07-16-2007, 07:32 PM
Dear Coollioness,
There is nothing to be taken on DIL. I appreciate ur above post which really reflected you to be somewhat agreeable to the facts.
I regret for misunderstanding that concluded u to be living at USA. However, its not just about u and I. You must have heard about HSMP (highly skilled migrant programme). You know thousands of young people are trying by all means to get into the advanced countries. For this, they prepare fictitious salary certificates, bank statements, false experience certificates and even false income tax returns. I agree to u that in Pakistan so many laws are not being followed in true sence, so every thing happens and so much is prepared fictitiously. (However, still it does not make it our responsibility to implement these laws by our own. We can do so much which I will shortly discuss in succeeding paras).
This way and also by means of legal assylum, so many of us are migrating every day without considering what would be the ultimate impact on our lives, our kids, whole next generation, our social responisbilities and upcoming moral obligations. When I said that evil is evil at USA, UK as well as Pakistan, it was meant for such people who deliver big speeches here in Pakistan but in advanced countries their generation goes to the dancing clubs, casinos, bars and brothels and lives with jews and christians even without marrying. You clarified that you are living in some muslim country so obviously I was wrong on my words and being a realistic person I regret it.
You said in ur post-
"I know what do qoumi nazria was. It no where says Mullahs but it doesnt draw any line betweeen Mullahs and other muslims. It says Muslims as whole. Mullah's are also included. Yeh tou tha aap kee baat ka jawaab. Now tell me why you feel Mullah's from some other part of Universe? You are using word Mullah as Godforbid its an abuse or something. Dont you think you need to open your eyes and mind too????"
I again conclude that even after studying political sience, you dont have grip on the basic concepts of ur/our Quaid-e-Azam, Mr. Jinnah. I once in my earlier post quoted the words of Mr. Jinnah which he used in his speech after creation of Pakistan. These may not be the exact words but can serve the purpose. He said, "Oh people of Pakistan we (he, I think used the words "muslims league") succeeded in creating a new country for you where you have gotten rid of britsih, hindus and mullahs".
The line between Mullahs and muslims is not drawn by me. It was drawn by the founders of Pakistan. I requested you to study the back ground which u have ignored. Discuss this matter with people like Justice Javed Iqbal son of Sir Allama Muhammad Iqbal and you will get some clarification. Mullahs are of course included in muslims, but Pakistan was not supposed to be a place for them to get flourished and by all the hard luck they have flourished too much in this intended peaceful country. The major contributors in their flourishing had been people like Ex-President Zia-ul-Haq who always tried to hide behind the Mullahs and nation was always decieved by using the name of Islam.
You must know people dont much like Mullahs to be in power generally but being the innocent muslims they always concieve them to be on right path and this hides so much about their acts. People have been rejecting these mullahs in almost all elections since the outset and it must be amazing that big Mullahs even lost their own seats in so many elections. I dont quote the last election and its results that was purely a drama of Musharraf strategy to show USA the increasing demand and trend of Mullahism in Pakistan just for the sake of justifying his prolonged unform governance.
You said in ur post-
"I am not at all saying that i am in favor of Mullah's or their way of teaching. But Mr. not all fingers are alike. I always opposed the Sakhthi or enforcement in Islamic education practised by some of our Molvies in Mosques. I am only talking about the ones i had seen in my street and i did not liked their way. Its such a soft religion that you do not need to impose it on someone."
I appreciate the above words from you and am agreed that all fingers are not alike. You will agree that there is really a line between nobality and mullahism. Islam requires modesty, nobality, character, courage, forbearance and compliance with Sharia. It does not, however, require Mullahism. This is just to understand and if we dont try to understand we will never get to know the difference.
You said-
"If talk about Ghazi brothers and their students then i told you that punishment for them was not death. They were not terrorists. Again i will ask you that who knows that they had been trying to talk to govt in peaceful ways. Demand to reconstruct 7 Mosques was not something out of the world demand."
I totally agree to u that this demand was not out of the world demand. However, Ghazi and his fellows have not been operated due to this demand only. They had never been talking to government peacefully. They by force occupied the libray, by force kidnapped the so-called Aunti Shamim, police officers, chinese guys etc. I dont appreciate any brothel Naoozbillah, but still it was not their duty to do it by their hands. (**See para below). They used guns against rangers/army, they made MORCHAs in mosque, they had big reserve of ammunition in mosque, they excalimed to have stored food for three months which must not be without any bad intent (ur comments about water and food etc are baseless, they said they have reserve of three months. Now I dont know it was true or false), they fired out government property, building and vehicles, they used heavy ammunition for seven days without surrendering, they rejected all government offers and were openly challenging its writ on media, they made the kids and even some of their parents as their hostages and much much more. I wonder how u say that they were not the terrorists. I dont agree to ur above statement to this extent and in my view they were fully trained terrorists. What else should be there to make a person a terrorist or extremist.
