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Females in ICAP
06-06-2007, 04:32 PM,
Dear Shoaib,

So much you have written down is a very simple over-view of the scene. You (i mean any one from your family) have not experienced the migration from India to Pakistan. Have this been a case, you would have not been unaware of those millions who sacrificed their lives, their properties, their siblings and much more for Pakistan during the whole process of freedom and specially during the phase of migration. Of course so many of those who opted India as their place have also gone thorugh this process. But at the moment we are discussing Pakistan.

I have personally met so many old men and women who were the part of this migration. I have heard directly from them and my knowledge is not simply based on the text book of PAKISTAN STUDIES. I am not discussing the intents behind such migration or the reasons for such migration. Infact the thing under discussion is what exactly has happened.

Secondly, whether BAIGMAAT of elite class were given a credit or not, this is not a matter to be emphasized. In that struggle even the college and school girls had participated. I dont know to which class they relate but they had contributed their share. Needful is to check the history in detail. Yes, of course, indirectly females always have an influence thats why we cannot simply ignore them and disregard them. I only wanted to invite attention towards the role of females in the economic development and other important facets of life. I understand so many of us feel them to be a home bird who should not come out of the cage specified for them (so-called CHAADAR AND CHAAR DEEWARI). In my view this Chadar and Char deewari could be taken every where by a female who is mature, responsible, respectable and vigilant. Just the chaar deewari of bricks and cement cannot protect the females and society from lewdness and other evils. I cannot find from the Holy Quran any order for the females to always remain at home and dont put their feet outside and dont work and study for any improvement of life, mankind and economy. If at any place any thing has been mentioned about NAAN or NUFQA for a married female being the responsibility of her hubby(as pointed out by another friend) this has its own logic. There appear to me some serious logics behind HAQ MEHAR, NAN/NUFQA and other such things to regularize the social setup and to save the females from being deprived of their basic rights. In my view at so many places Islam has given more rights to females just to emphasize their respect in the society. This is not the main topic so I dont get into its detail. However, I could not so far conclude form the holy verses of Holy Quran that females should not have advanced education and should not work in an islamic society. In my view such conclusion is a rigid thought, unethical and narrow minded. I wonder if females would not become doctors, how the persons who dont want their wives' and females to be checked up by male doctors (specially in gynae matters) would succeed in restoring the health of their wives and females. Such adverse thinking for females' education and working is just an uneducated narrow minded thinking. This is my sole view.

As far as the migration of Ulemaas and Maulvies is concerned, the Jamiat Ulmaa-e-Hind is still at India with all of the Ulemaas and Maulvies. This Jamiat is much wider than the Jamiat Ulmaa-e-Pakistan and most of them are still of the opinion that the foundation of Pakistan was a wrong step. I dont comment on the validity of their opinion.

If the desired results have not been so far obtained from the foundation of Pakistan, the major role for such failure was of army and wadiaras who are mainly our politicians. They killed Liaqat Ali khan. I personally feel Mr. Jinnah was also killed or proper care was not taken for him and he was left to face his disease without any proper cure. Fatima Jinnah was defeated by Ayub Khan and all his allies who are still in government. So much was gradually changed by Gen.Azam, Sikander Mirza, Ayub, and Yahya. I also mention that failure was also caused by Ulemaas who did not properly guide the nation and who kept on fighting with each other on the issues of power and government. Now we have reached a stage where we dont exactly find the reasons of making Pakistan and we have variant and diversified opinions on this issue.

As far as Mr. Abu-al-Aala Maudoodi is concerned, he was a learned AALIM. I am not his follower but I have no doubt on his knowledge. I wonder, if he was against Pakistan (as we all know) then why he opted Pakistan as his residential country while the option of setlling down in India was available. Does this not somewhat seem to be a collasion between sayings and doings? However, I dont know the detailed reasons and background of his decision to opt Pakistan.

Now I think much discussion has been made on this issue and we should give time to other matters.

