Is ICMAP bigger than CIMA?

[Greatkhans]

Hi Kamran,

I do appreciate your allegiance and commitment to guide your juniors. But with all due reverences, I think this all could have been written in a more professional and polite way. I understand why you had to react like that. I hope you will keep your journey continue.

Regards,

Awais,

This is what I tried to make you understand, in my post on Is recession really here? but you started a war of words. However, I would say to you that

Dekha jo teer kha kay kamein gah ki taraf
Apnay hi dostoo say mulaqat hogai

Although you did not send me an e-mail for help as you did in my case, but this time, I will play the role of mediator and request all, to be calm and adhere to the main topic as referred by Shani.

Regards,

GREAT KHANS

[awaisaftab]

Dear Kamran,

Your last post is full of personal attacks. You want to prove me an illiterate person.

I am sorry to say that you have acted too aggressively. You have shown this behaviour in past also but it is my fault that I forget your harsh words and presume about you that you are a true professional. You want to prove that I am not working in any company.

You remember that at some place I have written that I am working as Accounts Manager in a medium size company but you forget that at some place I have also written that I started my career from an audit and accounting consultancy firm.

If you think that I am ignorant and illiterate person who don't have required level of knowledge of Accounts and Audit then why you are giving arguments to me??

If something is going wrong in audit firms then even being a citizen of Pakistan ( if you don't consider me a professional acountant or even an accountant) I have the right to point out it.

Keep it in mind that in Private Companies minutes of the meeting are not written in much detailed manner as written in Listed Companies.

[awaisaftab]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tariqsohail</i>
<br />

Mr. Awais,

Please try to stay calm. I would suggest we should wait how Kamran react to my this post and if he is ready to put things on calm note then we should show a good gesture as well.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dear tariq

I am acting upon your advice.

[awaisaftab]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shani420</i>
<br />Actually the thread was "Is ICMAP bigger than CIMA?" but it has turned into a "ICMAP vs ICAP" debate with an intensity level equal to India vs Pakistan match!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Funny comments in stressed environment.

[awaisaftab]

See the link
http//www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9020

Although I don't know about the way in which code of ethics is concluded by ICAP but it is not required for me under any standard of education further I am not a member of any special committee of ICAP for finalizing and preparing code of ethics. Rather knowledge of corporate law and tax laws is essential for every professional accountant.

Further if code of ethic is prepared under the guidelines of IFAC it does not mean that it is above criticism. Everything can be criticized. One thing should be keep in mind we cannot compare our national ethical level with the ethical level of modern countries in some aspects.

Further one of my above real world case was misinterpreted by Mr. Kamran I am reproducing it her

We observe many sorrowful audit practices in real life. A person who was part of an audit team during the audit of a partnership firm, the audit was made on the request of a sleeping partner, told me in very happy mood about the VIP treatment. He told me during that audit they daily visited some good restaurant or hotel including five star hotel of twin cities like Marriott, PC Hotel (both PC Rwp and Bhurban)Serena Hotel,Usmania Tabaq and Jhangir. So during 1 month period of audit the audit team did not leave any good hotel and restaurant of Rawalpindi and Islamabad.

The above details are not relating to any form of company rather it was pertaining to audit of a partnership firm, as I have used the word of "Sleeping Partner".
The purpose of that audit was the reservations of sleeping partner and the VIP treatment was given to audit team by the active partner. The VIP protocol was offered to audit team to get a neat and clean audit report because many frauds were made by the active partner
Mr.Kamran if you want to know the name of audit firm and Partnership firm, being audited, then this information can be provided you at your email.

My second example was also related to Partnership firm in fact Rs.25, 000/- was not paid against audit fees but rather in return of FAKE AUDIT REPORT. I was involved in the deal "May Almighty Allah Forgive Me ".

In above mentioned organization the extra ordinary benefits were offered by the accounts department from their own pocket and by unauthorized use of organizational resources in order to manipulate independent view of auditors.