**I once again will say that people generally lack the knowledge about laws. Ghazies said that police was not taking action against such brothel. {I agree that the new law of women rights is not as per Islam but I also point out that even the previous Hadood law was not as per Islam. For God sake study both texts and analyse the reality. This has been discussed at length so I dont go into details.} As per new law it is not the power of police to penetrate anyone's home unless some open lewdness is witnessed. Yes, off course there was a way out that is the part of new law. They should have gone to court, should have recorded their witnesses in the court (that is required by Sharia even), should have got the courts orders for inquiry or arrest of such malpracticing people and then police could have never denied to such orders. This was the way out and in my sole view it is not at all impracticable. Ghazies did not bother to follow the law and did all the terror they could have done. This was by no means their duty. As per Islam just knowing that some zana has been happened cannot be treated as a witness and an allegation from such a witness can even call for the application of Qazaf law against such witness. We had to follow Islam and not our own perceptions.
You said-
"jahan taq baat hai stop the evil in USA then i do not have any right to do that openly. Thats their country, their laws. Meray aik ke liye sab badalnay se tou rahay. But i can do it in my country. right?"
When we quote the Hadees about stopping the evil and various levels of faith in doing so, there comes no stipulation to do this only in our country or only in a muslim country. Plz go back to the text of Hadees and make ur understanding clear. If you live at USA you have to follow this hadees. It's not just the question of a specific country. Islam is Islam every where. Why one will not do such terrorism in USA? Becoz he/she knows that in a lawful society these responsibilities are vested with the government and specially at such a country law enforcers will crush him/her as they have no fear of public misguiding by Mullahism in their own country. Why one finds it expedient to do it in Pakistan even in the presence of muslim rulers and all the required laws? Just becoz such people know that here law enforcement is in-effective and they will be rarely asked for their acts based upon the self-developed idealogy. You were right in saying that law is not properly enforced. Thats why people like Ghazies emerge on the screens of media.
At the end I can just hope for a better future for Pakistan as well as muslims and pray for the peaceful resolution of all the conflictice issues among the muslim Ummah. I personally condemn all the terrorism being done at Swat, D.I.Khan and other parts of Pakistan and wish to see all such ugly faces behind the bars.
Best regards,
Kamran.
There is nothing to be taken on DIL. I appreciate ur above post which really reflected you to be somewhat agreeable to the facts.
I regret for misunderstanding that concluded u to be living at USA. However, its not just about u and I. You must have heard about HSMP (highly skilled migrant programme). You know thousands of young people are trying by all means to get into the advanced countries. For this, they prepare fictitious salary certificates, bank statements, false experience certificates and even false income tax returns. I agree to u that in Pakistan so many laws are not being followed in true sence, so every thing happens and so much is prepared fictitiously. (However, still it does not make it our responsibility to implement these laws by our own. We can do so much which I will shortly discuss in succeeding paras).
This way and also by means of legal assylum, so many of us are migrating every day without considering what would be the ultimate impact on our lives, our kids, whole next generation, our social responisbilities and upcoming moral obligations. When I said that evil is evil at USA, UK as well as Pakistan, it was meant for such people who deliver big speeches here in Pakistan but in advanced countries their generation goes to the dancing clubs, casinos, bars and brothels and lives with jews and christians even without marrying. You clarified that you are living in some muslim country so obviously I was wrong on my words and being a realistic person I regret it.
You said in ur post-
"I know what do qoumi nazria was. It no where says Mullahs but it doesnt draw any line betweeen Mullahs and other muslims. It says Muslims as whole. Mullah's are also included. Yeh tou tha aap kee baat ka jawaab. Now tell me why you feel Mullah's from some other part of Universe? You are using word Mullah as Godforbid its an abuse or something. Dont you think you need to open your eyes and mind too????"
I again conclude that even after studying political sience, you dont have grip on the basic concepts of ur/our Quaid-e-Azam, Mr. Jinnah. I once in my earlier post quoted the words of Mr. Jinnah which he used in his speech after creation of Pakistan. These may not be the exact words but can serve the purpose. He said, "Oh people of Pakistan we (he, I think used the words "muslims league") succeeded in creating a new country for you where you have gotten rid of britsih, hindus and mullahs".
The line between Mullahs and muslims is not drawn by me. It was drawn by the founders of Pakistan. I requested you to study the back ground which u have ignored. Discuss this matter with people like Justice Javed Iqbal son of Sir Allama Muhammad Iqbal and you will get some clarification. Mullahs are of course included in muslims, but Pakistan was not supposed to be a place for them to get flourished and by all the hard luck they have flourished too much in this intended peaceful country. The major contributors in their flourishing had been people like Ex-President Zia-ul-Haq who always tried to hide behind the Mullahs and nation was always decieved by using the name of Islam.
