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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by VITAL</i>
<br />Arsenal I donot make this topic to discuss what you called the future of ACCA in this forum. The CA students are never interested in the extent of exemptions granted or will be granted to ACCA students. I am not interested in the ICAP policy regarding this whether past or future. We simply want improvements in our study material and simply want new developments in CA profession to meet the demands of what is happening around the world and will be happened. To achieve this we should follow relevent techniques of ICAEW (copy is not the right word) because ICAEW is the benchmark not only for ICAP but also for ACCA.Yes Kamran Bhai is right we are not behind. our examination policy is ok. problem lies in study material sorts of things.
I am waiting for something new that is beneficial for CA not the new affecting ACCA.
But unfortunately CA students turned mute spectators and I found myself in needless discussion with ACCAs. So plz donât start CA vs ACCA debate. Your ideas regarding the new developments will be welcomed.
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okay i believe that my statements above have given rise to some misconceptions.
my personal view is
1. Pakistani CAs are better than ACCAs
2. Pakistani CAs go through a much difficult and stringent training process and exams which menas that they are very well prepared by the time they qualify
3. any person who becomes a Pak CA deserves every bit credit for proving to be a great and successful individual
4. ACCA is for those people (including me) who are of a lower level and were either unable to pass CA exams or did not have the guts to enter into the CA program.
therefore, it is my request to every forum member that whatever i say or have ever said must be weighed in context to my above statements.
As far as the topic is concerned, i think it is high time ICAP reorganizes its structure and it will be great for Pakistani CAs.
Rgds,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by VITAL</i>
<br />Arsenal I donot make this topic to discuss what you called the future of ACCA in this forum. The CA students are never interested in the extent of exemptions granted or will be granted to ACCA students. I am not interested in the ICAP policy regarding this whether past or future. We simply want improvements in our study material and simply want new developments in CA profession to meet the demands of what is happening around the world and will be happened. To achieve this we should follow relevent techniques of ICAEW (copy is not the right word) because ICAEW is the benchmark not only for ICAP but also for ACCA.Yes Kamran Bhai is right we are not behind. our examination policy is ok. problem lies in study material sorts of things.
I am waiting for something new that is beneficial for CA not the new affecting ACCA.
But unfortunately CA students turned mute spectators and I found myself in needless discussion with ACCAs. So plz donât start CA vs ACCA debate. Your ideas regarding the new developments will be welcomed.
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Vital CA/ACCA debate to fazol hai.
But as u r saying that "ICAEW is a benchmark" might be acceptable for us Pakistanis but few others don't believe it.For example India.ICAEW award maximam 14 papers(just case staudy required to be passed) exemptions to Indian CAs while ICA-INDIA require full ICAEW members to pass full Final stage i.e 4 papers.Agar dekha jai to ICAEW -ICA(INDIA) k MOU k taht to ICAEW jhuka hai.In 2007/08 ICAEW launched its program in India.ICA-INDIA went to court and halted ICAEW program in INDIA.Then ICAEW negotiated, signed a less favourable MOU, and then re-entered INDIA.It was because India is a big market.In 2008 ICAEW had only 9000 students pursuing their CA worldwide and they r struggling to lure new candidates in greater number.Its current membership is about 132000.The main sourse of INCOME for an accounting body is its students.In India about 120000 students r pursuing CA so it is a big market which ICAEW eyed.So bottom line is k ICA-INDIA nay apne ongoing curriculum say hi ICAEW key sath equal level(even better level) peh MOU kia.They didn't percieved it as a benchmark.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
Buddies
There is no question of CA/ACCA debate on this thread and if it is started in that fashion it would again lead to same conclusions which have been reached far back in history with no significant change.
One point for Arsalan; buddy the thing which you don't understand or is disliked by you does not necessarily mean to be meaningless. Certainly it could have carried lots of meaning for others.
My point about tightening of ACCA position meant that if CA in Pak improves its syllabus structure and makes available relevant study material and learning tools, as people have been pointing out (my concurrence with slight reservation on it) then the general opinion about its stiffness would come to an end. Some of the people who currently are rushing to ACCA just for its easy to pass structure would definitely be revisiting their decision in coming days specially the majority of them would have seen the outcome of their effort after consuming 3-4 years by then.