Dear All

I want to make it clear I have no personal allergy with C.A’s. Even I always show respect to Mr. Kamran, but you have all seen the language used by him for me and this is not first time. I have mentioned that I have four year of practical experience and I think minimum duration of article is 3 year It does not suit a person (Who is partner in a CA firm) to compare his personality with me. I have said at many places that I started my career from an audit firm. I have been working through out my professional career under the supervision of professional accountants (FCA’s/FCMA’s). If I analysis the relation with my seniors it was much frank and warm with CA’s as compare to CMA’s. One of my ex boss, who is an ex-trainee of AFF, from whom firm I started my career still keep in touch with me and many times has done much for me.

Regards,

Awais Aftab

[kamranACA]

GreatKhans

First of all let me tell you that beyond the forum based general perception which we drive from the posts of our fellows and upon the foundation of which I have drawn a nice picture of yours in my mind, I also owe you the debt of regard and friendly gesture because you once accepted my request which was presumably not worthy of acceptance due to so many obvious reasons.

I know my last post could have been written on "lower notes" but I also believe that such tone was set by the post of Awais which raised weird questions that were too illiterate, uninformed, indecent, hilarious, and personalized which called for the need of such a reply. Believe you me I assured myself as to the justification of writing this post as a reply before finally submitting it on the forum. If you wish to know the justification, I will come back to you with explanation on each of the paragraphs in my post.

I don't know Awais personally, and have no intimacy as well as allergy with him. I only replied the questions raised in his post (since these were not recommendatory points for others or an institute) on the merit that was required and it happened due to his own style embedded in his drafting. However, unless and until he is not a qualified CMA he is not taken to be as CMA and is not in any particular focus.

I have all the regard for ICMAP's contribution in the country and its professionals (CMAs) who are working locally or abroad since they all are professionals and strengthen our name due to their profound services. Here on this forum, we criticize so many policies of ICAP, ICMAP as well as various other institutes constructively, merely to clarify our understanding and place on record the significant things so that if some one visits the forum or wishes to get clues from the discussion can be benefited. This, we believe, will in return benefit all of us as well. This of course is not aimed at to disgrace any one, since we are quite tiny against the apex bodies that are supported by the people of wisdom and exposure. However, discussing decent suggestions does not undermine anything or disgrace any one.

On another front, if some one asks a question to start or build the foundation of his career, and as a result some other fellow shares his views as to which qualification is leading due to market drive and carries promising future, this should also not be taken negatively since it is the question of some one’s future. Facts cannot be changed, so no one should feel endangered. Yes, if some one has different view point as to the market conditions he must setout his opinion for the common well being. This is an ongoing process and the forum owners have confirmed this understanding so many times.

In one of my earlier posts, I told you that if some where I have gone indecent it is/was my fault and is by no means a thing on which I should feel proud. However, there is a very grave situation on the other hand which our brothers should also keep in view.

Since you are probably also representing CMAs, I wish to convey some of examples to you. These are found on all threads wherever some thing weird is replied. I wish you and all others to read it and if I am wrong, let me know as well. A few things are


1. Even the qualified and sensible CMAs use to shift their all failures or pitfalls or deficiencies on the shoulders of CAs or ICAP. I don’t know why they do it regardless that it is very indecent, weird, unjustified, and merely an allegation. The people who believe in their capabilities, strengths, and faith do not raise such strange and indecent allegations. CMAs are in public sector much more than CAs. You can analyze the figures. Still, some fellows feel that CAs have never let them take a lead. How could it have happened over the ages my brother even if some one has any instance at a given point of time? Did CAs do it every where e.g. SECP, SBP, Stock Exchanges, FBR, Public Sector, Private Sector, Banks, Industries, NBFCs so forth and so on? I in my earlier posts mentioned of some panels of auditors. Was every where sitting a CA who abstained all from bringing forward CMAs? Is it not hilarious if some one raises these allegations? If every where such a CA was sitting then where did our CMAs go?

I wonder that none of the CMA member or student ever comes forward to say that this is a matter of disgrace for their own-selves so if any one is saying such stuff should not do it.

