Shariah-compliant Dressing in Audit Firms

[Muhammad Amir]

Actually Dear Pracs i ALHAMDOOLLILAH read all posts regularly espesially of KamranACA.............

what ever you think what ever you say i have no right to shut you and your thoughts......i highly believe in the day called "ROZ-E-MEHSHAR" where all will be proved and no one cay say that its injudicious....so ROZ-E-MEHSHAR.....all will be clear every thing would then see what was right and what was wrong...i also read the post of KamranACA where he decleared TALIBANS(May Allah Help Them) as Illetrate people of Madersahas...it's his point of view i can't block his thoughts and his sayings what ever he things right he post here......but the reallity is not much far away and remember onething HAQ have always face troubles and have lot of Enemies because of HAQ........where as Batil always have no enemy and faces no troubles.....

What is Haq and What is batil the decisions are not far away....

All of us will be gathered in "Medan-e-Mehshar"then we all will see what was truth and what was not...

And so if any one is having a view that TALIBANS were Jahils and MADDARES were outdated and their students are Jahils it's his point of view one can't block his thoughts...................you also can say whatever you want to anyone........

and in last i also want to Appoligize that because of my some rash comments you were angry and shown your anger on me i once again appologize of all harsh words i used those which i used i shouldn't use them but HUMAN can do mistake i did it but i also appologize it and i also hope that you will forgive me.......

Regrads
Muhammad Amir

[kamranACA]

Dear Amir,

I wish not to reply ur posts some times but the circumstances make it compulsory for me to clarify some issues.

It has been true in so many cases in the history still, I do not crudely agree to the statement that Haq has always faced troubles and has lots of Enemies.....where as Batil always has no enemy and faces no troubles.

In my view whenever Haq was in power (or the representatives of Haq) it unfortunately did the same things and exercised its powers in the same fashion as it is done by others or is expected to be done by others. This has always heppened in history.

When we destroy the Idols of others like we did in the era of Mehmood Ghaznavi, then why we should not expect it for us when others would be in power. Penetrating someone else's country and first of all destroying the worship places of inhabitants is questionable. We have done this all and we admire it extremely. Then why we object such acts of others. Naoozbillah I am not supporting any act done by Kuffaar but I am only explaining that whenever Muslims were in power they did the same things as others are expected to do.

In my view, HAQ and BATIL both are enemies of each other. Further, every one in his/her own thought is Haq and in others' thought Batil. Both are attackers and defendents at the same time. Innocency only rests with those who are not in power.

I feel that whoever was or is in power did not/does not do well. We have to study the history from both angles.

Regards,

Kamran.

[Pracs]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Muhammad Amir</i>
<br />Actually Dear Pracs i ALHAMDOOLLILAH read all posts regularly espesially of KamranACA.............

what ever you think what ever you say i have no right to shut you and your thoughts......i highly believe in the day called "ROZ-E-MEHSHAR" where all will be proved and no one cay say that its injudicious....so ROZ-E-MEHSHAR.....all will be clear every thing would then see what was right and what was wrong...i also read the post of KamranACA where he decleared TALIBANS(May Allah Help Them) as Illetrate people of Madersahas...it's his point of view i can't block his thoughts and his sayings what ever he things right he post here......but the reallity is not much far away and remember onething HAQ have always face troubles and have lot of Enemies because of HAQ........where as Batil always have no enemy and faces no troubles.....

What is Haq and What is batil the decisions are not far away....

All of us will be gathered in "Medan-e-Mehshar"then we all will see what was truth and what was not...

And so if any one is having a view that TALIBANS were Jahils and MADDARES were outdated and their students are Jahils it's his point of view one can't block his thoughts...................you also can say whatever you want to anyone........

and in last i also want to Appoligize that because of my some rash comments you were angry and shown your anger on me i once again appologize of all harsh words i used those which i used i shouldn't use them but HUMAN can do mistake i did it but i also appologize it and i also hope that you will forgive me.......