On the contrary, ACCAs might have established a very good market by then (or vice versa), so, market demand or acceptability is not being discussed. Nothing in that measure is being compared. This thread is meant for discussing reforms in CA syllabus, entry of students and post reforms scenario etc. People claim that currently majority is opting ACCA considering CA a difficult venture (as said by VITAL). I said this position would be changed and this would tighten ACCA position i.e. its entry rate. Nothing is discussed as to what is better and what is not. Just a clarification.
By the way there is a presumed difference between "ACCA" and "ACCAs". You see I wrote "ACCA" and not "ACCAs" in my earlier post.
Anyway, opinions can differ largely and I am not intended to debate on it.
Shani and Vital,
There is nothing wrong in developing our own syllabus and/or adopting cent percent some international body's syllabus since both things have to address same underlying core material i.e. IFRSs, ISAs and similar pronouncements.
We are already very much on to it and you might not be knowing that in Pakistan except for IFRS-1 we are fully compliant to all other IFRSs and related interpretations, and this is the only country in the whole region that is compliant to such an extent. In ISAs, we are one of a few countries in the region that have adopted entire ISAs issued so far. The recently clarified/reformatted set of already adopted ISAs is also under discussion and would hopefully be notified shortly.
So Pakistan and its professionals are not behind any one when latest pronouncements and upfront adoption of such pronouncements comes under question.
As I said any of the approach (developing own Syllabus or adopting some well recognized syllabus) is fine; we know it; but might others not be knowing it in same depth or might they not be willing to know, specially because we have a low voice when number game comes into play. So, the later one will make it easy for others in the world to readily understand what we are doing and what we are teaching to our students. We will not be required to prove any point and nobody would be arguing on it. That's why I said it would be beneficial for students in future. Hikmat ke baat kahin say bhi mil jaaey usko lenay main kia problem hai?
At the same time we would not be losers at all since the adapted syllabus would be fully compliant to IFAC pronouncements; and for local legislation we will be following our own contents.
I discussed a reservation to something in earlier paragraphs. I feel reservation on the statement that it is ICAP's policies that create hardship for students to qualify. Brothers, it is not the case at all. Majority does not get merit to be admitted to engineering and medical as well; is it some issue of policies there as well? Majority does not qualify ISSB tests; what you will about it? In all contests majority does not gets through. So, I believe nothing can be measured by looking at the number of failures or the people who struggle for longer runs. In Pakistan even the passing rate for Matric is almost 40-45 percent (check various Board results for SSC and HSC). If you come to graduation level it would I guess be around 25-35 percent. Data needs to be checked. Yes, there is a valid point for shortage of exact relevant study material but it has nothing to do with examination policy. I personally feel that studying more than one book and exploring the ideas of many writers adds value and creates a difference among professionals, yet I agree this consumes much effort and could be a factor of difficulty. I hope these problems will also be getting resolved as a result of current reforms. However, whoever works hard gets qualified and there is no ambiguity in it. This is true for all fields of life. Rest assured.
Let's see how these all issues are addressed and how the expectations of students are met. I have learnt to remain positive for the future and I believe this always helps.
Regards,
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Kamran bhai u r nearly FCA(Maybe abtak ban bhi gai hon).Aap acha curricular material likhain.Bachon ka fayeda hoga.
Waisay ICAP have many members who r foreign qualified(Even Mr. Maqbool is a member of both CICA and ICAEW).Even some politicians such as Salman Taseer and Ishaq Dar r ICAEW members.Politician say to tawako nahin per practising member ko world class curriculum khud tyar kerna chaye.
Hey....Vital....it wouldnt hurt to know
I think I was wrong when I said that ICAEW is not that type of institute which gives exemptions on the basis of power of bargaining.
Let me clear what I am demanding from ICAP. I do not want ICAP to become ICAEW duplicate. We are not far behind. Majority of ICAP members are working abroad. In CFO conference Siemens CFO ( he is not Pakistani citizen ) appreciated Pakistani CAs for their financial IQ. But it does not mean that there is no need to move forward. There is always a room for improvement.
Now what are the areas which require improvement
let me explain with an example In D-module IT paper 60 marks are of theory paper.
For those 60 marks ICAP recommended 4 books of foreign authors, 3 books constitute supplementary material. These foreign author books are not exclusively written for accountancy profession.
Can ICAP not produce a single high quality IT book which is exactly in accordance with the needs of CA profession? The answer is no. because ICAP members are busy and they do not like to engage IT professional to produce such book.
Now the meaning of and working of MIS is the same whether here or in England.
