Accountancy Forum

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
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I need not to blast anyone; but everyone may like to have a blast at his own ) since they say, "it's fun to be young". Kidding!

Forum is a place where ideas are shared in a typical sequence of query-answer-query-answer; and if someone has a right to put the query, others are leveraged with a right of answering. I hope one can understand that so far both remain within the limits of decency, nothing can be tagged as a "blast" in a sense it has been used.

Having said that, <b>I also wish to reiterate my pleasure to see the people crying for not being associated with ICAP, though indirectly. </b>I can imagine how sad it is. However, a kind advice is that, please market yourself at your own and do not use ICAP’s name for winning any sympathies or a market share.

We have been seeing this trend from the outset and we know this has to continue. Still, this is nothing to feel odd for; rest assured.

Regards,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I hope i am not the one! ). Not going into kiddish arguments, i have already mentioned that i have no grudges against the local body securing its interest in a market that belongs to it naturally.

Secondly, i accept the fact that ICAP is not responsible for students opting for foreign qualifications in Pakistan. It has no obligation to quit its policy of promoting itself to give space to other qualifications. Further, it has all the right to promote its intesrest even if such actions are deterimental to foreign qualifications.

For all those students who do not opt for ICAP are responsible for themselves and they must know in advance, where would they want to move from there....making their own way.

Personally, i am one of those students who did not opt for ICAP going against advises of many close CA relevatives and never even registeered for module D expemtion even though i completed my 3.5 years too in Pakistan highlighting the fact that there are few people in Pakistan who simply don't adopt ICAP accepting as it is. I have craved my own path without having grudges against anyone. Allah ka karam after my articles i had very lucrative manager level job offer from my ex client. A salary that even qualified CAs may never get. Which means if you are good at your work respect follows. You might take it as a bluff and you are free to do so.

Of course it is "fun to be young" but its also a little naive to consider everyone "ÿoung". Its a habit that most of us "seniors" adopt during our articles period. Sadly we don't quit the attitude later on considering everyone "ÿoung" or a tucha in desi language. May be <b>Imran Hasnain</b> is also "young" but he may also be a 40 year old person with heaps of knowledge and experience under his belt. Its hard to judge on a forum isnt it?

The reason to give you a little hint about my background is because next time if you see me criticizing, don't jump to the conclusion that someone has regrets of not beign with ICAP. Rather take it constructively as i dont beleive in unprofessional arguments.

My queries pertaining to ICAP is out of curosity. Rescentlý CPA and CIMA signed a MOU and i was very curious to know about it too. Doesn't mean i regret not doing CIMA over ACCA or the "crying" perception. As a Finance Professional i keep myself updated with whats happening with professional bodies around.

Next time i would expect profesisonal replies from you regarding any matter that includes ICAP. I hope i am not expecting too much.

The "Blasting" part was a little unprofessional and humor in a sense which i shall avoid.

Back to thread, my questions were,


- is it professional on part of ICAP to copy ICAEW syllabus as it is?

- Will ICAP feel threatened if Pakistanis start going for ICAP membership through ICAEW route. The whole policy of keeping prestige through keeping low number of members will be jeapordized.

- Are there any exam reductions planned or replace or new additions is the plan.

Overall im glad to see this long due revision of syllabus. Its time to fall in line.

Did you cry for being not associated with ICAP? If no, then it's meaningless to build out a connectivity or linkage for yourself. However, you need to recheck your attempt of labeling the firm¡¦s attitude with something vaguely called as ICAP¡¦s monopoly. If a CA firm adopts a policy of not inducting the ACCA trainees, it is not something that has been preached or required by ICAP. I can tell you this with fullest responsibility. So, I hope you would think in an improved way in future. By the way, I could not understand why you call yourself a ¡§victim¡¨ of ICAP¡¦s monopoly when you also mention that not joining the ICAP¡¦s programme was one of your own decisions and that the firms denied to accept you. Where does ICAP come in between? ƒº You are on good job, is a pleasing news and whatever you are getting is achieved by a Pakistani, and is as such, a pride for us. Why would we be denying your successes?