Best regards,
06-06-2007, 05:19 PM,
plz wirite small messages,, coz every 1 is not that farigh!!
06-06-2007, 05:38 PM,
These messages are addressed to Shoaib and not every one like you my dear.
06-06-2007, 05:41 PM,
Debates could cause the messages to get some length. However, general messages and professional solutions should not be so lengthy unless required by the circumstances for required level of clarity.
06-07-2007, 09:16 PM,
Mr KamranACA at very first instance i thought you were very knowledgable person but from now i have to change my ideas....because you said that no one Moulvee was with Mr Jinnah this shows you very weak insight in history i recommand you to study more history because study will make you perfect and after all the maxim "Readers Are Leaders" have lot init...

I was also ammazed about your slack perception about moulvees......You also said that no one Moulvee was with Quid-e-Azam....for your very kind information [ALLAMA SHABBIR AHMAD USMANI, MOULANA ZAFAR AHMAD USMANI, MUFTI SHAFIE DEOBANDI, MOULANA ASHRAF ALI THANVEE, MOULANA SAYED SULEMAN NADWIE, MOULANA SAYED ABUL-HASAN ALI AL HASSANI NADWIE](Rahim ullah), and lot of others were front line defenders of the cause to make PAKISTAN an ISLAMIC STATE...and for your further kind information Moulana SHABBIR AHMAD USMANI was the one who prayed "NAMAZ-E-JANAZAH"(Funeral Prayers) of Quid-e-Azam on his(Quid's special Request)......You can easialy find this information in every good book of history and if you studied any book you have already seen these names...Your "Lub Kushaie" about Moulana Abul Kalam Azad shows your ever by the time passes you will learn alot......

And this is not a hidden Fact that lot of ULEMA-E-KIRAMS were against Pakistan and like "Moulana Hussain Ahmad Madni(Rahim Ullah)" and lot of others were against just because they are of the view that Whole "Bra-e-Sagheer" is ours' and how it possible for us to make seperate Country and previous to East India Inc. We were the majority with Mughals Monarchie.....although they were also of right right openion...

You also used names of Moulana Fazul-ur-Rehman in your previous post this also shows the extent of you unawareness because he was not there at all his birth date shows that he will only 2 to 5 years old when pakistan was founded........and in your extreme imbalance post you used names of MUFTI MEHMOOD(Rahim Ullah) with Moulana Fazlur-Rehman Ohhhhh my GOD.....Moulana Fazlur Rehman is son of Mufti Mehmood how it possible for you to use both names togather...I think every Prominent Moulvee name which you have saved in you memory you used them to make people "GUMRAH" your efforts was very sick....any ways you will learn it in future....

Further if you have a good insight in AHADITHs this is not moulvees' agenda to restore Women in Houses there were hundreds AHADITHS which says that the right path for women is to live in houses....

I don't know why you are so against TALIBANISATION OR MULLAHISM....because dear i know very well about the problems of working women...people(99% almost) see them as they were only a "SEXUAL INSTRUMANT" as their SEX Removing Commodity.....i know people i see those guys my class fellows and others who have very much negative sense whenever they see any girl in collage they say "YAR BASS IK BAR YEH KAHIN MIL JAY" what is this hell...........that's why islam introduced "PARDAH".....PARDAH is neither talibanisation nor Mullahism.......if you think it in this sense i must say that buddy you are either og unsound mind you <b>"SHAITAN(EBLEES) is very much EFFCTIVELY AND EFFICIENTLY USING YOU"</b>......
06-07-2007, 09:38 PM,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Still, in my view, VEIL is not made compulsory by the Holy Quran. This is my view. Further, our females (I mean muslim ones) should take care to maintain the norms of our society which are of course conceptually Islam influenced and should be influenced as such becoz majority of this country is Muslim. For those who are non-muslims, following of the laws of this country is necessary which do not allow for lewdness<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Islam is having the view that is so clear and followd by AHADITHS and further ISLAM don't need Your <b>"I think"</b> because if you will start thinking alot then things will go adverse for you....

06-07-2007, 10:22 PM,

This I THINK was on the issue of VEIL only and not for so much. Further, I mentioned that it is my view. So it must not cause tension to you. However, my conclusion is based on the study of all reliable AHADEES and HOLY QURAN. I have discussed this issue with so many Ulema and they have principally agreed to it.

