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ICAP humiliating itself
12-24-2008, 08:58 AM,
#16
 
I will advise all readers to click on the link below and read post number 7 which was posted by Mr Kamran

http//www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6020

In the post he admitted that there are so many members of ACCA who are also members of ICAEW and IFAC. In fact he admitted that ACCA has strong voice internationally as compared to ICAP. He also admitted that ICAEW is run by ACCA members since he said that a number of ACCA members are ICAEW members (please remember ICAEW is run by ICAEW members who are also ACCA as per Kamran statement).

In the same post he also admitted that he does not know how many papers ACCA has in total. Its really amazing that the person who does not even know how many papers ACCA has in total is commenting on ACCA and its history. (I really do not think he is qualified accountant).

Reader can see the caliber of ICAP members (if Kamran is ICAP member which I doubt) that they can comment on things without having any information about them. It also proves my statement in first post that ICAP and its members take decisions and make comments without collecting proper information and without having proper knowledge. I have to say that Pakistani economy is collapsing only because of ICAP as ICAP members are working in this economy and taking decisions without collecting relevant information which is demonstrated by ICAP (I explained this in my first post of this threat) and by ICAP members like Kamran who can comment on ACCA and its history without even knowing how many papers ACCA has in total.

On one hand they say ICAEW is world best institute and say that most of ACCA members are ICAEW members and on other hand they confront ACCA. His post has already shown that ACCA is MUCH BETTER than ICAP which could also be seen from ICAP members caliber if Kamran is ICAP member.

He is continuously saying that MOU between ICAP and ICAEW is on equal basis. Its really strange to know that he is not giving any weight to two yr training which ICAP full members has to undergo. If training is not important then he should advise ICAP to completely abolish requirement of articleship of 3.5 yrs and allow people to become ICAP full member who pass ICAP exams as according to him training is not material.

ICAEW requires further two yrs training of ICAP full member under the supervision of ICAEW members (who are also ACCA members as per Kamran statement) as ICAEW knows that ICAP full members are not capable of competing internationally and are not fully qualified accountant.

Coming back to ICAP and its members comments that ACCAs do study UK Law and Tax and do not study Pakistani law and tax therefore they are not totally equipped to work in Pakistan. I just want to ask why Pakistani courts allow all those who do LLB, LLM and Bar at Law from UK to start practicing in Pakistan, where these people only study UK law.

I know people like Kamran are not going to accept reality, but its true that ICAP does not have any future. I also know he will, after reading my post, come up with another stupid logic. Its only Kamran who is defending ICAP and no one else where there are many people who are not in favour of ICAP.

Anyway Kamran and ICAP are the best.

Khalid, ACCA
Reply
12-24-2008, 06:29 PM,
#17
 

Dear Khalid,


I have no doubt that you are a qualified member of ACCA. Yes you are. It's totally reflected in your absurd post. I don't discuss myself in person. Most of the qualified forum members know me personally.

We have so many times been discussing that study texts, curriculums, number of papers etc have in fact nothing to do with how such designation is reflected in the market. I always tell the readers to get the market based evidence. My every such post speaks about it. It is not a new thing if some unsound mind finds it so. One should have gone through all my posts on this issue if he is going to debate on it. The mentally incapacitated statement has not come first time from some ACCA member/student. There had been such comparisons and statements earlier on this forum as well.

What study materials are in place, how many papers have to be passed, what's examiners' approach are the issues of students and not of the qualified people in practice or job. This is not a new logic and has already been discussed well on various threads. Professional perspective is always different from the teachers' or students' perspective. I guess Khalid is still endeavoring to use his ACCA for some better qualification that's why he is more focused on papers, colleges, teachers etc.

Caliber of ICAP members is such that all your ACCAs in Pakistan are bound to be their students. They learn from them, idealize them and conceive every thing from them. Even the ones who come from UK are dependent upon them. I can quote examples. I have at the moment two applications from two UK return ACCAs who want to join my firm. However, unlike you, I must say that it is not a disgrace of ACCAs. They have to be dependent for so many reasons.