You specifically opted to be personal, and regardless of having been clarified that how a discussion moves in blog activity, are grousing for the answer that was ¡¥almost¡¦ warranted. Friendly suggestion is to check the entire sequence once again. However, it is nice to see an outright upturn in your last post. Keep it up. By the way I wrote, ¡§they say, it is fun to be young¡¨. In my view the entire life is a fun provided we define and follow the limits. It refers someone else¡¦s act when you use the word ¡§they¡¨. Here again you linked it with the ¡§senior¡¨ of ¡§articles¡¨ which indicates something that has been denied. Anyway, I am not much concerned with it.

Coming to your queries and taking up the most important one first; let me assure you that the ones who would achieve ICAEW¡¦s membership through the routes other than qualifying its exams will PROBABLY not be considered for memberships by ICAP. This is the rule worldwide, if you can check with other institutes of the world. The word ¡¥probably¡¦ indicates that perhaps this rule has not been declared in black and white but can be done at any time as a matter of policy declaration or revision. I once, in a dinner, talked to one of the Vice Presidents of ICAP that this policy should be declared, and he replied that it can any time be documented if needed. So, cool down on this very matter.

In many of the UK colonial countries, so much has been historically taken ¡¥as it is¡¦ from British. In Bangla Desh, whose literacy is much better than us, they have adopted the entire syllabus of ICAEW ¡¥as it is¡¦ and that did not became a question of disrespect for them. In fact we in Pakistan have taken ICEAW¡¦s syllabus framework as a role model since it is one of the proven syllabuses. However, we did not jeopardize our local requirements since a number of subjects have been structured keeping in view what exactly we need. If you go down to its contents, there is nothing new that was not previously being studied or examined, except for a few routine developments. It is merely a matter of structuring of syllabus and why it has been done, I will tell you shortly. Pakistan is one and only sub-continent country that has adopted all to-date IFRSs (with all interpretations) except for IFRS-1, and all ISAs except for Clarified ISA 600. However, the adoption of these two standards is under consideration as well and target dates are not far sited. This is a biggest achievement for the profession as well as students of a country like us, and none other than ICAP has a role in getting to this target. After having achieved this, the contents of the syllabus of the most of the institutes in the world are meant to be same and this obviously had to happen since the core is same. {You cannot quote the examples of the institutes or countries that are NOT fully compliant to IFRSs or ISAs.} The issue is only of fragmentation and structuring into various modules. Now, let me tell you the vision behind structuring the syllabus as such. This is done (by all countries who follow some standardized syllabus contents) to ease out the process of understanding by other institutes of the world who are geared up to have in place MRAs. Such other institutes mostly have evaluated the syllabus of ICEAW and when such a syllabus structure will be used, the time to be taken by the process of mutual evaluation will reduce. Such institutes include CICA and ICAA etc. ICAP members already have only 2-3 papers requirement to qualify ICEAW and likewise, ICEAW members need to qualify a similar number of papers for being eligible to get into a public practice as a chartered accountant in Pakistan. Yes, they can become the member of ICAP without passing such papers but CANNOT initiate the practice as a chartered accountant in Pakistan unless they have qualified the required number of papers. Similar to ICEAW, currently ICAP is in dialogue with CICA whose delegates have also visited ICAP. Hopefully we will get better outcome of this process.

As far as exam reductions or additions are concerned, this needs to be inquired from ICAP and I hope if you are interested and raise such a query, it will be responded.

I hope your queries have been answered.

Regards,

I agree and disagree with you on few points Kamran Bhai. Further dicussion will derail the thread.

I hope we will keep interacting later on allowing constructive criticism and open communication to come up with frutiful arugments and debates. Keeping the humor alive will not hurt either.
Your experience and achievements in the profession is never denied of course and i hope you will remain unbaised and respectful to others as well. Same goes for other professionals including myself.

Thankyou for answering the queries. Agreed.


Regards

@KamranACA

ICAP is the only one institute of the world who accept membership either through qualifying exams and training or through reciprocal membership. If doubt call to your institute. dont use the words probable in forums.

