Accountancy Forum - Something New Is Coming In CA

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aamalik

If this happens, the disparity among professionals will enhance and majority would not be able to part with the after effects. I have already discussed the expected after effects.

At the moment there is a factual disparity among the big 4 professionals, others in top ten or top 20 and the remaining firms mostly caused by concentration of quality clientele/business in the hands of top 20 firms, specially at big 4.

From disparity I mean the varying level of acceptability in market.

Non-disclosure of marks/grades is a blessing for majority, remember my words. If this happens, employers will top up the "disparity" by fixing certain percenatge of marks as a minimum as well (say 70-80 percent), curtailing down the positivity attached with this process. Must not forget that passing marks are only 5o percent and non-disclosure really creates equal competition, acceptability, grace and equal opportunities.

Although I have qualified way back, but would always oppose this change, if it comes my way for discussion.

Regards,

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 aamalik

If this happens, the disparity among professionals will enhance and majority would not be able to part with the after effects. I have already discussed the expected after effects.

At the moment there is a factual disparity among the big 4 professionals, others in top ten or top 20 and the remaining firms mostly caused by concentration of quality clientele/business in the hands of top 20 firms, specially at big 4.

From disparity I mean the varying level of acceptability in market.

Non-disclosure of marks/grades is a blessing for majority, remember my words. If this happens, employers will top up the "disparity" by fixing certain percenatge of marks as a minimum as well (say 70-80 percent), curtailing down the positivity attached with this process. Must not forget that passing marks are only 5o percent and non-disclosure really creates equal competition, acceptability, grace and equal opportunities.

Although I have qualified way back, but would always oppose this change, if it comes my way for discussion.

Regards,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

AoA Kamran Bhai,

I absolutely agree with what you said as it would open yet another front to classify CAs which I, personally, may not wish...

But do not you think this veil will have to be shed... All other professionals accept this as a legitimate segregation that 'top' performers deserve...

Notwithstanding the fact that disclosure or nondisclosure they will be up the pyramid, always...

Anyway, Kamran Bhai, what do u think are chances of this happening? and along with which firm one interns from, Isn't number of attempts another measure that employers use as judgement tool, or not really?

The objective of ICAP is to produce top professionals, not to draw a line between the qualities of its professionals.
I donât think ICAP will disclose marks in future.

The line drawn by Big4 is another thing which is not wholly under the control of ICAP.

In B.com and M.com marks are of huge significance because of huge number of degree holders. It becomes necessary to differentiate top ones from ordinary ones.

This is not case in CA where it is hard to pass each and every paper, and there are small numbers of qualifying students.

Marks are disclosed where there is a need to disclose. There is no such need in CA.

Non-disclosure of marks is a good policy (as pointed out by Kamran Bhai) and should be continued.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aamalik
 
But do not you think this veil will have to be shed... All other professionals accept this as a legitimate segregation that 'top' performers deserve...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are always meritorious students in every qualification who deserve to be differentiated from the rest.
For those special bright students ICAP awards gold medals and certificates of merit. They are few in numbers and do not become causing agent of any disparity.

I do not think ICAP will frame and pursue âdisclosureâ policy.

Kamran Bhai

What are your views on Training in Industry?

aamalik

I guess VITAL has given a very relevant and open clarification.

ICAP does not appear to intend differentiating between those who get 50% from the ones who are between 70% to 80% since such differentiation is not required. Of course extra ordinary people are awarded and Vital is rightly saying that such awards do not change market preferences at large.

When I entered this field, I heard a commonly used sentence "QUALIFICATION IS NEVER LATE". So, I witnessed a number of examples where this came true. On the contrary I could not see even ONE example where some one however late qualified was turned down for this reason.

The secret for the job of freshly qualified is, people feel, the one who qualified late is definitely more mature, experienced and trained than a 24 years qualified CA; and believe you me when we talk about job responsibilities this is always true. However, it does not mean that a young fellow is not upto the mark. Obviosly he has his own merits in comparison.

As far as job evaluation criteria for senior people is concerned, they watch it with reference to candidates' relevant exposure in similar positions. None of them even bothers to see the copies of your exam certificates. Those are required only for HR records. At such later stages, even the name of your mother firm does not remain your tag because so amny other tags are attached to your personalty by such time.

