12-25-2008, 10:01 PM
Gents,
I think the objective of this thread was to discuss if ICAP's decision to sign off on the MOU was appropriate and what future developments this will entail to, sadly I see that this has turned into an ACCA vs ICAP bashing thread, for which I must say we have a separate 'dedicate' thread. My personal thoughts are available on that thread and I will not go into details.
I would also like to appeal to 'professional and ethical' sense of all members by not hitting their opponents below the belt and for the record I would like to reiterate here that Mr. Kamran is a qualified ACA and a practicing accountant which means he has a more ready grip on how the profession is developing in Pakistan and I respect him for his views. Kamran is also a very active member in adding to the knowledge of the members of this forum on technical matters, so hats on to him for that. (For those who are going to draw their daggers on this, please bear me but those are facts, although I do not know Kamran personally but his posts over the last couple of years on this forum depicts that he is a level headed professional)
Having said that I do not necessarily agree with Kamran's interpretation of this recent MOU. I also am not in agreement with Mourneflower and Cos point of view as I think (and you may correct it) that their purpose of this discussion lacks objectivity, you know you oppose this but for the wrong reason. Your obsession is an anti ICAP stand, which I may say is not healthy. Enough judgment on my part here are my two cents
I think the MOU is a move towards the right step but as all things Pakistani it fell short of effective bargaining with ICAEW. I can understand that ICAP being a third world professional institute (although producing first world quality professional accountants)had some constraints but feel could have done better. I can understand where ICAEW is coming from. I will list these down
-their mainstay would have been the fact that not all ICAP members come in with a graduate degree (even with those who do its a two year affair) as opposed to a three year rigorous degree that all British members have to go through. Point taken, but how is that ICAEW signed another agreement with ICAI (the Indian institute)with very reasonable requirements, ie an Indian CA with 2 year post qualification are eligible to sit for similar exams ! it may sound similar to ICAP members requiring 2 years of further training, but its not because that leaves ICAP member in a sorry state of affairs ie they will have to sign off for a specific training contract (a choice of very few employers) and I am sure on a pittance of remuneration compared to the prospect of joining any other employer (industry or other professional exams). See below for details of the MOUs with both ICAP and ICAEW
<b>ICAP</b>
http//www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/150996/icaew_ga/en/Home/About_us/Press_releases/ICAEW_and_ICAP_Announce_Training_Programme_in_Pakistan
<b>
ICAI</b>
http//www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/161951/icaew_ga/Qualifications/Train_for_the_ACA/ACA_international_India/FAQs_ICAI_joining_ICAEW/pdf
On paper the requirements for both Indian and Pakistani CAs is the same ie no degree is required, so from an academic point of view both members are on the same footing. From a professional perspective I (not letting my bias in) have worked with Indian CAs and I have Indian CAs working for me (along with SA, Australian and Scottish, English CAs) and I have found little difference in them, ie coming from similar backgrounds (Big4, banks etc.). The icing on the cake is however an average Pakistani CA compared to an average Indian CA, has better management skills, better knowledge (both IFRS- Indians have yet to adopt IFRS and auditing skills). The reason is simple, Pakistani CAs get a much harder time and the pass rates are some of the lowest in the world (meaning it takes more effort, knowledge and skill to pass the exams)
<i>My question is why this difference then, have we simply given up on ICAEW or did we not do our best or was it just a case of the Pakistani mentality et al 'the white man is superior and right'</i>
Living proof of our CAs being better than Indians (on an average) is the fact that they command better salaries than their Indian counterparts in the Gulf.
-the second thing which is not central to the purpose of this discussion but that has come along on, is how the ICAEW will actually fair in Pakistan. As some of you know I am member of both ICAP and ACCA and all friends and colleagues that I know who are members of ACCA (Pakistani and British alike, very few Indians and ACCAs) have rebuked the thought of gaining membership of ICAEW because it does nothing for us (a waste of time and money) in terms of career. The reason why ICAEW has after a life time of rigid rules expanded on membership criteria is that they are loosing the game of numbers to ACCA, hence the failed attempt to merge with CIMA (remember that!). Numbers are important for the purpose of future revenues for the Institute and keeping its place on decision making boards. So they are as desperate as us (ICAP/Pakistani accountants) to expand. We had a level playing field when it came to negotiating a reasonable MOU.
The joke around us is that although ICAEW does nothing for us in terms of career progression, we might have to take up on the offer if we were thinking of moving back to Pakistan or the Gulf. I think that sums it up all.