@ShahidACCA

Allah gifted the human being a pair of EYES to look at the things and a BRAIN to understand them.

Pls ensure their proper usage.

You are an ACCA perhaps; complete your ICAEW requirements, get its membership and appear for the so-called reciprocal arrangement to check what has been predicted (with some inside knowledge of the trade).

And yes, don't guide me what to do on the forum. There is a Moderator for this purpose, so let him do his job.

Regards,


KAMRAN

@KamranACA

I think your advice fit on you, because you just look your institute with your eyes and think only about the prestige of your institute with your brain(may be narrow)

As far as reciprocal membership, just ask from your institute that how they give membership to other institute.

and infact it is necessary to guide other peoples when their eyes focus on one thing and brain is concentrated on just one institute.

This is what we call "chore bhi kahay chore chore". )

In every trade, and for that purpose, in equivalence terms, the world is always open for the changes and whenever someone rushes in, he is stopped by placing appropriate barriers. I have already told all the details, BUT still, have recommended you to give a try to what you believe for the reciprocal arrangements, whenever you get to be the member of your dreamed institute.

Don't mind buddy, in fact no one of CAs have ever been found complaining for the childish things which others like you do as a habit in this blog activity. Check out any sub-forum and any particular thread. We only reply your complaints and inform you the reasons for the things which tease you or make a basis for your complaints.

The entire forum is full of grouses from ACCAs over non-availability of desired exemptions etc. If you wish to do 'something' for your people, pls tell them that there is NOT A SINGLE INSTITUTE in the world. (this "just one institute" is also a creation of same mentality which I am pin-pointing). WE ALREADY KNOW THIS FACT and are still happy with what we possess and know where the difference lies!

Accept the facts and don't portray a state of mind crying out for the sour grapes. Not an advice, just a suggestion !!!

Regards,

@KamranACA

You used those proverb which 100% fit on your sweet institute. why, you know better. My dear you always weeping that ACCAs asked for reduced exemptions, the reason is that ICAP has used ACCA in Pakistan for their associates benefits, before june 2002 you better know the exemptions in ICAP for ACCA

you should realize now that your baseless long post could not stop student to join ACCA, it is increasing. Lastly dont critize ACCA because it model institute for ICAP and it copy most of its policies to attract students in Pakistan but you know the result that how many students joined ICAP since 1996 comparing with ACCA in Pakistan, and the main reason is that ICAP is dominating the "BABAs" who majority get CAs qualficiation in 1961 with bunder bant.

I am sure you are the ICAP market department employee, so this cheap method of advertising will not work

You are doing nothing but to provide one of the best examples of what the people like you are exactly.

What was available to ACCAs before 2002 and not now is exactly the thing which I informed you. Whenever someone rushes in, appropriate barriers are raised, and this is the right of everyone, and no one is asked to tell what we have to do. Had the people like you been carrying an ability to understand the things then your circumstances would have been bit different. ) Pls note once again, we don't have any issue with you people, rather, you exist because we have given a place to you for such existence. There have been given/discussed a number of examples and factors to support what I am saying, so I don't get into a lenghthy discussion on it again.

It is only you people who have been crying out your heart by posting the stuff which we are once again receiving from you. So, as soon as you would stop crying about "BABAs", "only one institute", "before 2002", "exemptions", and "attitude of firms" etc, things would improve because everyone has to excel in this same world, though kargas ka jahaan aur hai, shaaheen ka jahaan aur. Now, it is upto you, where you tend to categorize yourself. I wish you to choose a better category for yourself.

Talking without knowledge is one of your prime and well-known characteristic, so I don't tend to provide you the exact data that how much CA students have increased over the period. If you really are curious and wish to correct your info, do an appropriate research. For a food of thought, I have already given such data once on this forum which can be searched, and a "decently" increasing trend can be witnessed. Here "decently" par thora zore hai.