The equality, while considering at institutes level, may not be what appears logical to your mind. Because you have one ACCA mind that had probably remained dependent upon CAs of India. You appear to have such complexes. If this appears to be disrespect then why not the reduced recognition of ACCA at India (as you told) and at Pakistan appears to you as such. In fact if ACCA has lesser recognition in Pakistan or India, it is not its disrespect as well. You must try to understand that exemptions and recognitions have to be based upon so many things and cannot merely be made a matter of non-equivalence. No Pakistani student will be required to go UK for getting some out of the world training. The training providers are also from and among their own-selves.

There could be some debate on two years training but one must note that such training is to be obtained from ICAP people. This is recognition of ICAP members and their training strengths. ICEAW no where authorized ACCA of Pakistan to provide such training, and even if they will do, it will not be odd at all. Things should progress with the time. We are not at the stage of judgment day.

What I feel the reason of putting in such condition was that the ICEAW wanted to have its authorized training offices at Pakistan and it has started from allowing it for those who go for ICEAW after ICAP’s CA. Later on it may also be available to entrants of ICEAW under other streams as it is available in certain countries. We have to see what future brings with it. I don’t know why a person sitting at UK is feeling such a pain due to the matter to which he is entirely not related and affected.

Yes, ACCA members tend to become ICEAW members for the reason that they know ICEAW had been a better institute. If this is not the case, why they wish to do this at all. I don’t know why some ACCAs feel they are going to takeover everything in this world. Previously a statement was given that ACCA was going to take up ICAP market. Now the above post wishes to pin point that similar things are going to happen with ICEAW. Mashallah !!!
I will again say that no body came with anything to debate against my view point about ACCAs at Pakistan and are just beating about the bush to revolve around the matter. I look forward to something reasonable from the contributors.


Regards,



KAMRAN.

Reply
12-24-2008, 06:29 PM,
#18
 
Mr. Khalid

ICAP is undoubtedly one of the best institutions in Pakistan. Every Pakistani must be proud of its contribution towards accountancy profession and economy. No one should point a finger towards ICAP because of the conduct of any pyscopath.

Mr. Kamaran

Your wish to know about me indicates your desire to be personal. I advise you to behave like a professional and post logical comments. Please start to think with brain and not with your heart and stop talking like Hitler, Bal Thackeray and Bin Laden.
Reply
12-24-2008, 06:57 PM,
#19
 

Dear Mirza Sb,

I don't remember having any discussion with you at this forum that's why I said I don't know you. Knowing you includes knowing some other's aptitude, caliber, capacity (refelcetd by contributions made on the forum) etc and is not aimed at to know you personally. I in fact saw you here for the first time. Yes, I agree this could be my ignorance as well.

I welcome you to utter out whatever you like but would it be possible if you refer something to prove me laden or thakrey etc.

Regards,


KAMRAN.
Reply
12-24-2008, 10:44 PM,
#20
 
PLEASE CALM DOWN..
I really respect Mr KAMRAN as he's too senior and I consulted him for many of my questions when i newly joined the forum.
PLEASE THRE'S NOTIHNG TO GET PERSONAL HERE. ARGUE ON FIRM BASIS IF ONE HAS. WHAT WE DISCUSSED HERE WAS ACCA's market. in pak and overseas. well in pak i should also admit that ACCA has little(although not 'NO') SCOPE as compared to ICAP no matter what's the reason. where as in abroad... ACCA is a clear winner.
what i mean to say is there are two sides we are arguing upon.
ANYWAYS... PLEASE DONT GET SERIOUS HERE. I REQUEST EVERYONE.
REGARDS,
ALI.
Reply
12-25-2008, 02:45 AM,
#21
 
The main thing is that Mr Kamran does not know how many papers ACCA has in total and he is commenting on ACCA. It means ICAP and its members can comment on things without knowing anything about it, which shows ICAP member caliber.

And its ICAP that sign MOU with ICAEW so that ICAP members get global recognition. On other hands ACCA never cares to sign any MRA or MOU with ICAEW as ICAEW Unilaterally recongises ACCA and ACCA is already golbally recognised.

