even have any comparison with its peacefulness, sweet and logical approach and adoptability in specific circumstances.

I can however understand how difficult this meritorious point is for some one to get hold of.

I once told my brother Goodman, that, the dirty language used by others cannot abstain me from doing my job. After-all some one has to take the responsibility. Dirty language simply depict the dirt of others and do not as such affect me. I have already quoted what has been guided by the Sunnah.

May Allah bless us to understand what he desires from us. Of course every fact is only known to Allah.


Regards,



KAMRAN.

I have serious reservations on your mental capacity to understand some simple things and you also seem to me a psychopathic case. Mudslinging on others is your occupation and your ill-will towards other people who have difference of opinion with you is now apparent. You always taunt others as intolerants but you never see your own acts. Furthermore, you yourself create chaos on this forum and then start hullabaloo against others, this is not new for those who visit this forum. One quality which you posses and I should also appreciate is your topic slewing ability, when you see things are out of your control or you have just a little knowledge of subject matter then you suddenly turn the topic towards some other matters and again this is not new for us.

In a nutshell, in your previous post, you want to say that because there are various interpretations of Ahadees and Seerat-e-Tayyeba and because of difference of treatments and methodologies used by Khulafa-e-Rashedeen, Tabieen, Taba Tabaieen, Aima-e-Kram and then by Ulema of different sects, we should left Quran-O-Sunnat aside and start following Secularism because there is no conflict in the teachings of your beloved George Holyoke and other theorists of secularism. Another point which is raised by you and is quite often raised by other secularists who are living in our Islamic country "Pakistan"(which is one of those two countries in today's world whose basis is religion, the second one is Israel whose state religion is Jewish) is that what interpretation and more importantly whose interpretation is reliable in order to implement Islamic laws in Pakistan. Ulema-e-Kram of various sects know that Israeli Secularists and Propagandists like you will raise similar concerns, so, in order to rebut this presumption they (Ulema of various sects) sat together and they prepared a comprehensive report with their consensus but due to some internal conspiracies of your fellow secularists and external pressure on the government, the governments of General Zia-Ul-Haq Shaheed(Rehmatullah-e-Allieh) and second tenure of Nawaz Sharif were unable to implement Islamic laws in Pakistan.

As far as the event of declaration of "Qadyanies" as "Kafir" is concerned, no doubt this is the most important decision in the history of Pakistan and no doubt that credit goes to Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto but saying that no Alim should be given a credit for his efforts is once again indicting your hatred feelings against Religious Scholars and those words are not written by you but actually your inside devil has written them. Were those thousands of people who were martyred in this movement belonged to Bhutto's PPP or to these Alims? Were those thousands of people who were jailed and tortured in this movement belonged to Bhutto's PPP or to these Alims? I haven't seen extremely shameful person than you who can twist the history for his personal benefits or for the benefits of his fellow secularists, Quran-e-Karim has used the word "KAZIBEEN" for these people. You talked about so many things but you have never shown any proof to me, same was the case when I asked you to show me a proof of Hafiz Saeed incident and about your fabricated Hadees related to China and I bet you can not show me a proof of your shameless statements that you frequently made in this forum including your current statement regarding your self-made conflict that was created on the definition of "Muslim".

You have said that Western societies have taken so much from Islam. There is no doubt in this that western societies have taken so much from Islam but still they have not taken every thing of Islam. They only took what suits them. But on the other hand, Allah (S.W.T) has strongly prohibited this act by declaring it as "NAFS PARSTI" and Allah says, "Deen May Poray Kay Poray Dakhil Ho Jao". Islam orders to cut the hands of thieves but western societies and their sycophant secularists like you often label this punishment as barbaric. Similarly, Islam orders for RAJAM (i.e.SANGSAAR) if accused was found guilty of fornication with four evidences but western societies and their sycophant secularists often label this punishment as barbaric because according to them this is congenital right of humans Naozubillah. Similarly, Islam orders to kill Proselytes (those who repudiate after accepting Islam i.e. Murtad) but your beloved western societies declared this punishment as barbaric because according to them this is congenital right of any human Naozubillah.

I do not call you as agent of anti-Pakistan or anti-Islam lobbies just because I have disagreement with you but because I do have some strong evidences that support my suspicion. Members of "Free Masons Movement" and "Fifth Column of USA" were given a task to separate religion from administration and from politics in all countries irrespective of their state religion in the whole world and unfortunately you are wittingly or unwittingly working to fulfill this agenda. For the same reason, they have developed so many systems and frameworks and secularism is one of them. Please try to understand that these systems like secularism and capitalism are developed by anti-Islam lobbies but you shameless dumb are trying to prove it as the best adaptable system for the country that was made in the name of Islam. Fie upon you!