Blind abundance of anything in the market does not make it the leader of the trade. Rather, it indicates the inferior quality, and supply-demand imbalance which result in a cheaper price. I know you cannot understand it, still, use the God gifted capacity to grasp the facts which you have also read in your curriculum, provided you remember that. If we have hundred thousands of B.Comms. it does not make them superior to the other better options like M. Coms or MBAs etc. The better options and quality produce definitely has to be scarce even as per nature's rules.

Lastly, a number of CA students and ACCAs are my spirtual sons, since I have been mentoring to them for last 6-7 years, so don't please write (using your prime characteristic of talking without knowledge) about what I am doing and where I hail from.

Another thing to add, the BABAs which you are refering to, are the SPIRTUAL FATHERS of even your spirtual fathers since you are not a farrangee breed as well and no one came from UK to teach you and show you what the world is. So, it would be wise and decent to watch the limits.

Regards,

@ Kamran ACCA

Though I've always agreed with you and this time, really you have crossed the lines. I'll keep my post short and to the point.

1. It is very arrogant of you to say that "you exist because we have given a place to you for such existence". EXCUSE ME, its not because you have given ACCA's the place in charity, its because that you have no choice other than to give them a place. They haven't got their place in charity, its due to their effort, origin belonging to UK, and worldwide recognition. Even Allah doesn't like arrogance and you are being too much arrogant.

2. Secondly, if you know the reality, CA and ACCA students are united in their complains about the attitude of firms. Its not about ACCA's or CA's, its really about the slavery system of firms.

3. There's no denying the fact that CA status was "distributed" among the founders and they started a system based upon severe injustice, slavery and ISTEHSAAL. Don't think that they'd be forgiven. They would get their punishment of Gunah-e-Jaaria they started. That is not an ACCA's views, its the general views of all professional accountancy students including ICAP's.

I hope this clears some matters.

@KamranACA

Thanks man for revealing the top secret of ICAP,"Whenever someone rushes in, appropriate barriers are raised". (in your earlier post it was matter of policy)Its mean ICAP only keep member as low as possible, and it is the main reason of low passing rate. It is hypocricy because on one way ICAP paper passing mark is 50% on the other hand you said that it is barriers.

ACCA and all other institutes has tranperent system they pass on 50% as per policy, not like ICAP which deceiving students.

Aap nay decently word per zor diya hey, again this prove your hypocricy decently mean either you select student on passing marks or as per your policy.. now what will happened these decently selected student, your qualifying rate will never reached to 60% or 70% despite this your institute had very decently selected students, your institute education system is as such cheap that students which they had decently selected can not achieve 50% marks to qualify the exam? surrely no these are in fact good student but your policies is not decent.

Do you think that these BABAs had/have capabilities to teach students? I think these BABAs need training and education and specially in Ethics, social responsiblities in addition to others.

you are the SPIRTUAL FATHERS of CAs and ACCAs, again it show your hypocricy. Please will you tell us that what ACCA stand for? it is stand for Association of Chartered Certified Accountants. but what you explained in ACCA Pakistan forum? I think you will must have courtesy to explain truly.

@ ShahidACCA

You again proved your failure of getting hold to what you are explained. "Whenever someone rushes in, appropriate barriers are raised". I just laughed on the conclusion you derived out of this sentence. Kahaan parhtay rahey ho bhaai? Are you really an ACCA or just use this designation like one of our best examples of ACCAs (moroneflower) who had been using it since 2006 while he passed through in Dec 2008? Or is there some cover of bias on your eyes? Why all the stuff like you takes the things this way. This sentence about "barriers" was merely about the treatment given to ACCA by ICAP before and after 2002. Don’t get wrong meaning from "treatment". I mean it is about the exemptions; and raising barriers or relaxing the requirements is always a matter of policy and depends upon the specific circumstances. It had and has nothing to do with exam policy or 50% marks policy which you have tried to deduce for your own purpose. Is there any problem with you which leads you to mis-interpret the things? Rest assured I will not let you do that, so far I am here and so far I don’t lay you off. If you feel that this changed scenario for exemptions to ACCAs is resulting in reduced membership of ICAP, then let it be. ) We are happy with it. Why are you concerned, specially when you have nothing to do with us? ) This is what I call as crying for the missed train by people like you.