Regrads
Muhammad Amir
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Buddy, do you really think Taliban, were on the right path., I won't say they were illiterate, but seemingly stupid and well stupid ! they let the Americans into their country (Afghanistan being occupied for the first time in written history !! the Russians were in but never got hold of the country) by being rigid and harbouring terrorist (I hope this does not start another debate here). The blood of innocent people is on their hands and believe me they did no one favours, not even themselves, least of all to the Muslim Ummah.

Well, we will agree to differ, so be it..

[kamranACA]

Dears,

One needs to watch the videos of the Taalibaan acts. They were used to punish their women with sticks and shoes on the road crosses. They were used to kill humans in general public without detailed trials at courts. They were inclined to eliminate all diplomatic relationships with the entire world. They were against the studies/education of females. This is not a propaganda, this is a reality. They were giving assylum to all terrorists of the world. One has to see the example of Indian Airlines Hijacking and then landing at Afghanistan and all the subsequent drama. We are living in a diplomatic world. I feel that Jehad is extremely necessary for Muslims but every one should know the conditions of Jehad and way out for declaring Jehad. These supports to hijackings were not Jehad. Every one except Taalibaans were hating Taalibaan. Why? It is a big question.

I dont know whether or not it was for Islam but Islam does not allow this way out to the things. There are only one or two examples of Taaliban's good attitude with foreigners but this should happen in all the life code.

It seems that we Muslims are declaring the world that we are Naoozbillah Naoozbillah only meant for destruction and killings. This is off course not a reality. I dont discuss anything happened after the WISAAL of the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him but I know that none of the war was started by muslims until the Fatah Makkah. This does not show that Muslims were weak. One needs to see the results of every Ghazva specially Ghazva-e-Khaiber. Muslims were really upto the requirements to face every one. But every war was a reply from Muslims against the wars imposed by Kuffaar or the wars which were just to be imposed through all the conspiracies. And I always quote Fatah-e-Makkah. What a great tolerance and affection muslims showed to Kuffaar. These Kuffaar included every one like Abu Sufiyan (before accepting Islam) and Hinda. What better than it could be expected.

Islam did not present a picture of society that has been shown by Taalibaans. Such rigidity had NAOOZBILLAH never been a part of the agenda of Khulfaai-e-Raashideen Raziallah. Then who is being followed by Taalibaans. Islam requires muslims to preach the non-muslims (to convey the message). Islam requires the muslims to always have updated preparations to face Kuffaar. I have studies all these requirements. But this does not mean to do the things which have been done by Taalibaan.

I need not to speak so much on this issue becoz every one knows about them.

Besides above, I understand that upto the regime of Ronald Raigon, USA wanted the Jehad and such organizations to flourish and expand. They provided them arms and amunition against Russian war. They were treating such people as heros. Becoz they were indirectly securing the purposes of USA. Now USA does not need their services and accordingly since the regime of George Bush Senior, such organizations are being called as terrorists.

We should have our own culture, attitude and behaviour. We should not be a toy in others hands. Further, we Pakistanies are not sincere to our country and our religion. Every thing which happens here is done by our own hands. No one comes from USA or India to do such acts. It is strange that we rarely find a single man who is honest in any governmental departments. Eevery one is at the top of corruption. We feel pain when international agencies declare us most corrupt in the world but we never do anything to improve our ownselves.

I think at the moment we are so ruined and so much destroyed that we first of all need to correct ourselves. I start it from myself and have made a promise to my own mind that I will never be dishonest in whole of my Life. May Allah help me fulfilling this promise.

Best regards,

Kamran.