And please don't try to make this forum hell.

Dear Shahbaz I think you have already read the nuisance uttered by this haughty secularist in his last post for you, so, it's my request that please don't talk with this stubborn and impudent person. He dislikes anyone who even plays arbitrary and independent role and this conservative person thinks everyone as his foe.

Dear,


I already said that when madness touches this level there remains no cure. So no wonders on the garbage uttered out by your so-called religious mouth. I will therefore reply you on issues of principles and would try not to hit your personality unless warranted.

Now, if your eyes twist on various issues, this does not mean that issue has been twisted. The problem of you mullah category is that you have saved your brains for some other world. You just don't try to utilize the minds on complex issues which have manifold facets and every facet has to be kept in view when some critical things are analyzed. May your so-called religious category be using the "tongue" which I don't want to title here in the post. You can understand “whose tongue” is typically quoted for giving examples about the “tongue” you have conceived.

I give some replies hereunder

ISSUE OF HADEES

The Hadees about going to China for Knowledge is not found by me so far in 4 Sahi Books of Ahaadees and I still have to try the other three. There is of course a conflict on this Hadees and to study such a conflict I refer the readers to some URL

http//www.livingislam.org/n/skx_e.html

http//chinese-school.netfirms.com/Muslims.html

http//islaminchina.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/authenticity-of-seek-knowledge-even-as-far-as-china/


Although so manys believe it to be weak, still some noble and renowned AALIMS of HADEES like "Al-Mizzi" support it to be fair. There had been other strong Ahaadees on this issue which require muslims to seek knowledge from birth to death and which state that knowledge seeking is a must for muslims. I quote a Hadees narrated by Ibn Maajah from the hadeeth of Anas ibn Maalik, who said “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said ‘Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim.’” (220. Classed as sahi by al-Albaani in Sahi Sunan Ibn Maajah).

So, as far as the creation of this particular Hadees is concerned, probably your squint eyes cannot see that it has Naoozbillah not been created over-night. It has so many reporting chains. Many of the old scholars say that such chains are weak. I personally cannot say such words for the noble men who appear in those chains. However, to seek knowledge was the first message from God to his Prophet P.B.U.H in the Holy Quran.

Some scholars say that the opposition of this Hadees finds its roots in Salphi school of thought who wanted to keep the dominance of Arabs over others. However, God knows it better. I will check the other three Sahi Books and will come back to you, if I will find some reference.

I personally feel that this Hadees does not collide with the other Ahadees and teachings of Quran in general (the main evaluation criteria) therefore it does not carry major reasons to feel doubt about.

Still, the issue in not solely to go to China for knowledge. The main thing is the order to seek knowledge. As a matter of fact, if knowledge seeking is held obligatory on every muslim even then no Hadees says that don't go any where for seeking knowledge expect your place of birth or Saudi Arabia. My point still remains as valid as it is supposed to be. No Talibaan minded mad should fire out colleges and schools any where and no one should prohibit females from seeking knowledge. Nothing in teachings of Islam provides any basis for doing such ill-mannered things. You must be knowing that 135 plus schools/colleges have been fired out by Amir's category in Swat and nearby localities. This is their Islam and this is their belief. Still some one on this forum says that we should not fight such wild animals back. These people want to go back in the dark ages that were in existence before Islam.


FREEZING OF ASSETS OF CERTAIN TOPS OF LASHKAR-E-TAYYUBA

U.S. Treasury Department used Executive Order 13224 to freeze the American assets of four founders of the Pakistani terrorist group Lashkar-e-Tayyuba. I did not send you such proof because I felt this would even be visible to blinds because once something is on-aired in the media it cannot be hidden by poor efforts of Mullahs like you. I give you a URL to study the press release of "U.S. Department of Treasury".

http//www.treas.gov/press/releases/hp996.htm

If still a dumb mind does not digest this reality he can go to websites of any big news channel of Pakistan and try to find this news in search options. He will probably not face a failure. What I remember, probably it was also published by DAWN news. The Lashak-e-Tayyuba tops included in such order were

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed
Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi
Haji Muhammad Ashraf
Mahmoud Mohammad Ahmed Bahaziq

Do you innocent require further proof of such news? Mind it, the first question is not the truthfulness of such news or order. Rather, you were totally denying from the existence of such news/order. This shows how illiterate you are for your own purposes. I would request you not to deceive others by your “specific tongue” and don’t debate on the existence of the facts.