Hope you will understand.

Whether or not ICAP will change policy to disclose marks cannot be replied by me. Every where humans are working and a human is not free of errors or conceptual differences. However, if such a change will ever be discussed, there would be a majority to reject such a move. My guess!

Regards,

Vital

This subject has been discussed at length on other threads and I have always been quite categorical in giving my remarks on such a thought.

The people in our industry their-self are always dependent on firms for professional work and assistance be it whatever top notch local or multinational. How can they train CA students? After-all what would we be achieving by doing this? Have you visited our industry and seen their accounts departments? CA students are not supposed to be trained ONLY for one sector say, textile sector, or sugar or banking or consumer products or construction/engineering etc. They need to see the world, so that they learn how to fit-in in a given system. If we will ask them to sit in an engineering company for 3 years, they will not even be 20% of the normal CA trainee student trained by a quality firm. Further, still there are very big questions on such an anticipated arrangement; how industry's training will be monitored?, what is the industry's interest in intaking such trainees?, how industry will be forced to follow Training Regulations?, would a mentor at industry take similar responsibilities and pain?, if yes, then what would be his interest in doing so?, what would be the solution if some mentor in industry and his boss or board or other directives do not agree on a particualer thing? etc etc.

We just forget that all ICAEW, CIMA and ACCA students can join industry for training even at this moment, then what is the outcome of such possibility? How many got training placements, active interested mentors, proper rotation to learn work on all facets, and eventually a well structured training? How many?

For imparting training you need an environment that is focused on training and not merely on routine working. Training needs A CONTINUOUS PROCESS OF delegation, supervision and review; a process of very close guidance, monitoring and continuous correction. It requires emerging new challenges, new opportunities, diversification, and accomplishments.

I wonder if industry can provide even an environment to train a person at the level that is expected for CA in Pakistan.

Regards

Dear Kamran Bhai,

I learnt a lot from your post. I completely understand your views. But the fact is ICAP is expressing its intention to introduce it.

My personal view (as I said before) is that ICAP will not waive the requirement of training in CA firms. All students will have to go through training in Audit firm. If there were only three years industrial training, I do not think those trainee students deserve to be called prospective chartered accountants.

You are right in saying that a student gets nothing special if he will sit in an engineering company for 3 years to do routine work.

Former President Asad Ali Shah in his Presidentâs Communication dated September 14, 2009 said

âCurrently students are allowed to train only with a firm of chartered accountants that has been designated as Training Organization (TO) by ICAP. Now the Council has decided that specified organizations other than CA firms will be approved by the Institute as Training Organizations. This step would align our policy with the worldwide practice of student training.
However, as several members had expressed concern on the implementation of this decision and the relevant by-laws, the council decided to hold further deliberations with the members through round table conferences, and consequently, the implementation of this decision has been deferred.â

So the concerns expressed by several members must be the same as expressed by you.
These are well-justified concerns.

But there must be a way out. I mean number of CA-inter students are increasing and there are wandering here and there to get training contract. Firms are not recruiting because they cannot afford their stipend. ICAP has to think about them.

ICAP has to create training opportunities. For example, at least two years in a firm and one year in a company. ICAP members in industry have to follow ICAP directions and training regulations in the same manner as followed by members in practice.

Vital

Asad Ali looked to have some charisma of introducing such a change; the resrevations of members were quite similar to what I carry and I remember the detailed e-mail I sent dissenting this move as a member.

ICAP was on a road and is probably still considering this change but cannot do so until members at large do not consent for it.

People who know inside out are not in its favor; not for any of their benefit, rather for the sake of profession.

As far as increase in CA Intermediate is concerned, still there is no uncontrolled increase; yes the people who don't get through within a logical frame of time do have to face difficulties and it is natural. They will face similar difficulties even if industry move is implemented. Certainly there will be a race for multinational, big brands and no one will go for local medium/small scaled companies. And in any race survival is only for the better ones.