[Schuaeb]

I would have lesser objections on Taliban had they not preached Talibanization in the guise of Islam. May be all was not wrong in their regime yet they have caused much harm to Islam

[Muhammad Amir]

All of have your own thoughts and whatever you heared and saw in media you posted here...
I know hundreds of people who went to Afghanistan and do Jehad not only at the time of Russia but also with Taliban.These people are eye witness of their era and even compare that era with "Door-e-Farouqi"....
They established a depertment called "Ammr-e-Bil Ma'aroof Wa Nahi Unil Munkar"..... and did so much for the promoting Islam...even Arab Uleam-e-Kirams were also with them and lots of well known Arab Ulemas Support the cause of Talibans...infact lot of arab Ulemas wrote the letter to Ammer-ul-Mouminenn(Mullah Muhammad Umer Mujahid[May allah Bless him])by stating that they are fully supporting Talibans cause bespite the fact that Arab Ulemas are in some extent against the Sect of Talibans and this is enough to prove the nobel cause of Talibals...

not only you people i have seen lot of people who are aginst talibans but i request to all of you that criticism should not be for the sake of only criticism go and ask from people who has some stake in this nobel movement........
I saw some of the post of Mr KamranACA the most honerable and exteem member nost respectful he also criticised the fact that Mehmood Ghaznavi(Rehimullah) destroyed the Idol at the "Soomnath Mandir"...but dear KamranACA did you ever read what was the whole circumstance that lead him to destroy that Idol...and those golden words he said at that was "Mehmood kay liay Bout Faroosh say Bout Shikan Hona Behtar"....i love these words and these words are Enlightened way for all Muslims....

Also i read his comments that Talibans are extremly rigid and they started using sticks and shoes for their women and they also were aginst the education of women this is truth in some extent but Mr KamranACA do you know the facts why they were aginst the women education(only Dunawi Taleem) and do you know the facts that why they also use sticks for Women(for those who are not properly Vield).....Mr KamranACA see the world near you see the events near you now a days what is not happening in our country also so of the women wearing such clothes which already looks soo nude....lot of women showing their full inside structure by wearing appealing cloths..what all this going on.......A person(Sharief)can't go to market can't attend classes if he want to attend classes he should sit in the last of row of class why just because such nude dressing of opposite sex....and this is very natural that women always attract men and this universal divine rule...so the conclusion is that if women are properly dressed and they hide themselves and their bodies then their is nothing to increase lewdness in country...

the only crime of Taliban is that they were working for truly the sake of Islam for truly to propagate Islam and this crime lead all Kuffars to broke their Ammrat-e-Shariiah Islami.......
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">They were giving assylum to all terrorists of the world. One has to see the example of Indian Airlines Hijacking and then landing at Afghanistan and all the subsequent drama<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
this is wrong by the way what do you mean by All terrorists of the world...those whom you think are terrorists are actually not terrorists...also you quoted the incident of Indian air lines Hijacking do you know why that plane was hijacked because the most famous Mujahedeens like Moulana Masood Azhar was imprisoned at "TEHHAR JAIL" by indian army and to release them from Tehhar Jail some of the great minds done this....also for you information Teharr Jail is one of the most worse Jail in world how badley they injured those Mujahedeen's should also known to us and actually they were not doing Jehad in India but in Kashmir for the Independence of Musims...

May Allah give all of us sense to see the reallity and sense to hear both side views

Regards
Muhammad Amir

[Pracs]

Amir,

The only thing that the Taliban can be credited for is unifying Afghanistan by bringing under their writ the various waring factions and 'appointing' their own Governors in the various provinces. Why not do a SWOT analysis of the 'reign of Taliban'

Positives
1) Unifying Afghanistan
2) Bringing some form of law and order
3) Eradicating poppy growth/Drugs (heroin/hash/cocanine etc)

Negatives
1) Potraying Islam in the most negative way to the rest of the world, by carrying out mindless actions which did nothing positive for the people or Islam in general; a couple of examples destroying the thousands of years old Bhudda Statues (even Mahmoud Ghaznavi spared those, beating up the Pakistani football team because they wore shorts shorter than the Taliban specs.

2) Locking up women in their homes,banning most professions to Women, closure of girl schools

3) Denying women medical treatment (of whatever was left) because the doctors were male

4) Imposing their brand of Islam (one particular sect) on all, presecuting other sects

5) Forcing non muslims to wear yellow bands !