ISSUE OF FOLLOWING WHAT OTHERS DO

You again keep on portraying your mindset. No body anywhere said that if there are different treatments or methodologies or interpretations then we should Naoozbillah leave following what Islam says. This is the peak of Hat-Dharmi and closed minded-ness. I told you that so much has historically been done with the good intents and in consonance of the basic guidelines of Quran and Hadees by so many noble rulers and more specifically by Khulfaa-e-Rashideen R.Z. So many aspects were developed after the Wisaal of Prophet PBUH. Tadween of the Holy Quran done by Hazrat Usman Raziallah Tala’la is one such example. Islam does not ask to close the eyes, shut down the lights of the brain and then follow what is told. This is a thing to be understood.

I told you that secularism has taken so much from Islam. I no where said Islam (original text) has taken anything from this very secularism. However, I believe that when Islam came in Arab, whatever positive was prevalent in that society (that was even worst than secularism as a whole) was taken and whatever negative was embedded in that culture was un-rooted. This had out rightly been the approach of every system improvement. This had been used at the out-set of Islam and a broad basis was given to muslims of all times to adopt whatever positive and wise thing they observe in others. “HIKMAT KEE BAAT MOMAN KE GUMSHUDA MEERAS HAI”. So, not the everything, but the good things which we lack in our society, not because Islam does not guide about them, rather because we the people of various sects cannot get on one point, observed in others, should be adopted and followed. I have no doubt in it.

If we become so strict on this issue, with the behavior you people show to the other world, then we should not use medicines, surgery techniques, advanced scientific and other education, research, and innovations and at a minimum the consumables and other products invented or fund out by other nations just because these were not done in the era of Prophet PBUH. So, if these are not prohibited being the useful things, then the other positive aspects of a society should also not be prohibited, if we don’t have consensus at our own home or we are unable to find the resolutions.

After this explanation, still there remains a problem for you to understand i.e. this requires utilization of open brain to get hold of, while you have saved it for some other world.

For saying Zia-ul-Haq as “Shaheed” and as “Rehmatullah-e-Allieh” accept my Mashallah. Aur yeh internal conspiracies buhat ziyaada hoti hain mullah kay kaam kay against. Hai naa? We have to think on it. )


DEFINITION OF MUSLIM AND PROCEEDINGS OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY IN 1974

You, as you have done in case of freezing of assets of certain person, just don’t want to accept the truth even if you know it by heart. For quoting you what has been written by the writers and critics of that period and what newspapers of 1974 reported I will again have to consume so much of my time. I will try to quote some books where such things have been clearly quoted. However, you just go to some of your Aalims who were involved in whole of that process and ask him/them to tell you FAITHFULLY what actually happened. If there would be some faith, you will come to know what I have pointed out. If still you don’t find the facts, I will spare some time for you Inshallah.

As far as Bhutto’s credit is concerned, when you will find the truth about above story you will reach the conclusion. Kiyaa aaj bhi Qaazi Hussain Ahmed yaa Fazal-ur-Rehman iss qaabil hain keh kuch is tarah kee development karwaa lain? Yahi haal tab bhi thaa. We basically need some progressive educated leader to solve our problems and that’s what we lack at the moment. Further, keep in mind that credit always goes to the person who eventually resolves the issue. Who went to jails, and who did not, will never remain in the memories of the history. After 1857 so manys made the efforts but how the history saves the name of Mr. Jinnah is totally different than the others. If you minus the factor of Bhutto, then you may be able to see that this decision might have not been taken so far irrespective of whatever these Ulemas and other mullahs might have been saying or doing. You should not forget that these all people were having such demands since 1953 but eventually the task was completed and success was brought only by Bhutto. You may find the reason of the poetry of Haali who said “QAIS SA NA UTHA PHIR KOI BANI AAMIR MAIN”……“FAKHAR HOTAA HAI GHARAANEY KAA SADA AIK HE SHAKHS”. I may place on record that I am not belonged to PPPP politically.


GENERAL

You see I did not use following words for you in this post of mine

- psychopathic case
- Propagandists
- your inside devil
- extremely shameful
- KAZIBEEN
- shameless statements (with reference to making availability about news of freezing of assets)
- self-made
- anti-Pakistan or anti-Islam lobbies (pata nahi yeh saari lobbies apni saari baatein Amir ko kyun bata jata hein? Hai na ajeeb baat)
- you shameless dumb
- nuisance uttered (I used the word garbage instead)
- haughty secularist
- stubborn and impudent
- (finally) Fie upon you!


At the end I am thankful for reading this lengthy but necessary post.

Should now we expect some clarification regarding Hafiz Saeed and his fellows?


Regards,



KAMRAN.