VEIL is not prohibited. If some one wishes to have it, it is gud for her. But it is not a compuslion. Had it been a compulsion, it would have been made a part of EHRAAM specified for the women during the performance of HAJJ. Now one cannot say that this relaxation has been given due to so and so reasons at the time of HAJJ. Islam do not allow relaxations where it lays down strict principles.

Further, such sort of exclaimations (regarding relaxation during HAJJ, as some people say) are just like the case where so many relaxations are offered by other religions at their gatherings which we strongly reject and criticise. You can search for KHUMB festival of Hindus and you will find certain relaxations. (Sorry from Hindu members, this is just to explain my view point and not to hurt any Hindu members here).

If you see the dress of muslim females during HAJJ, you will find it a very respectful dress and there exists no veil being the part of this dress.

No HADEES can be accepted which collides with the requirements and principles laid down by HOLY QURAN. I have read SAHI BUKHARI and other AHADEES books, and you may also have read them. If so, then you must know that Imam Bukhari Rehamtaullah knew almost 300,000 AHADEES from which he concluded only 8,000 plus to be reliable enough for keeping record in Bukhari Shareef. Further, as per his statement the AHADESS on which he had a FIRM belief were very few.

I dont quote you to study SOORAH-e-NOOR becoz I hope you must have read it. I dont find anywhere any mention of VEIL clearly in HOLY QURAN. Any requirement which has not been clearly asked for in HOLY QURAN should be searched from other sources but the issues which have been discussed in HOLY QURAN with clarity and where during such discussion no specific orders of GOD have been stipulated for MOMENEEN as I say about VEIL, and where such issues are also evidenced by some other facts and practices, as I pointed out about HAJJ, then the compulsion does not arise for anything that is not required by HOLY BOOK specifically and that is not seen in practice.

Again this is my view. If your family and friends and other people wish to find it as compulsion I have no objection at all. But in my view it is not a compulsion.

Since there is no restriction or compulsion in beliefs as per ISLAM, (u must read AYAAT-e-MUBARIKA after AYET-ul-KURSI to find out), you must not be offencive with me or anybody else on religious issues. I always quote that it is my view and ISLAM allows me fully to have my own views based upon my own research and belief. Islam and HOLY QURAN encourage everyone to institute a research to uncover the realities. You can find so many such HOLY VERSES.

This is the main difference between Bible followers and Quran followers. Bible lays down rules and asks to follow strictly and not to search. Quran lays down the rules and asks to follow and also to search. Again and again Quran mentions to search and find out and states that there are so many hints for the wise people.

Besides it Holy Quran also mentions that there is no compulsion on beliefs. No legal requirement stipulates us to hear only the views of MAULVIES or rigid guys like you. I dont have to get permission of rigid knowledgless people and MAULVIES (who are not AALIMS), who dont have much importance for me, for establishing my views.

Yes I dont ask anybody else to follow my views if these are not correct as per their perception.

You are not the answerable on my deeds and belief. You dont have to lay down in my grave. Mind it. Otherwise u r not the alone who can issue FATAWA against people with limited tiny mind and knowledge. Try to correct your faith if u are interested in doing so (becoz it does not hurt me whether or not u do so) and dont mess up the things.

Best regards,
06-07-2007, 11:14 PM,
Dear Amir,

You said in ur previous post that you initially felt me a person of knowledge and afterwards you have changed ur opinion. This shows lack of ur experience and knowledge. You wrongly assess the people. You assessments are not mature ones which have to be changed again and again. You should have a firm assessment which need not to be altered.

You know, I since the onset never believed you to be a person of sound belief and followable knowledge. That's why u always find replies from me on all issues. This is difference between me and you. I dont regret for what I percieved about you. Yes, I like ur interest in religion and I appreciated it but u always appeared to me as a guy who has studied the religion with closed heart.

Anyways, this is ur issue and not mine. I just mentioned it in reply of ur imbalanced cheap post hiting me personally.

The persons you mentioned have never been an active part of Pakistan Tehreek. They mostly migrated to Pakistan and they might have been agreeing to what QAUID was of the view but they were never been that active as the other guys were in TEHREEK-E-PAKISTAN. You have to prove their participation. There might be restricted one but there was no active participation. Further, among the names u mentioned there are very noble men of ALLAH who as per my knowledge were true ULEMA so I dont much talk about them.

