interest and islam

[KJK]

Well Here I think that If a person buys a car for Rs.10,000 on credit,he should pay the same price unless the value of money has increased or decreased.It is just like a provision which a lender makes that an amount should be charged over the original price so that the increase or decrease in the value of money or effects of inflation can be compensated.

[Canadian Pakistani]

ASA everyone

I just read the whole discussion on this topic. I would like to add a few words here.

First of all, we must realize that the basis of Islam is "Iman". That's it. Even if we don't understand the reason behind a rule we have to accept it. There are some rules whose reason/justification we can understand, and there other rules we can't understand. This is because our knowledge and abilities are limited. Only Allah knows what is best. However, the more we study Islam, the more we understand the logic behind its rules. Further, there are many social and moral effects on society of our actions which we do not understand, but Allah knows and He has accordingly put forward rules.

Now, Riba is haraam. To my weak knowledge, Islam has not differentiated between interest and usury. Neither it has given the criteria for interest to be haraam to be exhorbitant/unjust. This is just part of the logic to interest's prohibition. There are some who say that Islam forbids usury but allows interest. But when I ask them what is the basis of this, then there is no answer.

Islam does not say that you can't have capital. Capital is a must. Islam only says that the remuneration of capital should not be based on interest, but on profit.

Also, the basis of transactions should be actual physical goods and services, not merely money being transfered from one hand to the other. Further, there should be some risk involved in the transaction, and not merely the credit risk.

There is a fine line between interest and profit. If you do it the correct way, it is halal, otherwise it is haraam. Just to give an example, the same act is halaal when married but otherwise it is haraam. When you are married you are responsible for everything, wife, kids and their social/moral behaviour also. Similarly, there could apparently the same transaction but one is halaal and the other is haraam.

For example, giving loan on interest to someone for buying an asset is haraam. But financing someone on morabaha is halaal. Some of the reason for this is that morabaha is itself based on an asset. The financier must first buy the asset and then sell it to the debtor. This involves financier's risk in the asset, though for a short time. Islam allows that a person could fix any price for an asset. (obviously, that price has to be market driven, otherwise the seller would be out of business). It is also allowed that the seller could charge different prices for sale on cash and sale on credit. This is because in credit sale charging premium for credit risk, market risk, opportunity cost is allowed.

The mullahs and moulanas are not against interest just for the sake of objection, but because of hurmat of it. It seems to be a fashion these days of critizing mullahs for everything. Someone said that the molanas don't come for rescue of poor peasants and fishermen. I don't know what kind of rescue is expected by that person. I have great respect for ulemas and molanas in general, recognizing that some mullahs, like the rest of us, are corrupt. But what they have not done is come up with practical solutions for dealing with modern, large businesses. Admirable work has been done by people like Molana Taqi Usmani, but a lot more work is required to be done. Instead of criticizing them we should present the problem to the ulemas and ask for their solution. Obviously, like in any field, not all ulemas are expert in all aspects of Islam. So for financial/economic issues, we should contact the relevant experts, e.g. Molana Taqi Usmani, for their solution.


Regards,

[Augustus]

Salaam
I totally agree with you Canadian Pakistani and infact u have said what was in my mind but i shall only like to add certain things.
We actually now a days contacts Mullas and Moulanas for our problems and we want the solutions accordting to our expectations, if they don't answer what we want we simply say these persons are backward or not up-to-date and bla bla.
As you have mentioned Maulana Taqi Usmani ... i must say other readers to read his articles which are available on this site and u will find that islam gives the solution of every problem in it's own way, not the way we want.

[Pracs]

Agreed with Canadian Pakistani and Augustus,.. but who is going to find the way out... little of shariah compliant banking that we have is not designed to be implemented en mass.. so what is the solution,? We cannot just shirk out of the Banking system all together.....