There are same concepts of IT security and IT controls. If ICAP adopt ICAEW study material and keep its syllabus compatible with that of ICAEW it will bring some benefits for humans who will be prevented from those foreign author books and they will keep their focus on just one or two high quality books exclusively written for accountancy profession. Same is the case with other subjects.
In the E-learning section of ICAP website there is a presentation regarding E-module advanced accounting and financial reporting paper in which the ICAP presenter recommend ACCA books especially for consolidation. The consolidation methodologies are the same whether in CA or ACCA and CA students are using ( adopting I should say) the KAPLAN or BPP books. These books are not officially recommended by ICAP. But the students are using. They have no other options. If this is so it should be taken as ICAP is adopting ACCA curriculum. Even ACCA books are used in F module. This is the reason ACCA students are ânarazâ with ICAP.
By using or adopting ICAEW study material and equate CA syllabus according to that is not equivalent to surrendering ICAP curriculum. At least students get world class material. ICAP cannot develop that type of material in-house. But ICAEW has developed that. ICAP published GRIPPING IFRS volume II written by South African CA.
GRIPPING IFRS books are only high quality books published by ICAP but not written by its members.
Up till few years back ICAP is of firm belief that to produce scholars students should study many many books so that they develop a wider perspective of looking at things. Use of ACCA books by CA students proves them wrong. Now the president of ICAP says in the Pakistan Accountantâ president page that developing high quality study material is receiving our close attention. Let see what will happen.
But there will be something new.
May be you perceive differently. Even many people still use the word âcopyâ.
Whether ICAP copy or paste ICAEW I want âBAHLAâ for ICAP CA students no matter how it materializes.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by VITAL</i>
<br />I think I was wrong when I said that ICAEW is not that type of institute which gives exemptions on the basis of power of bargaining.
Let me clear what I am demanding from ICAP. I do not want ICAP to become ICAEW duplicate. We are not far behind. Majority of ICAP members are working abroad. In CFO conference Siemens CFO ( he is not Pakistani citizen ) appreciated Pakistani CAs for their financial IQ. But it does not mean that there is no need to move forward. There is always a room for improvement.
Now what are the areas which require improvement
let me explain with an example In D-module IT paper 60 marks are of theory paper.
For those 60 marks ICAP recommended 4 books of foreign authors, 3 books constitute supplementary material. These foreign author books are not exclusively written for accountancy profession.
Can ICAP not produce a single high quality IT book which is exactly in accordance with the needs of CA profession? The answer is no. because ICAP members are busy and they do not like to engage IT professional to produce such book.
Now the meaning of and working of MIS is the same whether here or in England.
There are same concepts of IT security and IT controls. If ICAP adopt ICAEW study material and keep its syllabus compatible with that of ICAEW it will bring some benefits for humans who will be prevented from those foreign author books and they will keep their focus on just one or two high quality books exclusively written for accountancy profession. Same is the case with other subjects.
In the E-learning section of ICAP website there is a presentation regarding E-module advanced accounting and financial reporting paper in which the ICAP presenter recommend ACCA books especially for consolidation. The consolidation methodologies are the same whether in CA or ACCA and CA students are using ( adopting I should say) the KAPLAN or BPP books. These books are not officially recommended by ICAP. But the students are using. They have no other options. If this is so it should be taken as ICAP is adopting ACCA curriculum. Even ACCA books are used in F module. This is the reason ACCA students are ânarazâ with ICAP.
By using or adopting ICAEW study material and equate CA syllabus according to that is not equivalent to surrendering ICAP curriculum. At least students get world class material. ICAP cannot develop that type of material in-house. But ICAEW has developed that. ICAP published GRIPPING IFRS volume II written by South African CA.
GRIPPING IFRS books are only high quality books published by ICAP but not written by its members.
Up till few years back ICAP is of firm belief that to produce scholars students should study many many books so that they develop a wider perspective of looking at things. Use of ACCA books by CA students proves them wrong. Now the president of ICAP says in the Pakistan Accountantâ president page that developing high quality study material is receiving our close attention. Let see what will happen.
But there will be something new.
May be you perceive differently. Even many people still use the word âcopyâ.
Whether ICAP copy or paste ICAEW I want âBAHLAâ for ICAP CA students no matter how it materializes.
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Vital ICAEW aur ACCA dono k curriculum main IT ka single specialized paper nahin hai.Various papers main thori bahut IT dal di gai hai.