6) Harbouring secretarian murderers wanted in Pakistan in Afghanistan

7) And the biggest of all, bringing their country to what it is today by refusing to co operate (ther could have been various levels of co operation had they decided to negotiate)

I am not an expert on relegious affairs or for that matter politics, but these are basic facts which we all know and is similar to quite an extent from all forms of media,.. its not that we are brain washed or some thing, these are facts

Arab ulemas are nothing of an authentication for a 'certification' look at their societies rather a mirror if Islammic values.

Taliban were nothing short of an 'engineered' generation of fighters created through America and Saudi money and Pakistani expertiese. I am sorry to break your bubble their, but its better not to have a belief system that is based on a flimsy romantic notion than on concrete ideology.

[kamranACA]

Dear Amir,

I again have to reply main points of ur post.

Background of the incident of Mehmood Ghaznavi. Yes, I have read the whole story. Since I dont much appreciate penetrating other countries or war imposition on other nations without being personally feared/harmed by them, I personally dont much appreciate this incident. This has nothing to do with the personal abilities, quotes and nobaility of an emporer like Mehmood Ghaznavi. This has to do with the strategies of a government only. I feel that these all are the historical reasons behind the incidents like Babari Mosque. Every one in history has done similar acts, when he was in power regardless of whether he was muslim or kaafir.

All supporters of Talibaans say that whatever they were doing was confined to their own country then why USA has objected on their own affairs. This is exactly what makes me to think that if we Muslims are of this view, then why did we interfere others' affairs in Mehmood Ghaznavi's regime. If we use our mind then this question arises. However, if we dont use this God gifted box then no question appears on any aspect of life.

Whatever SOMNAT was doing was confined to their nation and their country and was entirely not affecting the Ghazni. If we now raise question that muslims were also living near SOMNAT and were affected by their conflicting beliefs and preaches then we should not forget that so many non-muslims and non-talibaans have been badly affected in Talibaan's regime in aghanistan as well. I just want to show the both sides of the picture.

I wish to quote a Hadees here. The Prophet PBUH once said to muslims, that you must not abuse the untrue gods (and idols) of Kuffaars. Becoz If you will do so, they will in turn abuse your true God (Naoozbillah). {I think Mr. Amir must have seen this Hadees}.

This was a big lesson for the muslims. Our problem is that we leave the instructions of the Prophet PBUH and start analysing Islam as per our ideas. Whereas we have been asked to leave what Prophet PBUH abstains us and get what he PBUH gives us. If some one will refer the incident of breaking idols in KHANA KABA, he must note that KHANA KABA was a worship place of followers of Din-e-Ibrahim and was wrongly occupied by the Kuffaars. Muslims and Prophet PBUH did not break any idol placed in the worship places of Kuffaars and their homes.

When now world has changed totally, then we muslims should have to progress with the time and must look forward to all advancements and technical developments. What AMAR BIL MAAROOF WA NAHI ANNIL MUNKIR of Talibaan has done by the way. If a few faranggies (one or two) were preached and became muslim, this does not show a big achievment whereas the whole world disliked them at the same time and they caused a big destruction and Crusade against muslims as a whole when politically this should have been avoided becoz we are not upto it without preparation.

You said in your post that you know so many who went to Afghanistan from Pakistan and participated in so-called Jehad (which was also mainly against other sects of Muslims) and who state that "what not and what not" has been done by Talibaans. By the way, all such guys in my view were not doing Jehad and if they think they have done, then they have to look on the conditions of Jehad under a Muslim government. I must point out that those were Pakistani citizens and were not afghanies. They have to judge their Jehad in view of Pakistani writ of government. Such guys who left Pakistan (mainly illegally) and came back should be searched out and must be punished under immigration rules and regulations. If you know them with proofs, you should inform the law enforcing agencies. Just an advice. These are the guys who are responsible for GHADDAR that is currently prevailing in islamic world.

I refer a quote from Pracs' post "Arab ulemas are nothing of an authentication for a 'certification' look at their societies rather a mirror if Islammic values." I totally agree with his statement and dont go for detailed reply in this regard.