You just didnt pick my point where I raised the question of non-exploring of industry opportunity by ACCA and CIMA etc. Here we witnessed a very sharp chap Odyssee, an ACCA affiliate. He contacted a renowned oil refinery company for his ICAEW training placement. The HR department in response asked Odyssee, "what is this ICAEW"? They did not even know they were authorized to train under ICAEW's ACA program. So, this is the matter of preference and I wonder if industry can ever make out such a preference or create even an evnvironment for such a training program.

So, in my eyes, this appears to be merely an illusion. At least for next 5-10 years. This can happen; but for doing so very big changes will have to be made, and to my understanding we are not currently geared to make it happen.

Regards,

Good news

I got E-Mails from ICAP at last. In the first e-mail I asked them about the training in industry and in second one I asked them about the date of implementation of new policy.
The replies are as follows

First one

Dear Student

There is no such plan at the moment to introduce industrial training and another module.

Regards

Shumaila Halo, ACA
Senior Manager - CPD & Education
â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦.

Second one

Dear Student

This refers to your email addressed to the President on above subject.

The matter of education and examination reforms is of great importance and is taking its due time for finalization at each level. We are trying to keep our members and students informed about the progress through newsletters. We hope that we will be able to share some decision very soon.

Regards

Omair Jamal
Director Education and Training

From these e-mails it is absolutely clear that there will be no industrial training and G-module.

But there is still a mystery to solve.

Even though ICAP has ruled out the possibility of another module it does not mean that there will be no new subjects. For example, if ICAP abolishes A moduleâs English and QM and converts B into A, C into B and so on then there will be effectively new module for those who have cleared A module. I am still quite sure that some subjects are going to split into two.

ICAP is saying that the matter of education and examination reforms is of great importance and is taking its due time for finalization at each level.
It clearly means that something special is going to happen between A and F modules for CA students.

Another mystery to solve

An extract from Draft Minutes of AGM 2010

âThe Chairman replied that we have plans to make significant changes relating to education and examination which include development of study packs for students. The Vice President explained that the Examination Committee has come up with lot of recommendations in the last meeting of the Council. The Council has in principle agreed with most of the recommendations. These recommendations are approved by the Council in principle to improve the results without compromising on the quality. The Institute will announce the reforms in education and examination shortly.â

If we look at second email above the Director Education and Training is also talking about examination reforms.

now what are these examination reforms?

I tried to get the details regarding new subjects but ICAP officials are reluctant to share any information. From different communications of ICAP, it looks like ICAP has done everything. Just an announcement is needed.

Here is an email

Dear Student
The information can only be disseminated once a decision on the implementation is taken. I donât believe in circulating half baked information to confuse the students.

Regards

Shumaila Halo, ACA
Senior Manager - CPD & Education
â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦

I donât think I will get confused.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
aamalik

I guess VITAL has given a very relevant and open clarification.

ICAP does not appear to intend differentiating between those who get 50% from the ones who are between 70% to 80% since such differentiation is not required. Of course extra ordinary people are awarded and Vital is rightly saying that such awards do not change market preferences at large.

When I entered this field, I heard a commonly used sentence "QUALIFICATION IS NEVER LATE". So, I witnessed a number of examples where this came true. On the contrary I could not see even ONE example where some one however late qualified was turned down for this reason.

The secret for the job of freshly qualified is, people feel, the one who qualified late is definitely more mature, experienced and trained than a 24 years qualified CA; and believe you me when we talk about job responsibilities this is always true. However, it does not mean that a young fellow is not upto the mark. Obviosly he has his own merits in comparison.

As far as job evaluation criteria for senior people is concerned, they watch it with reference to candidates' relevant exposure in similar positions. None of them even bothers to see the copies of your exam certificates. Those are required only for HR records. At such later stages, even the name of your mother firm does not remain your tag because so amny other tags are attached to your personalty by such time.

Hope you will understand.

Whether or not ICAP will change policy to disclose marks cannot be replied by me. Every where humans are working and a human is not free of errors or conceptual differences. However, if such a change will ever be discussed, there would be a majority to reject such a move. My guess!

Regards,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Completely understood with gratitude, Kamran Bhai...

Vital

Without any prejudice, I feel this concept will not find any major success.

Regards,

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