CCAB route which allows ACCA members to become ICAEW members was established by ICAEW and ACCA never asked ICAEW to do it. For CCAB route, ACCA members does not need to work under the supervision of ICAEW members which is the case with ICAP. SHAME

Our approach to respect ICAP regardless of what it does is not correct. Even if we respect ICAP, the world is not going to respect it as it has no standing at all in the world.

I will again say that ICAP members should think what kind of MOU was singed and Wheather this MOU increases ICAP standing in the world or decreases.

I cannot not beleive that ICAP full members has to undergo 2 yrs training (in Pakistan) under the supervision of ICAEW members who are also ACCA members, plus ICAP members has to pass 4 papers. It means even with legal backing in Pakistan ICAP cannot compete with global recognise qualification even in Pakistan.

What I want to say even with legal backing in Pakistan, ICAP is still not big in Pakistan.

As far as ACCA India is concerned I had not only mentioned ACCA, I wrote ACCA and ICAEW. Please go back and read. POOR ICAP and its members who can be the best in the world, if no other qualification exist and if they do not have to complete.

Desipte of the things mentioned above, ICAP and its members are the best.

Khalid
Reply
12-25-2008, 09:39 AM,
#22
 
There is also a news (though not 100% sure) that students with 4 yrs graduation (or 2 yrs graduation with 2 yrs Masters) in any discipline, from any Pakistani recognised university can register with ICAEW and can start ACA from ICAEW from the beginning ( this could be checked with ICAEW). Such candidates need to undergo three years training with ICAEW authorised firm in Pakistan. After completing three yrs training in Pakistan and passing 15 papers of ICAEW, person will be admitted to ICAEW membership.

Please note that ICAEW does not take any admission test or PPT like ICAP and ICAEW training period is for 3 years instead of 3.5 yeas which is the case with ICAP. Moreover ICAEW does not follow demand and supply policy like ACCA which is the case with ICAP. And yes it is correct ACCA and ICAEW are equal qualifications and this could also be checked with ICAEW.

But the main problem which Pakistani students can face in pursuing this route is again ICAP and its members and ICAEW authorised firms in Pakistan as they may not take Pakistani graduates under this route.

If ICAEW authorised firms in Pakistan start taking Pakistani gradates under this route, then ICAP will be out of Pakistani market and ICAEW and ACCA will be in Pakistani market.

Because of this reason I mentioned in my first post that ICAP takes decisions without collecting information and without forecasting future impact of decisions. I am 100% sure, after sometimes when ICAP will see the negative impact of this MOU, ICAP will cancel it and ICAP will also force Pakistani firm who are now ICAEW register firms to de-register themselves. Wait and see.

ACCA India has been mentioned a lot of time here. ICAEW and ACCA authorised some firms in India but ICAI could foresee the impact of this move in advance and took corrective measures. But as it in known to everyone ICAP and its members are not competent and cannot foresee anything in advance therefore they are happy with MOU so far, example is Kamran. ICAP did the same thing with ACCA which I explained in my first post.

I will advsie ACCA and ACCA students to support ICAP this move and it will work in ACCA favour and against ICAP. Time will prove which qualification is better and ICAP will not be able to continue its monopolistic policies for long, just wait and see fall of ICAP.

Wait and see what will happen to ICAP. Believe me ICAP and its members are not competent.

Khalid
Reply
12-25-2008, 07:58 PM,
#23
 
they may not take Pakistani graduates under this route
then ICAP will be out of Pakistani market and ICAEW and ACCA will be in Pakistani market
But as it in known to everyone ICAP and its members are not competent and cannot foresee anything in advance
fall of ICAP
Wait and see what will happen to ICAP. Believe me ICAP and its members are not competent

What utter bull****.

Boy! what did ICAP ever do to you? i can see a history here. You seem like a insecure person who is not confident enough about his own qualification and needs constant approval. You better go to a shrink cause you need help.

Predicting the fall of ICAP! my my my. This is personal for you, isnt it.

Lets look at the FACTS

1 - a MOU. It is signed after a process of negotiations and what not depending on the bargaining powers of the parties. This particular MOU indicates that the ICEAW got the better deal. end of story.