Now the issue of beating the women and banning their DUNYAVI EDUCATION. Islam no where authorised to punish women for not taking veils. In fact veils have never been made the part of PARDA by Islam. The problem is that we dont look at the realities. Veils are just an endeavor to pressurize the women, in my view, unless some female personally likes it to wear. One needs to study and understand the requirements of Soorah-e-Nisa and Soorah-e-Noor for defining PARDA.

In my view PARDA cannot be more than what has strictly been suggested and practiced during HAJJ since hundreds of the years. Every one knows that the IHRAAM of HAJJ specific for females does not include any veil. Now I dont believe that there was a single female in Afghanistan who was wearing dresses as you pointed out about the pakistani girls who sit in your class rooms. I dont appreciate those dresses in general becoz these really depict nudity. The only problem with afghani women was that they sometimes did not take veils. Veils are not strictly mentioned as a requirement by Holy Quran. This was strict rigidity of MULLAH UMER AND COMPANY to beat such females with sticks and shoes at the road crosses. This can never be proved valid or appreciable.

Dunyavi Education is a must for females as well. We are not living in the era of stones. When Prophet PBUH said that CONCIEVE THE KNOWLEDGE (EDUCATION), EVEN THIS REQUIRES YOU TO GO TO CHINA. In this Hadees, women have not been excluded. This was an order to every muslim. Was it not? You must know that at that time all DINI Education was at ARAB and China was referred only to point out the Dunyaavi Education. By the way, china at that time was very advanced in textiles, silk manufacturing and machine manufacturing. (Machines used at that time). China was also advanced in health education at that time.

I wonder how your Talibaans concluded that DUNYAVI TALEEM should be banned for females. You cannot quote a single Quranic Verse in support of this thought. Due to this, any Hadees or any other quote, if given against it, will be considered ZAEEF (weak) as it would not e supported by Quran. I wonder what Islam they were portraying. There must be a reason behind their destruction.

Indian Airplane. The big/great minds worked and relieved Mr. Masood Azher. I have never been into TAHAAR JAIL and dont have any experience of it. However, I have read a lot about it when I studied Charles ***H Raj's stories and also saw a documentary on National Geographic. Whatever those great minds did, those were a sect specific minds and dont depict the act of whole muslims community. The Jehad-e-Kashmir becomes valid becoz Hindus do so much offences at Kashmir. This is a separate issue and requires detailed delibrations. But whether going to Kashmir illegally counts as Jehad when we are the inhabitants of an independently governed muslim country. At the moment, I dont get into its details. Immigration laws must be observed and implemented by the Government agencies.

However, the act of TALIBAANs in case of Masood Azher's hijacked plane did not show the positive behaviour of an islamic country. These all are the (so-called) great mind decisions which have now destructed all that was owned by them and has also caused greatest danger to islamic nations as a whole. You can also find out such other GREAT MIND decisions as well which lead to destruction and brought us to the condition currently in vogue. One of such great mind was of Saddam Hussain.

If some thing has left, I will reply to calrify my position very soon.

Best regards,

Kamran.

[Schuaeb]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Muhammad Amir</i>
<br />why they were aginst the women education(only Dunawi Taleem)
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Education cannot be splited into DEENI and DUNYAWI. And mind my words all taleem on this earth is DEENI which has been made FARZ for all muslim men and women

[Schuaeb]

Now who told you guyz that Ghaznavi is a hero of Islam. He was just a ruler or you can say as a great conquer, as it was the criterion to judge rulers those days.