Contrary to it, if some one else clarifies the situation, all CMA brothers (of whom I have due regard) come forward and convey their concerns on the replies given.


2. People like this buddy Awais get personalized and don’t mind mentioning CA firms and their clients’ names on the forum and don’t feel any issue in publicly defaming big-4s or others for no reason. It’s simply defamation and nothing else since such people are not clear on the subject. You will never see any CA on this forum mentioning any ACMA’s name for such purposes. You will appreciate that it’s not impossible since individuals can always have pitfalls and acts of individuals cannot defame a profession or an institute. {You Mashallah yourself appear to be a very good researcher on such issues and you know it’s not difficult, be it about any one}.

Here none of our CMA fellows raises any objection on this all personalized non-sense and when some one tries to clarify the matter and tells an uninformed person that what actually should be done and where his allegation is baseless and defamatory, fellows at once appear and ask why such answer is given and why it is not on lower notes.


3. Some ill-mannered people make baseless points specifically mentioning ICAP’s name just because they are unaware of something. For example here Awais highlighted a clause of Code of Ethics of ICAP (just to support his indecent and incorrect attempt of humiliating this apex institute). He does not know that IFAC bodies as a must have to comply with IFAC’s prescribed ethical requirements. If he was not able to understand it, he should have at least learnt what clause (xxxviii) of Code of Corporate Governance prescribes for auditors in Pakistan. Let me copy this clause here for your reference

“No listed company shall appoint as external auditors a firm of auditors which firm or a partner of which firm is non-compliant with the International Federation of Accountants' (IFAC) Guidelines on Code of Ethics, as adopted by the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Pakistan.”

He does not know that clause 260 of the Code of ICAP is exactly the same as clause 260 ((260.1 to 260.3) of IFAC’s code is. And, this is what law of Pakistan i.e. code of corporate governance strictly requires to be complied with. I hope ICMAP being member of IFAC has also adopted same code of ethics of IFAC; and if this is the case what this buddy was pointing out? Does he advocate doing some thing against the law of Pakistan? When a reply is given such fellows reply “they are yet students and are not expected to have fullest knowledge, and that, in Pakistan bala bala should be better than western countries”. Was there some nudity seen in such clause of code that they were mentioning of western countries? Is it not strange? Still they say why they are tried to be called illiterate. Should ICAP go against Pakistani law? Bhai knowledge nahi hai tu pooch lo aur knowledge kay bina chonch band rakho ya kisi decent tareeqay say poochho.

However, when such people are told that they are unaware or uninformed or illiterate on a subject, my brothers intervene and say I should have not replied baseless allegation. This is not about Awais, rather applies on a number of examples on this forum. I accept your view point that words of the reply should be on lower notes but why my brothers like you don’t comment on the wording and style of the indecent question itself?


4. Certain buddies are so confidently uninformed that they feel that financials are the responsibility of auditors, shortcomings in financials should be removed by auditors, and management has no role in it and if auditor asks to keep quiet even on a righteous issue management is supposed to do so as it is auditors’ responsibility to prepare financials. “ajeeb daastan hai yeh” {This is the first thing that is taught in auditing. Yet they feel to get audit rights. I have no objections on it by the way}. They feel all Pakistan is non-complying IAS-12 and IAS-19 and this fact is known only to them. Allah ke panah. I don’t want to undermine any one but for the sake of reply I firmly believe that it is lack of knowledge at their very much personalized level.

When such confident uninformed buddies are replied (even on a meritorious and righteous ground), my fellows and brothers ask why it has been done. Why they don’t raise any concern on the validity of the question at first? Believe you me, I bet no one in past has done so and no one in future will do it.


5. Some uninformed people say that ICAP members and students don’t criticize ICAP’s policies and don’t suggest improvements or discuss weak areas at the forum. This of course is nothing but a closed eye comment because they just fail to figure out what is being discussed at other threads and sub-forums.

When they are told to open the eyes and don’t get confused, my brothers stop me that why such reply has been given.