It has nothing to do with the technical competency of ICAP members, its got more to do with the Pakistani market and its strength. It is unfortunate that you mind cannot process this fact (or maybe you dont want to).

2 - ACCA vs CA. Its redundant. Why do we keep going at it? As finance professionals we all encounter ACCAs and CAs during our work like. We all have our own opinions about the qualification but in the end it comes down to the person pursuing them. ICAP's member have the edge in the local market not only due to the fact that ICAP is a chartered body but also since its examination process is tougher and the structure of the exams requires 110% commitment and knowledge.

As someone who is persuing both ACCA and CA, i can spot the differences. While i have to take exams of FAFR, Law, BM and IT together in one sitting for CA, i can pick and choose in ACCA. I think the ACCA route is easier and i prefer it.

In the end, it all comes down to the person himself. I have seen incompetent ICAP and ACCA members as well as competent one. Rather than wasting our time fighting lets just conclude that,

If youre staying in Pakistan/Middle East - go for ICAP
If you plan to move - go for ACCA, ICEAW, CPA etc

It is strange how someone can pickup a stone and try to argue that the mountain is going to crumble any second.



If you are gonna make posts with the intelligence threshold of a school child please stop dragging ACCA with you.
Reply
12-25-2008, 10:01 PM,
#24
 
Gents,

I think the objective of this thread was to discuss if ICAP's decision to sign off on the MOU was appropriate and what future developments this will entail to, sadly I see that this has turned into an ACCA vs ICAP bashing thread, for which I must say we have a separate 'dedicate' thread. My personal thoughts are available on that thread and I will not go into details.

I would also like to appeal to 'professional and ethical' sense of all members by not hitting their opponents below the belt and for the record I would like to reiterate here that Mr. Kamran is a qualified ACA and a practicing accountant which means he has a more ready grip on how the profession is developing in Pakistan and I respect him for his views. Kamran is also a very active member in adding to the knowledge of the members of this forum on technical matters, so hats on to him for that. (For those who are going to draw their daggers on this, please bear me but those are facts, although I do not know Kamran personally but his posts over the last couple of years on this forum depicts that he is a level headed professional)

Having said that I do not necessarily agree with Kamran's interpretation of this recent MOU. I also am not in agreement with Mourneflower and Cos point of view as I think (and you may correct it) that their purpose of this discussion lacks objectivity, you know you oppose this but for the wrong reason. Your obsession is an anti ICAP stand, which I may say is not healthy. Enough judgment on my part here are my two cents

I think the MOU is a move towards the right step but as all things Pakistani it fell short of effective bargaining with ICAEW. I can understand that ICAP being a third world professional institute (although producing first world quality professional accountants)had some constraints but feel could have done better. I can understand where ICAEW is coming from. I will list these down

-their mainstay would have been the fact that not all ICAP members come in with a graduate degree (even with those who do its a two year affair) as opposed to a three year rigorous degree that all British members have to go through. Point taken, but how is that ICAEW signed another agreement with ICAI (the Indian institute)with very reasonable requirements, ie an Indian CA with 2 year post qualification are eligible to sit for similar exams ! it may sound similar to ICAP members requiring 2 years of further training, but its not because that leaves ICAP member in a sorry state of affairs ie they will have to sign off for a specific training contract (a choice of very few employers) and I am sure on a pittance of remuneration compared to the prospect of joining any other employer (industry or other professional exams). See below for details of the MOUs with both ICAP and ICAEW

<b>ICAP</b>
http//www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/150996/icaew_ga/en/Home/About_us/Press_releases/ICAEW_and_ICAP_Announce_Training_Programme_in_Pakistan

<b>
ICAI</b>
http//www.icaew.com/index.cfm/route/161951/icaew_ga/Qualifications/Train_for_the_ACA/ACA_international_India/FAQs_ICAI_joining_ICAEW/pdf

