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Actuary info required !
03-10-2004, 05:15 PM,
#16
 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
lisetn..can ne of u plz tell me the website of institute of actuaries?secondly i wanted to know that if i wanna go to uk...n i wanna get admission in ioa, then whats the procedure. also ne idea that if i study actuarial sciences from ioa, then how long will it take to bcum an actuary..and wats their criteria for the admission? there was this guy..he was in ioa..i think..dun remember his name..if u could help me out here..id be grateful..please reply soon

Idealist
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

idealist, visit www.beanactuary.com the site has a lot of info and links to a number of sites including IoA and SOA. hope it helps. if yo want to take the institute exams, you dont really need to go to england, you can study and take the exams and work for experience at the same time right here in pakistan.

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03-10-2004, 06:05 PM,
#17
 
I totally agree with DT. This is a serious place of intellectual discussions and behaviour like that of Mr.Apocalypse should not be tolerated.
Anyway, regarding his query on interest, I think it has unfortunately become an integral part of commerce these days and whether you do Actaurial Science,CA,MBA,CMA or whatever it is almost impossible to avoid. Any thoughts.....


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03-11-2004, 05:28 AM,
#18
 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
First of all Mr.DT i addressed FTG in my reply (who incidently happens to be my friend since last seven years), even if you think that I addressed you then wont you like to anwer my query about halal&haram in acturial sciences.

hoping for a much relevant reply.

Apocalypse


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

I dont think my answer would be welcomed, but let me reply to your Halal and Haram question because no one else has...

Yes there is a lot of Haraam stuff in CA, and considering that you pointed out Actuary as well, I presume you must be thinking about the Insurance sector... Different scholars have different opinions on it, so we just can't jump to a conclusion and point out that Insurance is Haraam...

Secondly, Actuaries and CAs don't have to stick to their traditional jobs, such as Audit and Insurance sector respectively... We have a lot of Accountants in Pakistan now working as 'Financial Analysts' and that has always been a specialised job for Actuaries as the Insurance sector in Pakistan is not that huge.

So I guess it depends more on where you want yourself to be.

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03-11-2004, 06:22 AM,
#19
 
hoping for a much relevant reply.

[/quote]

"I totally agree with DT. This is a serious place of intellectual discussions and behaviour like that of Mr.Apocalypse should not be tolerated."

This is what your mate had to say in responce to what I said. Anyways, I don't think I am qualified enough to answer your "halal / haram" question. Further more, I feel that no body with the exception of you and FTG, would know about your contacts, therefore, just like a normal member, it didn't seen quite adequate to write such comments that regretfully you wrote. Having said this, I am not looking forward to any argument further.

DT


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03-11-2004, 07:10 AM,
#20
 
Of course Faraz you should now forget me dont try to relax between us, the relations during time will soon diminishes, stay away as you deserve. We have to plan, from now never think in ending this fight. Visits of ours at houses on different times and places, of course they will be never be remembered. Give me if any, source of information to where at I get all weapons. After our next meeting tommorow's you will visit hospital, I will shoot you& succeed I hope inshallah.

(to understand more clearly read again and skip first two words and read the third one every time)




To this forum

I want to know that what is the scope of an actuary in Pakistan and if I intend to stay in Pakistan then which board is better IOA or SOA.


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03-12-2004, 12:51 AM,
#21
 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
First of all Mr.DT i addressed FTG in my reply (who incidently happens to be my friend since last seven years), even if you think that I addressed you then wont you like to anwer my query about halal&haram in acturial sciences.

hoping for a much relevant reply.

Apocalypse


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

I dont think my answer would be welcomed, but let me reply to your Halal and Haram question because no one else has...

Yes there is a lot of Haraam stuff in CA, and considering that you pointed out Actuary as well, I presume you must be thinking about the Insurance sector... Different scholars have different opinions on it, so we just can't jump to a conclusion and point out that Insurance is Haraam...

Secondly, Actuaries and CAs don't have to stick to their traditional jobs, such as Audit and Insurance sector respectively... We have a lot of Accountants in Pakistan now working as 'Financial Analysts' and that has always been a specialised job for Actuaries as the Insurance sector in Pakistan is not that huge.

So I guess it depends more on where you want yourself to be.


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

sumaan,
yeah i agree, it's a pretty controversial issue about these finance professions and there hasnt been a clear cut stand on the halaal/haram by any scholars too. but all the interest and the tax saving techniques and other financial assurances and consultancies that actuaries and chartered accountants provide must be classified by religious scholars and they must identify what is lawful and what isn't.
are you a student or in the profession? and what field are you into?



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03-12-2004, 01:48 AM,
#22
 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Thanks for all the info you guys. TCA, it would be great if you could give me the contacts and/or addresses of the training organisations you mentioned.