I think the objective of this thread was to discuss if ICAP's decision to sign off on the MOU was appropriate and what future developments this will entail to, sadly I see that this has turned into an ACCA vs ICAP bashing thread, for which I must say we have a separate 'dedicate' thread. My personal thoughts are available on that thread and I will not go into details.
I would also like to appeal to 'professional and ethical' sense of all members by not hitting their opponents below the belt and for the record I would like to reiterate here that Mr. Kamran is a qualified ACA and a practicing accountant which means he has a more ready grip on how the profession is developing in Pakistan and I respect him for his views. Kamran is also a very active member in adding to the knowledge of the members of this forum on technical matters, so hats on to him for that. (For those who are going to draw their daggers on this, please bear me but those are facts, although I do not know Kamran personally but his posts over the last couple of years on this forum depicts that he is a level headed professional)
Having said that I do not necessarily agree with Kamran's interpretation of this recent MOU. I also am not in agreement with Mourneflower and Cos point of view as I think (and you may correct it) that their purpose of this discussion lacks objectivity, you know you oppose this but for the wrong reason. Your obsession is an anti ICAP stand, which I may say is not healthy. Enough judgment on my part here are my two cents
I think the MOU is a move towards the right step but as all things Pakistani it fell short of effective bargaining with ICAEW. I can understand that ICAP being a third world professional institute (although producing first world quality professional accountants)had some constraints but feel could have done better. I can understand where ICAEW is coming from. I will list these down
-their mainstay would have been the fact that not all ICAP members come in with a graduate degree (even with those who do its a two year affair) as opposed to a three year rigorous degree that all British members have to go through. Point taken, but how is that ICAEW signed another agreement with ICAI (the Indian institute)with very reasonable requirements, ie an Indian CA with 2 year post qualification are eligible to sit for similar exams ! it may sound similar to ICAP members requiring 2 years of further training, but its not because that leaves ICAP member in a sorry state of affairs ie they will have to sign off for a specific training contract (a choice of very few employers) and I am sure on a pittance of remuneration compared to the prospect of joining any other employer (industry or other professional exams). See below for details of the MOUs with both ICAP and ICAEW
<b>ICAP</b>
http//www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/150996/icaew_ga/en/Home/About_us/Press_releases/ICAEW_and_ICAP_Announce_Training_Programme_in_Pakistan
<b>
ICAI</b>
http//www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/161951/icaew_ga/Qualifications/Train_for_the_ACA/ACA_international_India/FAQs_ICAI_joining_ICAEW/pdf
On paper the requirements for both Indian and Pakistani CAs is the same ie no degree is required, so from an academic point of view both members are on the same footing. From a professional perspective I (not letting my bias in) have worked with Indian CAs and I have Indian CAs working for me (along with SA, Australian and Scottish, English CAs) and I have found little difference in them, ie coming from similar backgrounds (Big4, banks etc.). The icing on the cake is however an average Pakistani CA compared to an average Indian CA, has better management skills, better knowledge (both IFRS- Indians have yet to adopt IFRS and auditing skills). The reason is simple, Pakistani CAs get a much harder time and the pass rates are some of the lowest in the world (meaning it takes more effort, knowledge and skill to pass the exams)
<i>My question is why this difference then, have we simply given up on ICAEW or did we not do our best or was it just a case of the Pakistani mentality et al 'the white man is superior and right'</i>
Living proof of our CAs being better than Indians (on an average) is the fact that they command better salaries than their Indian counterparts in the Gulf.
-the second thing which is not central to the purpose of this discussion but that has come along on, is how the ICAEW will actually fair in Pakistan. As some of you know I am member of both ICAP and ACCA and all friends and colleagues that I know who are members of ACCA (Pakistani and British alike, very few Indians and ACCAs) have rebuked the thought of gaining membership of ICAEW because it does nothing for us (a waste of time and money) in terms of career. The reason why ICAEW has after a life time of rigid rules expanded on membership criteria is that they are loosing the game of numbers to ACCA, hence the failed attempt to merge with CIMA (remember that!). Numbers are important for the purpose of future revenues for the Institute and keeping its place on decision making boards. So they are as desperate as us (ICAP/Pakistani accountants) to expand. We had a level playing field when it came to negotiating a reasonable MOU.
The joke around us is that although ICAEW does nothing for us in terms of career progression, we might have to take up on the offer if we were thinking of moving back to Pakistan or the Gulf. I think that sums it up all.