[Augustus]

well Pracs i agree with u that it's not good to shift from today's banking system to sharia banking system but we should start strengthening our islamic banking system at the same time like Meezan Bank, Albaraka Bank etc ... as u must be very well aware of the fact that due to growing power of the local pakistani people each and every bank including foreign banks are opening their islamic system here in pakistan.
Islam dosn't allow us to be extermist, but we should gradually make our own system depending on our local customs and shariah rules and i m sure all these companies and banks will definetly work on such systems too

[Canadian Pakistani]

At present we just can't reject the present banking system and adopt an "Islamic" system. What is needed is an active work deliberating on the subject, starting with the issues identified in the Federal Shariah Court judgment.

I think ICAP should take lead and join together with ICMAP, SBP and agencies like Islamic Council or Islamic Idealogy Council to work together in finding solution and ways and means to fully convert the banking system to an Islamic system. Careful review should also be made of the so-called Islamic banking system in Saudi Arabia, Malaysia and other countries/banks.

[Azeem Shah Khan]

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>





hi

although i m not completely sold but yes all in all ur assessment is right.

thing which we should bear in our minds is that we cannot implement bits and pieces of Islam depending on our likings. we can only implement Islamic economic policies when we have TRUE SHARIA in place(yes TRUE not a traditional MULLAH driven Sharia) which has no scope for "Ijtehaad" and that doesn't account for the modern age. it doesn't mean that we should change sharia but we should implement the jist of it.

o do respect Ulama-e-Deen who are learned and have contributed alot, but if we look at our corner Mosque Maulanas they dont leave an impression u would like to see.

in order to understand diff b/w Interest & Riba and whether it is Haram or Halal backed by reasons - i would again strongly advise all of u to read a book called "SOOD" by Maulana Maudoodi.

CANADIAN PAKISTANI - i m not too sure if u r right to say that whatever we are told we should accept without reasoning - atleast Islam doesnt allow us to become a Blind Follower and constantly asks us to use our BRAINS for the logics. i dont have to quote Quranic cerses for that.

Kind Regards

azeem <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I just read the whole discussion on this topic. I would like to add a few words here.

First of all, we must realize that the basis of Islam is "Iman". That's it. Even if we don't understand the reason behind a rule we have to accept it. There are some rules whose reason/justification we can understand, and there other rules we can't understand. This is because our knowledge and abilities are limited. Only Allah knows what is best. However, the more we study Islam, the more we understand the logic behind its rules. Further, there are many social and moral effects on society of our actions which we do not understand, but Allah knows and He has accordingly put forward rules.

Now, Riba is haraam. To my weak knowledge, Islam has not differentiated between interest and usury. Neither it has given the criteria for interest to be haraam to be exhorbitant/unjust. This is just part of the logic to interest's prohibition. There are some who say that Islam forbids usury but allows interest. But when I ask them what is the basis of this, then there is no answer.

Islam does not say that you can't have capital. Capital is a must. Islam only says that the remuneration of capital should not be based on interest, but on profit.

Also, the basis of transactions should be actual physical goods and services, not merely money being transfered from one hand to the other. Further, there should be some risk involved in the transaction, and not merely the credit risk.

There is a fine line between interest and profit. If you do it the correct way, it is halal, otherwise it is haraam. Just to give an example, the same act is halaal when married but otherwise it is haraam. When you are married you are responsible for everything, wife, kids and their social/moral behaviour also. Similarly, there could apparently the same transaction but one is halaal and the other is haraam.

For example, giving loan on interest to someone for buying an asset is haraam. But financing someone on morabaha is halaal. Some of the reason for this is that morabaha is itself based on an asset. The financier must first buy the asset and then sell it to the debtor. This involves financier's risk in the asset, though for a short time. Islam allows that a person could fix any price for an asset. (obviously, that price has to be market driven, otherwise the seller would be out of business). It is also allowed that the seller could charge different prices for sale on cash and sale on credit. This is because in credit sale charging premium for credit risk, market risk, opportunity cost is allowed.