On paper the requirements for both Indian and Pakistani CAs is the same ie no degree is required, so from an academic point of view both members are on the same footing. From a professional perspective I (not letting my bias in) have worked with Indian CAs and I have Indian CAs working for me (along with SA, Australian and Scottish, English CAs) and I have found little difference in them, ie coming from similar backgrounds (Big4, banks etc.). The icing on the cake is however an average Pakistani CA compared to an average Indian CA, has better management skills, better knowledge (both IFRS- Indians have yet to adopt IFRS and auditing skills). The reason is simple, Pakistani CAs get a much harder time and the pass rates are some of the lowest in the world (meaning it takes more effort, knowledge and skill to pass the exams)

<i>My question is why this difference then, have we simply given up on ICAEW or did we not do our best or was it just a case of the Pakistani mentality et al 'the white man is superior and right'</i>

Living proof of our CAs being better than Indians (on an average) is the fact that they command better salaries than their Indian counterparts in the Gulf.

-the second thing which is not central to the purpose of this discussion but that has come along on, is how the ICAEW will actually fair in Pakistan. As some of you know I am member of both ICAP and ACCA and all friends and colleagues that I know who are members of ACCA (Pakistani and British alike, very few Indians and ACCAs) have rebuked the thought of gaining membership of ICAEW because it does nothing for us (a waste of time and money) in terms of career. The reason why ICAEW has after a life time of rigid rules expanded on membership criteria is that they are loosing the game of numbers to ACCA, hence the failed attempt to merge with CIMA (remember that!). Numbers are important for the purpose of future revenues for the Institute and keeping its place on decision making boards. So they are as desperate as us (ICAP/Pakistani accountants) to expand. We had a level playing field when it came to negotiating a reasonable MOU.

The joke around us is that although ICAEW does nothing for us in terms of career progression, we might have to take up on the offer if we were thinking of moving back to Pakistan or the Gulf. I think that sums it up all.

Reply
12-25-2008, 10:43 PM,
#25
 
Thanks Pracs for your post. I will reply to unseendemon in detail later.

Pracs now u can see why I say that ICAP and its members take decisions without collecting relevant information and without forecasting future impact of their decision. It is shown in MOU between ICAEW and ICAP. ICAP did the same thing in ACCA case when it gave number of exemptions to ACCA and after finding that it was not right decision ICAP took exemptions back in 2000.

ICAP is going to do the same thing in ICAEW case. I am 100% sure that after sometimes (say a year, i think more earlier) ICAEW will allow Pakistani university graduate (since now graduation is 4 yrs in Pakistan) to register with ICAEW and start training with firms that ICAEW authorized in Pakistan. When this will happen (I think this route is available now for Pakistani 4 yrs graduates and 2 yrs bachelors with 2 yrs Master) ICAP will be out of Pakistani market.

I do have sympathy for ICAP but can you see ICAP and its members behavior towards ACCA Affiliate and students is Pakistan ( I care more about ACCA students in Pakistan)

Infact this MOU between ICAEW and ICAP is beneficial for ACCA students in Pakistan, in long run you will agree with me. Let ICAP and its member suffer.

One more thing, you need to explain ICAP and its members difference between ICAEW MOU with ICAI and ICAP, otherwise they will not understand.

You can see when qualified ICAP members like Kamran say that this MOU between ICAEW and ICAP is fine then you can see the quality of ICAP and caliber of its members. I am not criticizing anyone I am just talking about ICAP and its members ability to foresee things in advance.

Now if I say that ICAI (india) is capable of foreseeing things in advance and ICAP is not, then will I be wrong?. Remember there is not a single ICAEW authorised firm in India as it is against Indian Law and there is also supreme court of India ruling. ICAI did same thing with ACCA in India. One more thing Indian CA with 2 yrs post membership experience has to pass only 1 paper of ICAEW and Indian CA with less than 2 yrs post membership experience need to pass ICAEW 3 papers. Where in ICAP case all ICAP members have to pass ICAEW 3 papers and some need to pass ICAEW 4 papers regardless of their post membership experience (even they have more than 2 year post membbership experience) plus ICAP members have to undergo 2 yrs training under the supervision of ICAEW members

Pracs ICAP and its members will not understand what we are saying. I even emailed ICAP explaining ICAEW futures plans in details but ICAP never replied me. ICAP and its members just say that they are best and do not listen to anyone.