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

faraz,
did you receive my pmsg yesterday?
in case you didnt, the addresses for the firms are
Akhtar & Hasan actuaries
Statelife bldg 1
chudrigar road.

Sidat hyder morshed mgmt consultants
beaumont plaza
behind PIDC bldg.

statelife insurance corp of pakistan
statelife bldg 1
chundrigar road,
karachi.

unfortunately i dont have their phone numbers at the moment, but the addresses are very easy and simple and you wont have any difficulty finding the offces. theres no uses calling them on phone anyway as you wont be able to get much out of them that way. they are all very cooperatiove and friednly and there are no formalities like appointments for students; you just visit them and get the info you need. hope it helps. if you still need numbers let me know and i might be able to find them for you.


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03-12-2004, 04:34 AM,
#23
 
Fortunately i have got some information about Sidat Hyder

Company name Ford Rhodes Sidat Hyder & Company
Company address Progressive Plaza, Beaumont Road
Postal code 75530
Phone 021-5693536
Fax 021-5685625
Email urooj.khan@sidathyder.com.pk
Website http//www.sidathyder.com.pk
No. of employees 1200
Year of establishment 1983
Contact person Ali Omar G. Morshad
Designation Director

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03-13-2004, 01:55 AM,
#24
 
^thanks apocalypse.

and faraz, received your email. do let me know what happens when you visist the places.

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03-13-2004, 03:08 AM,
#25
 
TCA your information was partly corrrect, but we made the most out of it, Akhtar & Hassan Actuaries have their office in building no 1, we went there and met a guy who himself was a member of IOA, he told us lot of about relavant things and many interesing facts too, like a number of students became an actuary in just three years and there are people who have givenup after fifteen years of studies.

Thanks a lot TCA and others.

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03-20-2004, 09:05 PM,
#26
 
www.soa.org
www.actuaries.org
www.beanactuary.org

All relevant info is up there in the links I mentioned,

Hope it helps.


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03-20-2004, 10:59 PM,
#27
 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
www.soa.org
www.actuaries.org
www.beanactuary.org

All relevant info is up there in the links I mentioned,

Hope it helps.



<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

Actuary2B,

Would you mind letting us know where are you studying for the Actuarial Exams, and that whether are you with any organisation, who is funding your studies?

Thanks

DT


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03-21-2004, 12:30 AM,
#28
 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Apocalypse First of all Mr.DT i addressed FTG in my reply (who incidently happens to be my friend since last seven years), even if you think that I addressed you then wont you like to anwer my query about halal&haram in acturial sciences. hoping for a much relevant reply. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

mmm, can I poke my nose (once and for the last time) in the little discussion that was going on here??

The scholars have disagreements over the legitimacy of (Life/General)Insurance in Shariyaa i-e whether its Halal or Haram?

I'll try to explain only the General Insurance here (which is my future area of speciality), I've little idea about how Life Insurance works.

Main points of different scholars who consider Insurance as HARAM

1)Insurance involves Gambling(Jua). If a loss occurs during the policy period, the insurer will pay you the benefit and you win!. If a loss doesn't occur you lose premium's money!

2)Insurance is something against the will of GOD. You receive financial help from insurer if you incurr a loss (insured event).

3)There is an element of high risk involved i-e you either win or
lose (see above example)

4)Insurance involves Interest(Sood), most insurance companies invest the policyholder's premium in schemes with fixed Interest arrangements.

Scholars who thought that Insurance(itself) isn't HARAM, Infact its the "Interest(Sood)" that makes it haram, have the following answers to above reasons, respectively

1)Insurance differs from Gambling. In gambling you put Rs5/- and makes it into Rs500,000 (or even Rs5,000,000) i-e there is NO benfit limit in Gambling. As a Gambler, you can make more and more money as long as you are winning. In insurance, you don't get UNLIMITED benefits e.g

An Automobile insurance company insures your new car whose value is Rs 2,20,000. You use it for 2 years, after that you experience a severe loss resulting in total damage. Your insurance Company will see the cost of new car (2,20,000) decrease it by the Depreciation amount for 2 years (lets say 20,000) and will make you the payment of no greater than 2,00,000 i-e you won't be RICH due to the occurrence of an insured event(the accident) due to insurance. But you'll be protected from total ruin because of the existance of insurance. This is the "FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF INDEMNITY" underlying most of the General Insurance policies.

Insurance is a "protection" that will save you from a great financial loss or Total ruin in case of an insured event but won't make you wealthy. So, there is a difference b/w Gambling and Insurance.

