09-10-2011, 07:42 PM
@ausmanpk
Dear, thanks for expressing of your agreement with my views most of the times except my crossing of the limits that you have pointed out. )
"You exist because we have given a place to you for such existence"....... Well brother, this might have sounded odd but in my view the statement does not carry any arrogance, rather it depicted a situation that can be witnessed and analyzed. A place for existence, means no direct opposition of a localized body when someone new enters in. Historically, foreign qualifications have been opposed by the local bodies of certain countries. However, when ACCA came in Pakistan, it was taken open heartedly by ICAP and it provided the entire platform WITHOUT ANY OPPOSITION AT ANY FORUM and also extended due professional cooperation and mutual recognition. This is on record and ACCA local chapter has no issues with ICAP at all. This is the failure mind of our local crying stuff which raises the issues and calls for such comments and explanations. Had there been any bad intentions at our part, I need not to tell what could have been the repercussions; we can argue but everyone can understand what such scenario could have been.
ACCA contestants, AS A RESULT OF CIRCUMSTANCES AND STRUCTURE, were/are dependent upon CAs in Pakistan e.g
-in studies; since real majority of renowned and reliable teachers are ICAP members and in absolute majority of cases the tuition provider institutions are established by ICAP people;
- in training; as none of ACCA firm is there to train, or in jobs as in almost all cases they are even interviewed and recruited by CAs;
-in professional life; since they have to be reportable to CAs in an absolute majority of cases.
Everywhere they face the locally qualified accountants and still get a place. Do you think, this could have been possible, if there had been any enmity or opposition? Certainly not! So, this is the place which you have always been given to exist and flourish. Go to all the CA firms of which you always complain and check how many ACCAs are absorbed by them. Does it happen if we carry biases?
Therefore, my statement is not arrogant, rather speaks some facts which cannot be denied by doing whatever efforts.
As far as slavery system of the firms is concerned, it has been discussed many a times and I never agreed to it, EVEN WHEN I WAS A STUDENT/TRAINEE. This is only a mentality and a way to think differently. It is also not a question being debated on this forum. If this is a slavery then every training in Pakistan is a slavery be it a medical house job, engineering's practical training, or army's training or whatever. Needed is to think positively and be an instrumental part of the process. Time pays back to hard workers and pays back very well; and this is what these trainings are meant for. However, I agree that on the front of facilities, we in Pakistan, cannot compare the circumstances or payment schedules of Europe or USA and this is not specific for our profession only. We don't find here quality public transport, people of commitment in governance, utility providers and service providers. Despite paying huge direct and indirect taxes, we are not given appropriate security, safety, law and order, greenery, cleanliness, education, health facilities so forth and so on. These are our circumstances and we need a lot to improve them. However, every profession has its own demand and a need of sacrifices and calling them as slavery is incorrect. What would you be feeling about a House JOb on-call doctor who works the entire Eid days and nights in hospital for serving the people like us, merely on the stipend of a few thousand rupees. He is not doing slavery, rather is making his future and paying what his profession demands. What would you say about SSG cadet who is not given a leave even to participate any sort of Khushi-Ghami of his loved ones and who is paid a short stipend during such hard days? What would you say about a Navy Jawan/cadet who comes to the Pakistani port after 3 months and is asked to be a part of another cruise for another term of 2 months merely after 6 hours. I have seen these examples and I know to get something you have to lose something. We need to understand it or change our choice of profession if the hard feelings are on such a level. No one can become a consultant doctor without passing through such phase; no one can place stars on his shoulders without facing these hardships and no one can become a professional accountant without putting in what our profession and circumstances require.
Now I come to your last point regarding distribution of CA designations which is quite strange and unexpected from a person like you. Do you know who were those to whom so-called distribution was made? Can you give me the names or at least number? Do you know what qualifications they possessed at the time when they were recognized as members? Do you know how accounting/auditing profession was governed and regulated in Pakistan before ICAPâs coming into existence? Do you know which exams were taken before introducing CA in Pakistan by the Federal Government? Do you know what basis was made to give them the membership? Do you know what they were doing even before getting recognized by ICAP? Do you know how professional institutes were established worldwide historically?
You need to know this all and understand the issue through a thoughtful research before raising a baseless allegation. If you know the answer to all these questions, revert to me for a debate, otherwise try to find the answers to the above questions and your allegation will cease to exist.
