Accountancy Forum

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by cowsgonemadd</i>
<br /> i hope they dont start disclosing marks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But I am hoping otherwise.

ICAP is making me furious. They created expectations by saying that new reforms will be announced soon but it did not happen in that way. ICAP always takes long time.

Read the following extract from Council report 2008 (part of annual report 2008) to judge it for yourself


"The Board of Studies is constantly striving to provide quality study material to students and in this context our future goals are to publish and distribute high quality study material, books and revision kits for every Module of the CA examinations."

Future goals are still future goals.

Note The word "this" is deleted.

bhai meray...what do u mean by 'this icap'?

icap has always been like this.....it was 14 september..in which the icap president said...'in a matter of days the paper work and formailities will be completed for implementing new exam policies...(elimination of referral system)...and then it was not completed for months/

also, the said policy of referral removal was 'rumored' at least 2 years before it was announced.....so you better not expect your new 'rumor' to be acted upon in period less than 'years'

The thing president said was dependent upon "formalities" and these formalities included approvals from Govt's side, which has never been in the hands of president. As soon as Govt approved, it was implemented.

As far as the reforms are concerned, I heard a few days back that this is going to be completed very soon. Here very soon may be one month to three months period.

Regards,

<b> MY NEW RUMOR </b>

Mr. Noman
After all these posts you now realize that I am spreading rumors. Where were you up till now?

If you look at the page 2 of this thread you will find that I have reproduced extracts from the different communications of ICAP including newsletters, annual reports, draft minutes of AGM, President's communication.

The AGM 2010 was held on <b>August 10</b> and draft minutes of that meeting exactly say

"The Chairman replied that we have plans to make <b>significant</b> changes relating to education and examination which include development of study packs for students. The Vice President explained that the Examination Committee has come up with lot of recommendations in the last meeting of the Council. The Council has in principle agreed with most of the recommendations. These recommendations are <b>approved</b> by the Council in principle to improve the results without compromising on the quality. <b>The Institute will announce the reforms in education and examination shortly.</b>

By keeping in view that this is the official/formal communication of an Institute, not of a political party

You tell me the types of rumors which I am spreading??
What is the meaning of "shortly" in the above communication??
Does "shortly" mean years?

I just talked the talk. Former President Asad Ali Shah brought about the ideas of industrial training. I discussed it not because I wanted industrial training. I discussed it because it could be introduced. I got confirmation from ICAP about industrial training and I shared it with fellow members.

Every informed person connected with ICAP is predicting that there will be new subjects OR some restructuring in CA program. You should read the President’s Review page of Annual report 2008 to get confirmation about why I said that Corporate Governance and Ethics can be new subject. I gave cross reference in that post.

As far as marks disclosure policy is concerned, I watched youtube video of ICAP in which former President Abdul Rahim Suriya was sharing his plans of marks disclosing policy. This is the reason behind my expectation which I shared with fellow forum members. My personal liking and disliking are irrelevant. What ICAP will introduce is much more important to discuss in a public forum.

I emailed ICAP several times during the previous months and ICAP officials replied that the new reforms will be announced (as distinguished from implemented) soon. That is why I said announcement will be made soon but implementation will take its own time. Latest newsletter is also using the word "soon".

You should consult the dictionary to know what is the meaning of "soon". "Soon" is all about days, not years.

"ICAP's soon" means one to three months (as pointed out by Kamran Bhai) is also very annoying because it is not good choice of words on part of ICAP.

Regards

ViTaL

@VITAl
So will these new subjects be added into current presisting modules or a new module will be introduced for these subjects?

Vital dear....you misunderstood my post.. i was not saying you are spreading rumors and false info...what i meant is that wit icap every thing is to be considered rumor unless announced....thats why i used this term........u can see that i used the term rumor for referral removal policy for the period before its announcement...so by rumour i meant 'unconfirmed report'..

i hope i made myself clear now...i regret any misunderstanding..

and sole purpose of my post was to say that never expect things to happen quickly in icap...or for that matter in pakistan......so u need not to wait too eager or be disappointed....

Dear Noman
I agree with you. We should not expect things to happen quickly in Pakistan. Take Competition law as an example. CCP faced unnecessary long delays to get a permanent legal backing.
But ICAP is a highly esteemed Institute with international affiliation. It is not a Government department or ministry run by a corrupt politician. It should be highly efficient and totally communicative.
The upcoming education and examination reforms are a project of ICAP just like new accounting standards and improvements/amendments are the projects of IASB.

Just like IASB, ICAP received inputs from its members and hold various sessions not only in Pakistan but also abroad.
After long deliberations the reforms got their approval from ICAP Council.

But a lot of things are missing in the whole scenario.

IASB has a proper work plan of their upcoming projects which is continuously updated and regularly communicated even via e-mail alerts. For example, everyone knows there will be a new IFRS on consolidation. The story does not end here. The new IFRS will be published in the 4th quarter of 2010 (IASB does not use the words "soon" and "shortly") with the implementation date well after it. Anyone interested in the new IFRS can get the details by visiting their website.

http//www.ifrs.org/Current+Projects/IASB+Projects/IASB+Work+Plan.htm

On the other hand, ICAP just used the words "new reforms", "soon" and "shortly". The students are the interested parties and major stakeholders of ICAP. They should know what the new reforms are all about. Industrial training is a huge thing. There was President's Communication about its introduction. But there is no Communication about its withdrawal as future plan. Students sent e-mails to get confirmation. This is not a good project management on part of ICAP and this is what makes me disappointed.