So, dear GreatKhans,

I request you and other fellows who have a regard in my heart that although I owe you the debt of love, kindness and affection for the reason of your kind behaviour and I cannot deny your request on such an issue, still please step-in as well when indecency prevails as a result of illiterate defamatory posts submitted by such ill-mannered people.

GreatKhans,

If you feel like having a modification in my previous or this post, do suggest and I will honour your requirement.


Regards,



KAMRAN.

[tariqsohail]

Kamran,

I really appreciate your effort of taking so much time in replying and justifying your post but my dear I am sorry to say that despite of the fact that you are deeply pulling out examples..again you fail to understand what I mean to say.

You attack Awais at personal level and this is what I alert you in my previous post but I think either you are not understanding or don't want to understand.

If you are blaming Awais that he write wrong facts (due to whatever reasons)..what you did in your posts. Which code of ethics allows you to attack somebody at personal level?.

I am again saying that everybody have right of difference of opinion and if you disagree with somebody then give your points with example (which you already given) but you don't have any right to go at personal level. At extreme level you can quit that discussion by putting reason of your exit but still you don't have right to degrade somebody.

Try to understand my writing..this will benfit you and other members of the forum who might consider you as model for pursuing their study (ICAP).

Regards.

[kamranACA]

{This post is in reply of latest post of Awais; and not of Tariq}


Folks,

People can forget something at a given moment but if they are reminded, they should accept what the fact is; and if they do so, it is not a stubborn or illiterate act.

“Illiteracy” here denotes lack of knowledge, having a proud on such lack of knowledge and defaming others for a grave misconception and proud base of deficient knowledge. Such illiteracy comes when one makes out a base-less case for defaming some one else and where the one stick to his view point considering it the right stuff.

The example referred in quotation does not show any indecency based upon lack of knowledge, a proud on such lacking etc,; and it was also proved right on that thread. Even on that thread this confused mind was talking about "badla" etc that is totally non-professional and on which none of CMA came to object that “Ohh Mr. this is a discussion forum and if you were unaware of one leg of the case and have been told, it was nothing like badla.” I however even at that thread told him that it would not serve the purpose of the forum if it is taken as “badla”. It appears, he is tide in the thought of “badla”. When some one fells in such situation, then he produces the things which we saw in his previous posts and in the recent post.


So dear Awais,

Please come out of the vicious circle of "mix vegetables", "quality restaurants", "VIP treatment", "vehicles" bala bala since you don't know the basics of this field. You yourself have proved it by continuing on your incorrect stance. Auditors are appointed by shareholders and not by management; their remuneration and facilities are determined by shareholders and not by management or bottom line managers. If you need to do something, go back to shareholders (through your seniors) and get things placed on record. Don't just feel jealous for the VIP treatment given to others just because you don’t understand what the matter in fact is. Yes, also try to understand that law no where relaxes private limited companies from the condition of “recording” and “maintaining” record minutes of the meetings. Make your records clear and strengthened and then point out the ill-mannered individuals (if any) to the Audit Engagement partner of your firm of auditors. Don’t just baselessly make arguments.

In fact audit is a very elegant profession and auditors are taken to be the representatives of stakeholders by the management and also as guests. Further, people at large recognize the fact that the audit staff is in student life. Oftenly senior management of clients treats them as respected guests which I know at so many entities create issues for so many Manager Accounts. But they just forget that they are no body in the matter of auditors, their remuneration and facilities. It is the issue of shareholders, and/or top executive management on behalf of shareholders.

This is the “hospitality” in most of the cases (where “mix vegetables” is not an issue) which even we auditors show to the clients’ personnel when they visit us. I hardly know a single day in my office when such quality meals, quality tea, coffee, soft drinks or juices are not served to the guests (mostly our clients) depending upon suitability of time. Here is the explanation that what “hospitality” means. I am telling it not merely for you (as you have assumed); rather this is for others who also visit this thread. Code of ethics says, “the existence and significance of any threat will depend upon on the nature, value, and intent of the offer.” The things which don’t carry threats and are inconsequential or of normal course of business in nature do not create any threat are considered normal and are allowed based upon the assessment. If in a town every where auditors are given such a valued treatment on similar basis, then at your entity such rule does not necessarily change unless you have written agreed terms with auditors to which you can enforce. Certainly such terms are decided by shareholders and not by managers.