He never attacked subcontinent with objectives of preaching Islam. His sole objective was looting jewels of Somnath, what he did successfully. And his expeditions also involved massacre of the civilians (no matter of what faith) In today's world you can call him a lutera. However, such were the norms those days

[Pracs]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Schuaeb</i>
<br />
He never attacked subcontinent with objectives of preaching Islam. His sole objective was looting jewels of Somnath, what he did successfully. And his expeditions also involved massacre of the civilians (no matter of what faith) In today's world you can call him a lutera. However, such were the norms those days<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


No one in the Muslim world has ever attacked to preach Islam, there may have been military incursions to 'safe gaurd the rights of a muslim minority or otherwise', re M Bin Qasim,


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

then why did we interfere others' affairs in Mehmood Ghaznavi's regime. Now Kamran give me answer why Muslims interfere in other affairs Hazrat Umer's regime? To collect Jazia is what western historians say

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now what was that about ? what are you trying to say, why is 'Jazia' being brought into this, whenever 'Jazia' was collected in a Muslim state, it was a parallel tax, muslims were levied with Zakat/Ushar plus muslims contributed to the 'Armed forces'. Since non Muslims were exempt from all this they paid the 'Jazia tax'

[kamranACA]

Dears,

I dont have any humanly objections on JAZIA becoz we all are paying similar things to our government. There has been made no distinction between taxation of muslims and non-muslims in pakistan which was in existence in that period. Again, this was a DUNYAVI matter of general administration and cannot attract big offensive allegations. Same Westrens when penetrated our areas did similar things and imposed various taxes (even on crops of agrarians) and took various free of cost labours.

The point started from distinguishing between the doings of HAQ and BATIL. I raised a point that whenevr HAQ was in power, it has done almost same things which are expected from others. I when quoting examples of Islam, only refer the wars which were fought during the life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. I specifically mention FATAH MAKKAH. These were the example of greatest behaviour of muslims. The mulim emporers who came in governments during later periods were not upto it and there behaviour raises questions. All muslim emporers like Ghaznavi, Mughals Abbasies etc are being pointed out.

After the Wisaal of Prophet PBUH so much was gone wrong and I in my personal capacity cannot comment on it becoz there come very big names when we discuss such issues. So many points could be counted which had gone wrong in that period.

And we must note that all such points counted are not wrong. There was some thing which lead the shahaadat of our three Kaliphs. Among the murderers of Hazrat Usman-e-Ghani Raziallah, was a guy who was the son of Hazrat Abu Bakar Siddique Raziallah. At the time of shahaadat, he captured the beard (Darhi Mubarik) of Hazrat Usman Raziallah in his hands (Naoozbillah). When he did so, Hazrat Usman Raziallah said, "you know your father had a great respect for this beared". So the foundation was shattered by the men who were among the muslims. Who was YAZEED? Why there was a war between Hazrat Ali Karamallah Wajho's followers with the followers of Hazrat Ayesha Raziallah that killed thousands of noble muslims? These all are big issues and incidents for which our text books, general books, history books and our Ulema do not even speak.

We dont have to fight with any one other muslim if he wants to know the details of such problems embedded in the history of Islam.

Hazrat Umar Bin Khattab Raziallah have fought many wars. He was a great man of ALLAH and he must have reasons to do so. My mind is very tiny and my thought is very restricted. He must has done what was right. As Pracs say that there could have been problems of safe guarding some muslim minorities. In some cases when messengers of Islam went to other nations with a message of Islam, they were killed by such nations. In such cases (it is still the international rule that if some one's Ambassador is killed, war could be imposed) war was not a wrong action. Further, in many cases, Kufaar were involved in conspiracies and planning big wars against muslims. In scuh cases, they were stopped in their areas by sending muslims armies before their entering into the muslim territories. There were many reasons of such wars. One needs to study the history of Islam. You cant compare such wars with Mehmood Ghaznavi's attacks.

Still, I know that any Kaliph including Hazrat Umar Bin Khattab was not a Prophet (Naoozbillah). As such they were not directly guided by WAHI. They took decisions after counselling with other muslims and keeping in view other factors at various times. They were the most most noble men of ALLAH and they did not do anything which in their understanding was against the sayings of Propeht PBUH. STILL WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT THEY WERE NOT DIRECTLY GUIDED THROUGH wahi. Here lies the main difference.