ICAP is really a top professional organisation in Pakistan. But there is always a room for improvements.
For example, ICAP newsletters are totally descriptive and contain useful information. I don't think there is any University or organisation in Pakistan with such monthly newsletters. But they should contain information regarding new developments in CA program so that others become able to make informed decisions. ICAP should give a proper time frame at least for announcement rather than using words like "soon".

I regret for harsh wordings in the other post, after all you are my senior.

Regards

Dear Mobeen
This is what I want to know and I tried to get some information. I sent e-mail to a senior manager of ICAP to get confirmation about the introduction of new module. The manager clearly said that there will be no new module. I shared that e-mail in the previous page.
After that I sent them emails to get confirmation about the introduction of new subjects but I got no special response.

ICAP is constantly using the word "reforms". So it is up to you to draw your own conclusions or email them or wait.

The study of Ca is very difficult these have the great and the most complicated subjects. These are of the great demand,.

http//www.hsconsultants.net

Vital

I can understand the points raised by you and feel some of them are very important to focus on. However, I wish to provide some explanation in succeeding paragraphs of this post.

Since I am not a student, I don’t know if President’s communications were/are also directed to students. As far as members are concerned, a thorough debate was undertaken by getting feedback from all members of ICAP and based upon majority’s view the plan for introducing the industrial training was “postponed” for consideration at a later stage, if it would be warranted. This later decision taken pursuant to members’ feedback was also communicated to all members. As I said earlier, I don’t know whether or not the President’s Communications are sent to students. However, if these are sent, the later decision should have also come in the knowledge of students as it was duly announced and communicated to members.

Your comparison of IASB and ICAP is incorrect in my view point. You should compare ICAP with ICAEW, ICAA or CICA, or ICAI etc for the purpose you did. I can point out a number of issues where the decisions at these bodies took the “due” process of time and the words “SOON” and “SHORTLY” have been used. Even these words have been used by some bodies in communication with myself. Bringing reforms in education or training aspects is not an overnight task. You have to streamline a lot of things e.g to do the following

- compare practices with others;
- find the merits and demerits of others’ procedures;
- analyze that what witnessed failure historically and what remained successful;
- analyze what will suit our environment and what will not;
- find out, what can be adopted as it is and what requires alterations;
- analyze, to whom new reforms will be going to affect;
- find, what to do about the students who are already studying under existing set-up and how they can be transformed to the upcoming changes;
- analyze, what would be the impact on upcoming MRAs/MOUs;
- analyze, how such upcoming MRAs/MOUs will affect the already qualified people in post reform implementation scenario

……………….so forth and so on.

So brother, these things are always time taking, are usually open to dialogue at various committees and the council meetings despite that principle decision have been taken; and require a lot of brain storming and concrete efforts.

The reforms which you are expecting are purposed at to develop a baseline for entering into other MRAs in future, since we have to do what makes it easier for us. This does not raise a question on existent quality but on how familiar others are with our procedures and systems and how close we are in our system with others to convince the acceptability. Others don’t find any lucrative interests in 5000plus members when revenues are in focus, so we have to do a lot to enhance the visibility of these 5000plus people by certain reforms and restructurings. Doing this is a very watchful job and has to consume the time that you are witnessing.

We should be more interested in, how efficiently the reforms will be structured and what effects these will bring on profession, instead of worrying for delay of few months.

As far as the question is concerned on what “SOON” means, I recall the incident of first dialogue of Hazrat Moosa A.S. with ALLAH, described by HOLY QURAN. In the very first dialogue Moosa A.S. was told that Qayamat” (i.e. End-of-Times) is coming soonest (or in other words “End of Times” is at the door-step); and this message was repeated in that first dialogue. As a layman I can say that a few thousand years have gone after that dialogue but End-of-Times is still awaited. However, in fact this is not the case. The one meaning of “Soon” or “Soonest” supposedly include the reflection that something is “CRYSTAL CLEAR” or a “REALITY” or has been “DECIDED FOR NO REVISIONS” etc.

I don’t ask you to apply this example to ICAP’s reforms yet produced for your information. However, in my view the word “SOON” used in communications reflects the objectivity, affirmation of the decision and the focused effort being undertaken.

I hope the reforms would bring the desired results and benefits for all the students and profession as a whole.

Regards,

Kamran Bhai,

Only results and admit cards are sent to students. ICAP website is the only source of information.

Yes, there is no comparison between a standard-setting organisation and a professional body of accountants.
I tried to say that ICAP should also communicate the scope of reforms, that is, whether new reforms are limited to changes in syllabus or there will be new subjects. Simple is that. And I still believe communication of time frame (like 4th quarter or first half of the year) is a good presentation and that is why I did that comparison. ICAP members responsible for new reforms indeed know the time frame.

Yes, bringing new reforms is not an overnight task. I never said that ICAP should introduce new reforms as soon as possible. New reforms require strong deliberations which, according to my knowledge, were undertaken by ICAP during the last 12 months and ICAP Council has approved those reforms.

I am not worrying for delay of few months. I am not anxiously waiting for new reforms. I am also interested in what the new reforms will bring for CA profession. Yes, bringing new reforms does not raise questions on the existent quality of CA qualification. It is the need of hour to get MRAs in place with the renowned Institutes of the world.

I hope that new reforms will serve as a stepping stone in ICAP’s efforts of global recognition. (Insha Allah)

Regards

No changes or reforms yet.....

Mudassar

SOON will end very soon

one soon answered with an soon. heheh