As far as ACCA as a designation is concerned, I have never been against it. I appreciate all those who take their decision, stick with it and don’t shift the burden of their decision on the shoulders of others. No one of you can prove that I am against ACCA; rather, I only criticize and reply the shifting of burden of the decision on our shoulders. Do ACCA, and own whatever good (or even bad) you get out of it. Who I am to say otherwise? But don’t blame us for anything happening against your expectations. Yes, if someone asks me about the merits and demerits of each designation, I will definitely tell him what I know and what I faithfully believe. Why I said, "we have given you a place to exist", is being replied shortly.

Babas are even Babas for us, as they are too senior; but we have fullest regard and respect for them, and for their contribution to the profession and the country. They were capable and have ever produced the capable people as their followers, and this is not something to be certified by the crying stuff like you. This is what the entire world has recognized. You simply are not aware of it due to your handicapped knowledge base. The people like PWC, KMG, Peat Marwick, KPMG, Ernst and Whiney, Ernst and Young, Arthur Anderson, GT, Baker & Tilly, RSM, Praxity etc have ever found these Babas much better than the crying stuff, so you better look towards your forefathers if there is some question in your mind. Do you feel all these bigger names are not aware of what Ethics and Social Responsibility entails? Are you a joker? Owing to your tiny thought, you better watch your "future" than getting curious and concerned about our "history" because in doing so you will face your destined failure of understanding the things properly. This may alleviate your problems and confusions. Again a suggestion and not an advice. How those Babas became ICAP members is what I am gonna reply to ausmanpk, though it has been explained earlier as well, and has found the same result which is specific in case of people like you.

Last paragraph of your latest post is too dubious. You said

…………"Please will you tell us that what ACCA stand for? it is stand for Association of Chartered Certified Accountants. but what you explained in ACCA Pakistan forum?"……..

I don’t at all know this ACCA Pakistan Forum, so let me know what you meant by writing the above lines. ACCA is definitely meant for the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants, and as a designation, for its members, which has also been mentioned by you with your name. What you wanted to say, needs to be explained, if you desire an answer.

Regards,

@ausmanpk

Dear, thanks for expressing of your agreement with my views most of the times except my crossing of the limits that you have pointed out. )

"You exist because we have given a place to you for such existence"....... Well brother, this might have sounded odd but in my view the statement does not carry any arrogance, rather it depicted a situation that can be witnessed and analyzed. A place for existence, means no direct opposition of a localized body when someone new enters in. Historically, foreign qualifications have been opposed by the local bodies of certain countries. However, when ACCA came in Pakistan, it was taken open heartedly by ICAP and it provided the entire platform WITHOUT ANY OPPOSITION AT ANY FORUM and also extended due professional cooperation and mutual recognition. This is on record and ACCA local chapter has no issues with ICAP at all. This is the failure mind of our local crying stuff which raises the issues and calls for such comments and explanations. Had there been any bad intentions at our part, I need not to tell what could have been the repercussions; we can argue but everyone can understand what such scenario could have been.

ACCA contestants, AS A RESULT OF CIRCUMSTANCES AND STRUCTURE, were/are dependent upon CAs in Pakistan e.g

-in studies; since real majority of renowned and reliable teachers are ICAP members and in absolute majority of cases the tuition provider institutions are established by ICAP people;

- in training; as none of ACCA firm is there to train, or in jobs as in almost all cases they are even interviewed and recruited by CAs;

-in professional life; since they have to be reportable to CAs in an absolute majority of cases.

Everywhere they face the locally qualified accountants and still get a place. Do you think, this could have been possible, if there had been any enmity or opposition? Certainly not! So, this is the place which you have always been given to exist and flourish. Go to all the CA firms of which you always complain and check how many ACCAs are absorbed by them. Does it happen if we carry biases?

Therefore, my statement is not arrogant, rather speaks some facts which cannot be denied by doing whatever efforts.