In that case why not let ICAP and its members suffer as a result of this MOU. Remember this MOU between ICAP and ICAEW is beneficial for ACCA Pakistan in long run. Let ICAP and its member have illusion that they are the best. Just wait and see. I am serious ICAP is killing itself.

If I say something about ACCA and ICAP then ppl will say i think ICAP is better than ACCA, so i think its better not to say anything and see if ICAP members are rational to find out other ways.

Last thing, Pracs ICAP and its members are not going to accept this reality when you say that ICAEW loosing numbers game to ACCA. In post number 17 on this page hounorable ICAP member Kamran said, his words are

<font color="red">"Yess, ACCA members tend to become ICEAW members for the reason that they know ICEAW had been a better institute. If this is not the case, why they wish to do this at all. I don’t know why some ACCAs feel they are going to takeover everything in this world. Previously a statement was given that ACCA was going to take up ICAP market. Now the above post wishes to pin point that similar things are going to happen with ICEAW. Mashallah"</font id="red">

When ICAP and its members have this thinking then can one expect any rational decision from them.

I again say ACCA is taking over ICAEW and ACCA will take over ICAEW. If someone does not want to accept this reality then its upto person.

Khalid, ACCA
Reply
12-26-2008, 01:13 PM,
#26
 
I want to mention one more thing which will not be liked by ICAP and its members, since its reality I therefore have to mention it.

I do not think that ICAEW will give same weight to ICAP which it gave to ICAI (India) because ICAI has approximately 145,000 members as compared to ICAP which has only 4,242 (exact figure) members. It means ICAI has more strong voice on international avenues than ICAP.

ICAP can try to get same MOU with ICAEW which ICAEW signed with ICAI (India), but I do not think it is going to happen.

Once again ICEW signed MOU with ICAP not to facilitate ICAP members but to have training offices in Pakistan so that ICAEW can attract Pakistani graduates. When ICAP and its members will find out about ICAEW plans it will be too late same thing happened to ICAP in ACCA case.

I am saying it again and again that MOU between ICAEW and ICAP is going in favour of ACCA, Pakistan. Best of luck to ICAP and its members.

Khalid
Reply
12-26-2008, 04:07 PM,
#27
 
Dears,

Pracs is such a nice contributor, his analysis, approach, ability to understand the issues and interpret the results is above the level of any doubt. This all is interalia due to the fact he is a qualified member of ICAP and has undergone very unique training and exposure.

I always welcome the healthy disagreements from competent professionals. This contributes in fact in enhancing our knowledge and understanding.

Since my major area of discussion had always been to guide the students about what is the better course of action for their future in given circumstances, any of my post will give a reasonable understanding of the focal point to the ones who go through it. I always tend to avoid at my own discussing the personal abilities of others but some people are so dumb, stubborn, incompetent, and incapacitated that some-times mentioning their illiterate behavior becomes warranted.

Khalid, at one place, complaints about ICAP members' behavior for ACCA, ignoring the fact that the reason of existence of ACCA in Pakistan is only the ICAP and ICAP members, and at other place he is hoping ACCA to engulf the whole world.

He does not know that the people who get the ability to engulf the whole world do not complain about the behavior of others like annoyed kids. What further should be said?

He is ACCA member, isolated, having nothing knowledge of Pakistani market and is making huge claims and predictions. What a joke that he is ACCA (not ICAP members), staying at UK, and has better understanding, and forecast abilities than a whole of the nation, a complete council, 4000+ members of an institute who are not only ICAPs' member but may have so many other qualifications, memberships and strengths. Now if an ACCA kid rises and talks non-sense, this will never affect an institute at all. Whatever garbage he is uttering out has nothing to do with the facts. He has left us all to see the future and yes future will decide what comes out of the current situation.