One cannot forget that Hazrat Umar Bin Khattab Raziallah never used any facility for his ownself. We know the incidents where an arabian rudely asked Hazrat Umar R.Z. about his dress which was not supposed to be prepared from one cloth sheet while as per share of cloth sheets Hazrat Umar R.z. was suposed to get only one sheet. On the question of arabian the son of Hazrat Umar replied that yes his father's dress could not be made out of one sheet thats why he gifted his father his own share. After this clarification that arabian was not given any punishment. Rather, Hazrat Umar R.z. appreciated him very much and said that until the time such men would be the part of muslim Ummah, this Ummah will not go wrong.

We know that Hazrat Umar R.Z. was used to sleep in hut where he did not even have a gud bed and covers etc. He was used to sleep on ground and taking some brick under his head.

Any of his wars cannot be concluded to be supported by some personal intents (Naoozbillah). No personal benefit was ever taken.

Still, for a guideline I have faith on what has occured during the life of Prophet PBUH.

Jehad is still a duty for muslims. But we must have to make preparation for it. In no war, muslims were defeated in the era of Hazrat Umar Bin Khattaab R.Z. Why? Becoz muslims were a balanced power having greatest faiths.

We need to become a power. And we need to have greatest faiths.

Unfortunately both are missing.

So we cant do what those men of ALLAH have done. I have no doubt on it.

Best regards,

Kamran.

[Pracs]

We must remember two things,

1) The period of th Caliphate Rashadeen is the most ideal period in Islamic history, although ofcourse it is not comparable to that of the Prophet PBUH.

2) There is no point in comparing any of the other Muslim Kings/Caliphs/Maharajahs with the peiord of the Caliphate Rashadeen.

I think point one should be quite clear beyond any doubt, as Kamran has pointed out the Caliphs were after all humans, not prophets and to err is human. Having said that their personal as well as professional lives were beyond any blemish and so was their death (3 of the 4 being assasinated by way of one conspirasy or another). If we read through their times I cannot see how they would have done any better.

Hazarat Abu Bakr Siddique, led the Muslims at the most troubled time he re inforced the basics of Zakat and false prophets, that was the most critical time in the history of Islam post the Prophet PBUH (NAZOBILLAH I am not saying that things would have been undone but he held the fort and nullified any wrong concepts about the Prophet Muhammad PBUH) He was able to avert the 'Christening' of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, as the Christians had once Hazrat Issa was removed from this world.

Hazrat Umar, was instrumental in putting in the foundations of the Islamic state, establishing a proper Army, formal taxes, welfare state (so as to the welfare benefit in some Scandanavian was referred to as the OMAR TAX until recently). He extended the Islamic Society to the borders they are today, upto Makran in the East, Bukhara and Samarkand in the North and Maghrib (Morocco) in the west. It laid the foundation of a state that made it possible to extend beyond its border and at one point in time boast major Muslim states in Spain, India.

Hazrat Usman's greatest contribution was to put in the official written Quran, quite the need in his day and age when the Islamic state was being extended beyond the realm of the 'Arabic speaking populace'

Hazrat Ali's time though the first instance of factional war (with Hazrat Ayesha) had its peaks and witheld all the idealistic rapport of the first three Caliphs, his time also laid the foundation of the tradition of Knowledge in jurisprudence and later science.

Secondly,

Thereafter, all we had were Monarchies, with the heads either called Caliphs or Sulatans or Shahs or Mahrajahs. Some where good models of government and other were not, in their capacity as Kingdoms and Fiefdoms they expanded their writ to other places (muslim or not) and this included all forms of massacare and pilferage (being quite the norm of the day)

In Mahmud of Ghaznavi, there were massacres of both non muslims and muslims to day that he was an idol detroyer is correct, to say that his intentions were purely Islamic is wrong, but he tipped the balance of power in the way of Muhammad Ghori who came in later to form the First Muslim Sultanat in India. By breaking into the most powerful economical and political base of the Clergy he helped achieve that, what it also did was strike terror in the hearts of the local Rajas,. who fell one after the other and so did their following generations to Muhammad Ghori. So he was a hero to us because he made it possible for Muslim rule and thereby provide a base for Muslim preachers.