The mullahs and moulanas are not against interest just for the sake of objection, but because of hurmat of it. It seems to be a fashion these days of critizing mullahs for everything. Someone said that the molanas don't come for rescue of poor peasants and fishermen. I don't know what kind of rescue is expected by that person. I have great respect for ulemas and molanas in general, recognizing that some mullahs, like the rest of us, are corrupt. But what they have not done is come up with practical solutions for dealing with modern, large businesses. Admirable work has been done by people like Molana Taqi Usmani, but a lot more work is required to be done. Instead of criticizing them we should present the problem to the ulemas and ask for their solution. Obviously, like in any field, not all ulemas are expert in all aspects of Islam. So for financial/economic issues, we should contact the relevant experts, e.g. Molana Taqi Usmani, for their solution.


Regards,

[tery_batman]

salam
well aik bari ajeb si guftugo ko sunnay ka ittifaq hoa k interest haram hay k halal
bari mazrat k sath kuch log muhatram alamas ko maulana aur mulla kah kar un ka mazaq uranay ki koshish bhi kartay hoy pay gay.
janab ap sab say aik sawal mujhay ya bata day k ap may say kitno nay quran tafser aur tarjumay say parha hoa hay kitno ko bhukari sharif ati hay.
apna professional paper jo aik insan ka banaya hoa hay bagair teacher ki madad say hota nahi islam ko jo Allah pak ka deen hay bagair kisi alim k samaghnay chalay hian.
janab sachi bat to ya hay k .
zina bara gunah hay.
jhoot bara gunah hay
geebat bara gunah hay
walaydain ki nafarmani bara gunah hay
chori bara gunah hay
phir in sab ka wabal "Allah aur Us k Rasool say jang k barabar kiun nahi" is liyay ki sab gunaho may aik ya do banday mutasir hotay hain ziada nahi laikin sood say pori society suffer karti hay.
janab masla ya hay k agar may bol do k aj ka dor may zinah do banday bahimi razamandi say kar rahy hain to maulvi hazrat us ko allow kar dain aur us ka nam change kar dain to aisa nahi ho sakta same the case with interest agar dono parties agree hain bhi aur khush bhi hain laikin sood sood hi rahay ga.
umeed hay k bat samagh ay ho gi
Allah knows the best
salam

WHAT MATTER MOST IS HOW YOU SEE YOURSELF

[Kaash_ACMA]

Aadaab arz hai ,, well Ms. tery batman,,, aap nay bohat si baatein theek ki hain ,,, that was not bad,,, magar yeh bhie tau socho kay jo log mulla or maulaana kehtay hain us kay peechay logic kia ,, kiunkay yeh maulaana khud apni baat kay pakkay hotay nahin hain ,,, theek hai aisa nahin kehna chahiye kay kon kiya hai ALLAH BEHTAR JAANTA HAI BESHAK,,, ab dekho ek doosray kay peecchay namaaz padhnay ko mana karnay waalay Iqtidaar kay liye aaj MMA ki soorat main ek hain ya nahin ,,,,,, this is just an example yaar...... never mind at all. okies,,,,

Never look back If you wanna do something,,, but sometimes do it for ur heart,,,

[Kaash_ACMA]

waisay ek baat kehna chahoonga ,,,,I hav read some of the posts ,,, woh yeh kay ,,, Profit haraam nahin hai ,,, jo financing pay mil raha hai ,,, magar Interest bahar haraam ,,, jo kay suud ki soorat main liya ja raha hai ,,,,

Never look back If you wanna do something,,, but sometimes do it for ur heart,,,

[Pracs]

I think no one on this thread ever doubts the fact that RIBA is haram.. the question ise that we cannot close our eyes on the truth,.. today's economic and social world is based on interest,.. our challange is to bring the financial and economic system within the helm of Islamic principles... we as the financial community are lethargic of the fact that so less 'IJTIHAD' is undertaken to address the issue. That is where we blame the mullahs and the scholars of Islam, they have put in more energies on issues of trivial matter than this one. Undoubtdly a lot of work has been undertaken and more is in the pipeline. Fifty plus Muslim countries who represent a billion plus muslims follow interest based economies, some have introduced parallel shariah compliant banking systems.. we hope that this spills over into the mainstream...

For Sure Allah knows better.