You are habitually mentioning names of organizations like Hydro Carbon, Big-4, Malik and Company etc and you don’t at all feel these are personalized acts for obvious reasons. You failed to understand the issue at e.g. Hydro Carbon Institute which some of your friend told you. You, being inspired of his idea, have clicked a point (which I suggest you not to do so since it does not suit you) and are writing posts mentioning name of Hydro Carbon Institute that bala bala was done for getting better reports. I have a friend at Hydro Carbon and I just confirmed what has actually gone through. Do you know their “draft” reports have been disclaimed invariably at all locations by their auditors? Do you in fact know what is “disclaimer of opinion”???? I told you that you are ignorant of facts and you are continuously feeling proud of it. Management of Hydro Carbon (at one or two locations only) is of course preparing all deficient record and information and finding all deficient documentation to get a bit better situation in “Final” reports to be issued by auditors. This is what a very senior official of Hydro Carbon told me in the today’s afternoon.

…..…..{So, exactly this example proves that what is “Hospitality” and why it is not supposed to create “threats” for audit. This line is separately written for Dard who asked me a question}………….

About Malik and Company, you have yourself told that action has been taken against them. Yes, we agree every non-professional behavior in audit profession should be reprimanded. Since it has been done, your point is invalid. About Big-4 you could not offer any proof or evidence. I know if we will check each of your case studies, we will find you wrong in most of areas.

I would again write here a piece of advice that if your shareholders or higher management, on their behalf, feel that any audit staff member is crossing decent limits of rights, obligations and Hospitality, they should clarify the matter with the audit firm. This is the reason companies are required to maintain transparent record of every transaction, covenant and event having financial consequence and no such exemption is given to private limited companies. However, since this matter is beyond your vision and control you cannot do anything and if management or shareholders have no issue with it then don’t try to poke your nose in this matter. This might be well within the limits of Hospitality but out of the frame of your thought. If you will not understand it, I fear time may crush very personalized sentiments in the fight of giants.

I hope you cannot understand it.

Regards,


KAMRAN.

[kamranACA]

Dear Tariq

Don't please worry about what people will feel about me and whether or not they will treat me as role model. However, I understand what you have written and may I be doing what you have requested. Just wait a bit.

I have accepted in my post that indecent language, even used by me, is incorrect. However, it was meant to and was necessary to clear a defamatory post of the bird of some feather.

The issue still remains unresolved, why my post (that is only posted as a reply to clarify the things) creates problems for you but the model of indecency only deserves your words "DUE TO WHATEVER REASONS". This is what I requested GreaKhans to look at as well since he is also of the view that I should have used soft words. You at once gave another example. I am copying a portion of your written line hereunder

"you are blaming Awais that he write wrong facts (due to whatever reasons).."

For God sake learn to speak truth. Nothing else is my issue here.

Let me wait for GreatKhans reply; I will modify my previous and subsequent posts, provided height of indecency is removed as well. Have some patience please, I believe in honoring friends and reasonable people.

Regards,


KAMRAN.

[tariqsohail]

Kamran,

Your post

"For God sake learn to speak truth"

By the way who told you that I am not speaking truth..also provide points where I deny to speak truth ever on this forum.

Yes but that's true that I can not write what somebody's mind is assuming that I should write.

[awaisaftab]

corruption is obvious in every field of our culture (including in audit firms). If one deny it then it means he is closing his eyes. I cannot say anything about a person who is accepting voluntary blindness. I am sorry to say Mr. Kamran advocating ICAP and audit firms blindly. There was no need of writing long posts. The answer of the points raised by me was very simple but kamran sahab ko us waqt tak maza nhn ata jub tak RUJ k dosre ki pagri na uchal lain. The answer was that corruption is bitter reality of our society and CA's are also part of this system.