Nadir Shah is another case in example, who ransacked Delhi (and in doing so killing the local populace on the way Hindu and Muslim alike) but broke the back of the Marathas, who never recovered thereafter. I am sure the demography of present day India would have been quite different if things had gone differently.

Lets not play into the hands of so called Western historians or policy makers or whatever, let's not forget the fact that the Civilised world were at each others throats just 60 years ago.. nuking civilians, gas chambers..... all Christians I must say, and well.. some Buddhist (see the irony there) so why beat about muslims on it,, we have nothing to be appologetic about.

[Pracs]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
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We need to become a power. And we need to have greatest faiths.

Unfortunately both are missing.

So we cant do what those men of ALLAH have done. I have no doubt on it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just to add on although faith has a lot to do, we need systems and laws and morals.. as were laid down in the time of Hazrat Umar

[kamranACA]

Dears,

Pracs has given a very good clarification for the whole story being discussed.

I again mention that I never wanted to be appologetic and dont want other muslims to be in front of jews or christians for what we have done in past. I also mentioned in an earlier post that Westren people have doen so much. We need to study the history of india at least. Poor farmers of india were looted by their representatives. Forced labour has been taken in so many areas of the world and every thing has been done by them not only with muslims but with so many other nations.

However, muslims cannot do wrong just becoz the others have done so. If this has to be done in similar fashion then why muslims/islam is needed in the world? Let every one do whatever he/she wants. Dont intervene with God's messages. If we have to convey God's messages then we must behave better than others. If others attacked (without any reason) on various countries to expand their power and to rob the innocents, it must not become a reason for muslims to penetrate others lands, snatch their properties, pick up their girls and do all injustice. Believe you me this has happened. Some friends may feel pain with these words but we muslims have done all this in past.

I do not have any objection on personal character of Mehmood Ghaznavi. But can any one explain that when we have destroyed the worship places of Hindus when we were in power then why we should be in pain if they demolish the babri mosque when they are in power. When this happned so many MANDDERS were destroyed in Pakistan. I have seen with my eyes. What was the fault of hindus who are Pakistanies and who pay tax (JAZIA) to our government. This is the utmost depth of one's character and behaviour. We cant go more down than it.

I just want to explain that so much has been rooted by our elders which is being harvested by us. I was also in pain when Babari Mosque incident happened but I even at that time felt that it is a reaction. And this happens when power balance changes.

Since every one has done so much, I personally dont have much objections personally on the doings of muslim attackers. However, I am only of the view that whenever HAQ was in power it has done the similar things as are expeted from BATIL at the time of being in power. I have firm belief on it. I dont include the Khulfa-e-Rashideen's period in above analysis. They never did anything for their benefits.

Further, there remained so many HAQs in muslims and so many BATILs at the same time. Even some muslim sects remained BATIL for other sects. This still happens. So my point is that we cant and should not crudly define on human basis HAQ and BATIL. These words have been used in HOLY QURAN becoz it is KALAM-e-ELLAHI.

If we wud fight each other or make big exclaimations of being on HAQ and declare all others or some of others or a few of opponent idealogy people as BATIL then it would be quite unfair. These words HAQ and BATIL were used here by some friend pin pointing me and Pracs, therefore, I wanted to explain the HAQ and BATIL and its doings in past.

Mr. Pracs has mentioned in his message

"I think point one should be quite clear beyond any doubt, as Kamran has pointed out the Caliphs were after all humans, not prophets and to err is human."

I take this oppurtunity to explain/correct that all Prophets were Humans. I quote the Hadees where Prophet PBUH said that "I am a human like you all, but the difference is that I concieve WAHI from God." {Ana Bashar-o-Mislokum Yooha Illayah}....

So prophets were also humans but they were not subject to errors as they were directly guided by Allah. I think Mr. Pracs was also of same view and it was just a typing issue.

Best regards,

Kamran.