ACCA doesn't prepare its books , rather BPP and Kaplan do it.ICAP can hire some specialized organization to prepare books.
Baherhal Best of luck for ur CA Vital.
Shani
The debate that which curricular and books should be followed is not making a point because purpose is to benefit the students and provide them fullest validly available resources. In IFRS compliant countries there is no major difference in basics, so either you develop or you get it developed, it makes no difference.
I also feel when a prototype comes under question ICAEW is the bestest in its quality. What MOU with India is, we don't care because that entirely is the outcome of number game. Here we cannot solely for this reason prefer India over ICAEW. I beleive you are sensible enough to differentiate what is polictics and what is quality.
I agree with your point about getting the material developed from Kaplan or BPP etc. As far as curriculum's structure is concerned it is not going to be a bigger deviation. Simply students will be benefited by an approach that has been proved internationally.
I tend to avoid personalized discussion and I wish you to avoid it as well.
Regards,
Kamran bhai I hope whatever ICAP decides, will prove helpful for its students.I will avoid personalized comments.
Regards
I think I was too much inclined towards ICAEW. I should have limited my discussion to the production of high quality study material by ICAP.
Yes ICAP should either undertake in-house development of study material or engage a company which has vast experience of publishing books relating to professional accountancy.
We should now move on and explore other aspects of the something new.
Kamran Bhai what will be your opinion if ICAP introduces a new subject that tests the professional competencies of students relating to what they have learnt from all their previous studies and relating to what they will be expected to do in the future? and do you think that there should be such subject?
CIMA has that type of subject and ICAEW has an integration module and in that module there are three papers.
Second, keeping in view that CFO conferences laid strong emphasis on the future role of CFOs relating to risk management and keeping in view that significant number of ICAP members are in corporate business sector (more than 80% if I am not wrong) and surely all of them do not engage in financial reporting and internal auditing, there must be ICAP members that are involved in financial analysis/risk management. Kamran Bhai do you feel that a newly qualified CA competes with a newly qualified CFA to get the job/post relating to above mentioned discipline?
And may be because of this do you think that ICAP is thinking to introduce a new subject relating to Financial Engineering and Risk Management and limit the scope of BFD paper to just corporate finance?
Professional opinions and views of others are welcomed.
Module E and F, I believe are specializing modules. Up to module E, you find majority of things consummating your earlier studies from module A to D thereby consolidating, maturing, polishing and upgrading the knowledge on core areas.
In F, again some papers consolidate and improve the previous knowledge. However, there is a need to break down the specialized subject of BFD in the earlier modules to make out a base for the advanced level study. This can be achieved by improving the syllabus contents of math and statistics paper or by introducing a corporate finance paper in some earlier modules as well.
Personally I feel no requirement to introduce the paper for previous knowledge as E and F are nothing but an advanced stage learning and testing of previous knowledge. Yet, if Institute feels like introducing it, I will not contradict.
As far as risk management is considered, it is again a specialized subject and there is no harm in introducing a new paper or papers on this subject. Yet, risk management process in financial/capital market sectors is largely different from the risk management you expect to do in other sectors. Current paper of BFD covers this subject but not in too depth as you can expect from a CFA. Similar is situation in ICAEW, ACCA, CIMA, ICAA, CICA or whatever. We must not forget that CA is a bit different specialization than CFA.
I think somewhat restructuring is required but not to see or expect the CAs altogether in a different backdrop.
Regards,
Dear Kamran Bhai,
I personally feel that many ICAP members are not in favor of taking up of ICAEW system
Is my feeling right?
And what is your personal opinion about the taking up of ICAEW system?
You frequently say that CA is known for its hard-to-pass structure and hard situations type of things.
I also believe that the charm of CA lies in its toughness.
Donât you think that option of taking up of ICAEW system will bring some ease with it and pull more students towards CA and with the abolishment of bad failure there will be sudden increase in members, more than that our economy support it?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by VITAL</i>
<br /><b>If you want other people to do a good job give them a good job to do</b>
In the e-learning section of ICAP website there is a presentation on the topic "approaching business management paper". A extract from this website is as follows;
Pass Rate
CIMA Business Strategy 50%
ACCA Strategic Business Planning and Development 50%
ICAEW Business Management 80%
ICAP Business Management 15 -20%
After viewing this presentation I thought why CA students are displaying such poor performance. What are the reasons of their poor performance?