"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311

[Azeem Shah Khan]

YOUR COMMENT
"salam
well aik bari ajeb si guftugo ko sunnay ka ittifaq hoa k interest haram hay k halal
bari mazrat k sath kuch log muhatram alamas ko maulana aur mulla kah kar un ka mazaq uranay ki koshish bhi kartay hoy pay gay.
janab ap sab say aik sawal mujhay ya bata day k ap may say kitno nay quran tafser aur tarjumay say parha hoa hay kitno ko bhukari sharif ati hay."


MY ANSWER

Walaikum assalaam terry_batman

first of all Maulana/Mullah is not a SWEAR word, secondly nobody is trying to make fun of them instead many of them act in a way where we should not only question but also rectify them then and there.

we all respect learned Ulma-e-din and are opposed to them who create confusion in the minds of layman. it is not their fault....infact it is our fault because we want an EASY WAY OUT by saying unless we have read and memorised Quran and Bukhari sharif we cannot question anyone. Allhumdulillah i have read Quran with translation and where-ever needed refered to other books for detailed explanation. it doesnot make me un-questionable though and it is not necessary that whatever i say is correct.

YOUR COMMENT
"apna professional paper jo aik insan ka banaya hoa hay bagair teacher ki madad say hota nahi islam ko jo Allah pak ka deen hay bagair kisi alim k samaghnay chalay hian.
janab sachi bat to ya hay k .
zina bara gunah hay.
jhoot bara gunah hay
geebat bara gunah hay
walaydain ki nafarmani bara gunah hay
chori bara gunah hay"


MY ANSWER

Who told u that u cannot understand Quran unless you have learned all the Islamic books......and who told you that all Maulanas know everything and whatever they say is correct. Why dont you beleive in Maulanas who belong to the other sect for eg if you are a Sunni why dont you believe in a Shia Maulana or if you belong to Barelwi Maslak why dont you believe in Deo-bundi Maulana......AFTERALL THEY ARE ALL ULMA-E-DEEN and have definitley read Quran and MEMORISED Sahi-Bukhari.

i bet if u start reading Quran and its translation you won't find it as difficult as many PEOPLE say it is. i believe being brought up in Pakistan we all have the pre-requisite knowledge to understand the background....and whenever u are not sure u can always refer to other books and ofcource learned Maulanas.

my friend YOU will be answerable to your own deeds and nobody else. we cant just blindly follow whatever maulanas say. we have to look at the basis and reasoning of it and ask for Allah's help to guide us. we should be clear in our intentions that we want to understand the TRUTH.

as far as RIBA is concerned i would like to know YOUR point of view. u said SOOD is haram because Quran says it is haram. can i ask u to define Sood? or differentiate b/w Sood and Riba?

we are not saying that Riba is Halal - we are just trying to work out what it is? is it really what Quran has explicitly prohibited or is it something else...........

i hope my comments will make my point very clear to u, we have nothing against any maulana and ofcource none of us can afford to challenge the ultimate guide Quran.

Kind Regards

Azeem

[Pracs]

Just to add to Azeem's view on Quran - it is the easiet book believe me,, just get a good translation and explanation.. my favourite is the one by Abdullah Yusuf Ali...

"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311

[Azeem Shah Khan]

would love to see more replies on this forum.

dont know why people hesitate to discuss it.

Pracs haven't read that translation, will try to get a copy on my trip to Pakistan this winter.

i like Maulana Maudoodi's translation..........i know many people dont like him and his contributions due to MANY reasons but as far as his work is concerned i found it very practical.

also please read his book on RIBA - it will shock you!!! it was amazing the way he explained the subject in so many dimensions.

regards

[tery_batman]

salam
dost may kuch kaho ga aur behas barhay gi
sirf itni si bat k Allah pak hum sab ko hidayat dain aur sirat-e-mustaqeem par chalain(ameen)
ap bus itna samagh lo k is deen ko may apni marzi ka nahi kar sakta.

salam


WHAT MATTER MOST IS HOW YOU SEE YOURSELF