As far as slavery system of the firms is concerned, it has been discussed many a times and I never agreed to it, EVEN WHEN I WAS A STUDENT/TRAINEE. This is only a mentality and a way to think differently. It is also not a question being debated on this forum. If this is a slavery then every training in Pakistan is a slavery be it a medical house job, engineering's practical training, or army's training or whatever. Needed is to think positively and be an instrumental part of the process. Time pays back to hard workers and pays back very well; and this is what these trainings are meant for. However, I agree that on the front of facilities, we in Pakistan, cannot compare the circumstances or payment schedules of Europe or USA and this is not specific for our profession only. We don't find here quality public transport, people of commitment in governance, utility providers and service providers. Despite paying huge direct and indirect taxes, we are not given appropriate security, safety, law and order, greenery, cleanliness, education, health facilities so forth and so on. These are our circumstances and we need a lot to improve them. However, every profession has its own demand and a need of sacrifices and calling them as slavery is incorrect. What would you be feeling about a House JOb on-call doctor who works the entire Eid days and nights in hospital for serving the people like us, merely on the stipend of a few thousand rupees. He is not doing slavery, rather is making his future and paying what his profession demands. What would you say about SSG cadet who is not given a leave even to participate any sort of Khushi-Ghami of his loved ones and who is paid a short stipend during such hard days? What would you say about a Navy Jawan/cadet who comes to the Pakistani port after 3 months and is asked to be a part of another cruise for another term of 2 months merely after 6 hours. I have seen these examples and I know to get something you have to lose something. We need to understand it or change our choice of profession if the hard feelings are on such a level. No one can become a consultant doctor without passing through such phase; no one can place stars on his shoulders without facing these hardships and no one can become a professional accountant without putting in what our profession and circumstances require.

Now I come to your last point regarding distribution of CA designations which is quite strange and unexpected from a person like you. Do you know who were those to whom so-called distribution was made? Can you give me the names or at least number? Do you know what qualifications they possessed at the time when they were recognized as members? Do you know how accounting/auditing profession was governed and regulated in Pakistan before ICAP’s coming into existence? Do you know which exams were taken before introducing CA in Pakistan by the Federal Government? Do you know what basis was made to give them the membership? Do you know what they were doing even before getting recognized by ICAP? Do you know how professional institutes were established worldwide historically?

You need to know this all and understand the issue through a thoughtful research before raising a baseless allegation. If you know the answer to all these questions, revert to me for a debate, otherwise try to find the answers to the above questions and your allegation will cease to exist.

I am here to answer the purposeful questions.

Regards

Hello, Namastey, Salam Friends...

I m an ACCA AFFILIATE, qualified in dec 2010.
Nowadays i m in audit firm, n i have registered myself for CA.
my attempt for ca-e module will be in June 2013.
but before that (n together with articleship) i want to do CIA,
its better to utilize this tym. before registering myself for cia
i want to get ur frndly suggestions.. Kindly Help me.. i m lil bit
confused.

@kamranACA

ok, will your clearly explain the passing criteria of ICAP papers? if it is 50% then change the criteria for decently selected students why because it failed to select quality student who can not pass your exam and it just restrict hardly to 15% to 20% qualifying the final exam on time

As far as quouting "moroneflower" he may be the ICAP student, because in most cases only the ICAP students have qualification complex all other professional institute students pass their exams on time.

now come to your last point about the ACCA,

www.pakistanacca.com "ACCA knocks out ICAEW". you give comments on july 13, 2010 (According to me ACCA should be calls as “Association of Certified Clerk Association”. No offence intended but in Pakistan Clerk earns more than fresh ACCA finalist)
here is the link www.pakistanacca.com/2010/07/07/acca-knocks-out-icaew/
you have mentioned the big firms name check the profile their partners mostly will be ICAEW member, ICAP has just stamped on it by giving membership for practising purpose... I dont know why you feel shame by using the local name of yours firm like taseer hadi khalid, yousaf adil saleem, sidat hyder etc. it also show the your complex.