I have explained that such inter-institute considerations depend upon so many factors and are not merely the soft-ball-plastic-bat cricket game of the childish people like Khalid. Every one hedges his position and works on a long term agenda and planning. I said we are not in the times of judgment day. People keep on changing their strategies, positions and expectations within the long term plan they have in place. We are, as Pracs said, among the third world countries. It is a fact. I also agree that ICEAW is better and well placed when compared to ICAP. With apologies to Pracs I don't agree that ICEAW was on its knees to extend co-operation to ICAP. Every one has its strength, and to my understanding ACCA can never take over ICEAW. There could have been some localized issues among ICEAW, CIMA and ACCA and others but unlike Khalid I don't comment on it adversely. If I talk about ACCA I have so many reasons and basis to do this specially in Pakistan’s context.

Kahlid says that I talk about ACCA without knowing the number of papers it has. Great point he deduced to comment. He does not have the ability to understand that when one is in the market he will never judge and comment on the strengths and weaknesses of a qualification from the perspective of number of papers it has. I may not necessarily know what number of papers ICAP has at the moment and what structure has been changed after the time we had qualified. This does not mean that I am totally ignorant about it. Yes I don't find a dire need to memories number of papers, its contents and structure etc simply because I am not too much concerned. The qualifications are judged from their technical strengths and market acceptability. Again, with regrets I must point out that the number does not make a qualification the best. It may enhance the revenue of the institute though. But it does not ensure quality at its own. May some one have the brain to understand? A herd of sheep cannot rule the world just because they are a herd. It’s simple. At this place I must mention that to my understanding ACCA are not a herd of sheep in fact. This was just to give an example if some can understand.

Pracs I understand the analysis you produced about number of training years stipulated for Pakistan which are not in place at India. There could be so many reasons for doing so and may be with the passage of time things could get altered. As I said earlier, to me it appears an attempt of ICEAW to make an experiment of having some training offices at Pakistan. This may also be good for Pakistani firms. I personally have the experience of being in gold category of ACCA trainers and also an authorized trainer to ICEAW students. Still, one should not put down all shutters of his eyes and mind like Khalid. Things have to proceed unless there arises some threat and who-ever counters the threat when it arises cannot be said poor predictor. I said every one has a long term plan in place and people do change their positions and strategies within that vision.

I can hope some illusions of a specific category might have been washed off. But I know it’s a hard task. I know them well.


Best regards,



KAMRAN.

Reply
12-27-2008, 09:25 AM,
#28
 
I think it better to completely ignore Kamran. Iwill therefore not reply to his post.
For people information I was offered training contract leading to examinations of ICAEW and ICAI (Ireland) after my ACCA, in UK. But I decided not to go for these qualifications as they do not add any value to one CV after ACCA.

<b>Information for Pakistani students who want to do ACA from ICAEW</b>

Let me clear that to do ACA from ICAEW students does not need to first do CA from ICAP or ACCA. Students do not have to be in training contract to start taking ICAEW exams. In fact students can take and pass 14 out of 15 exams of ICAEW outside training contract, means ICAEW 14 out of 15 exams can be taken and passed by studying full time and without joining any ICAEW authorised CA firm. But to take ICAEW final exam students have to be in final yr of their training (articleship).

Benefits of ICAEW over ICAP for students.

1)ICAEW does not take any admission or PPT test.
2)ICAEW does not require students to register with college (RAETs). Students can study privately or can register with more than one college (RAETs) at a same time.
3)If students do register with college (RAETs), students do not need to provide ICAEW college attendance record.
4)ICAEW marks papers according to standard and not to quta.
5)Students can take and pass papers one by one and students do not need to take and pass group of papers in one sitting.
6)If student pass any of ICAEW paper, student will retain this paper forever.
7) ICAEW professonal stage cosists of two levels Knowledge Level and Application level.

8)Knowledge level consists of 6 papers and duaration of exam at knowledge level is 1.5 hours and are computer based exams. It means students can chose date and time which is convenient to them.students does not require to take and and pass papers at Knowledge level at any particular sequence means student can chose to take and pass paper 6 (last Knowledge paper) first and paper 1 (first knowledge paper) at the end. So student can pick and chose.

9) Aplication level also cosists of 6 papers which are assessed in paper based exams of 2.5 hours. Again at application level student can pick and chose papers.

8) Adavance level consist of 3 papers and students can take and pass these 3 papers in one sitting.these papers can also be taken and passed separately.