The fact is that this is not the case with one subject. In CA it starts to happen from B module and continues until the completion of F module and after facing all these hardships we proudly say CA is the toughest one. Even some students and beginners say that it is near to impossible to become CA. It is not the nature of CA that makes it difficult. It is the .... policies of ICAP that make it difficult. The subjects in our field are far less complex as compared to medical field. In medical field there are heavy medical terminologies and post-mortem or operation sorts of things. A field full of blood. This is not case with CA. During training we conduct audit etc. We learn by doing and get stipend in return. However there are certain issues that the trainee students are facing which I am not discussing here.
Then the question is that what are the policies that ICAP pursues that make our life difficult and give us a lot of stress to cope with? These policies centers around our syllabus, papers and study material.
Look at this forum CA students are confused about the choice of books. They repeatedly ask about which books to read. Even E module student is consulting about books. ICAP has recommended enough books for every subject but CA students are still searching. They are searching for book that is of high quality ( not quality of PBP ) ,the contents of which are exactly in accordance with syllabus and that they have surety that they can respond to exam questions on the basis of what they have learnt and practiced but they find nothing that they are searching about. The result is that a CA student is always centered around by many books on each subject. These foreign authors' books are not in compatible with our syllabus. There are some questions in papers the solutions of which we only find in ICAP solutions.
To become qualified a CA student puts in an enormous amount of effort and spends a lot of time during that period. In contrast ACCA students are blessed with high quality study materials which exactly match their needs. No doubt they have to study and learn very well to qualify but they have not to bear extra unnecessary effort. The result is that they qualify in 2-2.5 years and we, CA students, again proudly say CA is toughest because of reasons you know.
If ICAP had well-refined syllabus and study material that exactly match our needs we would have avoided unnecessary effort and stress and saved a lot of time. It is so painful to go through the years of CA education. A field full of tears.
Now the time has come where change is inevitable. ICAP should equate its own syllabus with that of ICAEW and adopt their study material and even some exam and training policies as necessary. This will give PAK CA the credit he deserves. This will enhance the international recognition of ICAP and its qualification. If this will happen the CA student will put his input effort in the right direction and make the best use of his ability and enjoy the world-wide recognition.
So ICAP uncles should hurry up, develop high quality study material ( gripping IFRS is the first one) and frame the new policy that brings benefits for all those connected to ICAP instead of giving discounts.
If ICAP wants CA students to show good performance then ICAP should give them high quality study material to learn
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very very well said, i totally agree with you. i have faced the same problems uptil now.
Vital
It's not about following the entire ICAEW system altogether. Rather, it is about transforimg our syllabus to meet its contents with such an international body; and breaking down of such contents into various modules on the lines of what ICAEW is doing. It's not about examination procedures, exam policies, and setting of papers for our students. This all has to be done locally. I personally feel no harm in doing so.
Further, the suggestion of getting the study materials (as per new syllabus contents) from some renowned developer like Kaplan is also worth noting. Any such developer would be at ease and more vibrant and effective while developing the study material as per the contents followed by world's largets bodies like ICAEW, ICAA and CICA in qualitative terms.
So the benefit would be threefold-
Firstly, syllabus would be totally in line with any other international body (as CICA and ICAA also rate ICAEW equal to them) and this will enhance Pakistani qualification's understanding and acceptability internationally; not only on jobs and skills front but also when you will put your case for MRAs with these bodies. {I agree with you that such MOUs with ICAEW, CICA and ICAA are sufficient for Pakistani CAs}.
Secondly, developers of study material can produce far focused and standardized things for your students. {We can develop syllabus and material for localized subjects locally as well}.
Thirdly, this will put us shoulder to shoulder with those who are talking about a globalized qualification of accountancy (that will follow IFAC's pronouncements) having similar worth all over the globe. A dream to be achieved at some point of time.
I guess, if we will do this, students' flow will increase not for easeness but for the expected benefits and standardization of study materials and syllabus contents providing improved equal opportunities thereby reducing their grouses about these matters.
As far as market situation is concerned; I don't feel there would be any bigger imbalance. We are not going to adopt examination system of ICAEW. The fittest will have to survive on the yardstick/criterion our policies will establish.
Regards,
Dear Kamran Bhai,
Would you like to give me an idea when this change will be implemented?
You said that so much will be achieved during the tenure of this council.
So also tell about the tenure of this council.
I think AGM and presidentâs election sorts of things are going to take place in just two months.
Regards,
Vital
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