2)God has given men the wisdom to make decisions to protect himself from the possible calamities. You put roof on home to give yourself shelter against the rain (you don't keep standing in rain). Pehlay apna Janvar rassi sey baandho, phir Allah pey Tawakkal karo.

3)There is an element of risk involved (smaller or greater) in all the businesses we do in a daily life. There appears to be NO business with not even a slightest element of risk. Insurance is a business in which the policyholder buys a product(although intagible) named as "a peace of mind" i-e If I experience a loss, me or my family won't get ruined because of Insurance protection. In reply, the Insurance Company promises to compensate me for the losses I incurrer but won't make me wealthy b/c of an Insurance policy.

4)Sood is Haram and any Muslim can't deny this. Insurance in its present form is not appropriate because of the involvemnt of Interest in it, But it CAN BE tailored to be in line with Islamic Principles. In many Middle East & Western Countires Islamic Insurance (named as "TAKKAFUL")is being provided by many Muslim FIA's (Fellow of IoA, U.K). For Islamic insurance, the insurance companies will have to invest the premiums collected from policyholders in interest-free businesses and will have to pay for benefits from the income they earn on those interest-free businesses.

However, even with TAKKAFUL, the problem arises when it comes to "Reinsurance" of Islamic Insurance. There aren't many financially strong "RE-TAKKAFUL" companies to provide Reinsurance to Takkaful companies. In the end even the TAKKAFUL companies have to end-up being "reinsuring" their risks with the foreign reinsurers and the Scholars have allowed it in-evitably, until there are strong enough
Re-Takkaful companies, so there will be no need to get involved with Foreign Reinsurer.

Unfortunately in Pakistan, we don't have enough Actuarial involvement
in designing Islamic Life Insurance products until now. However, I do know atleast one FSA (Mr.Abdul Rahim Abdul Wahab in Sydat Hyder Morshed Associates) who has started working in Islamic Insurance.

In a nut-shell, many Scholars think that Insurance (itself) isn't Haram, but the presence of Sood (in its current form) makes it Haram. If Insurance can be tailored to eliminate the presence of Interest(Sood), it could be in line with Islamic Principles.

So question appears, who is going to modify Insurance structure to make it into purely Islamic shape??

The answer is Muslim Actuaries. Actuaries are experts in Insurance matters and right now, there isn't any formal Muslim Actuarial track to get Actuarial students educated in Islamic insurance. In the end one has to qualify via the foreign Actuarial route and he/she can then work for promoting Islamic insurance. Otherwise we'll always have to rely on Interest-based insurance to get financial protection.

I'm neither a Scholar nor a qualified Actuarial Consultant (still
an Actuarial Student). But my personal view is more in line with the second-mentioned scholars. My plan is to get as much work-experience abroad as I can (no matter if any or all of the experience is gained by working in non-Islamic insurance industry) and then to come back here in Pakistan to utilize my experience in promoting Islamic Insurance. I consider it as a service to both my religion as well as to my career as an Actuary )


As a last note, A qualified FSA/FIA/FCAS/FFA need NOT to work ONLY in Insurance. There are 5 speciality tracks on SoA side and "Individual Life Insurance" is one of them. You can always choose NOT to work in "Life Insurance" and still being a successful "Pension" or "Health" Actuary etc e.g Akhtar & Hassan consultants work primarily in "Pensions", they don't work in Life Insurance at all.

Hope this ugly & lengthy explanation helps,
-Ali

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03-22-2004, 03:45 AM,
#29
 
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Actuary2B, Would you mind letting us know where are you studying for the Actuarial Exams, and that whether are you with any organisation, who is funding your studies? Thanks DT <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

I can afford to pay exam fees myself. For SOA(U.S) track, the exams fees under "DISCOUNT FEE PROGRAM" is $50 perexam for initial exams while $100 perexam for upper exams.

The Actual exam fees are pretty high, SoA has a DISCOUNT FEE PROGRAM for students in 3rd world countries. For taking exams under this reduced-fee program, the students have to registered themselves via an application to SoA.

IoA(U.K) also has a reduced-fee program for students in Pakistan. Generally speaking, the exams fees for IoA exams are even cheaper than SoA's. I don't have exact idea about IoA exam fees since Ivn't taken any exams under IoA.

You can get the DISCOUNT FEE Application forms, perparation materials for first few IoA/SoA exams,exam syllabi,exam application forms and all other relevent info about the career from the following address

Statelife Bluiding#9,
6th floor, Actuarial division
Dr.Ziauddin Ahmed Road,Karachi

Good luck,

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03-22-2004, 10:54 PM,
#30
 
Thanks a lot ali, after all my question has been answered.

Ali, in which city do you live and if in karachi, can you please give me your contact no. i am starting acturial studies and need some guidelines.

Taanks
Fahad

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