<b>Students can register with ICAEW if they do have following qualifications</b>.

1)Four yrs bachelors from Pakistan.
2)Two yrs bachelors WITH two yrs Masters from Pakistan.
3)Two yrs Bachelors from Pakistan
4)ICAP students who have passed Module D (this need to checked with ICAEW).
5)AAT qualified (I think CAT qualified can also register)

<b>Entry rout for 4 yrs Bachelors from Pakistan OR Two yrs bachelors WITH two yrs Masters from Pakistan</b>

Student just register with ICAEW and therefore will be no need to pass or claim exemption from PPT (as ICAEW does not take PPT at all). Student can register with ICAEW by filling student registration form and sending registration fee to ICAEW. ICAEW may also give exemption in one or 2 papers if student has scored more than 60% marks in relevant subject.

Moreover students does not need degree in accounting or accounting related subjects to register with ICAEW. If students do not have degree in accounting or accounting related subjects then ICAEW will not give any exemption.

After registration with ICAEW student can start preparing to ICAEW exams by studying privately or at more than one college. Students does not need to provide their attendance record to ICAEW. Students pass 14 papers of ICAEW without starting training. After passing 14 papers students start 3 yrs training with ICAEW authorised firm in Pakistan and take final and last paper of ICAEW when they are in last (3rd) yr of training (articleship).

After passing last (paper no 15) paper and completing three yrs training (articleship) students apply for ICAEW membership and get ICAEW members.

NOTE Students can start their training at any time during their studies or at the same time with they register with ICAEW. Students can also leave one CA firm and join another CA firm, but in that case students need to join second CA firm within three months (I am not sure abt time period but it is definitely in months) of leaving their first firm. Students also does not need to take NOC from the firm which they are leaving as ICAEW does not require it.

<b>Entry route for Two yrs Bachelors from Pakistan</b>

Students need to take same steps which 4 yrs bachelors students Or 2 yrs Bachelors with 2 yrs Master students require to take. But in case of only two yrs Bachelors from Pakistan students will not be able to claim any exemption and training (articleship) period will be 5 yrs.

Students can take and pass 14 out of 15 papers inside or outside training contract, but student can take and pass ICAEW last paper in final yr of their training (articleship) contract i.e fifth yr.

<b>Route for AAT Qualified</b>

If students are full members of AAT then ICAEW will give exemptions and training period will be 2 yrs instead of 3 yrs.

<b>ICAP students who have passed Module D</b>

Such students are eligible to register with ICAEW.

Khalid


Reply
12-28-2008, 04:01 PM,
#29
 
Purpose of my above post was to explain that one does not need to have any Professional Accountancy qualification to do ACA from ICAEW. Actually my advise to all qualifiled Accountant (ACCA and ICAP members) not to go for ICAEW as if they go for ICAEW then they would be degrading their own qualification (although ICAP does not agree).

Especially ACCA Affiliate should not go for this route as the situation will be entirely changed till you will finih ACA from ICAEW. I am saying this as I know ACCA is keeping close eye on world accountancy profession and seeking recognition in new countries, Canada is Prime example. For information of members of this fourm I want to mention that ACCA launched itself in Pakistan in 1995 and till today ie December 2008 (after 13 yrs in Pakistan) ACCA has only 700 full members and 1,100 Affiliates.

Other examples are Australia and New Zealand where ACCA does not have any MRA with local institutes but ACCA is recognised by local laws for Audit and insolvancy purpose.

I just want to say to ACCA students and Affiliate to bear with ACCA for another couple of yrs and you will see the difference.

<b>NOTE</b> LLB from Pakistan will get exemption in ICAEW law paper. MBA will also get exemptions in some papers of ICAEW.

Khalid
Reply
12-28-2008, 06:39 PM,
#30
 
Dears,

Bear with ACCA for couple of years and then come back on this forum )

Now we can wait for two years folks. Not a big issue na.

By the way, did we ever see any ICEAW member talking this way. I think ACCAs do it because they are pretty much better. I see.

Good suggestion!!!


Regards,



KAMRAN.
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