You must know people dont much like Mullahs to be in power generally but being the innocent muslims they always concieve them to be on right path and this hides so much about their acts. People have been rejecting these mullahs in almost all elections since the outset and it must be amazing that big Mullahs even lost their own seats in so many elections. I dont quote the last election and its results that was purely a drama of Musharraf strategy to show USA the increasing demand and trend of Mullahism in Pakistan just for the sake of justifying his prolonged unform governance.
You said in ur post-
"I am not at all saying that i am in favor of Mullah's or their way of teaching. But Mr. not all fingers are alike. I always opposed the Sakhthi or enforcement in Islamic education practised by some of our Molvies in Mosques. I am only talking about the ones i had seen in my street and i did not liked their way. Its such a soft religion that you do not need to impose it on someone."
I appreciate the above words from you and am agreed that all fingers are not alike. You will agree that there is really a line between nobality and mullahism. Islam requires modesty, nobality, character, courage, forbearance and compliance with Sharia. It does not, however, require Mullahism. This is just to understand and if we dont try to understand we will never get to know the difference.
You said-
"If talk about Ghazi brothers and their students then i told you that punishment for them was not death. They were not terrorists. Again i will ask you that who knows that they had been trying to talk to govt in peaceful ways. Demand to reconstruct 7 Mosques was not something out of the world demand."
I totally agree to u that this demand was not out of the world demand. However, Ghazi and his fellows have not been operated due to this demand only. They had never been talking to government peacefully. They by force occupied the libray, by force kidnapped the so-called Aunti Shamim, police officers, chinese guys etc. I dont appreciate any brothel Naoozbillah, but still it was not their duty to do it by their hands. (**See para below). They used guns against rangers/army, they made MORCHAs in mosque, they had big reserve of ammunition in mosque, they excalimed to have stored food for three months which must not be without any bad intent (ur comments about water and food etc are baseless, they said they have reserve of three months. Now I dont know it was true or false), they fired out government property, building and vehicles, they used heavy ammunition for seven days without surrendering, they rejected all government offers and were openly challenging its writ on media, they made the kids and even some of their parents as their hostages and much much more. I wonder how u say that they were not the terrorists. I dont agree to ur above statement to this extent and in my view they were fully trained terrorists. What else should be there to make a person a terrorist or extremist.
**I once again will say that people generally lack the knowledge about laws. Ghazies said that police was not taking action against such brothel. {I agree that the new law of women rights is not as per Islam but I also point out that even the previous Hadood law was not as per Islam. For God sake study both texts and analyse the reality. This has been discussed at length so I dont go into details.} As per new law it is not the power of police to penetrate anyone's home unless some open lewdness is witnessed. Yes, off course there was a way out that is the part of new law. They should have gone to court, should have recorded their witnesses in the court (that is required by Sharia even), should have got the courts orders for inquiry or arrest of such malpracticing people and then police could have never denied to such orders. This was the way out and in my sole view it is not at all impracticable. Ghazies did not bother to follow the law and did all the terror they could have done. This was by no means their duty. As per Islam just knowing that some zana has been happened cannot be treated as a witness and an allegation from such a witness can even call for the application of Qazaf law against such witness. We had to follow Islam and not our own perceptions.
You said-
"jahan taq baat hai stop the evil in USA then i do not have any right to do that openly. Thats their country, their laws. Meray aik ke liye sab badalnay se tou rahay. But i can do it in my country. right?"
When we quote the Hadees about stopping the evil and various levels of faith in doing so, there comes no stipulation to do this only in our country or only in a muslim country. Plz go back to the text of Hadees and make ur understanding clear. If you live at USA you have to follow this hadees. It's not just the question of a specific country. Islam is Islam every where. Why one will not do such terrorism in USA? Becoz he/she knows that in a lawful society these responsibilities are vested with the government and specially at such a country law enforcers will crush him/her as they have no fear of public misguiding by Mullahism in their own country. Why one finds it expedient to do it in Pakistan even in the presence of muslim rulers and all the required laws? Just becoz such people know that here law enforcement is in-effective and they will be rarely asked for their acts based upon the self-developed idealogy. You were right in saying that law is not properly enforced. Thats why people like Ghazies emerge on the screens of media.
At the end I can just hope for a better future for Pakistan as well as muslims and pray for the peaceful resolution of all the conflictice issues among the muslim Ummah. I personally condemn all the terrorism being done at Swat, D.I.Khan and other parts of Pakistan and wish to see all such ugly faces behind the bars.
Best regards,
Kamran.