Now coming to the point of Mr. FAZAl-ur-Rehman. When I posted that message I was of sure that you will raise this stupid question. I hereunder quote a part of my previous message

..............I dont know what Maulvies have ideas about the role of females in an Islamic society. But I know one thing. When Pakistan was founded, no apparently known Maulvi was with Quaid-e-Azam. The Maulvies like Mr. Fazal-ur-Rehman, his father (Mr. Mufti Mahmood) and like Mr. Abu-al-Kalam Azad (and many more) have used indicent language about Mr. Jinnah. I understand that such language is commonly used in politics...................

If you give a look to these sentences and if your mind and eyes still work and if ur heart is not stumped and if u dont just raise issues with IBLEES originated thoughts, YOU WILL SEE

that I never mentioned that Mr. Fazal-ur-Rehman (or his father) was a part of those who were against Mr. Jinnah at the time of establishment of Pakistan. RATHER, I said that they have used indecent language for Mr. Jinnah. Yes, Mr. AZAD was present at the time of PAKISTAN TEHREEK. However, I dont know about Mr. MUFTI. But here the matter was of using indecent language.

I have once read in daily NAWA-I-WAQAT some years back an interview where Mr. FAZAL-ur-Rehman said the QUAID-E-AZAM was infact a FRUAD-E-AZAM. I dont have that newspaper in my record. But if you want to get its clarity then come to Lahore, visit NAWA-i-WAQAT's office and search for that newspaper in their record.

So, dear Amir, use your eyes properly while seeing others' posts and dont get offensive just becuase of your prejudice thinking.

Best regards,

06-09-2007, 02:05 AM,
Thank you for you post this shows your caliber of thought being a student of professional body i know onething that is when one wish to subscribe as member of a professional body he/she shoud sign certain covenents and he/she must have to comply with those and if not then he/she might be repudiating with those covenants.......

In ACCA we have strict rule regarding this but i don't know about policies of ICAP however i have a presumption that they must also be using some professional code of Conduct

Further more I was pleased to hear that you have some regards of Some Ulema-e-Kiram....

I think your brain was fully washed by brain makers so that i can't anything for a person who is fanatic in his approaches.....

Your fight with Moulvees is your personal matter i don't have to intervene init however i must say that you are no one to disgrace others or crush others' "IKHLASS" Under you feets this is my request to you.....

Further i am also pleased to hear that you are no that extent Enlightened "Roshan-Khayal" still you are in favour of some modesty thats good to hear.......

I don't know who give you right to select some as "Heart Stamped" person this is you personal matter because one time there were 100s of fatwas of "KUFFAR" on "ALLAMA IQBAL(Rahimullah)"....but so sacrifices for good and now every one says that ALLAMA(Rahimullah) was great person still his poems are path provoking for all i will never mind you ill posts because this is your personal matter and you have clarified me that you have to have in your own "grave" so this will be the last desteny every thing has been clarified there "Talibanisation" or "Musharafisation" who will be dominant you will seen this in near future because our lives are limited at some extent......

Further more neither Moulana Fazlur Rehman nor Mr Muhammad Ali Jinnah(Rahimullah) are authority for us they all are humans and still every human can commit mistake <b>human including Owliays</b> are not free from mistakes they can commit mistakes only "Ambia-e-Kiram"(Alihimusalam) are free from committing mistakes they are masooms......

You have what ever said about me i neglected because of your "Lesser" use of "GOD GIFTED BOX" and i have forgive you because of being my Muslim Brother..........

My Request for you is that please don't use abbusive langauge for Ulema-e-Kiram and if you are that much AALIM then preach right way of Islam not you <b>"I Think"</b> Islam......becvause Islam is not bouded by you "I Think"

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
You know, I since the onset never believed you to be a person of sound belief and followable knowledge. That's why u always find replies from me on all issues. This is difference between me and you. I dont regret for what I percieved about you. Yes, I like ur interest in religion and I appreciated it but u always appeared to me as a guy who has studied the religion with closed heart.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Closed Heart......................................................................................I really feel sorrow on this post this is simply declearing me a person who is studying religion for just some stupit reasons.................................really i am feeling pain in my heart................