I am here to answer the purposeful questions.
Regards
Dear, thanks for expressing of your agreement with my views most of the times except my crossing of the limits that you have pointed out. )
"You exist because we have given a place to you for such existence"....... Well brother, this might have sounded odd but in my view the statement does not carry any arrogance, rather it depicted a situation that can be witnessed and analyzed. A place for existence, means no direct opposition of a localized body when someone new enters in. Historically, foreign qualifications have been opposed by the local bodies of certain countries. However, when ACCA came in Pakistan, it was taken open heartedly by ICAP and it provided the entire platform WITHOUT ANY OPPOSITION AT ANY FORUM and also extended due professional cooperation and mutual recognition. This is on record and ACCA local chapter has no issues with ICAP at all. This is the failure mind of our local crying stuff which raises the issues and calls for such comments and explanations. Had there been any bad intentions at our part, I need not to tell what could have been the repercussions; we can argue but everyone can understand what such scenario could have been.
ACCA contestants, AS A RESULT OF CIRCUMSTANCES AND STRUCTURE, were/are dependent upon CAs in Pakistan e.g
-in studies; since real majority of renowned and reliable teachers are ICAP members and in absolute majority of cases the tuition provider institutions are established by ICAP people;
- in training; as none of ACCA firm is there to train, or in jobs as in almost all cases they are even interviewed and recruited by CAs;
-in professional life; since they have to be reportable to CAs in an absolute majority of cases.
Everywhere they face the locally qualified accountants and still get a place. Do you think, this could have been possible, if there had been any enmity or opposition? Certainly not! So, this is the place which you have always been given to exist and flourish. Go to all the CA firms of which you always complain and check how many ACCAs are absorbed by them. Does it happen if we carry biases?
Therefore, my statement is not arrogant, rather speaks some facts which cannot be denied by doing whatever efforts.
As far as slavery system of the firms is concerned, it has been discussed many a times and I never agreed to it, EVEN WHEN I WAS A STUDENT/TRAINEE. This is only a mentality and a way to think differently. It is also not a question being debated on this forum. If this is a slavery then every training in Pakistan is a slavery be it a medical house job, engineering's practical training, or army's training or whatever. Needed is to think positively and be an instrumental part of the process. Time pays back to hard workers and pays back very well; and this is what these trainings are meant for. However, I agree that on the front of facilities, we in Pakistan, cannot compare the circumstances or payment schedules of Europe or USA and this is not specific for our profession only. We don't find here quality public transport, people of commitment in governance, utility providers and service providers. Despite paying huge direct and indirect taxes, we are not given appropriate security, safety, law and order, greenery, cleanliness, education, health facilities so forth and so on. These are our circumstances and we need a lot to improve them. However, every profession has its own demand and a need of sacrifices and calling them as slavery is incorrect. What would you be feeling about a House JOb on-call doctor who works the entire Eid days and nights in hospital for serving the people like us, merely on the stipend of a few thousand rupees. He is not doing slavery, rather is making his future and paying what his profession demands. What would you say about SSG cadet who is not given a leave even to participate any sort of Khushi-Ghami of his loved ones and who is paid a short stipend during such hard days? What would you say about a Navy Jawan/cadet who comes to the Pakistani port after 3 months and is asked to be a part of another cruise for another term of 2 months merely after 6 hours. I have seen these examples and I know to get something you have to lose something. We need to understand it or change our choice of profession if the hard feelings are on such a level. No one can become a consultant doctor without passing through such phase; no one can place stars on his shoulders without facing these hardships and no one can become a professional accountant without putting in what our profession and circumstances require.
Now I come to your last point regarding distribution of CA designations which is quite strange and unexpected from a person like you. Do you know who were those to whom so-called distribution was made? Can you give me the names or at least number? Do you know what qualifications they possessed at the time when they were recognized as members? Do you know how accounting/auditing profession was governed and regulated in Pakistan before ICAPâs coming into existence? Do you know which exams were taken before introducing CA in Pakistan by the Federal Government? Do you know what basis was made to give them the membership? Do you know what they were doing even before getting recognized by ICAP? Do you know how professional institutes were established worldwide historically?
You need to know this all and understand the issue through a thoughtful research before raising a baseless allegation. If you know the answer to all these questions, revert to me for a debate, otherwise try to find the answers to the above questions and your allegation will cease to exist.
I am here to answer the purposeful questions.
Regards