[awaisaftab]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tariqsohail</i>
<br />Kamran,

I really appreciate your effort of taking so much time in replying and justifying your post but my dear I am sorry to say that despite of the fact that you are deeply pulling out examples..again you fail to understand what I mean to say.

You attack Awais at personal level and this is what I alert you in my previous post but I think either you are not understanding or don't want to understand.

If you are blaming Awais that he write wrong facts (due to whatever reasons)..what you did in your posts. Which code of ethics allows you to attack somebody at personal level?.

I am again saying that everybody have right of difference of opinion and if you disagree with somebody then give your points with example (which you already given) but you don't have any right to go at personal level. At extreme level you can quit that discussion by putting reason of your exit but still you don't have right to degrade somebody.

Try to understand my writing..this will benfit you and other members of the forum who might consider you as model for pursuing their study (ICAP).

Regards.
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Tariq thaks for honour that you have for me.

[Greatkhans]

Hi Kamran ,

I wouldn’t ask you to amend, alter, rescind or delete any part of your post because I don’t believe in distorting the history. It should remain on the forum as it is. However, I would like to share my experience in a very generic sense so that no one could feel offending.

I remember that in 1988, I was working on a World Bank project in rural Sind, where a financial consultant visited and being head of finance, I had close relationship with him. When he was leaving for UK, I asked him, “What did you learn anything from us? “ He smiled and said “Yes, shifting of responsibility.”

It has become our national instinct that we are not open to listen and learn. We have lost tolerance as nation and our behaviour is nondemocratic. Each member (I have no exception) of our society thinks that I am the best human being, the best Muslim, the most experienced and knowledgeable person, my educational institution is the best in the world etc. As a result some very petty issue which could have been avoided very easily, become very big problems. This is called “Self Centered Disorder” and everyone is suffering from it at a certain level. If we read various post of this forum, no matter what the topic is, it turns to ICAP VS ICMA/ACCA/CIMA/ICAEW etc debate, because of this attitude.

As far as “Ethics” issue is concerned. I might not have as much knowledge as other forum members have, but the only thing that I know is that IFAC is like general assembly of the UNO, where every member institute has representation. Our role on that forum is just like our role in UNO. So it should not be a matter of prestige. On the other hand corruption has penetrated in our society so deeply that we all are part of that willingly or unwillingly. CAs/CMAs have no exception. Remember that laws come before the ethical standards. We have a tendency that we feel pride in breaking the laws. So in this scenario we should not take standards of ethics and morality on test.

No doubt that ICAP is playing an important role in the development of the profession in Pakistan, as it should. But we should also understand that it is a regulatory body too. I think some people expect the regulators to step in, as we expect police to catch and judiciary to take punitive actions against violators. It is human psychology that the laws are not obeyed but enforced. But the question is that do we go to regulators when we notice any violation?

I have no objection on the technical side of your post but my reservation was only on the tone of the post. I thinks that we should give some discount to our juniors who are in learning phase.



Awais,

I always advise you that do not jump to conclusions, and give verdicts on a particular issue. You should drive a few miles extra; refer to authoritative literature and material, such as Acts, Ordinances, Standards, explanations, proclamation, Interpretations and technical bulletins about the issue and then form a valid opinion with a due diligence defence. You should ask questions as how ICAP ensures that every members of the institute has gone through the Ethical standards? does institute conducts any ethics exam? Does institute requires its members to take an oath to abide by the ethical standards as happens in many countries of the world? How audit of the auditors is conducted? How institute ensure that adequate quality control standards are in place and operational in the firms? ICAP representative like Kamran are there to help in this regard.

Never take the names of persons and firm on public forums and report incidents of misconduct unless you have documentary evidence for the violations of a standard or law. Nor threaten anyone in public. Sometimes we say something and we are not aware of the repercussion effects later in our life.


Again, in my opinion, your prime focus should be your CMA certification and everything comes later. I have been advising you as elder brother because I have experience many fold more than you, so as education, position and age. I do appreciate your emotions, commitment, conviction and passion for the development of the profession, but it requires consolidated efforts.