Anyways you might be right
06-09-2007, 06:37 AM,

I know its going to be futile but, here I go

Like Kamran said, you need to open your heart and eyes before you open your mouth. Plus, don't take it personally but I think apart from being articulate you do need to learn the language you are writing in, because I see a case of 'lost in translation' here.

You need to understand that no one is above debtate or criticism apart from the Prophets,. be it an Allama or an Ulema. I would advise you not to try mixing people's faith with their being follower of the movement for Pakistan. This is for a fact that none of the Islamic parties per se were in favour of Pakistan, partly due to their vision of 'Islam has no boundries' and more so because they despised the Secular Jinnah.

It is also true that once Pakistan was conceived they got on to the bandwagon and then laid claim to the country as if it was their personal 'Jaggir' I am sorry if I have shattered any of yor pre-concieved notions or your belief system for that matter but these are bitter truths.

Ofcourse you are entitiled to your opinion, but please give way for others as well. Islam is not about being narrow minded on any thing.

A little bit for back ground reading.
06-09-2007, 07:03 PM,
Dear Amir,

You are infact one of our Pakistani brothers and I have in real no right to use any indecent language for you personally even in the capacity of a human being except for to reply anything in the required circumstances.

Your problem is that you wish to say whatever comes into your GOD GIFTED BOX (as u just called it) which prima facie appears to me somewhat hollow in its nature. But once u have said whatever immoral wordings created by the hollow box, you expect others to dont even bother to post any replies.

If you see my earlier posts, you will reasonablly find out that none has been embellished and whatever was written, was a need of the circumstances created by ur hands. Therefore, now you should not express your pains on the replies to ur posts.

Ulemas are Ulemas for all of us and degree of respect and regard for any one specifically depends upon the mental alignment with his thoughts and preachings. I respect the noble men and I realise why this world is still surviving but the persons who earn by selling ISLAM and HOLY VERSES, the persons who polish their personal wishes and politics by using the name of Islam, the persons who wish to destory the peace of my country and take laws in their hands illegaly, and the persons who dont show any tolerance and forebearance to the social setup and other humans on this earth are not the ones to be called as ULEMA, at least at least at least by me. And for that I dont care whatever u conclude about me since u have no right to do so as I dont have to fall into ur grave and u as well dont have to be answerable for my deeds.

Show the tolerance, if you can, or otherwise hold your tounge to the maximum you can. This remains the way out to save the respcet of others as well as to serve a basis for preserving your respect and outlook.

Your lack of knowledge is wished to be cursed but I dont do it as i need not to do so. Any code of ethics issued by ICAP or ACCA or ICEAW or IFAC or whatever other professional body is always specific to the professional acts/deeds/responsiblilities/rights and professional life sphere. It has nothing to do with one's personal beliefs, facts about history of Pakistan's foundation and the persons who participated TEHREEK-E-PAKISTAN, religious thoghts, general life discussions and replying to the unrealistic, baseless comments and the doings of uncontrolled tounges. You have to read out ur ACCA's code and u will find it. Dont always act like DOCTOR QUACK, I once earlier requested you, if you like to give an ear to my humble request.

At the end, I really feel sorry if I have caused any pain to you due to my posts (which was simply a reaction of ur messages) and I wish not to repeat it again.

Best regards,

06-09-2007, 08:12 PM,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Just for example laying down on benches on beaches by females without any dress is western life <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Pls. dont say that again, when I think of the view i feel left out.
06-09-2007, 09:03 PM,
I could not understand Goodman
06-09-2007, 10:47 PM,
Anyways Bhai KamranACA Sahib and Bhai PRACS Sahib i being very junior than you believe me i really respect both of you and being my elder MUSLIM BROTHERS i really have full respect of both of you however due to some circumstances as you both are well aware that in written conversation their is a lack of body langauge this could and it had lead to mis judge one's thoughts...I really appreciate your and KAMRAN sahib's statements and i welcome all of them as I being student and so....

However due to some circumstances something become complicated....

Anyways we have lot to debate their are millions of big problems facing by UMMAT-E-MUSLIMA these little problems can be discussed after those big ones....

Muhammad Amir
06-10-2007, 01:14 AM,
could not understand Goodman

love to see the view of such a beach.

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