I hope you all would not feel my comments offending and continue your positive contributions on the forum.

Regards,

GREAT KHANS

[shani420]

Dear Greatkhans
I had a perception that u would be a newly qualified young professional.But if u were working at a good post in 1988 than u might even be senior to Kamran sab and the rest.It is great that u take out time to help junior.May u prosper.
Regards.

[kamranACA]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by awaisaftab</i>
<br />corruption is obvious in every field of our culture (including in audit firms). If one deny it then it means he is closing his eyes. I cannot say anything about a person who is accepting voluntary blindness. I am sorry to say Mr. Kamran advocating ICAP and audit firms blindly. There was no need of writing long posts. The answer of the points raised by me was very simple but kamran sahab ko us waqt tak maza nhn ata jub tak RUJ k dosre ki pagri na uchal lain. The answer was that corruption is bitter reality of our society and CA's are also part of this system.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


What a decent conclusion it has been tried to reach at after creating all the mess that has resulted in aggravated situation at this thread.

The man with “three sharp eyes” has seen that Mr. Kamran is "blindly" advocating ICAP but could not see the factual and authentic replies to his uninformed and indecent questions. He has already proved that he does not in fact know what is or was going on at various threads since it is obvious from his "three eyed" repeated comment on two threads that “no one criticizes ICAP or makes suggestions to it". I wish he develop the ability to use his "three eyes".

Were the following also looked at by the kind wisdom of this visionary man

- that I asked him if he knows about full process of oversight functions, monitoring, QCR satisfactory rating, Quality Assurance Board and its members, which companies can conduct audit of listed entities and how they get such right, what are audit panels of SBP, Modarabas, Stock Exchanges etc, how ICAP members are reprimanded upon doing invalid acts, how much such cases were surfaced and decided during last some years ..... so on ..... and so forth.

- that I told him what is "Hospitality" and why IFAC's code is vital to be followed as per law of Pakistan. I mentioned of a clause of Code of Corporate Governance on which this “consultant of corporate laws” did not bother to look at.

- that I agreed and also tried to make him understand that corruption is personalized thing and its instances can be found invariably everywhere including CAs or CMAs as well. However, on public forums mentioning such names without any knowledge of the facts and without any proof or basis is another example of moral turpitude that is not lesser serious than the act of corruption itself. Laws and procedures are a check on it but cannot preclude their existence at all. Yes, so far honest system is in place that is effective and efficient, things cannot go out of control and the corruption at such level cannot escape such check for the longer run.

- that I educated him about the responsibilities in relation to an audit in accordance with ISA-200 that he was totally uninformed of, regardless of his claim of having abilities to perform audit.

- that I challenged him that he is incorrect and is supposed to misunderstand and misinterpret the facts on the issue of big-4 and their services under section 204A of the Companies Ordinance, 1984 (under specific arrangement that he is not able to understand) that he highlighted without having a sense that what is "personalized".

- that I told him not to make statements about IAS-12 and IAS-19 if he his-self don't understand such pronouncements.

Certainly his vision has not pondered on this all indirect informational stuff which I produced for his help.

He very innocently is declaring that a very simple answer was required to clarify the things and that Mr. Kamran has done bala bala with his Pagri. Certainly a simple answer with quite lower notes could have served the purpose provided there was in fact a Pagri some where.

However, if the question has been drafted in indecent, inhumanly and non-professional manner; if the question has mentioned the names of CAs/firms, names of their audit clients (from which firms can be identified), and the details of very very petty issues in most of places by mentioning names of firms or providing clues about them. And, on the other hand, the question had been drafted with fullest of confusion based upon fullest of misunderstanding and shortage of knowledge, misinterpretation, modifying of facts etc, then these two elements coupled with the style of writing down the post ask for nothing but the reply that has been given.

Simple answer to this last "innocent" and "three eyed" post is; please try to learn how simple and decent such a question can be drafted and posted so that simple and straightforward answer could be expected.

Sorry for all the inconvenience to the readers.

Regards,